Hi Som, any luck with your B and if so how is it?

Somnatash, where have you got those figures? Have you scaled them yourself?
Quite surprising to see that brompton parts are that light. I have seen many people who changed cranks to 'lighten' their bromptons, but there are few cranks lighter than 809g! Most carbon cranks weigh more (FSA K-force mega exo weighs 850g, for example)
And are brompton rims really 287g? They look 2 times wider than velocity rims..

Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts. :[

you know what? im wondering if MERC is selling their production to dahon to produce these.. with a few dahon refinements..

cuz what happened to MERC? i mean i woudln't be surprised to see merc bundling off production or even being bought by dahon..

and i would be surprised to see this dahon for less than $800usd. it sounds like its going to be the top model for a little bit.

I like how the tires basically envelope the bike. Hopefully this will:
1. Make it easy to simply add a strap and carry it like a messenger bag without having the metal parts jab and scratch your skin.
2. Simply stick it in a cardboard box for airline travel and let the pneumatic tires protect it.

The exposed chain might be a problem, but you probably don't need to oil the chain on a derailleurless bike anyway.

Looking forward to taking one for a test ride when it's released.

trueno, Merc is actually made by Flamingo in Taiwan. Merc simply puts their badge on the Flamingo-built bike as far as I can tell.

--sam

thanks sam! we need cheaper brommys.....

To me it looks like the patent has been granted, US patent #20070210556.

In case anyone is interested:

That is a published US patent application. Granted US patents are currently in the high 7 millions (the granted US patent will be 7,xxx,yyy).

EP granted patents are also 7 digits, but for extra confusion, published EP applications have an A1, A2, or A3 suffix and granted patents have a B1 suffix.

I'm a patent attorney but do not work in the mechanical arts. I will not comment on any of the patentability or validity issues raised earlier in this thread. Sorry

Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts. :[

When I've measured Brommie parts (digital scales, about the same weights as listed), I've found it quite difficult to find lighter parts. Their parts may look low-tech and cheap but they are fairly light.

Somnatash, where have you got those figures? Have you scaled them yourself?
Well, as said from the www. Some (brompton rims, telescopic seatpost, pentaclip) scaled on digital kitchen scale - so nothing "official".

Quite surprising to see that brompton parts are that light. I have seen many people who changed cranks to 'lighten' their bromptons, but there are few cranks lighter than 809g! Most carbon cranks weigh more (FSA K-force mega exo weighs 850g, for example) Yes, it seems difficult to find a lighter cranks/bb/chainwheel combination. The brompton stuff in this respect is already quite light - and for some too soft. Some people change the cranks not to "lighten" but to stiffen the drive.

And are brompton rims really 287g? They look 2 times wider than velocity rims.. Yes, they are 287g, mine at least.
From Velocity's page, they specify Aeroheat outer (!?) width is 24mm,
and the Aerohead outer width is 20mm...Brompton outer rim width is 25mm.

Maybe my guesses are all wrong and bromptons are using lightweight (although cheap looking) parts.Its a pity, Raxel was guessing when said brompton used "heavy components of old design" I was hoping for some hints how to lighten the 21lbs.

ugghh i cant see the chain

http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage.php?id=bicycle&no=29bcc427b48677a16fb3dab004c86b6f9a697bf10be2d1d46376430b385c79a081e115b75a95d56c9a7b57ee8a1155aee 3f79e785c8bc19a2480fd00aaa1f11f41ff9aa6a8f204&f_no=2ea8c22adad137a26bee84e2419f2e2df9

Keep looking... it's there.

--sam

ugghh i cant see the chain

Did you perhaps want to say: wurgghh, I can see the chain...(there on the outside)?:D

I've just heard this very interesting info that dahon is going to release a new ultracompact folder.


-It will be named 'Curl'
-It will have 18" wheel
-It will fold like brompton. (Rear swingarm folds downwards, not sideways like current dahons)
-It will have aluminium frame that look like current Curve model.


