Professional Cycling For the Fans - Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

I have to wonder if it's true. Could the alcohol have done it?

I know for a fact that sometimes when I've had a few drinks on a friday night, after a hard work week, I have monster rides saturday morning. I recognize the face Floyd had on after the stage. Sometimes I just feel so.......intense, during and after a ride when I've had a few drinks the night before. It's almost like the alcohol triggers aggresiveness. Would that be because of a testoserone imbalance I wonder, caused by the drinks?

i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses":rolleyes:

>>Just dont be naive about the matter. Its pretty unbelievable that a bloke loses 8mins in the GC then the next day gets 7 min back. Yeah its a great story, it may have happened, but there is nothing wrong with being skeptical, especially in a sport where drug cheating is pretty high<<

Who's being naieve here? Wouldn't a cyclist use a doping method that might HELP him do what Floyd accomplished? Like EPO or blood doping?

One expert after another will tell you that steroid use to that end is really pointless. Look it up.

It doesn't add up. 'B' sample results notwithstanding. Period.

In an interview he conducted over the phone he said his first reaction when he heard about the A sample was to go for a bottle. Does Floyd have a drinking problem?

i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses":rolleyes:


I think there's a more direct effect on inhibition control that explains the behavior moreso than an effect on testosterone.

"Whisky don't make liars, it just makes fools. So I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said."

Did they say that the Testosterone level itself was very high?

Who knows, maybe his Testosterone level was actually normal, but the epitestosterone level very low.

If his liver was busy metabolising the Jack Daniels and Cortisone, maybe it was not metabolising his natural Testosterone in the same way (not enough epitestosterone produced).

Just a guess.

Who's being naieve here? Wouldn't a cyclist use a doping method that might HELP him do what Floyd accomplished? Like EPO or blood doping?

One expert after another will tell you that steroid use to that end is really pointless. Look it up.


Some so called experts wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. Talk to any rider who has used testosterone as a performance enhancer and you will get the true picture.

Some so called experts wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. Talk to any rider who has used testosterone as a performance enhancer and you will get the true picture.

I can only accept this after YOU have explained the actual technical difference between your own arse and elbow. Thanks for that intellectual interlude.

I can only accept this after YOU have explained the actual technical difference between your own arse and elbow. Thanks for that intellectual interlude.

I'll be damned. A post from you that doesn't include the words 'weenie', 'Cannondale' or 'six/13'

The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.

I'll be damned. A post from you that doesn't include the words 'weenie', 'Cannondale' or 'six/13'

Listen you friggin weenie, one more response like that and I'll have to ride over you on my Cannondale Six13. In fact, I'll take steroids to get faster first.

Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.

Then again maybe it is.

:lol:

Post of the day.

Cheers

Wait, if you're in Australia, do I have to ride over you BACKWARDS?

Good show by Cadel Evans and Robbie McEwen this year, eh? Now that McEwen dude, HE may be on steroids, 'roid rage and all : ).

Floyd's getting SCREWED here. BIG time. Again, CYCLISTS DON'T USE STEROIDS like baseball/football players (no real benefit to endurance sports like cycling), AND IT WOULDN'T JUST IMPACT ONE TEST. Experts are all over the place questioning the validity of this test result. What a travesty. And what a PR DISASTER for the Tour and Cycling.


What's happening here is that Football steroid experts are presuming that the reasons and methods for steroid use for bulky athletes don't apply to cyclists, and so presume there's no reason for cyclists to use testosterone. You can be a football steroid expert, but still clueless about cycling cheating, and combined with some patriotic delusion of only guys from other countries cheat, project your hopes for a specific reality to conform to the the little knowledge you have.

If both levels are very low the whole arguement that he took testosterone is moot. If he had taken exogenous testerone his total serum testosterone would be at least well into the normal range. The ratio doesn't hold up if the levels are below the normal range.

Btw - I read they are going to submit the b sample to an isotope test. This test will specifically test for the presence of synthetic testosterone, so it should be pretty definitive. Sorry, didn't re-read the whole thread to see if anyone had posted this already or not, but I'm REALLY looking forward to the results of this test.

