Professional Cycling For the Fans - Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

dude this thread's been dead for two and a half months.

It was resurected by somebody posting, "Forsake rightiousness and see the wrath of the Lord!"

Why would you encourage this. There are plenty of recent, active discussions of this topic. One recently about the Wired article which was way too nice to Dick Pound.

If you hae to resurect dead threads, make it the one where Zabriski (sp?) interviews Dick Pound. That is some funny $hit.

There is more going on with the case recently than there has been for months, that's why.

I always presume the French are lying.

Dick Pound has made crude comments regarding a suspected 11-1 testostyrone ratio count of Landis...but Pound has been known and admited he sometimes makes up these numbers...

If it were 11-1 it would be a pretty safe bet that Landis did it after all he did look pretty agro at the end of the stage.... on one hand I have faith in the system and I don't think it's a possible conspiracy because the French a pissed off coz another Yank won their Tour..

So, when is the final arbitration supposed to be decided? I tuned out of this months ago and would like to know when to tune back in.

easier to follow it here http://trustbut.blogspot.com/

OK, folks, where's the firestorm over our presumptive winnner-in-waiting?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/French_Want_Answers_from_Pereiro_over_Tour_Positive_article_106548.html

Nary a peep, huh? Figures.

Yes, because as history clearly demonstrates, it was the Americans who singlehandedly saved Europe. The Russians and Brits played no part in defeating Hitler's forces.

:rolleyes:

Where, exactly, did you take your history lessons???!!!!

:D

THE FLOYD QUESTION:-

I really don't know what the outcome will be. We'll just have to sit it out and
see what happens.

i couldn't care less about the 11:1 ratio; here's two things that are irrefutable:

1. testoterone doping (which aids recovery, btw) does not pass out of the system in <24 hrs. he was clean the next day.

2. his overall testosterone levels were 1/2 normal -- kinda hard to prove doping on that number.

french conspiracy? from a country that makes 120 different kinds of cheese, and eats snails and raw shellfish? ("keesh low-rain" and "froo-ee day mare" AKA quiche lorraine and fruits de mer)

<snip>1. testoterone doping (which aids recovery, btw) does not pass out of the system in <24 hrs. he was clean the next day.Can somebody who knows the rules clarify this? I have heard things like this before.

If your stage 17 urine fails, they don't do the isotope test on any of your others samples, do they?

i couldn't care less about the 11:1 ratio; here's two things that are irrefutable:

1. testoterone doping (which aids recovery, btw) does not pass out of the system in <24 hrs. he was clean the next day.

2. his overall testosterone levels were 1/2 normal -- kinda hard to prove doping on that number.

french conspiracy? from a country that makes 120 different kinds of cheese, and eats snails and raw shellfish? ("keesh low-rain" and "froo-ee day mare" AKA quiche lorraine and fruits de mer)

I've been saying your second statement all along. Let's see if these folks pay more attention to you. Will one use of testosterone really help? I thought you had to use it for a couple of days?

Joe

Dick Pound has made crude comments regarding a suspected 11-1 testostyrone ratio count of Landis...but Pound has been known and admited he sometimes makes up these numbers...

If it were 11-1 it would be a pretty safe bet that Landis did it after all he did look pretty agro at the end of the stage.... on one hand I have faith in the system and I don't think it's a possible conspiracy because the French a pissed off coz another Yank won their Tour..

He said dick pound. :D

According to what I've heard his testosterone levels were not abnomally high. In fact he had reetively low levels. What was out of whack was the ratio of testosterone to another hormone (can't rememberthe name. Something like estrogen). A guy on ESPN said he had abnormally low levels of this other hormone. His ratio was 11:1. Based on what that guy was saying it doesn't sound like doping.

THIS IS THE POINT THAT PEOPLE ARE OVERLOOKING -- BECAUSE THE FRENCH DIDN'T MENTION THAT PART! ALL THEY TALKED ABOUT WAS THE PART THAT MADE AN AMERICAN LOOK BAD; THEY'RE HOT ABOUT THE U.S.A. WINNING 8 TOURS IN A ROW. THEY COULDN'T PROVE ANYTHING ON L.A., SO THEY WENT AFTER 'UNSOPHISTICATED' FLOYD. PARANOID? MAYBE; CYNICAL BELIEF THAT THE FRENCH ARE BACK-BITERS? SURE!! THE FACT IS, FLOYD'S OVERALL TESTO % WAS ABOUT 1/2 NORMAL, SO RATIOS OF SUB-ELEMENTS ARE IRRELEVANT (HEAR THAT, DICK POUND?)