And I guess it will have V-brakes, internal gear hub (3 speed/8 speed), Klickfix mount as such.
At last, modernized brompton from dahon... :) I can't wait to get one.


http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage.php?id=bicycle&no=29bcc427b48677a16fb3dab004c86b6f9a697bf10be2d1d46376430b385c79a081e115b75a95d56c9a7b57ee8a1155aee 3f79e785c8bc19a2480fd00aaa1f11f41ff9aa6a8f204&f_no=2ea8c22adad137a26bee84e2419f2e2df9

I have seen and posted a early thread on this bike. While I think it is very nice that Dahon is "honoring" Brompton by being inspired by them, I still think that Brompton is the better buy. For the sheer reason that Bromptons are handmade in the way of the old craftsman style of assembly. They are intended for years of loving use. Dahons are more in the line of casting aside a model that might work well, but it is not innovative enough for them. That means obsolescence is pretty much built right in and garanteed in older models (just try to get a part to replace a worn out one) and you are stuck with a bike that could be fixed just for a want of a single part.

Sorry to reiterate the Brompton is not dated. It is designed for a purpose and it serves that purpose very well as FF clearly points out. As I said in another thread the Brompton was a bike ahead of its time and now a bike of of its time.

Dahon make some very nice 20" folders but I'm struggling event to compare even the Curve SL to a good Brompton as nice as it is. It's an old argument and tends to go around in circles. I have my Brompton 3 months now and absolutely love it. Folds well, rides well and has a great front luggage system and a touring pannier which I often use for fill-in shopping with a cavernous 28 litre capacity, or for carrying extra papers and stuff to work. The only thing it can't really do is ride off-road but I have a Downtube FS for that!

I look forward to seeing the Curl but I doubt it will be much cheaper than the Brompton at the high end. The Brompton chain also folds inside. The only thing I'd love to see Brompton do is introduce an 8 speed hub with wider gearing range and a single shifter. Aside from that it's still very much at the forefront of compact folders with a decent ride.

I have seen and posted a early thread on this bike. While I think it is very nice that Dahon is "honoring" Brompton by being inspired by them, I still think that Brompton is the better

Dahon consistently gives a better warranty than Brompton ; how can you make claims that Dahon is making throwaway bikes? Brompton almost fell out of the market because of their small size and inability to secure someone to make a proprietary hub for them a few years ago. Although I have 2 Bromptons, I bought them because there was no competition. There are too many areas where refinement is necessary and the price has been playing with the lack of competition in the market. Your posts on this matter show blind loyalty rather than giving an opportunity for a better competitor to come into this specific very compact genre.

Dahon consistently gives a better warranty than Brompton ; how can you make claims that Dahon is making throwaway bikes? Brompton almost fell out of the market because of their small size and inability to secure someone to make a proprietary hub for them a few years ago. Although I have 2 Bromptons, I bought them because there was no competition. There are too many areas where refinement is necessary and the price has been playing with the lack of competition in the market. Your posts on this matter show blind loyalty rather than giving an opportunity for a better competitor to come into this specific very compact genre.

I don't think Folderfanatic meant to say Dahon made 'throwaway' bikes! I think she probably meant they are inclined to change models too much which is true. Personally, they are a great company on the whole.

Brompton were only ever in danger of exiting the market or actually not entering it in the 1980's due to capital funding issues. I think Andrew Ritchie is a great character. Brompton continue to make one of the finest compact folders. You are so mistaken saying Brompton charge high prices because of market dominance. Dahon have a far larger market share. Brompton's pricing is based on relative demand for their brand and also the fact that their manufacturing continues to be based in the UK, not oursourced to a low cost country. Perhaps there is something to be admired in that?

There are not that many areas where refinement is necessary. The Brompton is not designed to be a high performance bike but a practical, ergonomic and durable cycle with a great fold. Sure, some minor improvements are due but that could be levelled at any manufacturer. In the end you have 2 yourself which must mean the fold won you over?

Brompton's pricing is based on relative demand for their brand and also the fact that their manufacturing continues to be based in the UK, not oursourced to a low cost country. Perhaps there is something to be admired in that?

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say "relative supply".

A big turnoff I have when it comes to the Brompton is that here in the US you have to practically beg someone to sell it to you. Not only are they exorbitantly priced, but even stocking dealers don't actually stock the bikes or compatible parts and the closest dealer is often hundreds of miles away. No thanks, I don't need to go chasing people for the privilege of paying them a lot of money. Dahons are available in every city and bikes from Downtube, Pacific, and Bike Friday can be delivered to your door with moneyback trial periods.