What's happening here is that Football steroid experts are presuming that the reasons and methods for steroid use for bulky athletes don't apply to cyclists, and so presume there's no reason for cyclists to use testosterone. You can be a football steroid expert, but still clueless about cycling cheating, and combined with some patriotic delusion of only guys from other countries cheat, project your hopes for a specific reality to conform to the the little knowledge you have.


What's happening here is that cyclists don't use steroids to win the Tour de France. And never really have.

What's happening here is a cyclist chock full of steroids wouldn't pass this test every OTHER day and fail it only after Stage 17.

What's happening here is FAR more damaging to the image and ultimate integrity of the Tour de France and UCI pro cycling than it is to any individual. They SERIOUSLY need to rethink their logic here on how they're pursuing suspected dopers. It has turned into a witch hunt and a debacle for the sport. Read what sports writers are saying about what a joke pro cycling has become. And in my view, largely due to the way the UCI and Tour officials have conducted themselves in light of a vexing issue.

It is to their credit that they're TRYING to get a handle on this, moreso than most big time sports. But they are seriously screwing their own pooch here.

I think its crap how the UCI treated this case. It seems whenever someone gets a positive sample they are already guilty without getting due process.

Even if Landis is cleared of this and hypothetically the alcohol or something else caused it, the guy is going through hell and some will dismiss any form of appeal so his title is tainted no matter what.

It would be one thing if he held the classic signs of EPO, or had a high level of testosterone (which I believe is not the case) and had the classic signs of doping, but this seems more like an anomaly than anything else.

If both levels are very low the whole arguement that he took testosterone is moot. If he had taken exogenous testerone his total serum testosterone would be at least well into the normal range. The ratio doesn't hold up if the levels are below the normal range.
Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.

The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.

I thought 4:1 is normal; 6:1 is positive.

This link to this PubMed abstract summary was posted in another thread:

Effect of ethanol on the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3390919&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum)



Effect of ethanol on the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine.

Falk O, Palonek E, Bjorkhem I.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Huddinge Hospital, Sweden.

The testosterone/epitestosterone weight ratio in urine is used to detect cases of doping when an athlete has treated himself with exogenous testosterone. When this ratio exceeds 6, it is considered evidence of testosterone doping. We show here that intake of ethanol can affect this ratio. Ingestion of 110-160 g of ethanol, about 2 g per kilogram body weight, increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%). In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol.

PMID: 3390919 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.

Just curious...

So what would be the explanation of this ratio on the single day that he road the ride of his life?

Seems like there's a lot of speculation bouncing around trying to explain how this could happen without some sort of doping or other nefarious activity. From what I've heard so far, it seems odd that something like cortisone shot would cause this. Actually that he would had something like that that would only effect that stage.

Btw - I read they are going to submit the b sample to an isotope test. This test will specifically test for the presence of synthetic testosterone, so it should be pretty definitive. Sorry, didn't re-read the whole thread to see if anyone had posted this already or not, but I'm REALLY looking forward to the results of this test.

An Isotopic ratio test would be definitive (unless he used natural testosterone extracted from cadavers :D ).

Just curious...

So what would be the explanation of this ratio on the single day that he road the ride of his life?

Seems like there's a lot of speculation bouncing around trying to explain how this could happen without some sort of doping or other nefarious activity. From what I've heard so far, it seems odd that something like cortisone shot would cause this. Actually that he would had something like that that would only effect that stage.
Couldn't tell you, and that's just speculation anyways. All we have to go on (so far) is the test results. Let's just wait and see what happens.

Did they say that the Testosterone level itself was very high?

Who knows, maybe his Testosterone level was actually normal, but the epitestosterone level very low.

If his liver was busy metabolising the Jack Daniels and Cortisone, maybe it was not metabolising his natural Testosterone in the same way (not enough epitestosterone produced).

Just a guess.

Finally some interesting speculation. I'm also interested in which way a bonk would tend to push things. And of course the already mentioned Testosterone level. If actually normal (as opposed to 'within acceptable limits') it would tend to help Floyd.

Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.



EXACTLY - the test seems bogus. If in fact his testosterone was LOW, where's the performance enhancement? And every media report I've read or heard keeps saying his testosterone was HIGH - so no one understands that they tested for a RATIO. There's two ways to trigger the test result: too high testosterone, or too low epitestosterone. Seems to me only one of those options could conceivably be performance-enhancing.