Floyd used to be a goofy Mennonite kid who showed up to his first MTB race wearing black sweat pants. As another Pennsylvanian, I remember when he was kicking ass on the dirt in the 90's.

Floyd is extremely dedicated. He knows how to train extremely well and he's disciplined enough to train relentlessly. Do you really think somebody with that level of self-discipline would risk losing it all by doping? I sure hope he didn't do it.

None of the evidence against Floyd holds up under scrutiny. Neither the technical evidence or the circumstancial evidence. Nor the history of his test results. All points to incompetence at the lab and possible consipiracy. Even the USADA has administrative clowns that think they don't have to answer to anybody or their own policy and proceedures.

We should start a fund for Landis so in case he has to sue the USADA in civil court. We expect the French may play unfair. In fact, we know they do based on how they have handled this whole affair and past problems.

But we would expect the USADA to be fair in dealing with Landis.

TTHEY COULDN'T PROVE ANYTHING ON L.A., SO THEY WENT AFTER 'UNSOPHISTICATED' FLOYD. PARANOID? MAYBE;

Well, if I were betting I'd say the odds are far better that Lance is a doper. Just compare Floyd's vs. Lance's character...

Lance: faced a terminal illness and poured his life into beating it. at all costs. later, applied same singular focus to winning one race. at all costs. to the exclusion of everything else, including his kid and wife, not to mention all of the "other" races that most TdF capos do throughout the year.

Floyd: the dude genuinely enjoys cycling. moved from PA to So Cal in the 90's to focus on MTB racing. did it for awhile, and sorta burned out. broke his hip, got patched up. took up serious road racing as a domestique. rode in ALL the races, supporting his TEAM.

Floyd used to be a goofy Mennonite kid who showed up to his first MTB race wearing black sweat pants. As another Pennsylvanian, I remember when he was kicking ass on the dirt in the 90's.

Floyd is extremely dedicated. He knows how to train extremely well and he's disciplined enough to train relentlessly. Do you really think somebody with that level of self-discipline would risk losing it all by doping? I sure hope he didn't do it.

Yes. In fact it is very much the profile of someone who would dope to win. Your argument holds water only if this was about pot or extacy. It isn't, it is about disciplined use of a drug to win.

Of course that hardly proves that Floyd did dope, just that this is a poor reason to think he didn't.

Yes. In fact it is very much the profile of someone who would dope to win. Your argument holds water only if this was about pot or extacy. It isn't, it is about disciplined use of a drug to win.

Of course that hardly proves that Floyd did dope, just that this is a poor reason to think he didn't.

You're right. I guess you could look at the profile either way. I'm just saying that Floyd's character is better than Lance's. Lance stared death in the eye and decided that the only way to beat it was to focus exclusively on single goals, to the exclusion of everything else. Lance is a deadbeat. He neglected his family and rationalized his me-me-me attitude as an extension of his fight with cancer. Floyd, on the other hand, realizes there's more to life than number one.

We will never know if Lance or Floyd doped but we do know that they passed thier drug tests time and again. So until they have a better testing system we have to assume that they are clean. I am in favor of longitutinal blood profiling testing because this would be harder to fool.

I know the desire to win leads many competitors to dope but if it is the way you make a living and you know that you can be competitive without doping it seems that any sensible person would fear the risk of losing thier freedom to race.

I don't think Floyd will be cleared, here's why:

You are the USADA (or anyone who thinks he's guilty). Mishandling, not following procedures, questionable testing methods does not sway you to at least give FL the benefit of the doubt. So honestly what will it take for him to be cleared at this point:
1) Admission by French lab that they made a mistake or are part of some conspiracy to get Floyd
2) Third party lab vindicating Floyd (actually even this wouldn't clear FL fully methinks)

So optiopn 1) is likely not going to happen and option 2) was kicked out when they opted to have the same questioned lab to the tests on the B samples.

Bottom line FL is not going to win.

Can't think of any other piece of news that would sway that powers that be to think otherwise.

And if it wasn't for the French, Americans might be British. ;)

*runs and hides*

+100!!!

