Professional Cycling For the Fans - Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

I'm not sure about Landis but before you throw out the winner of your biggest sporting event I would really want to follow protocol. If nothing else then to look like the good guy no matter what happens in the end.

+1 Well said.

If his testosterone ratio is so naturally high, why can't he grow a respectable goatee?

If his testosterone ratio is so naturally high, why can't he grow a respectable goatee?



Nicely Stated!!!

According to ESPN Landis made the request: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2535480.

Why did he wait until Monday and not request it last week?

Indeed. His spokesman says it was well within the time deadline... but Landis himself stated he'd ask for it last Friday. He knew about it Wednesday. And had until Wednesday to make the demand. He's also back in the USA now. There are details about the B-Sample. The rider can be at the opening of the sample or have his representative be there. Landis' lawyer in Madrid said that Landis would be there if it worked in his schedule. I believe those details needed to be worked out as a part of the request, or so Landis had intimated at some point in the past few days.

At least it looks like the lab will get to it this week. I wonder if he had hoped for the lab not to be able to do it before it closes for August vacation? Having a little time to let all of the media circus die down might have been a good thing from his perspective.

The Simply Stu podcast has just casted an interview with Floyd's physiologist, Allen Lim. I'll listen now, should be interesting.

http://www.simplystu.org/

Tests performed on Floyd Landis’s initial urine sample showed that some of the testosterone in Landis’s body came from an external source and was not naturally produced by his own system, according to a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results.

From the New York Times... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/sports/othersports/31cnd-landis.html?hp&ex=1154404800&en=07a1b9cc5210daa3&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Anybody know if its possible to place a bet on whether Landis ends up being found to have doped and has his title stripped? And if so what are the odds? I'm thinking overseas betting would run heavy in favor of positive, and some of you guys like Iluvfreebeer could get some very attractive odds, from your point of view.


Wonder if Eddy Merckxx would jump all over that action....

This lab needs to change it's name to faucet with all the freaking "leaks."

This lab needs to change it's name to faucet with all the freaking "leaks.

I hear you!

Isn't anyone in the UCI or this lab even trying to respect the confidentiality of an accused athlete until the results are officially confirmed?

Floyd may well be guilty but the UCI's seeming refusal to even respect their own established procedure is very poor and doesn't exactly make McQuaid and the boys look like moral paragons, IMO.

I've got to say the USADA looks alot better with their handling of Gatlin, a much bigger fish than Landis, who is heading towards a lifetime ban.

Why did he wait until Monday and not request it last week?

Delay tactic pure and simple. Delay, obfuscate, point fingers, etc. . .

As much as I want him to be innocent, this kind of stuff makes him look guilty. He knew since last Wed that the A test was positive and, IMO, if he were truly innocent would have asked for the B sample asap, if nothing else to move along the process. Delaying makes no sense if he is innocent, IMO.

I've got to say the USADA looks alot better with their handling of Gatlin, a much bigger fish than Landis, who is heading towards a lifetime ban.

No way. Gatlin's positive result was from a meet in APRIL. Three weeks later he's tying the world record... they can't get the A-test and B-Test done in time to prevent him from making a mockery of the idea of a world record. UCI's on the right track now. Test, Confirm, Release or Punish. And do it in a timely fashion.

Delay tactic pure and simple. Delay, obfuscate, point fingers, etc. . .

As much as I want him to be innocent, this kind of stuff makes him look guilty. He knew since last Wed that the A test was positive and, IMO, if he were truly innocent would have asked for the B sample asap, if nothing else to move along the process. Delaying makes no sense if he is innocent, IMO.

his time frame does not make him look guilty, it makes him look smart. Before he makes a single move, I am sure he needs to get it cleared from Phonak, his doctors, his lawyers... His livelyhood, life and dreams are on the line. Only an idiot would rush off into the abyss. Friday he states he was sending a fax to the USA federaiton in colorado.. then the weekend, now the request on monday. sounds like a normal business, not a delay tactic. Maybe he has to make travel/witness, delegated representative arrangements as part of the request. Maybe those ducks needed to be put in a row before the formal request.

