Professional Cycling For the Fans - Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

This just in: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Barry Bonds, Hulk Hogan and Ben Johnson have organized a defense fund for Flandis.

Lance is French?

Lance Who?

Lance Who?

The gay guy.

Once upon a time there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.

One day, the bunny was hopping through the forest, and the snake was slithering through the forest, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down.

"Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."

"It's quite OK," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is much the same as yours. I, too, have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother. Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out what you are, so at least you'll have that going for you."

"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny.

So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're covered with soft fur; you have really long ears; your nose twitches; and you have a soft cottony tail. I'd say that you must be a bunny rabbit."

"Oh, thank you! Thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement. The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me."

So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth and slippery, and you have a forked tongue, no backbone and no balls. I'd say you must be French."

What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?


That law doesnt apply in France. You're actually guilty until proven innocent.

As it well should.

This testosterone test is pointless for a number of reasons:

• Intended to detect anabolic steroids, it's focusing on a drug not widely used by competitive cyclists to cheat. What's the point?

• I've read one expert after another from all kinds of credentials essentially say there is too much potential for high readings from completely natural causes.

Which does beg the question: WHAT are they doing over there? Shouldn't they have RELEVANT doping controls? Not ones riddled with flaws/open to question/ testing for substances that aren't a threat to the GC?

Phil Ligget is in the media talking about this as a witch hunt too. Man, this is going to get ugly. But for pro cycling, the UCI, the Tour organizers et al most of all. It's their friggin bed. Idiots. Let them lie in it.

I'll enjoy watching them twist in Le Wind.

I'm pretty sure Kristin Armstrong does not have balls.
Or would it be politically incorrect to test for that?

Not the worst outcome, considering the fact that revolution notwithstanding, every decent value we have comes from the British, the British gave up slavery before we did and a consolidated British Empire would have favored Britain in WWI and surely decreased the odds of WWII happening or taking as long as it did.
We should send them some cookbooks as a thank you!
Kenal0

What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?

Please.. . this is ONLY in reference to a court of law where one is presumed innocent unless the state can prove that you are guilty.

In any other aspect of life you are not guaranteed presumption of innocence and most of the time you won't get it.

If your employer thinks you stole from him, he will FIRE you. If your wife thinks you are stepping out she can divorce you. If a casino thinks you are a cheat they will THROW you out. You have no presumption of innocence and neither does Floyd unless he enters an American courtroom.

Not saying it is good or fair, but it is life.

I just want this whole thing to disappear.

The question is... do the sponsors and the UCI really want to clean up the sport? Sponsors want to be on the podium for exposure.

Here's an interesting take from VeloNews today. Basically, the more we delve into this, the less we know or can conclude.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10605.0.html

I've read somewhere that Floyd did not actually bonk the day previously but simply "felt like crap the whole day and when things heated up [he] couldn't follow." If he was feeling like crap the previous day for reasons besides his legs (we've all felt like crap before for no good reason), perhaps he got an inadvertent rest day on stage 16; enough to win back the time on stage 17.

FWIW, he didn't win back the time because he was going faster than everyone; he won it back because he went faster than everyone up one or two initial climbs and nobody bothered to chase till the end when it was too late to win back the full 8 or 9 minutes he had on most everyone. He got back to within 30" because of a few teams' strategic errors combined with his bullheadedness in pressing on. Not some superhuman strength. It was a mountain stage with 5 big climbs. Riding in a group isn't going to help you much. By the time people started chasing hard, you'd have to accuse the entire peloton of drug doping if they caught him because they would have expended exactly the same amount of energy Floyd did. Actually, probably more. There's no hiding from gravity like you can from the wind.

It looked spectacular because of the way he motored away from everyone and shed the people who were in the initial break (who weren't GC candidates by any means); but really, Lances team has done the same thing before, just that his team usually does it on the last climb of the day and usually someone bothers to chase. Think of how many times USPS (or Discovery) shattered the peloton at the start of the last climb leaving just Lance and only about 4 others hanging onto his wheel. Now imagine the same thing, the same effort from team and leader, but it is on the first climb of the day and nobody bothers to chase until he is 8 minutes ahead. Now you've got Landis. It wasn't a superhuman feat which hasn't been demonstrated before (think Lance, or Merckx before him); it is a supreme effort by a very good cyclist coupled with piss poor strategy by the other teams. You are not supposed to let the guy get 8 minutes ahead of you. 2 or 3 you can get back on the flats between the mountains. 8 or 9 the guy stays away.

