Bicycle Mechanics - N20(Nitrous) instead of CO2 cartridges?

Attention science folks! Anybody attempted to use Nitrous Oxide (N2O) cartridges instead of Carbon Dioxide (CO2) in their pumps? It's a lot cheaper to buy a box of 'em at the local Smart and Final (or head shop for some of you!) and at the end of your ride you can suck the gas out of your tubes for a nice cool down! Would it be safe? Would it last in the tube?

Thanks--gaijin

HAHAHAHAHA what the.... LOL is this a joke?

Not a good Idea at all.

At least the original question is not a joke. Every time I go to Smart and Final and I see the box of "Easy Whip" cartridges it makes me think.

HAHAHAHAHA what the.... LOL is this a joke?

Why isnt it a good idea? Its lighter than co2 lets hear why N20 isnt a good choice.

N2O is laughing gas.... lots of kids abuse it.... you know, buy cans of whipping cream just to snort the gas.

CO2 has a molecular weight of 44
N2O has a molecular weight of 44

CO2 has a molecular weight of 44
N2O has a molecular weight of 44

HAHAHAHA.......in that case, I'll stick with plain 'ole O2.....molecular weight of 32!

George

Great idea! Why heck if you were racing and was in second place with only 20 yards to the finish line and the first place guy was only a maybe a wheel length ahead, you could puncture your rear tire and light a match then BOOM, the resulting explosion would blow you into first place! OK, I'll stop inhaling the N2O now-darn!

How about helium in your tires, then you can just float over the top of the competition.

At least with N2O you wouldn't be contributing to a Greenhouse Gas.

Attention science folks! Anybody attempted to use Nitrous Oxide (N2O) cartridges instead of Carbon Dioxide (CO2) in their pumps? It's a lot cheaper to buy a box of 'em at the local Smart and Final (or head shop for some of you!) and at the end of your ride you can suck the gas out of your tubes for a nice cool down! Would it be safe? Would it last in the tube?

Thanks--gaijin

Hmmm... several things to think about:

I don't know if the NO2 cartridges have the same amount of pressure as the CO2 cartridges. If they have less then you might have a problem getting your tubes inflated to the right pressure. Also, I haven't seen any NO2 cartridges which are threaded so those of us using threaded inflators wouldn't be able to use them. And I'm not sure where you're getting your pricing from but IME even a bulkload of cases of NO2 cartridges (read: 600 cartridges) works out to around US$2.50/cartridge. That's definately not cheaper than CO2 cartridges.

Great idea! Why heck if you were racing and was in second place with only 20 yards to the finish line and the first place guy was only a maybe a wheel length ahead, you could puncture your rear tire and light a match then BOOM, the resulting explosion would blow you into first place! OK, I'll stop inhaling the N2O now-darn!

Nitrous Oxide isn't flammable, neither is Helium.

Marty

Nitrous Oxide isn't explosive? How? It is used in drag racing in both Top Fuel and Funny Car and in some street classes as a "boot". Ever heard of NOS (Nitrous Oxide System)?

Nitrogen is used in race car tires and to power the pnumatic impact wrenches used to change tires in pit stops. I don't believe N is used in bike racing as you don't deal with near the extreme high tempatures. I'll just stick to CO2 for now.

Nitrous Oxide isn't explosive? How? It is used in drag racing in both Top Fuel and Funny Car and in some street classes as a "boot". Ever heard of NOS (Nitrous Oxide System)?

Nitrogen is used in race car tires and to power the pnumatic impact wrenches used to change tires in pit stops. I don't believe N is used in bike racing as you don't deal with near the extreme high tempatures. I'll just stick to CO2 for now.

Sorry, it is not explosive or flammable. The nitrous gas is cold and condenses the oxygen that burns the fuel.

Sorry, it is not explosive or flammable. The nitrous gas is cold and condenses the oxygen that burns the fuel.

I thought it was because the Nitrous has more oxygen per volume then regular air, thus getting more air into the engine.

DieselDan, I think that racecar tires use helium in them to make them lighter and also the fact that helium resists the heat buildup better. I think that they would use helium in bike racing, except it leaks really fast (smaller molecule?) and there is not a whole lot of air in a bike tire anyway.

they use regular air in impact wrenches. it is just compressed with a compressor.

