Long Distance Cycling - RAAM vs. TDF

RAAM kicked off this weekend. What do you think is the toughest road cycling endurance event: RAAM or Tour de France (or any other road cycling event you may know about).

Taking nothing away from the pro peloton, I think RAAM is tougher; longer distance, less rest time etc.

Any thoughts?

I remember a friend talking of an interview he saw with Lon Haldiman interviewed by Davis(?) Phinney. One of the questions Phinney asked Haldiman was when he was going to do some "real" racing!

Apples to Oranges. If you put Jure Robic in the TdF he would fail miserably - he's way too slow. No telling how a top TdF rider would do in RAAM, because generally speaking they are not crazy :rolleyes:.

They're totally different types of events, so it's really hard to say.

RAAM is much more about non-stop endurance and sleep loss/deprivation. Tactically it's much simpler -- the main concerns are staying consistent, getting enough calories, staying awake, minimizing discomfort and so forth.

GC candidates in the Grand Tours need a wider variety of skills (notably time trials and strong climbs), day-after-day endurance for a much longer period, and have to work well with not only their own teammates but other teams as well.

Pro cyclists are also the creme de la creme and have no other profession than competitive cycling, whereas the majority of RAAM riders are essentially amateurs. In turn, I suspect the RAAM riders probably don't have the same level of support as the pros.

As far as I know Jonathan Boyer is the only person to finish both races. He rode and won RAAM on a bet after trash talking it. He believes TdF is harder, but now fully respects RAAM.

Boyer was a fair pro (12th in '83 Tour de France) and a winning RAAMer (1985 and 2006 - Solo Enduro). Any Grand Tour winner would win RAAM, if they avoided significant injuries.

What kind of bikes are they riding in the RAAM?

Apples to Oranges.

how about le tour ultime (http://www.ltu-letourultime.nl/index.php?lang=en)? that's the "TdF in one stage."

i wonder how the pros would do without a peloton to draft off of - that is one huge difference in these events (i assume).

The fastest time trial riders in the world are pros.

Did they drop the "Solo Enduro" category, by the way?

Is there any media or web coverage of RAAM? I would like to track the progress.

raam blog: http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/subwebraam/blogx.php?N_webcat_id=86&PHPSESSID=cd17136d14893fb7103aba7ec4ef1a1c

they used to have an animated map of the race in more-or-less real time, anyone know what happened to that or have the link? seems like they updated the site recently.

edit: found the live link: http://stats.raceacrossamerica.org/2008/reports/overview.html

surprise, surprise, robic is in the lead!

RAAM riders probably have a lower overall level of crew support than the pros in the TdF. In my eyes that makes RAAM the tougher event.

I've crewed RAAM twice (in 2004 and 2005) and I've seen some riders complete the race on a shoestring budget. RAAM riders have to be a tough breed, both mentally and physically. Randy Van Zee finished in 2004 with a cracked pelvis. That same year Andy Otto had to be helped on and off his bike and there were still over 750 miles left in the race. He finished.

Other tough road races: Furnace Creek 508, BMB and PBP.

Other tough road races: Furnace Creek 508, BMB and PBP.

BMB and PBP are not races... they are tough rides, and BMB (when it was alive) was a RAAM qualifier.

Last year I was on a Sunday training ride near Oceanside, and we wound up riding some of the first 50 miles of the RAAM course, about 15 minutes in front of the lead rider, until we turned around and then all of the solo riders passed us. The first 3 riders look good, the next 5 OK, many of the rest didn't look like they would not make more than 200 miles...if they were lucky. Some of the bikes and riders....you just wondered what they were thinking...

I think that if RAAM was still a race and we were back in the heyday of when PBP was still a race... And those riders came over to do RAAM then I think jorbic and all those riding today would be really suffering.

Is one tougher than the other. Perspective. If you took the pros from TDF and gave them an incentive ($$) and time to train... they would set some really astounding rides on RAAM.