As for the recovery bit and the doctor who said it takes three days to recover from a mountain stage: remember that all these guys climbed the same mountains. Landis only had to perform better than his competitors, all of whom were also tired.

I don't see the test as irrelevant (think sprinters), but it does seem to not consider all the pertinent information. The statements from Dick Pound, and from UCI seem to be less than rational - although it's possible that some journalists quoted them out of context.

The question is... do the sponsors and the UCI really want to clean up the sport? Sponsors want to be on the podium for exposure.

Here's an interesting take from VeloNews today. Basically, the more we delve into this, the less we know or can conclude.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10605.0.html


I really think they do. But I see two trends emerging here:

• They're not particularly competent @ the UCI and the Tour organization in this regard

or
• The anti-American cyclist hostility among traditional Euro cycling fans/organizations has infected the UCI

As usual, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

Either way, what a stinkin' mess.

The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board).

The one thing I don't buy in all of this is the anti-American accusations.

How many Americans were expelled due to UCI Pro Tour agreements the night before the Tour? None.

It's not a nationalistic problem in my mind. That's too convenient.

The leaks of the A sample are the bigger problem. You are correct that incompetence in this matter and others only erodes confidence in the sanctioning body's authority to rule in a fair manner.

That L'Equipe wants to sell more papers with accusations is a media tactic that has gone on much longer than professional sports have been around. That's just bad journalism and should not factor into the real case. It does affect the 'court of public opinion,' though, which is unfortunate.

The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board).

I heard it via ESPN's Mike and Mike show this morning on the drive to work. They had their [ESPN's] analyst on saying the test level was "normal" while epitest was "very low" and that he expected FL to win at CAS in 6 months and he specifically commented that had the test values been high his comments and view / prediction for FL would be different.

I thing this editorial about says it all "Tour de farce"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/5224304.stm

We should send them some cookbooks as a thank you!
Kenal0

I believe McDonalds is already in the UK, so there wouldn't be any need.

What's happening here is a cyclist chock full of steroids wouldn't pass this test every OTHER day and fail it only after Stage 17.


AFAIK, the recipe for cheating with steroids in cycling is to apply a patch to your scrotum after stages to help speed recovery. Letting you use small amounts when you need it, so that you don't step over the red line. You most definitely can pass 100 tests and fail one, if you either screw up, or somehow a reaction with something else happens (alcohool, cortizone, natural rush from winning?)

To answer another question on this page, the expectation for most riders is to have low testosterone levels after a difficult hill climbing day (bonk should be even worse, I'm guessing). That's why they need to top off levels.

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. That is the media screwing the pooch - again. NPR had a thoughtful segment this morning detailing what the test showed (the ratio, not the level) and that it didn't necessarily mean that he doped. On the same program the headlines were, "Tests show that FL had very high levels of T in his blood" [italics mine]. Every other headline I've seen made some reference to high T levels or cheating. Yet neither of those may be inferred from the facts that have come out. But the media doesn't care. It just wants to sell papers.


I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board). Mojo answered that.

The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply that they are not high. (Other than on this board).

ESPN's cycling expert, for one. And at least the Wall St Journal article stressed the test was a ratio (Floyd tested at 11-to-1, the threshold is 4-to-1).

EVERY other media report has it wrong, IMO - ASSUMING a "high ratio" automatically means high testosterone, instead of the other option of super-low epitestosterone.

You know, you can't really take anything that is being reported right now to heart. I heard Floyd's press conference with my own two ears and he specifically said that he didn't want to try to blame alcohol consumption or his Thyroid drugs for the anomoly because he didn't understand the science and it all seemed so absurd. Next thing you know they're reporting that he's trying to blame it on those very things. So, read through it all, take it with a grain of salt and wait, hopefully more patiently than I am.

I have to wonder if it's true. Could the alcohol have done it?