I thought it was because the Nitrous has more oxygen per volume then regular air, thus getting more air into the engine.

It's a bit of both.

When nitrous is heated (above 570F, I think) it splits into oxygen and nitrogen, thus making more oxygen available for combustion in the engine. And when it vaporizes, it provides a cooling effect on the intake air, which increases the air's density thus making even more oxygen available for combustion.

Not flammable at all.

Nitrous Oxide isn't explosive? How? It is used in drag racing in both Top Fuel and Funny Car and in some street classes as a "boot". Ever heard of NOS (Nitrous Oxide System)?

N2O is not explosive or even flammable. The cooling effect mentioned is valid but minimal. The reason that it is used in cars for a boost is that is acts as a CATYLIST for the fuel. This is due to the added oxygen content. This makes it burn hotter and faster, thus giving a boost in horsepower. And the occasional burnt piston.

PS. N2O is not used in top fuel, they burn nitromethane.

I don't know if the NO2 cartridges have the same amount of pressure as the CO2 cartridges. If they have less then you might have a problem getting your tubes inflated to the right pressure.

Good point about the pressure. Expanding liquid CO2 can easily get up to 600-800psi (i.e. paintball guns) but I doubt getting cream into a frothy whipped consistency requires that much pressure.

All you want to know about Nitrous Oxide... http://www.cganet.com/N2O/factsht.asp

I drag race cars....Nitrous is gas form contains high amounts of O2 (oxygen) so injecting N20 increases the volume of O2. More O2 + fuel = more HP. Also N20 cools the intake charge or AIT (air intake temps) very important on high HP drag cars, cools cyclinder temps and is also used to spool turbo cars. Top Fuel cars use nitromethane different than n20. N20 is NOT flammable.

NO2 is classified as a non flammable gas but in my Emergency Response Guide Book (for handling and clean up of hazardous materials) this is what they say about it


" Substance does not burn, but it will support combustion
Some may react explosively with fuels
May ignite combustibles (wood,paper,clothing,etc)
Vapors from liquefied gas are initially heavier than air and spread along the ground
Run off may create fire or explosion hazard......"

Where CO2 is non flammable although you do not want to inhale it and you must be cautious of freeze burns. I'll stick to the CO2 it seems a bit more stable.

Nitrous Oxide isn't flammable, neither is Helium.

Marty

Yeah I knew that, but it sounded good! KABOOM

Booyah and Saso are dead on about the use of N20 to increase output in internal combustion engines.

And no, it's not (as previously mentioned) in itself flammable. It's an accelerant, meaning that it aids rapid combustion.

And nitrogen is used to power air tools and air jacks in the hotpits (i.e. trackside) in motor racing for the fast pit stops. The reason they (we) use the big bottles of nitrogen is that they have extremely high pressure (our bottles are rated to 2000 psi of storage capacity, but you can get bigger) and can support high air flow volume for short periods of time. An air compressor just can't get a motorcycle (or car) elevated fast enough for a fast pitstop. It's cheap, too! If you've already paid for the bottle (the expensive part), a refill for a 2000 lb. bottle only costs about 27 bucks at Airgas or Praxair.

The reason that it's used in tires is not for any weight reason, but because it doesn't expand with the high tire temps seen in motor racing (we aim for 180 degrees F on supersport motorcycle tires). By having pressure rise under control, you can acheive better repeatability in the tire's traction behavior. (In addition to a daily calibrated tire gauge with a padded box guarded like the crown jewels!)

Before anyone points out that the atmosphere is indeed 78% nitrogen, part of that remaining 22% is moisture----the main thing that expands in tires when heated. Then add the moisture from the tire mounting process. The nitrogen that comes out of the bottles is "dry".

Here's the full routine for you other motor racers who are (obviously) lurking out there:

1) Mount tires. Set beads as per normal and set pressure.
2) Balance tires.
3) Break the bead on one side only of the balanced tire.
4) With the tire laying on its side, push the bead down away from the rim on the side opposite the valve stem.
5) While holding the bead down, start inflating with nitrogen. When you feel the cool nitrogen flowing past your hand, count to 2 or 3. This step purges most of the plain ol' wet air out of the tire.
6) Release your hand while still filling. This will set the bead.