All in all, he may be guilty. But his actions (besides possibly putting dope in body) do not point to guilt.

Delay tactic pure and simple. Delay, obfuscate, point fingers, etc. . .

As much as I want him to be innocent, this kind of stuff makes him look guilty. He knew since last Wed that the A test was positive and, IMO, if he were truly innocent would have asked for the B sample asap, if nothing else to move along the process. Delaying makes no sense if he is innocent, IMO.

Maybe if he delays long enough (past the French August vacation) he can get that hip operation done under his Phonak health insurance.

Testosterone from a foreign source?

You mean he used FRENCH testosterone?!!>!
Impossible!

The LOCAL news at 11:00 just reported that a New York Times article is being published that indicates the test is indicating testosterone from a foreign (exogenous) source. I'll see if I can find it...

edit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/sports/othersports/31cnd-landis.html?hp&ex=1154404800&en=07a1b9cc5210daa3&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Posted above this already... :D

Note that if the A sample is confirmed by the counter-analysis, Mr. Landis will have to explain how the testosterone got in him. Since he's already asserted that his body produces a lot of the stuff anyway, if he starts to talk about being slipped the stuff, or having found that a supplement he was taking had it... well it will look pretty desperate. He cried wolf in Madrid.

Only an idiot would rush off into the abyss.

I don't know, if I were innocent, I would call them up, book a flight, and try to have the test done - with me standing there - the next day.

I don't know, if I were innocent, I would call them up, book a flight, and try to have the test done - with me standing there - the next day.

If I were innocent I would follow the same procedure a guilty person would. Hypothetically, if you failed a piss test for something you never used, and had no clue how it got in your system you are already guilty in a court of opinion.

We had a guy who popped on a piss test in the Marine Corps. He got kicked out and did not pass go. The whole case didn't make sense, he was a hardcore Christian, just promoted to Corporal, and was out in the field on training for weeks and just did not have the character to do something like that.

I'm not applying this guys' character to Floyd's. I'm just stated that innocent people get screwed all the time and you should assume your actions or character are going to change that.

If I were innocent I would follow the same procedure a guilty person would. Hypothetically, if you failed a piss test for something you never used, and had no clue how it got in your system you are already guilty in a court of opinion.

We had a guy who popped on a piss test in the Marine Corps. He got kicked out and did not pass go. The whole case didn't make sense, he was a hardcore Christian, just promoted to Corporal, and was out in the field on training for weeks and just did not have the character to do something like that.

I'm not applying this guys' character to Floyd's. I'm just stated that innocent people get screwed all the time and you should assume your actions or character are going to change that.

True, but as you wrote, "you are already guilty in a court of opinion"... delaying and stalling on requesting the counter-analysis doesn't improve your chances in that court. For many of us, the counter-analysis is the threshold of guilt or innocence. If it comes back negative, he's off, in my book. If it comes back positive, the burden of proof shifts to him to prove exactly why he tested positive if he wasn't juicing.

From an article in L'Equipe, dated August 1:
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060801_095419Dev.html


Cet échantillon devrait être analysé par le laboratoire de Châtenay-Malabry à partir de jeudi et jusqu'à samedi mais, pour l'instant, le laboratoire n'a pas reçu la demande du coureur.

This sample should be analaysed by the Châtenay-Malabry LNDD lab, between Thursday and Saturday, for the time being, the laboratory has not received the request from the racer.

:)
Maybe if he delays long enough (past the French August vacation) he can get that hip operation done under his Phonak health insurance.

Ha! This makes the most sense of anything I have read since the A sample came out. . .:)

I don't think his actions make him look guilty. If I were in that situation I'd be checking with lawyers etc. to make sure I get everything done the proper way. If that means delaying but still getting the request in on time, so be it.