Since the info "leaked" that someone tested positive, wouldn't it be nice if the rest of the facts regarding the test (actual ratio and levels) were also reported semi-accurately?

i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses":rolleyes:

Definitely something to consider. I'm sort of the same way, I'm certainly no doctor, but I'm pretty confident that I can make a few observations concerning drinking.

Here's a guy who is completely drained, both mentally and physically, after stage 16. Hugely emotional let down. He's obviously not a heavy drinker, and is physically just a small guy at 150 pounds. A couple of beers to start, then at least 4 shots of whiskey on top of that. I'm a confirmed whiskey drinker myself, and as far as I'm concerned, whiskey is the heroin of alcohols. If you want to get away from life in a hurry, which means that if you really want to get f*cked up quick, whiskey is a the way to do it.

Put it all together, the stress, the fatigue, the fact that I doubt he has a high tolerance for alcohol........I bet he was pretty buzzed indeed. When he went to sleep, or passed out, or whatever, I bet his body took over completely, because his mind was pretty much gone.

Then there's the fact that it was Jack he was doing shots of. Again, I'm speaking from experience. There's something a little different about Jack Daniels whiskey. Jack will land you in jail. Some people can drink it with no problem, myself, I won't touch it unless I'm in very mellow state of mind. I'm a Jim Beam drinker mostly, and virtually never have a problem with Beam. But Jack.....gets me into trouble. Seems to trigger the worst in me. (testoserone?)

I have to wonder if his body was turning itself inside out all night, I.E., did the alcohol have a profoundly physiological on him? I'd love to believe it. But I wonder what it would do to all others who have been accused of doping, if it was proven that the alcohol was what did it to Floyd...

Robbie McEwen this year, eh? Now that McEwen dude, HE may be on steroids, 'roid rage and all : ).

Actually, from what I hear he is the most likely to be clean. No, really. All that anger..and clean!!!!

Big roid defense lawyers must be frothing! This will take a long time and a lot of $ to resolve if b samp is pos.

Maybe a little too much Coke with the Jack?

Yeah, but how could alcohol lower Landis' epitestosterone? Isn't that the question now?

Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.

Then again maybe it is.

Source?

Right now ABC is reporting that Floyds Testosterone level was high. I've not seen any news report saying his level was low, just many of the more professional ones mearly reporting that the test that is 'positive' is for the ratios. I've seen nothing even implying the actual level is low. There is only an implication from silence that the testosterone level is not beyond allowable levels. That is not low or even normal.

Source?

Right now ABC is reporting that Floyds Testosterone level was high. I've not seen any news report saying his level was low, just many of the more professional ones mearly reporting that the test that is 'positive' is for the ratios. I've seen nothing even implying the actual level is low. There is only an implication from silence that the testosterone level is not beyond allowable levels. That is not low or even normal.

The WSJ article just refers to the ratio, and doesn't say the level is high or low.

John Eustice reporting for ESPN which is owned by ABC.

Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.
Look deep into yourself. Would you think the same if this was Carlos Sastre?

Look deep into yourself. Would you think the same if this was Carlos Sastre?

Yes. The scenario simply does not make sense. The drug doesn't fit the need. I happen to believe that cyclists and their doctors are some of the smartest and most sophisticated dopers out there. To pull a boneheaded move like using testosterone in such a way that it would not be helpful but would be easily detected would be highly unlikely. For that reason I think its likely that this anomalous result is not one that indicates unacceptable use of steroids.

The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.

First of all, YOU have not seen the actual test results. The French lab illegally gave the test results to the Times of London, but did not send one to you.

The leading expert on testing for these ratios, and for testing whether the ratio is the result of natural biology, or is the result of doping is Don Catlin, the director of the WADA- accredited drug-testing laboratory here in the USA. And, Catlin has termed the premature leaking of a preliminary test result by the French lab as "tragic".

Catlin has said "It's possible to have a T/E ratio of over six and still not have taken testosterone. Further, Catlin is aware that the traditional methods of deriving a T/E ratio are notoriously unreliable. With those methods, figuring out whether the ratio was "natural" or the result of doping would require that a series of four urine samples be taken over a number of days, and then attempting to guestimate from the pattern of results of four days of testing what the person's natural ratio is. That process is complicated by the fact that drinking alcohol, and taking various medication can easily jump someone's ratio from 4:1 on Monday to 12:1 on Tuesday.