I think RAAM still gives the appearance of being tougher simply because there is not enough money to draw the serious riders.

Several points about the differences in the two also indicate that it is hard to measure which race is actually harder. If we say we are seeking only winning ranks (overall solo RAAM vs Yellow Jersey) then say that the caliber of riders (and numbers and money and such) were to be equal...

Then to actually be a winner... I'd think the guy who won TDF would probably have a tougher go of it than the guy who won RAAM. And probably for the comments made about tactics and timetrials and such... RAAM is more steady riding and who can do that the best is probably going to win. Where the guys in TDF have more "battles for the lead" which appear to be more physically demanding (if cannt sustain then dropped and lost lots of time...


(NOTE: PBP was a race from 189xish to around 1951... It died because the money left for the single day racing format. TDF survived because it changed from the old PBP/RAAM format... Reason: because cities could be the endpoint and draw lots of people staying there and buying from the locals... Not because it was easier on the riders)

how about le tour ultime (http://www.ltu-letourultime.nl/index.php?lang=en)? that's the "TdF in one stage."

i wonder how the pros would do without a peloton to draft off of - that is one huge difference in these events (i assume).


The pros would smoke everyone in RAAM.

Did they drop the "Solo Enduro" category, by the way?

Looks like it wasn't hardcore enough, though that doesn't explain the proliferation of team and 24 hr categories.

Saw an article qouting Outside magazine as ranking the RAAM as the toughest endurance contest in the world. There is a time station in the town I live in and I look forward to cheering the racers on.:)

I think that if RAAM was still a race

<SNIP>

(NOTE: PBP was a race from 189xish to around 1951... It died because the money left for the single day racing format. TDF survived because it changed from the old PBP/RAAM format... Reason: because cities could be the endpoint and draw lots of people staying there and buying from the locals... Not because it was easier on the riders)

I thought RAAM was a race.

First PBP was 1891, last one in '51. The reason PBP was every 10 years in the early years was because the racers complained that training for PBP slowed them down too much to win shorter races.

First TdF was 1903, the first stage race in the world. TdF has always been a commercial enterprise, originally designed to sell newspapers. The publicity caravan began in 1930. Stage towns have paid the TdF to become starts/finishes for decades.

Boyer was a fair pro (12th in '83 Tour de France) and a winning RAAMer (1985 and 2006 - Solo Enduro). Any Grand Tour winner would win RAAM, if they avoided significant injuries.
Except any Grand Tour winner rides a high percentage of the race protected by his team, and gets a decent nights sleep every night.

The pros would smoke everyone in RAAM.
That was Boyer's attitude and he was (and freely admits it) wrong.

I have seen many an always win gifted athlete turn into a huge puddle of useless when faced with extreme sleep deprivation. I believe the average Pro Tour rider would have better luck transitioning to ultra events than RAAM riders to the Pro Tour. But being able to win or finish a Grand Tour doesn't mean winning or finishing RAAM would be guaranteed

The cycling is the TDF (and Giro) is MUCH harder given the mountains they have to ride over. However, the actual "toughness" of the RAAM is probably higher given the lack of sleep (and the fact that the sleep usually occurs on the ground, not in a plush hotel) and the lack of drafting in a peloton.

I think if a TDF rider did the RAAM, their success would depend more on their ability to handle a lack of sleep and manage the poor living/sleep conditions for a week+. But if they could do that, they could be successful in the RAAM. However, I think there are zero RAAM riders who could be successful in the TDF as the speed and climbing would be too much.

BTW, this is completely random but WTF is with Boyer molesting an 11 year old?! And why did he only have to serve 1 year in prison?! How is that fair?

BTW, this is completely random but WTF is with Boyer molesting an 11 year old?! And why did he only have to serve 1 year in prison?! How is that fair?