You now have a tire that won't rise as much during the race. You will, however, need to re-adjust your starting pressure. Go a pound at a time, and keep an eye on those tire temps...

Now, back to the bicycles!
-Erik

Nitrous Oxide does both...it introduce more oxygen into the combustion chamber allowing for more fuel to be introduced and it cools the intake charge making for a more dense air mixture which allows for more fuel as well.

Nitrous Oxide is not flamable but I cant figure out how you get 'nitrous/intake explosions from it pooling up.

CO2 is 10X more disolvable in blood than regular. Suppose you have a cut on you hand and accidently blast it with your CO2 cartridge....you really dont need to worry about a CO2 bubble getting into your arteries....N20 on the other hand...isnt there something about nitrogen and scuba diving and nitrogen bubbling in your blood? Blast an open cut with one of those and who knows what might happen,

would helium work in a tire???

Nitrous Oxide does both...it introduce more oxygen into the combustion chamber allowing for more fuel to be introduced and it cools the intake charge making for a more dense air mixture which allows for more fuel as well.

Nitrous Oxide is not flamable but I cant figure out how you get 'nitrous/intake explosions from it pooling up.

CO2 is 10X more disolvable in blood than regular. Suppose you have a cut on you hand and accidently blast it with your CO2 cartridge....you really dont need to worry about a CO2 bubble getting into your arteries....N20 on the other hand...isnt there something about nitrogen and scuba diving and nitrogen bubbling in your blood? Blast an open cut with one of those and who knows what might happen,

The pooling up is when the n20 sits or settles in a part of the motor during the car being off eg. Intake manifold . When the key is turned and the mixture enters the cyclinder( usually in a lean condition) that spells explosion, hence why cars have safety switches to prevent N20 injection at idle. Other pooling is when the distribution of N20 is uneven resulting in a cyclinder running lean (not enough fuel). The lean condition will cause deadly detonation.
Race grade N20 contains sulphur and cannot be abused unlike medical grade N20.

MiamiJim
The condition you are referring to is the Bends and is a
result of nitrogen coming out of solution (Blood) due
to decompression occuring too quickly. If you blasted an
open cut with N02 it would have no effect. You have to breath compressed gas at greater than 1 Atm pressure to be able to get the bends.
Think about this, would your whipped cream manufactures or Dentist use N02 if it were flammable and
dangerous? I think not.

Marty

no one has even mentioned fast & furious or 2 fast 2 furious for that matter. they ran NOS in their iced out rides. anyone know where i can get a spoiler and a drop kit for my fixed gear?

I did a bit of research and math. You can buy this box of NO2 from www.creamright.com for $9.50 for a box of 24.

http://www.creamright.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Purewhipbo.jpg

It weighs in at 1.5 pounds which converts to 680.4 grams.

You can buy this box of 25 CO2 cartridges for $15.70 at 12 grams each. Now multiply that times the amount of cartridges and it comes out to 300 grams which is about 3/4 of a pound.

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product/crosman/crosdes/crospic/2311.jpg

Now it appears to me that they can stuff mroe NO2 into a cartridge the same size as a CO2 cartridge and sell it for less. I could also assume that by the extra weight that the cartridge has more pressure and volume in it.

So why wouldn't it work?

give it a try and tell us if it works... i saw on ebay a while ago somebody trying to sell nitrous oxide kits fabricated from these little cartridges.

This reminds me of my time in california when I was in the Navy-- and no I wasn't riding bikes at the time!

hahahahah that site is hilariou5!!!! it's a legitimate store front for drug sales!!!

anyways... i seriously thought you were joking about nitrous, since it IS laughing gas. but as long as the cartridge fits onto regular CO2 inflators, it should work fine!

hahaha check this out:

Q. Are these Nitrous Oxide chargers to be inhaled?

A. No, we do not sell our product for this purpose. It is illegal to abuse Nitrous Oxide in most states. The Nitrous Oxide contained in these chargers is highly purified much like what you may have been treated with in your dentist's office. It is also known as "laughing gas". We emphasize that you are not to inhale this gas. If you accidentally inhale the gas, exhale immediately because the narcosis occurs while the gas is in your lungs. There have been reported cases of death occurring by people inhaling Nitrous Oxide from chargers using plastic bags or otherwise cutting their air flow!