Catlin helped develop a better method of testing using a carbon-isotope test. This method is complex and expensive, requiring more expensive lab equipment, and better trained lab staff. IF (and ONLY if) the carbon-isotope test is correctly performed, it is possible to detect that the T/E ratio is the result of doping, rather than natural biological variations.

The fact that the French lab leaked the results to the press BEFORE the "B" sample was testing, BEFORE the three required follow-up samples were taken, and BEFORE Landis was permitted to have his doctors supply information about the medications he is taking (with approval) for his hip and thyroid problems is a gross violation of WADA's own rules, UCI rules, and laws protecting the privacy rights of the persons being tested.

The outrageous misconduct of the French lab caused Catlin to say: "It's...tragic this even got out." Catlin is one of the few people in the world to fully grasp how unreliable that preliminary "A" sample test is, without the three required follow-up samples, and without carbon-isotope ratio testing by a lab that has demonstrated its trustworthness and reliability with that method.

Prediction: when this is all over, in six months, ten months, a year...Landis will own the yellow jersey he was wearing on the podium last Sunday. But, the staff of the French lab will have succeeded in doing what they did to Lance Armstrong last August, with another "leak" of untrustworthy testing information. They will have placed a permanent cloud over the greatest even in the life of Floyd Landis.

Does anyone know what the effect of excessive sustained activity (say like a 3 week stage race) does to ones hormone levels.

I'm wondering because even if his test levels were "normal" and his epitest levels were "very low" I'm not sure that it really means anything other than the levels were abnormal. For example, if under severe stress both test and epitest levels decrease (temporarily until the stress is over) the result would appear to suggest normal epitest behavior and possible doping that spiked the test levels back up to what would be "normal" in a non-stress situation. Then again, maybe some of the medication relating to his hip could have caused a spurious result although similar results might be expected in prior stages or results from prior races...

Just curious...

Does anyone know what the effect of excessive sustained activity (say like a 3 week stage race) does to ones hormone levels.
It is my understanding that whatever direct effect such activity has on testosterone, it also has a proportional effect on epitestosterone, and, so, the T/E ratio should not be affected.

However, in the case of someone with hypothyroidism, what can be affected is the production of SHBG, a protein that testosterone binds with in order to be biologically processed. A hypothyroid condition can lead to a reduction in the production of SHBG, which in turn can lead to a relative excess of testosterone, and, thus, a high T/E ratio.

First of all, YOU have not seen the actual test results. The French lab illegally gave the test results to the Times of London, but did not send one to you.


Dude,
All I did was pass on some information from a credible source that I thought others might find interesting. No need to attack me.

a day after his hugest bonk...of course his body will react differently than if he never
bonked and went so low. much like ketones...if you have a strong ride but still have power
left, you won't have many ketones...but if you bonk hard and push through it, your urine
will have higher amounts. same deal with the endocrine system....going way deep will
change the balance and can make normal things go haywire.

I think he is innocent, and he's just one mean dog on the bike when motivated. he's always
been a killer

This thread is just stupid.

True, but that does little to single it out from many, many others ;)


I can make a full justification for my contribution, based on a genetic predisposition for French bashing....


....I'm English :D


The love hate relationship between folks either side of the English channel has a healthy 900+ year history, after all.

Bonjour,

Ed

It is my understanding that whatever direct effect such activity has on testosterone, it also has a proportional effect on epitestosterone, and, so, the T/E ratio should not be affected.

However, in the case of someone with hypothyroidism, what can be affected is the production of SHBG, a protein that testosterone binds with in order to be biologically processed. A hypothyroid condition can lead to a reduction in the production of SHBG, which in turn can lead to a relative excess of testosterone, and, thus, a high T/E ratio.

Thanks for the info, my question had more to do with "would T/E levels elevate, remain constant, or reduce with heavy physical workload". I was not really concerned about the ratio... If the levels remain constant or go up it is unlikely that he doped as based on what I've read (which of course is always accurate :) ) his test levels were not high. If T/E levels go down then (proportionately) then he would need to explain how the ratio varied. Doping is one possibility and you mention another possibility as well.