OT but it would relate to what the judge, knowing all of the available facts and circumstances, thought was the appropriate punishment. Given that any appeal, if one occurred, didn't change the punishment suggests it was reasonable. Without all of the facts, none of us on this board can meaningfully comment.

RAAM is like this sick twisted contest to see who can keep pedal the longest with the fewest amount of sleep.

It's like, if you stuck a bunch of people on trainers and made them pedal for days on end while throwing water, heat, and bird **** in their faces and the last one to pass out wins.

Mike Secrest and Jock Boyer were swapping the lead until the mountains in Virginia, a day or two from the finish. Boyer was even heard to say, "When is that @%^#^ going to rest?" The dense fog/clouds in the Virginia mountains at night got to Secrest, slowing him, giving Boyer too big a gap to close, and the win. I heard that Boyer was one of the first, if not the first, contestant(s) to try liquid foods. He also was reported to have stayed in motels wherever possible instead of in an RV on the road side. The next year the winner, Pete Penseyers, who has won a National title in veterans racing, was chasing the ghost of Boyer, motivated by Boyers' comments. He still holds the RAAM solo speed record. If the two had raced against each other That would have been a race to remember.

Folks, as others have said, we are comparing Apples and Oranges here.

Another apples/oranges indication of how different the two races are is
in the average time needed to win. The TdF overall average for 2600+
miles is right at 25mph. RAAM winners run 14-15mph, with very few
at or above 15mph. Boyer was several mph slower than this on his
winning ride, but he was in the 50+ class at the time. OTOH a look at
what the qualifiers have done in shorter rides suggests that all but a
very few have no trouble at all doing 100mi in under 5hrs and a
significant number can get pretty close to 4hr centuries.

Boyer was several mph slower than this on his
winning ride, but he was in the 50+ class at the time.


Boyer won twice, the first time was 14.31 mph and the record at the time.

Another apples/oranges indication of how different the two races are is
in the average time needed to win. The TdF overall average for 2600+
miles is right at 25mph. RAAM winners run 14-15mph, with very few
at or above 15mph. Boyer was several mph slower than this on his
winning ride, but he was in the 50+ class at the time. OTOH a look at
what the qualifiers have done in shorter rides suggests that all but a
very few have no trouble at all doing 100mi in under 5hrs and a
significant number can get pretty close to 4hr centuries.

but what about drafting? even if you're allowed to draft in RAAM, there's no peloton to sit behind like in TdF.

so if the pro tour riders were out in the wind all day by themselves, it seems there's no way they'd still hold 40 km/h over an entire route. but that doesn't mean jure robic would take the yellow jersey either.

but what about drafting? even if you're allowed to draft in RAAM, there's no peloton to sit behind like in TdF.

so if the pro tour riders were out in the wind all day by themselves, it seems there's no way they'd still hold 40 km/h over an entire route. but that doesn't mean jure robic would take the yellow jersey either.

Refer above, Jock Boyer rode both and won his first RAAM at record speed.

Refer above, Jock Boyer rode both and won his first RAAM at record speed.

I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. Boyer, 30 and in his prime, broke a record set the year before and only in the fourth running of the race. Boyer's record fell the following year (one that still stands 22 years later) to a man in his forties with no pro experience. Further more, non-pro Rob Kish moved Boyer further down the list at an age of 38.

I have no doubt that on a short course Fabian Cancellara would destroy Jure Robic in a TT. On a course that required days of sleep deprivation, I'd put my money on Jure.

RAAM kicked off this weekend. What do you think is the toughest road cycling endurance event: RAAM or Tour de France (or any other road cycling event you may know about).

Taking nothing away from the pro peloton, I think RAAM is tougher; longer distance, less rest time etc.

Any thoughts?

Which is more difficult? To ride at very high intensity for 1-6 hours a day or to ride at a more moderate intensity for up to 22 hours a day or longer. Some riders will ride as much as 50-70 hours without any sleep. Then only take a couple of hours before continuing. I think the RAAM would be way more mentally tough. And by a wide margin. The TDF is probably not the hardest bike race though it is probably the hardest multi-stage road race.

