Professional Cycling For the Fans - Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

There are so many threads out there all over the place, and all of them are dealing with the exact same topic. So to keep moderators sane and conversations in one place, I'll create threads on different aspects of the Landis problems. If anyone has stuff to say about that topic, could you NOT create yet another new thread on the topic and just confine it to the thread created? Honestly, I'm not trying to censor or anything... I'm just trying to consolidate and keep members and moderators sane. It's not a censorship issue- it's a sanity issue.

So this thread is about the A and B sample test, and whether or not the tests are valid. Please- put your discussions, whether for or against in this thread. I've merged all threads to do with the samples here.

Koffee Brown

Forum Moderator

If you test for drugs for 4 wks and only show up positive on one occasions, I think the proof will show that it was french sabatoge...those euro's need to cut this out\\

As far I'm concerned Landis has shown to me that he is the REAL TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPION

Hee haw!

If you test for drugs for 4 wks and only show up positive on one occasions, I think the proof will show that it was french sabatoge...those euro's need to cut this out\\

As far I'm concerned Landis has shown to me that he is the REAL TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPION

:) maybe the french should remember that if it weren't for the americans, they would now be germans:D :eek:

:) maybe the french should remember that if it weren't for the americans, they would now be germans:D :eek:

And if it wasn't for the French, Americans might be British. ;)

*runs and hides*

If the French were now Germans they'd probably be better off. ;)

And all of this has what to do with whether Floyd doped or not?

And all of this has what to do with whether Floyd doped or not?
Nothing. But it sure makes the day go by faster when you're stuck in an office.

because of the americans, we will all soon be ethiopians

Nothing. But it sure makes the day go by faster when you're stuck in an office.

That's the most intelligent thing I read about all this affair :D

And if it wasn't for the French, Americans might be British. ;)

*runs and hides*I think the Dutch should get more credit for that!

Enjoy some "freedom" fries at lunch.

This anti-French / conspiracy slant of many people on BF (and many Americans in general) is ridiculous.

When Basso and Ulrich wre banned the day before the tour it must have been a conspiracy against the Germans and Italians. Please...

I think the Dutch should get more credit for that!

And maybe the Iroquois?

http://daniel.nordvall.com/title_images/11/sabotage.jpg

chacun écoutent, il est un sabotage

And maybe the Iroquois?

There's only one Thierry Henry.

And maybe the Iroquois?
Without the huge lines of credit that John Adams arranged from the Dutch to the early revolutionaries, the struggle for independence would not have survived until the French got here.

I was not being an obnoxious francophobe -- just sharing something I learned recently in a bio of John Adams.

:) maybe the french should remember that if it weren't for the americans, they would now be germans:D :eek:

Yes, because as history clearly demonstrates, it was the Americans who singlehandedly saved Europe. The Russians and Brits played no part in defeating Hitler's forces.

:rolleyes:

I believe this is a current photo of the CESM that conducted Floyd's piss test.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/R/french_surrendermonkey.jpg

And if it wasn't for the French, Americans might be British. ;)

*runs and hides*

Not the worst outcome, considering the fact that revolution notwithstanding, every decent value we have comes from the British, the British gave up slavery before we did and a consolidated British Empire would have favored Britain in WWI and surely decreased the odds of WWII happening or taking as long as it did.

I believe this is a current photo of the CESM that conducted Floyd's piss test.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/H/R/french_surrendermonkey.jpg


ok, I almost burst out laughing at that photo.......

is that a cheese-eating surrender-monkey?

hahah

Yes, because as history clearly demonstrates, it was the Americans who singlehandedly saved Europe. The Russians and Brits played no part in defeating Hitler's forces. :rolleyes:


If not for the US, the British and Russians would have been left with throwing rocks at the Germans. This conversation is going absolutely nowhere...

If not for the Visigoths this forum would be in Latin.

From ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2006/news/story?id=2531677

Its not often that someone from WADA says "innocent until proven guilty".

Good read. It'll be interesting to see what Floyd's normal testosterone ratio is...

Interesting, but it doesn't answer two questions that could be relevant.

First, if external testosterone was introduced, how long would the ratio be elevated? Possibly useful if it would remain for more than two days, and his test after the time trial was within limits, it would imply that there was some other explanation for the ratio.

Second, if the B sample matches the A sample, is that the end of the process, or does Floyd have the opportunity to appeal on some grounds (naturally high levels, affect of alcohol, etc)?