I know for a fact that sometimes when I've had a few drinks on a friday night, after a hard work week, I have monster rides saturday morning. I recognize the face Floyd had on after the stage. Sometimes I just feel so.......intense, during and after a ride when I've had a few drinks the night before. It's almost like the alcohol triggers aggresiveness. Would that be because of a testoserone imbalance I wonder, caused by the drinks?


I've seen that many times myself. Almost feel like my dirty little secret is crawling out of the bag! I've done MANY rides in Vegas while visiting after stumbling back to my room the night before. Seems those are always my best rides (as long as I get enough sleep). My riding buddies usually head off to the buffet while I just head off to the bar. My studies have been anything but scientific, but I would say that alternating Newcastle with Jack through the night has provided rocket fuel for me the next day....

AFAIK, the recipe for cheating with steroids in cycling is to apply a patch to your scrotum after stages to help speed recovery. Letting you use small amounts when you need it, so that you don't step over the red line. You most definitely can pass 100 tests and fail one, if you either screw up, or somehow a reaction with something else happens (alcohool, cortizone, natural rush from winning?)

To answer another question on this page, the expectation for most riders is to have low testosterone levels after a difficult hill climbing day (bonk should be even worse, I'm guessing). That's why they need to top off levels.

Testosterone is a hormone. I don't think you can "run out" of it. It's not a nutrient like sodium or suger.

The patch is about elevating testosterone levels to higher than normal to stimulate the body to repair itself faster. Not to "top off" a low testosterone level.

Floyd Landis said "the high testosterone levels that caused him to fail a drug test at the Tour de France are the result of his natural metabolism -- not doping of any kind -- and he will undergo tests to prove it.
to accredit that the levels that I've had during the Tour and all my career are natural and produced by my own organism" .
ESPN- front page for reference.


Shouldnt this have shown up earlier in his previous tests in any race?
Then all this hoopla would be moot and everyone can go back to wishing they guy well

i can see it now, were gonna have the entire peleton completly **** housed...their bottles filled with screwdiver's and gin 'n' tonics...you'll have beer tears half way up the alpe de huez, and riders telling each other how much they love one another on the decents...it'll be just like my weekends!

i can see it now, were gonna have the entire peleton completly **** housed...their bottles filled with screwdiver's and gin 'n' tonics...you'll have beer tears half way up the alpe de huez, and riders telling each other how much they love one another on the decents...it'll be just like my weekends!

You need serious help:D :D :D
Just kidding.:D

i can see it now, were gonna have the entire peleton completly **** housed...their bottles filled with screwdiver's and gin 'n' tonics...you'll have beer tears half way up the alpe de huez, and riders telling each other how much they love one another on the decents...it'll be just like my weekends!

hmmm. umbrella drinks for the sprinters? single malt or whiskey for the climbers?
virgin drinks or bud for the white jersey?

then we'll have guys doing o'douls - they want to race "clean"

If you test for drugs for 4 wks and only show up positive on one occasions, I think the proof will show that it was french sabatoge...those euro's need to cut this out\\

As far I'm concerned Landis has shown to me that he is the REAL TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPION


This French conspiracy idiocy makes me emabarrassed that the people spouting it are americans.

As it well should.

This testosterone test is pointless for a number of reasons:

• Intended to detect anabolic steroids, it's focusing on a drug not widely used by competitive cyclists to cheat. What's the point?

• I've read one expert after another from all kinds of credentials essentially say there is too much potential for high readings from completely natural causes.

Which does beg the question: WHAT are they doing over there? Shouldn't they have RELEVANT doping controls? Not ones riddled with flaws/open to question/ testing for substances that aren't a threat to the GC?

Phil Ligget is in the media talking about this as a witch hunt too. Man, this is going to get ugly. But for pro cycling, the UCI, the Tour organizers et al most of all. It's their friggin bed. Idiots. Let them lie in it.