Q. Is it legal to buy Nitrous Oxide chargers?

A. We are selling a food product and it is not intended to be used for any other purposes. We will not sell our products to people under the age of 18, and will not send it to you if we believe you are not using it for its intended purpose. The misuse and abuse of Nitrous Oxide is illegal, dangerous to your health and is illegal.

helium would be cool

Isn't the size of the nitrogen (and helium) molecule smaller than O2? It would "bleed" out of the tube faster. Not a problem in a race car tire where the low expansion rate of nitrogen is important but being able to do a century on a bike without needing to stop and top off is different.

The cartridiges above only hold 8g. vs. 12g. for the CO2 standard unthreaded. I don't know how that relates to the pressures but I bet it wouldn't be enough.

Isn't the size of the nitrogen (and helium) molecule smaller than O2? It would "bleed" out of the tube faster. Not a problem in a race car tire where the low expansion rate of nitrogen is important but being able to do a century on a bike without needing to stop and top off is different.

Since an O2 molecule is made up of mostly nitrogen, I would agree that it would be smaller. NItrogen is quite interesting in that to achieve its gaseous form it must super cooled, I might even be wrong but I believe while in its compressed super cooled state its in liquid form. Once it hits that atmospere is becomes gaseous again, can anyone back me up. I do know that my cousins that races Pro GT class uses helium in the tires to stabilize tyre temps and rises in tyre pressure. SO it must be useful in a bicycle. NOt too sure about the N20, I think helium would be more practical.

Since an O2 molecule is made up of mostly nitrogen, I would agree that it would be smaller.

That in an of itself doesn't make sense but I get what you're trying to say: Air is mainly composed of nitrogen molecules.

From the Rubber Bible (CRC handbook):


Name Symbol Percent by Volume
Nitrogen N2 78.084 %
Oxygen O2 20.9476 %
Argon Ar 0.934 %
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.0314 %
Neon Ne 0.001818 %
Methane CH4 0.0002 %
Helium He 0.000524 %
Krypton Kr 0.000114 %
Hydrogen H2 0.00005 %
Xenon Xe 0.0000087 %

I reread what I said and think I may have been unclear (Plus, I don't 100% know what I am talking about) Think of the rubber tube as a screen and the molecules as sand. Some of the sand is smaller than others and passes through the screen more easily. The helium molecule is pretty small(It is also very stable making it good for lots of things) but ever notice how a baloon filled with helium goes flat real quick while a balloon you inflated with air will stay up for a while, it is because the molecules pass through the rubber more easily, sand through a screen.

Chuck:
Monatomic He is much smaller than diatomic O2 or N2 and is very permeable to rubber tubes. N2 and O2 are proximate in size, N2 a little larger.
Some track bikes use He to save weight for short races (I once calculated filling mountain bike tires with He could save about 18 g/tire over air, and another G could be saved with H2).
The Air Force experimented with weight saving He in SR-71 landing gear tires before giving up due the permeability issue.


Ngateguy: Like O2, N2O is not explosive. The attributes you posted are also attributes of O2. N2O combusts with fuel, sometimes explosively-i.e. it supports combustion just like O2.

Hey come on guys gaijin may have a point. You flat out have a PITA time of putting a new tube/patch in. After filling the tire you can suck down one or two bottles and at least "feel better" about the incident. :D

" Substance does not burn, but it will support combustion
Some may react explosively with fuels
May ignite combustibles (wood,paper,clothing,etc)
Vapors from liquefied gas are initially heavier than air and spread along the ground
Run off may create fire or explosion hazard......"



This is a direct quote I took from the "Emergency Response Guide Books" put out in conjuntion with the US DOT and their Canadian counterparts. It is used as a feild guide for emergency response teams. I posted it so people could see the risks involved with using either one of those products.