Unfortunately, either way cycling as a sport loses.

It's important to point out at this stage that no French rider has tested positive for testosterone...


Of course he tested high for testosterone...My wife would have high testosterone levels compared to the French.

To wit:

>>Tour champion Landis pleads innocence, says testosterone naturally produced
by Chris Wright
July 28, 2006
MADRID (AFP) - America's Tour de France winner Floyd Landis, facing the loss of his title in a doping scandal, insisted again he was innocent.

The 30-year-old rider said that his positive test for testosterone showed up levels which "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism".

Landis said he was in Madrid to consult with his legal team and added he was willing to undergo whatever tests the sport's authorities asked of him to establish his innocence.


"Until such research has been carried out I ask not to be judged and much less to be sentenced by anyone," Landis told a news conference at a Madrid hotel.

"I'd like to make it absolutely clear that I'm not in any doping process," he added.

"I will proceed to undergo all of these tests" to show the levels "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism," he promised.

The American added that he wished to state "categorically that my Tour win was exclusively due to many years of training and dedication" to his sport.

Landis said he was in Spain "for meetings to establish a plan" to respond to the doping allegations and that he and his entourage would "explain to the world why this is not a doping case but a natural occurrence."

Landis, who is facing the sack from his Phonak team if the B sample confirms the first result, passed on medical questions to his lawyer, Jose Maria Buxeda, who is also the lawyer for Spanish racer Roberto Heras, caught doping on the 2005 Tour of Spain.

If he is stripped of his Tour de France title he would be the first ever champion to suffer that fate.

"I came here to tell you my point of view," said Landis, who succeeded compatriot Lance Armstrong on the winners podium.

Armstrong has also repeatedly been questioned over how he managed to come back from life-threatening cancer to land his championship-winning performances but has never tested positive for doping.

"I am proud of the fact that I won the tour because I was the strongest candidate - that's my position," Landis said, adding he would be pushing for the B probe to be carried out as soon as possible at the French laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry.

Landis said Thursday in an interview with US magazine Sports Illustrated that the abnormally high Testosterone/Epitestosteron ratio which showed up after his staggering solo 130km breakaway win in race stage 17 could be due to a thyroid problem or possibly to have occurred naturally.

The day before he had collapsed on the 16th stage and had tumbled down to 11th place overall, 8:08mins behind Spaniard Oscar Pereiro.

The Spaniard, who finished second overall, will be promoted to champion if Landis is kicked out.

In the interview he admitted he "can't be hopeful" of the outcome.

During the Tour Landis was given special dispensation to take cortisone shots for hip pain. He faces surgery on the hip for what is a degenerative condition, while he also took oral medication for hyperthyroid problems.

Landis and his doctor are investigating whether those products, given the green light by organisers, could have altered his testosterone levels.

Insisting he would keep fighting his corner, Landis concluded: "My intention is to compete normally during this year," depending on the outcome of the expected hip operation.<<

Q: How many generations does it take to learn ingratitude?






A: Trois

Finally some interesting speculation. I'm also interested in which way a bonk would tend to push things. And of course the already mentioned Testosterone level. If actually normal (as opposed to 'within acceptable limits') it would tend to help Floyd.

Dehydration pushes the ratio out of balance towards testosterone. He was pretty dehydrated the day before (When he bonked) ... that was why he was dumping all those bottles of water on his head, to prevent a repeat occurance by minimizing sweating.

So... no, he didn't have HIGH levels, it was actually kind of low... what was 'HIGH' was the ratio... so his epitestosterone was really low.

And the media doesn't give a $%&# what they're doing to the sport... they just found some sensational headlines... hell, I had to come on here to find out who won the tour.... but damned if it wasn't all over the news in like 30 seconds that he'd failed the first step of the drug test. Actually the headlines were more like "LANDIS GUILTY OF DRUG USE!!!!!!!!!"


What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?

It's important to point out at this stage that no French rider has tested positive for testosterone...

Good point, as they have no balls.

Of course he tested high for testosterone...My wife would have high testosterone levels compared to the French.

Your wife has a moustache?

Good point, as they have no balls.

Lance is French?