If this comes down to supplements, I hope he says something like "I didn't intend to use the drugs, but they were apparently in the supplements I was taking. As such, I think it appropriate to admit guilt to doping, relenquish my TDF title and accept my two year suspension." However, it will never happen.

I don't think his actions make him look guilty. If I were in that situation I'd be checking with lawyers etc. to make sure I get everything done the proper way. If that means delaying but still getting the request in on time, so be it.

If this comes down to supplements, I hope he says something like "I didn't intend to use the drugs, but they were apparently in the supplements I was taking. As such, I think it appropriate to admit guilt to doping, relenquish my TDF title and accept my two year suspension." However, it will never happen.

I think if Sample B is positive for non-human testo, he and his lawyers will follow the typical defenses which will really hurt cycling:
1. The test is flawed (funny, no complaints until people get caught)
2. It is the supplements or "lotions". . .something that someone must have given me, I didn't know
3. He says, oddly, "I am not in any doping process" which in my now cynical view, is a way for him to allow for the testo but deny he was involved in a 'process' of doping to enhance his performance.
4. Disappearing twin . . .not really as ANOTHER Phonak rider already claimed that excuse

Ok, now that the NYT TImes has reported the Carbon Isotope Test, attribituing the information to a UCI source, and not quoting L'Equipe, doesn't "the lying french press made up the isotope test" argument look a little silly.

Ok, now that the NYT TImes has reported the Carbon Isotope Test, attribituing the information to a UCI source, and not quoting L'Equipe, doesn't "the lying french press made up the isotope test" argument look a little silly.

No. An unethical lab and paper reporting things should always be taken with skepticism, even if it turns out that their report was true.

No. An unethical lab and paper reporting things should always be taken with skepticism, even if it turns out that their report was true.

The lab itself is not unethical if one employee leaks something. There is no proof that their testing isn't done guided by the highest scientific principles.

No. An unethical lab and paper reporting things should always be taken with skepticism, even if it turns out that their report was true.

The guy who is responsible for developing the isotope test stated that its standard WADA protocol to do the isotope test, and that it was a very safe assumption it had been done before the A sample results were reported.

I fully understand you can't believe everything you read. However, if something is a black and white, verifiable, fact, it doesn't make it less of a fact because its written in a questionable source. If the National Enquirer printed the sky is blue, I'd tend to believe it.

People seem to have a lot of questions about the IRMS test, as if it were secretly done, without Landis' knowledge... NO. The IRMS test is standard WADA protocol for testosterone analysis where the T:E ratio is above limits. In other words it is ROUTINE. Here's the document that so states:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/end_steroids_aug_04.pdf


It is recommended that a urine Sample in which any one of the following criteria is met during the Screening Procedure, be routinely submitted to the IRMS analysis:

i) T/E value equal or greater than 4;
ii) concentration of testosterone or epitestosterone (equivalent to the glucuronide) greater than 200 ng/mL1;
iii) concentration of androsterone or etiocholanolone (equivalent to the glucuronide) greater than 10,000 ng/mL1;
iv) concentration of DHEA (equivalent to the glucuronide) greater than 100 ng/mL1.

It is recognised that other parameters may justify a need for IRMS study and the reason should be documented.

Any result that will be used to support an Adverse Analytical Finding shall be confirmed and quantified.

The guy who is responsible for developing the isotope test stated that its standard WADA protocol to do the isotope test, and that it was a very safe assumption it had been done before the A sample results were reported.

I fully understand you can't believe everything you read. However, if something is a black and white, verifiable, fact, it doesn't make it less of a fact because its written in a questionable source. If the National Enquirer printed the sky is blue, I'd tend to believe it.

Yes, but the test isn't quite black and white. The result is definately Positive or Negative, but was the test done correctly? Any lab that allows leaks such as this clearly violates protocol. To me, that brings into question their procedures. If their procedures are in question....

Thats my point. I think its LIKELY that the information is true. I just think there is enough suspicion for me to not make a final conclusion based upon preliminary reporting in a highly biased paper from a lab of questionable quality.