Floyd Landis is as guilty as OJ. Nonetheless, they're both using the same defense tactics - when you don't have a significant defense (as in alibi), you go on the offensive and attack the attackers' evidence against you...Tried and true technique that won't work for Floyd though...

You're right. I guess you could look at the profile either way. I'm just saying that Floyd's character is better than Lance's. Lance stared death in the eye and decided that the only way to beat it was to focus exclusively on single goals, to the exclusion of everything else. Lance is a deadbeat. He neglected his family and rationalized his me-me-me attitude as an extension of his fight with cancer. Floyd, on the other hand, realizes there's more to life than number one.

Any elite professional athlete has a me-me-me attitude. They have to in order to compete. All of those guys have monster egos. If they didn't, they would probably be pushing paper at some desk job.

Does Floyd even have kids? I didn't think he did. In which case, it isn't fair to compare Lance with him since it is a completely different family situation.

I seriously doubt Lance is a deadbeat. He has a ton of money and I'm sure he provides well for his kids.

Floyd is a doper. How does this translate to "realizing there is more to life than number one"? Seems to me he decided being number one was more important than his own health and reputation.

Anyway, I think they both suck. I don't like either of them. But heroes are few and far between in cycling. Actually, I don't think there are any. Dick Pound, maybe. Hah!

There's a difference between neglecting and failing-to-provide-money-to-raise.

Floyd Landis is as guilty as OJ. Nonetheless, they're both using the same defense tactics - when you don't have a significant defense (as in alibi), you go on the offensive and attack the attackers' evidence against you...Tried and true technique that won't work for Floyd though...

It is very plausible that Landis is as guilty as OJ. However, just because he is doping doesn't mean that the authorities get to frame him or be otherwise sloppy in the evidentiary procedures. In a hearing such as the one Landis will most likely face the truth is secondary to what can be proven. There are issues on the table much larger than Landis that this case will severly impact.

The public $$ support of the anti-doping agencies is on the line as is the profitability of pro-cycling. Not to mention the enormous egos and political careers of the officials. Regardless of the outcome of this case international sporting is harmed with cycling suffering the brunt.

On the other hand, I am not convinced that the hearing will actually occur. The fallout of an open hearing for the anti-doping side will be enormous. Having to admit that the system is so flawed as to white out sample numbers (admitted by WADA) and the other administrative mistakes will undermine the credibility of the WADA system. Additionally, addressing the leaks and other weirdness of the case will be embarrassing.

Floyd Landis is as guilty as OJ. Nonetheless, they're both using the same defense tactics - when you don't have a significant defense (as in alibi), you go on the offensive and attack the attackers' evidence against you...Tried and true technique that won't work for Floyd though...

Funny... I never really thought that pointing out someoneelses laxness and erroneous work, especially when you're dealing with scientific data, as not having a significant defense. If Floyd's hearing was held in a timely manner by people with brains larger than a pea, then this would have been a "dismissed" case a long long time ago.

The true crime these days is that the whole trifecta of cr@p (UCI, WADA and then an appeal) takes so long that any pro cyclist may just kiss goodbye several years during the whole process... even before a verdict and a final two year suspension may/may not be handed out.

I heard on the TDF coverage this morning that a decision on Flandis would be made in "5 or 6 days"
I haven't kept up. Anyone know what's happening?

I heard on the TDF coverage this morning that a decision on Flandis would be made in "5 or 6 days"
I haven't kept up. Anyone know what's happening?I came here for the same reason. I'm gonna check the trust but verify site.

They've been saying that for weeks. Just goes along with the whole SNAFU. "Yeah, we'll just string it along and wait for the "right" moment to announce our decision". :rolleyes:

wait, so there is still no decision as of july 16th?

No decision from what I've seen yet.

ESPN Page 2's Jim Caple did an interview with Floyd on the bike recently that had some nice quotes:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/070713


I ask Landis how he responds when people tell him, "I want to believe you, but I just can't because it's so hard these days."

"I'd say, 'OK, fine. Don't believe me,'" he says. "But take a look at this stuff in the lab and tell me you'd like to be subjected to that type of testing. It's fine if you don't believe me, but just admit that they didn't prove that I doped. Nobody should be subjected to crappy work like that. If I did my job like those guys did theirs in the anti-doping agencies, no one would have ever heard of me. If I write down in my training diary that I rode for six hours yesterday to make it look good when I only rode for one, I wouldn't win any f------ races.