The most level headed comments heard yet- and even then, there should be an opportunity for Landis to respond and clear himself.

Koffee

ok, I almost burst out laughing at that photo.......

is that a cheese-eating surrender-monkey?

hahahHe did not always powder his rear before pleasuring the Gestapo-monkey. That sir, is a hero of l' Resistance.

In 20 years of watching pro bike racing I've NEVER seen a rider test positive for high testosterone levels. Which would sort of indicate it's certainly not the method of choice for enhancing performance through clandestine means. Which sort of makes you wonder what's UP with this situation.

I don't get it.

If it doesn't add up, if it's not consistent - and I don't think this does - something's not right here, and that makes it easier to give Floyd SOME benefit of the doubt. EPO - that would be far less of a head scratcher than this. Can anyone cite another pro cyclist who got banned for testing positive for high testosterone? I can't think of one myself...

Ah. Bicycle racing. What WOULD we do without non-stop doping scandals to pass the time...

From the article:

But most steroids are given in cycles [6-12 weeks] and in context of working out in a gym with weights. It makes no sense to me why an athlete would take testosterone the day of a race when it doesn't work that way. It doesn't make sense in terms of the pharmacology of the drug, and it really doesn't have the attributes that would be attractive to a cyclist -- particularly one running the risk of violating anti-doping regulations.

Maybe there is hope in this. The drug doesn't fit the crime. If he wanted to crush everyone on the stage, he would have asked Amber to bring that bag of blood in the freezer when she arrived from San Diego, and his Hct would have taken a bump. Testosterone would seem to be a marginal benefit for the potential risk.

I thought Chiapucci tested positive for testosterone

I thought Chiapucci tested positive for testosterone

If that's true, that's a reach- when did Claudio retire, 1994? In other words, steroids are NOT what cyclists do - it adds bulk and weight along with strength. Just doesn't add up weenies. Think about it.

And THAT's why everyone is reading about this test result going 'Huh?'.

Except Euro. And HE'S giving up cycling. So something positive has already come from this. Praise Be.

It's entirely possible that the testosterone was real but not deliberate.

Tour riders get medication after every stage. IVs are common, and injections of vitamins and other things are common. As long as they aren't on the banned list, they're okay.

It's possible that somebody made a mistake in this regimen. Or there could be contamination in some sort of "natural" remedy - that has caught a number of athletes in the past.

The other alternative, of course, is that he *was* under regular injections, and either his natural level was a bit more elevated than normal, or he accidentally got multiple shots.

I would like to believe that Landis is innocent...

Of course it is, the French are doing it. Floyd should just threaten them, they'll surrender, and it's the end of the story.

cheese-eating surrender monkey! YES! It's about time I read a Grounds Keep Willy quote somewhere!

I agree it's a bit odd. Any doc's care to explain what good boosting your testosterone for one day would do in something like this?

I agree it's a bit odd. Any doc's care to explain what good boosting your testosterone for one day would do in something like this?


i'm pasting this from another forum i've been reading:



this is what the WADA Dr. said on ESPN

Q: For a cyclist, what's the benefit of elevated levels of testosterone? Why would a cyclist use it?

A: It's certainly not one of the first-line drugs one thinks of for racing. Steroids can increase strength and improve recovery time and prevent the breakdown of muscle, maybe make him more assertive and aggressive. All of those could have some positive attribute. But most steroids are given in cycles [6-12 weeks] and in context of working out in a gym with weights. It makes no sense to me why an athlete would take testosterone the day of a race when it doesn't work that way. It doesn't make sense in terms of the pharmacology of the drug, and it really doesn't have the attributes that would be attractive to a cyclist -- particularly one running the risk of violating anti-doping regulations.

Everybody knew the spotlight was on cycling. For eight years, the world has been watching cycling particularly closely. It would be the ultimate form of denial, or the ultimate sense of invincibility, to think you're going to evade that. And when the pharmacology of the drug doesn't really, in my judgment, seem like a drug of particular note to a cyclist, it doesn't really compute.

It's entirely possible that the testosterone was real but not deliberate.

Tour riders get medication after every stage. IVs are common, and injections of vitamins and other things are common. As long as they aren't on the banned list, they're okay....

I would like to believe that Landis is innocent...

I too would like to believe he is clean. It is best for everyone.