Could someone explain to me how testosterone would help during a bike race?

I can understand how EPO, Oxygenating blood, pain-killers or Stimulants could help - but Testosterone?

Would using this before a race as a one-off thing do any good?

Ok, so the positive result to the carbon isotope test looks bad. What I don't understand is, if he was taking testosterone, why didn't he test positive in other tests. Let's say that, after stage 16, he decided to put on a testosterone patch in an attempt to aid his recovery. So, he's got testosterone in his body and tests positive after stage 17. Wouldn't there still be traces of external/artificial testosterone left that would show up in the tests done after stage 19 and stage 20? I'm not a scientist but can't imagine testosterone's half life is that short and/or that the test isn't sensitive enough to detect really low levels.

Anyone have knowledge on this?

Thanks,

Hoff

Yes, but the test isn't quite black and white. The result is definately Positive or Negative, but was the test done correctly? Any lab that allows leaks such as this clearly violates protocol. To me, that brings into question their procedures. If their procedures are in question....

Thats my point. I think its LIKELY that the information is true. I just think there is enough suspicion for me to not make a final conclusion based upon preliminary reporting in a highly biased paper from a lab of questionable quality.

You're sounding like a doping apologist. Whether or not a laboratory has an employee that leaks a piece of information has NOTHING to do with whether or not they have the scientific chops to adminsiter this test correctly.

Ok, so the positive result to the carbon isotope test looks bad. What I don't understand is, if he was taking testosterone, why didn't he test positive in other tests. Let's say that, after stage 16, he decided to put on a testosterone patch in an attempt to aid his recovery. So, he's got testosterone in his body and tests positive after stage 17. Wouldn't there still be traces of external/artificial testosterone left that would show up in the tests done after stage 19 and stage 20? I'm not a scientist but can't imagine testosterone's half life is that short and/or that the test isn't sensitive enough to detect really low levels.

Anyone have knowledge on this?

Thanks,

Hoff

http://www.steroid.com/halflife.php (a questionable source, but they cite studies that look reasonable)

The half life varies depending on the drug taken, but its pretty short. The tests probably could detect it, but if the T/E ratio test is within normal range its not tested. I'm not sure if they can go back and test the A/B samples from other days to try to detect synthetic steroids or not.

Albany, it has been suggested that testosterone could help the cyclist recover during the race. I have heard it used in training to aid recovery, so I assume it would work during a race also, but you have to be careful not to blow the levels or you could get yourself into trouble....

Ok, so the positive result to the carbon isotope test looks bad. What I don't understand is, if he was taking testosterone, why didn't he test positive in other tests. Let's say that, after stage 16, he decided to put on a testosterone patch in an attempt to aid his recovery. So, he's got testosterone in his body and tests positive after stage 17. Wouldn't there still be traces of external/artificial testosterone left that would show up in the tests done after stage 19 and stage 20? I'm not a scientist but can't imagine testosterone's half life is that short and/or that the test isn't sensitive enough to detect really low levels.

Anyone have knowledge on this?

Thanks,

Hoff

Perhaps they will do the IRMS on those samples as well. They do have to look at at least three other tests from the same rider if they have them, for T:E ratio. My guess is they'll do the IRMS as well. They will want to have all the i's dotted in this case. But tha's conjecture

You're sounding like a doping apologist. Whether or not a laboratory has an employee that leaks a piece of information has NOTHING to do with whether or not they have the scientific chops to adminsiter this test correctly.

A doping apologist would never say "I think its LIKELY that the information is true." I also disagree with you. If someone is unethical enough to violate standards in one place I think they might do it somewhere else. No where do I ever say "Its not true, he couldn't have tested positive it MUST be the lab." I'm just saying the lab is not some holy shrine of innocence, and I'm not going to use any unofficial announcements of results to decide someone is guilty. I'll wait for the official results. As of now, I agree though, it doesn't look good for Flandis.