I'll enjoy watching them twist in Le Wind.

jesus you people won't let a cheater be a cheater will you? HOW DO YOU KNOW it's not a drug used widely by competitive cyclists? Are you a doper in the pro-tour? Do you have any first hand information that cyclists don't use testosterone? Floyd has tested positive for it! But that's not proof enough for you. The UCI full of medical doctors seems to think it's an important test and I think they have a reason for that. The problem with "experts in the field" is that if people are smart enough and they have credentials, they can apply doubt to any test. Look at Tyler and his lawyers and his experts. On and on blah blah blah "chimera" bs. He's a ****ing doper. Stop being so naive. I don't know how many years this test has been in affect but look at the last 5 years of the tour, the giro, and vualta. Lets say there are a combined 600 riders in these events in one year, then lets multiply that over 5 years. This is the first positive test of testerone I've heard of in that span, in those events. So this leads me to believe that the test is a quality test and does not have "potential for high readings from completely natural causes." Oh and what a coincedence that Floyd tested positive, the only one in the last 10,000 tests that have been performed. He tested positive after the most amazing tour come back i've seen in years. But hey, the test is faulty. he couldn't have possibly doped. The test is flawed! He's a stand-up guy!

Someone said they test daily...True?

Do they take samples from riders before and after races or just after? Seems like taking 2 sets of samples would be useful in indicating whether the stress associated with the exertion of the stage caused imbalances.

Give it a rest with all this French conspiracy crap. I know this is an “internet” forum, but let’s all have some common sense. I personally hope that Floyd can prove that his T/E ratio is normally elevated. But the fact remains that Floyd failed a test. His testosterone ration (T/E) is higher than allowed by the binding authority for international cycling. All riders are bound by the same rules and he failed. He will have a chance to defend himself at the court of arbitration – just like any other cyclist who has ever failed a test.

How exactly is this a conspiracy?

jesus you people won't let a cheater be a cheater will you? HOW DO YOU KNOW it's not a drug used widely by competitive cyclists? Are you a doper in the pro-tour? Do you have any first hand information that cyclists don't use testosterone? Floyd has tested positive for it! But that's not proof enough for you. The UCI full of medical doctors seems to think it's an important test and I think they have a reason for that. The problem with "experts in the field" is that if people are smart enough and they have credentials, they can apply doubt to any test. Look at Tyler and his lawyers and his experts. On and on blah blah blah "chimera" bs. He's a ****ing doper. Stop being so naive. I don't know how many years this test has been in affect but look at the last 5 years of the tour, the giro, and vualta. Lets say there are a combined 600 riders in these events in one year, then lets multiply that over 5 years. This is the first positive test of testerone I've heard of in that span, in those events. So this leads me to believe that the test is a quality test and does not have "potential for high readings from completely natural causes." Oh and what a coincedence that Floyd tested positive, the only one in the last 10,000 tests that have been performed. He tested positive after the most amazing tour come back i've seen in years. But hey, the test is faulty. he couldn't have possibly doped. The test is flawed! He's a stand-up guy!

He doesn't have a high level of testosterone, he has a high ratio compared to another hormone. Its not that he has alot of testosterone in the body but has very little of the other one (forget the name of the hormone) the ratio test is used to compare levels of testosterone and the ratio is used as a tool to verify that high levels of testosterone are not natural. This in fact is not the case.

I could understand if he had the classics signs of EPO, or people were giving a valid explaination why someone would have this type of ratio (i.e. normal t very low e), but everyone is scratching thier head as to what benefits this would have on a cyclist.

They're just repeating what Karl Rove told Fox News to tell them to say.

I hear you ;)

I live in the US and most of the people I know and work with are the nicest people you would ever want to meet. However, when traveling to some of the “red” states I am amazed at the level of ignorance and lack of understanding of the world outside of the US. I wonder if people realize why there is a big park near the White House named after a French guy “Lafayette”???

You do not have a positive test until you have a positive B sample.
It is reported that Landis tested positive. That is not correct.
If the A is positive and the B is negative...you have a negative test.
How did this info become public before the B sample has been tested. This is highly unethical behavior by the Tour organization, lab, etc. The results should not be released until after B sample is tested.
Now let us assume that the B is negative...hypothetically, then Floyd is cleared. But he will now always have that cloud hanging over him. Not fair.

I'm not sure I trust the due process that Floyd is getting. What if a French rider had won the Tour this year, fist time in like 22 years, and the French rider tested positive for abnormal test. ratios, are we to believe that the results would have ever been revealed? Surely the French would have swept it all under a rug.