However what you're suggesting is that instead of being hooked up to that big bag marked 'SALINE' that evening, someone picked the one called 'TESTOSTERONE' instead ? :)

By now, the Operation Puerto folks must surely have starting scanning for a Fuentes code like 'def mennonite' :) :) :)

Weightlifters use steroids in large part to decrease recovery time. They can lift every day instead of every other day. Cyclists use it for the same reason.

If that's true, that's a reach- when did Claudio retire, 1994? In other words, steroids are NOT what cyclists do - it adds bulk and weight along with strength. Just doesn't add up weenies. Think about it.

And THAT's why everyone is reading about this test result going 'Huh?'.

Except Euro. And HE'S giving up cycling. So something positive has already come from this. Praise Be.

When you take stuff like dbol, which rises your test levels, you actually burn fat faster and your muscles recover super quick. The type of muscles it builds are lean, not bulky. And, of course, it your strength increases.
Im not claiming that Floyd is guilty or innocent, but raised test levels will definately help you ride.

When you take stuff like dbol, which rises your test levels, you actually burn fat faster and your muscles recover super quick. The type of muscles it builds are lean, not bulky. And, of course, it your strength increases.
Im not claiming that Floyd is guilty or innocent, but raised test levels will definately help you ride.

but a one-off shot of testrostorine? don't think it would do much at all. everything i know about it (which isn't much granted) is that it's done on a cycle. increase the levels gradually and let your body adapt to the changes. surely it would have come up before in tests if that's what was going on.

something does seem strange.

Yeah, we've been scratching our heads at work all day long. It really doesn't make sense. What would the benefits of higher testosterone levels be for a cyclist? Maybe muscle recovery because he kind of bonked the stage before?

It makes no sense to me why an athlete would take testosterone the day of a race when it doesn't work that way.


Oh ya, I forgot he tested postive for just one day.
When you are trying to raise your test levels, its not an instant thing. He would have had to be taking roids for at least a week or two for effects to set in.

Pretty good article here that explains how it would benefit a cyclist, and some insight from the author who spoke w/ Floyd today ... http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/austin_murphy/07/27/landis.react/index.html ...
<quote>
Even before Landis finished Stage 17, when he pulled back most of the time he had lost the previous day, the whispers had begun. Allen Lim, Landis' trainer, took pains in the days that followed to point out that the effort put forth by Landis in that heroic, Tour-saving stage was generally in line with "what he's done in training." The anomaly had been the bonk the previous day.

Then you read what German doctor Kurt Moosburger recently told Cyclingnews.com: "You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need -- depending on your training conditions -- up to three days in order to regenerate."

To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery."

Dr. Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone-replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster."
</quote>

I guess Phonak just plain stupid to suspend Floyd. IF it's fishy, Phonak will do everything to defend him.

I guess Phonak just plain stupid to suspend Floyd.

They're obligated to suspend him.

Dianabol has an extremely high aromatization rate; therefore, the amount of testosterone in the body begins to convert to Estrogren. Furthermore, DBOL increases water retention and makes athletes look like water baloons.

You can take Clomid tablets to decrease the effects; however, it still happens...

Testosterone Ethanate, Ciponate(?), etc all have high aromatization rates and increases water retention. I have no idea why a cyclist would take any sort of Testosterone injections due to water retention.

Except Euro. And HE'S giving up cycling. So something positive has already come from this. Praise Be.

Ehr?

Where did you read this?

Dianabol has an extremely high aromatization rate; therefore, the amount of testosterone in the body begins to convert to Estrogren. Furthermore, DBOL increases water retention and makes athletes look like water baloons.

You can take Clomid tablets to decrease the effects; however, it still happens...

Testosterone Ethanate, Ciponate(?), etc all have high aromatization rates and increases water retention. I have no idea why a cyclist would take any sort of Testosterone injections due to water retention.


generally, dbol doesnt always baloon people out. moreover, taking clomid is pretty effective at reducing water retention.

Gert Jan Theunisse, his nickname in the peloton was "testo"

What do you all think of this:(from Timmhaan's quote from the WADA dr above about why a rider would take testosterone)
"...maybe make him more assertive and aggressive"
Did anyone else notice how angry Floyd seemed at the end of the comeback stage and at the end of the ITT? He seemed really pissed and, well, aggressive. I think I remmember him throwing his sunglasses at someone and it seemed like he was pushing people out of the way. I have grown to like Floyd and was really enjoying this years TdF. I hope to hell this isn't true, but the whole "aggressive" thing made my heart sink when I thought of his attitude at the end of those stages. Hopefully it was the pain and the heat of the moment.......