Perhaps they will do the IRMS on those samples as well. They do have to look at at least three other tests from the same rider if they have them, for T:E ratio. My guess is they'll do the IRMS as well. They will want to have all the i's dotted in this case. But tha's conjecture

I agree...if I were Floyd and truly innocent, I'd ask for the IRMS test to be done on them to provie it.

Ok, so the positive result to the carbon isotope test looks bad. What I don't understand is, if he was taking testosterone, why didn't he test positive in other tests. Let's say that, after stage 16, he decided to put on a testosterone patch in an attempt to aid his recovery. So, he's got testosterone in his body and tests positive after stage 17. Wouldn't there still be traces of external/artificial testosterone left that would show up in the tests done after stage 19 and stage 20? I'm not a scientist but can't imagine testosterone's half life is that short and/or that the test isn't sensitive enough to detect really low levels.


I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but it may answer your question.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16438998&dopt=Abstract

Screening urine for exogenous testosterone by isotope ratio mass spectrometric analysis of one pregnanediol and two androstanediols.

Aguilera R, Catlin DH, Becchi M, Phillips A, Wang C, Swerdloff RS, Pope HG, Hatton CK.

Laboratoire Suisse d'Analyse du Dopage, Institut Universitaire de Medecine Legale, Lausanne, Switzerland.

The metabolic effect of multiple oral testosterone undecanoate (TU) doses over 4 weeks was assessed in seven voluntary men. The protocol was designed to detect accumulation of the substance by choosing the appropriate spot urines collections time and to study the urinary clearance of the substance after weeks of treatment. Urines were analysed by a new GC/C/isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS) method to establish the delta(13)C-values of testosterone metabolites (androsterone and etiocholanolone) together with an endogenous reference compound (16(5alpha)-androsten-3alpha-ol). The significant differences in inter-individual metabolism following TU intake was illustrated by large variations in delta(13)C-values of both T metabolites (maximum Deltadelta(13)C-values = 5.5 per thousand), as well as by very stable longitudinal T/E profiles and carbon isotopic ratios in the first hours following administration. According to T/E ratios and delta(13)C-values, the washout period after 80 mg TU intake was less than 48 h for all subjects and no accumulation phenomenon was observed upon chronic oral administration.

PMID: 16438998 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Yes, but the test isn't quite black and white. The result is definately Positive or Negative, but was the test done correctly? Any lab that allows leaks such as this clearly violates protocol. To me, that brings into question their procedures. If their procedures are in question....

Thats my point. I think its LIKELY that the information is true. I just think there is enough suspicion for me to not make a final conclusion based upon preliminary reporting in a highly biased paper from a lab of questionable quality.

whether the test was done correctly, interpreted correctly etc. is still open to question. that's one reason there's a procedure for a B sample. What gets me is the posts on here that don't want to believe that the isotope test was actually done and was positive. "The French are making this up" line is wearing a little thin. The lab made an error is still possible, but I wouldn't put the farm on it.

Didn't Floyd recently state that the high levels of Jack Daniels found in his system throughout his career are "natural and produced by my own organism” ?

organism or orgasm?

I am bothered by Saturday's potential to strip Landis of his title. The methods used to determine doping are not perfect. What if he appeals Saturday's potential negative result and he wins his appeal. Will he get his TOur De France title back?

The methods used to determine doping are not perfect.
The methods will never be perfect, because the dopers are always coming up with new techniques to get around them. But the fact is, an IRMS test lends much stronger evidence to synthetic testosterone than the T/E test.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but it may answer your question.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16438998&dopt=Abstract

Screening urine for exogenous testosterone by isotope ratio mass spectrometric analysis of one pregnanediol and two androstanediols.

Aguilera R, Catlin DH, Becchi M, Phillips A, Wang C, Swerdloff RS, Pope HG, Hatton CK.

Laboratoire Suisse d'Analyse du Dopage, Institut Universitaire de Medecine Legale, Lausanne, Switzerland.