While I wouldn't mind owning a Brompton, I'm not going to buy one unless I can try out all the various options and I'm certainly not going to rearrange my schedule to get to a shop hundreds of miles away on one of the 10-12 days a year when they just so happen to have a single Brompton configuration in stock. When I shop I compare things side by side, I like to have a choice of dealers, and I'm not going to stop doing so in lieu of an impulse buying frenzy (especially if I'm paying a premium, when I'm even more inclined to inspect and compare). Looking at the bikes that were available 10 or 20 years ago I have no doubt that the Brompton would have been my first choice, but today the rest of the market is moving so fast that by the time I jump through all the hoops to do my due diligence on buying a multithousand dollar Brompton it will probably be obsolete (at least I hope so because, let's face it, even as one of the smallest folders available the Brompton doesn't live up to the folding bike dream of "always take your bike with you").

In the end I think the most overlooked factor when it comes to comparing the various folder offerings is location. From what I understand Raxel pretty much has unlimited choice in his folders and his view of the Brompton is no doubt shaped by that. Those of you in the UK probably find the Brompton more available, but for me buying a Brompton seems like such a monumental hassle that I doubt I'd ever get around to buying one even if I intended to.

P.S. How is hiring relatively rich englishmen at the expense of poor chinese admirable? I would think that providing jobs for the less fortunate would be the thing to be admired.

If the "relatively" rich Englishman doesn't have a job because it's been sent to China, how long do you think he'll be "relatively" rich? It is admirable to keep the jobs in the UK, because it means profit is not the only motive of Brompton. Not to be obnoxious, but is buying things as cheaply as possible, no matter who it hurts in the long run, your only motive? Perhaps you may feel differently if your job is sent overseas someday...

If the "relatively" rich Englishman doesn't have a job because it's been sent to China, how long do you think he'll be "relatively" rich? It is admirable to keep the jobs in the UK, because it means profit is not the only motive of Brompton. Not to be obnoxious, but is buying things as cheaply as possible, no matter who it hurts in the long run, your only motive? Perhaps you may feel differently if your job is sent overseas someday...

If you're so concerned about the evils of the profit motive then why not support companies that pay chinese workers english wages?

I don't consider jingoism to be a more admirable motive than profit. Imperfect as it may be, in the long run the profit motive has done a lot more good for the world than jingoism ever has. In truth it really makes no difference whether your job is sent overseas or over the railroad tracks and to draw a distinction is nothing more than a subtle form of racism.

If you're so concerned about the evils of the profit motive then why not support companies that pay chinese workers english wages?

I don't consider jingoism to be a more admirable motive than profit. Imperfect as it may be, in the long run the profit motive has done a lot more good for the world than jingoism ever has. In truth it really makes no difference whether your job is sent overseas or over the railroad tracks and to draw a distinction is nothing more than a subtle form of racism.

I never said the profit motive was "evil". However, since you raised the subject, profit being one's sole motive is most assuredly evil, as well as stupid in the long run. Equally, price being the sole factor in one's purchasing decisions is stupid in the long run.

Please tell me the name of a few Chinese companies that pay their Chinese workers English wages? Chinese workers get paid less because the Chinese government and Chinese employers (who are often one in the same) exploit them--why do you advocate supporting company's that exploit their workers? Are you a Chinese nationalist who is willing to crush the average Chinese worker for the greater glory of China?

If you are really so naive as to think that there is no difference between supporting businesses that are propped up and aided by a dictatorial Chinese government with virtually no worker protection laws and that has no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, limited private property rights, etc. versus a European country that does, you are beyond the point of logical reasoning. That's not jingoism or racism my friend, its common sense that is not blinded by the short term profit motive.

One final thought: you certainly like to throw contentious words around ("rich", "evil", "jingoism", "racism"). My guess is your a young guy with no family who has yet to take it on the chin a few times. Tell us how things work in a decade or two when you are the father of a couple of kids with a mortgage and car payments and your boss tells you at 5 PM Friday not to bother coming in on Monday because the company had decided it would like to save a few bucks by having someone in another country do your job...