There are a couple of other bike races that more people who enter do not complete than the TDF. However, TDF racers are among the most fit racers in the world. I think the Great Divide Bike Race would be more difficult if the event was more highly organized than the TDF. LaRuta off road race may be the most difficult single day race there is.

I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. Boyer, 30 and in his prime, broke a record set the year before and only in the fourth running of the race. Boyer's record fell the following year (one that still stands 22 years later) to a man in his forties with no pro experience. Further more, non-pro Rob Kish moved Boyer further down the list at an age of 38.


If we are going to play the 'what if' game, let's include all of the factors that make a significant difference.
- Both Penseyres and Kish had much better weather than Boyer did. Penseyres had the best RAAM weather ever AFAIR.
- Boyer came off a normal professional season (including being Davis Phinney's lead-out man at the Giro d'Italia) and did not specifically train for RAAM.
- Boyer had a rookie team, being taken off-route several times. Kish and Penseyres had experienced support teams.
- Boyer was not interested in setting a record, merely in beating the opposition. Once Boyer couldn't be beaten, he eased off. Both Penseyres and Kish were much more focused on average speed.
- Boyer won at his first attempt, unlike Penseyres and Kish.

Boyer was not interested in setting a record, merely in beating the opposition. Once Boyer couldn't be beaten, he eased off.
Just to be clear, I have immense respect for Boyer as a cyclist. But the fact remains he entered RAAM thinking he was going to destroy the competition, yet he was very humble about his victory. He may have eased up after finally passing Michael Secrest for good, but he beat him by only four hours. Also, Secrest's second place also beat the old speed record. And if you will pardon the speculation; had Boyer even had a minor crash, that four hour margin of victory could have easily disappeared.

As for playing the what if game...
Any Grand Tour winner would win RAAM, if they avoided significant injuries. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=6843063&postcount=6)
...the fact remains Boyer is the only man to have ridden both races, so saying categorically any other pro racer would win is the ultimate what if.

If Mike Ditka raced RAAM he would have crushed all records, past and present. And he'd never have let a Texan win so many TDFs.

What do you think is the toughest road cycling endurance event: RAAM or Tour de France (or any other road cycling event you may know about). Obviously, if "physical difficulty" is what you mean by "toughest road cycling endurance event" -- then the TDF is tops. Although, one could begin to argue for the Giro since it has recently "enhanced" it's route.


Any thoughts?
Most of the previously posted comments wrongly focus on whether a rider can compete in or win an event as the measure of difficulty for the event. Clearly most if not all TDF riders can complete RAAM, while none of the known current RAAM riders could complete the TDF However, this observation does little to shed any light on how these riders would perceive these event if and when they did compete in them.

An interesting experiment could involve forcing a group of veteran TDF riders to ride across America at an average pace that requires 300 miles per day. (no-drafting, a competitive RAAM race speed) After completing the 10 day regimen a psychological questionnaire could be used to survey the rider's perception of the 10-day-ride difficulty.

Off hand, I'd suspect the questionnaire results may not be definitive. In other words, each event is harder and or easier in some ways. There's more than speed and distance, when understanding event difficulty.

Has any RAAM competitor tried the approach of riding faster for less time each day. For instance, if you were in TDF fitness and strength category you might be able to ride at 20 mph average for 16 hours a day and still get 8 hours sleep each 24 hour period. This would give you 320 miles per 24 hour period and put you on or near a record setting pace.

The problem as I see it is that few TDF level racers would be willing to punish themselves with this kind of ride.

Has any RAAM competitor tried the approach of riding faster for less time each day.

That was what Boyer planned during his first RAAM but he wasn't travelling that much faster than Secrest and ended up almost with a RAAM-standard approach to riding, although he did sleep in a hotel every night.