The metabolic effect of multiple oral testosterone undecanoate (TU) doses over 4 weeks was assessed in seven voluntary men. The protocol was designed to detect accumulation of the substance by choosing the appropriate spot urines collections time and to study the urinary clearance of the substance after weeks of treatment. Urines were analysed by a new GC/C/isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS) method to establish the delta(13)C-values of testosterone metabolites (androsterone and etiocholanolone) together with an endogenous reference compound (16(5alpha)-androsten-3alpha-ol). The significant differences in inter-individual metabolism following TU intake was illustrated by large variations in delta(13)C-values of both T metabolites (maximum Deltadelta(13)C-values = 5.5 per thousand), as well as by very stable longitudinal T/E profiles and carbon isotopic ratios in the first hours following administration. According to T/E ratios and delta(13)C-values, the washout period after 80 mg TU intake was less than 48 h for all subjects and no accumulation phenomenon was observed upon chronic oral administration.

PMID: 16438998 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Hmmm...so if I read that correctly it would have been out of his system by the time they tested him again (after the stage 19 time trial is, I think, the next time he was tested after stage 17, right?). This is assuming that he took something the night of stage 16.

I am bothered by Saturday's potential to strip Landis of his title. The methods used to determine doping are not perfect. What if he appeals Saturday's potential negative result and he wins his appeal. Will he get his TOur De France title back?

I would hope they won't strip it until the appeals are all done but won't be surprised if they do. If he is later found innocent, I'd think they'd have to give it back. You know that Perreiro will not want it/want to give it back.

I read he fails Saturday's result, he losses his title.

Hmmm...so if I read that correctly it would have been out of his system by the time they tested him again (after the stage 19 time trial is, I think, the next time he was tested after stage 17, right?). This is assuming that he took something the night of stage 16.
This is the result of a study, so we shouldn't immediately draw parallels to Landis. However, I think it does show that you COULD take some form of testosterone and enough of it would be gone in time such that it would not show in subsequent testing.

I'm not entirely familiar with all the substances named in this abstract, so perhaps someone qualified would be able to provide a better interpretation.

You know that Perreiro will not want it/want to give it back.
I think I read somewhere where Pereiro is quoted as saying that he wouldn't want to win the Tour title this way, and that the race is to be won on the roads, or something along those lines.

I'm sure he also knows that the race would have been entirely different if Landis was not racing, and he may not have even finished on the podium. Given this fact then, if Landis were stripped of his title, then had it given back, Pereiro shouldn't have a problem with it.

I think part of the cheating relies on the fact that they don't do the complicate test that detects exogenous testosterone unless the T/E ratio is 4:1 or higher.

So what they probably try to do is time it such that by the time they are tested, the ration is below 4:1.

In Floyd's case, they screwed up. For some reasons, ironically perhaps due to some natural occurences, perhaps the drinking, perhaps the hypothyroidism, he was still at 11:1 when they tested, so they went ahead and tested for the exogenous testosterone. If he had used a little bit less, or taken it a bit earlier, he probably would have passed the T/E test and they would never have tested for the exogenous testosterone.

You know, to go off on a slight tangent, one of the criticisms of standardized testing in education is that everyone and everything gets focused on passing tests rather than learning. I guess it's human nature. The same effect appears to occur in cycling. What's "fair" is anything, as long as you pass the tests. Lance's ex-mechanic testified that Lance said something like "everyone does it" when he was confronted about some unlabeled pills.

<speculation>
So, for years, he's been "playing fair", only taking enough EPO, steroids, testosterone patches etc. to still be able to pass the tests, just like everybody else, and, then, all of a sudden, because of some unexpected fluke, he fails a test. From his point of view, I can see how he might feel cheated.
</speculation>

whether the test was done correctly, interpreted correctly etc. is still open to question. that's one reason there's a procedure for a B sample.

Which is why I think the B sample should be tested at a different certified lab at random. If you're testing something for a completely objectionable result shouldn't you make an effort of trying to be as believeable as possible? I.e.-take all doubt out. Send it to a lab in the US or canada, or wherever.