I'm sure Lance has been in touch with Floyd, and I'm sure Lance has put him in contact with all the right people to help. Lance knows the French witch hunts better than anyone. I'm sure Lance is as angry as anyone. Perhaps this is some kind of conspiracy to hit back at Lance, and America's domination of the Tour. Let's get rid of all the top riders(Lance, Basso, Ullrich, Landis, etc.) and maybe the French will be competitive again.

The Italians almost always win the Giro, the Spanish almost always win the Vuelta, and the French never win the Tour...or anything else. Is this the root of the situation?

seems like if they're going to use this test, and if people's levels vary so much, then all pro riders should have an out of competition test done to establish there normal testosterone ratios and then compare it to that.

And maybe the Iroquois?

Wrong sport, that would be lacrosse.

And if yesterday was today it would be tomorrow.. next week should think about that.

You do not have a positive test until you have a positive B sample.
It is reported that Landis tested positive. That is not correct.
If the A is positive and the B is negative...you have a negative test.
How did this info become public before the B sample has been tested. This is highly unethical behavior by the Tour organization, lab, etc. The results should not be released until after B sample is tested.
Now let us assume that the B is negative...hypothetically, then Floyd is cleared. But he will now always have that cloud hanging over him. Not fair.

I'm not sure I trust the due process that Floyd is getting. What if a French rider had won the Tour this year, fist time in like 22 years, and the French rider tested positive for abnormal test. ratios, are we to believe that the results would have ever been revealed? Surely the French would have swept it all under a rug.

I'm sure Lance has been in touch with Floyd, and I'm sure Lance has put him in contact with all the right people to help. Lance knows the French witch hunts better than anyone. I'm sure Lance is as angry as anyone. Perhaps this is some kind of conspiracy to hit back at Lance, and America's domination of the Tour. Let's get rid of all the top riders(Lance, Basso, Ullrich, Landis, etc.) and maybe the French will be competitive again.

The Italians almost always win the Giro, the Spanish almost always win the Vuelta, and the French never win the Tour...or anything else. Is this the root of the situation?

This is just not true. The rider is informed of a failed test after the A sample. They can then:

- Choose to have the B sample test
- Choose to witness the test of the B sample
- Admit their guilt

The B test is practically a formality. This will all really play out in the court of arbitration where Floyd will have a chance to prove that his T/E ratio was from natural causes.

Have a read here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2531798


Give the whole French conspiracy thing a rest. Tons of cyclists have been suspended over the past 20 years from all nationalities. I am so tired of reading how the French are out to get the US cyclists. I personally hope Floyd did not dope. But I am not about to blindly go and blame a whole nation out of stupid bigotry.

I hear you ;)

I live in the US and most of the people I know and work with are the nicest people you would ever want to meet. However, when traveling to some of the “red” states I am amazed at the level of ignorance and lack of understanding of the world outside of the US. I wonder if people realize why there is a big park near the White House named after a French guy “Lafayette”???
That is idiotic. Most Americans (Red State or not) have no friggin' clue there is a park near the White House period.

Wouldn't bone definitively show evidence of performance enhancing drug use? Things remain in bone longer than they remain in blood. If Floyd is clean he should get his hip replaced immediately and have the bone sent to independent labs for testing.

White House?

And if yesterday was today it would be tomorrow.. next week should think about that.
Wrong thread, this needs to be in the Chewbacca defense thread.

White House?
Casa Blanca...

Casa Blanca...

Frankly, my dear...

...When Basso and Ulrich wre banned the day before the tour it must have been a conspiracy against the Germans and Italians. Please...

Don't you get it? It's against anyone who isn't French.

Don't you get it? It's against anyone who isn't French.

Please tell me you were being sarcastic :eek:

You are correct about the steroid action. Steroids need to be administered over a period of time and there is not only no benefit from a short term exposure, it actually challenges the liver and kidneys during application. That is certainly not something that he would logically do during a tour. The thing is that he has been tested a gazillion times by the time he gets into the tour and no one has come forward to say that his ratio is normally above 1:1.