I use to think like you... then I got out in the real world and had to grow up.

RK

How is hiring relatively rich englishmen at the expense of poor chinese admirable? I would think that providing jobs for the less fortunate would be the thing to be admired.

Who said they were all English at the Brompton factory? They could be ethnically British citizens or from the EU too. Since when were the Chinese destitute too like you imply? Does that make Walmart a good company for utilising a large Chinese supply chain? Have you seen how they get treated? A very moralistic comment. Companies that show some commitment to still keeping operations in their oe country are few and far between in both the UK and the US these days. I mean look at the damaga offshoring and over-importing has done to the US and UK economies.

rbkinz (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=126362) you speak much common sense.

I would agree with you makeinu that perhaps Brompton's dealership support in the US might deter some consumers in the US. However, I notice that it is mostly people your side of the pond that start off anti-Brompton rants which are normally naive and misplaced. As for implying that rbkinz implied 'subtle racism' in his views, that's 100% ludicrous. I'd have thought your views closer to that actually and even that's probably pushing it!

Here are some corrections about Brompton:

1) From a performance folder point of view, Brompton's parts and design might seem old-fashioned and traditional. However the bike is not aimed at that segment and never has been. Brompton parts are durable and dependable. While dependable is boring to some, it is everything to oithers.
2) There is no point comparing the Brompton to performance folders. It was designed as a commute-and-go bike and remains that to this very day. At this it excels and is much loved by many owners who ahve bought it. While it could be used for touring by a relatively fit person or its range extended through some modifications, there are bikes that fit such a purpose better. Brompton even refer people to check out the competition as well before buying one of their bikes. They have no issues with competitors except 'knock-offs' of their design, The debate about copying Brompton has been covered on this forum already and is an interesting one.
3) Dahon is a bigger company than Brompton. Brompton has really only taken off in the 1990's as demand for folders has grown and grown. They do not manipulate supply. Tthey make a choice to manufacture from the UK and are perfectly happy to remain a smaller company. A choice that any entrepreneur is entitled to make. On this basis the little bike has become so popular that it has led to excess demand. I agree the price is high but there is no way it is due to market manipulation. Brompton have a higher cost base and are entitled to choose this route they want. Brompton only have power over their own brand. No-one has to pay their prices but lots seem happy to do so for various reasons.
4) Dahon have yet to make a "16 folder as good as the Brompton despite claims to the contrary. In fact as you move towards the Curve SL it starts entering the territory of the Brompton price range in £'s. As Jur once said he doubts the Curl if and when it comes out will be a cheap bike. As far as most of us are concerned both Brompton and Dahon contribute some wonderful bikes to the market. Dahon possibly make too many changes and Brompton too little in product development (That has improved a bit since 2000). However, at the end of the day they both contribute fine products to the market overall and have a good brand reputation.

Therefore knocking Brompton's strategy as a company or labelling niche range as old-fashioned is both misinformed and represents a failure to understand what the bike really represents. And before anyone decides to rand thart I'm one of those bigoted Bromptonauts, I have a Brompton, Downtube FS, a Dutch folder and covet a Dahon! :)

Oh mei ... there is a lot of rubbish in this thread .. alloy versus steel, chain here and there, new development versus old tried and true.... I will answer only to two issues :

Point one:
Dahon was granted a new patent for this folding bike , this in itself prooves the point, that they have not copied anything Brompton. Dahon is not out to destroy Brompton, they are merely looking out for themselves and their dealers - customers as they demand fresh and new ideas to make their wish bikes better than before. If Dahon would not heavily invest in progress, than they would not pay their R@D department big bucks and they still would sell their old foldabike. Which was cool at the time, but is nothing even close to todays folders. And although Dahon sells probably 50 to 100 times as many folders than Brompton, the total marketshare of ALL folders is below 1 % ... there is room to grow for all folding bike companies WITHOUT killing themselves

Point two
In their Chinese plant Dahon pays the highest wages , they have very low turnover in employees , they offer housing, sports, child activities for the kids of the employees , and than some. Mr David Hon the founder and owner lives in the same compound and has been seen playing hoops with his employees. The Chinese Dahon factory cannot put in the same basket as many other Chinese workplaces. Not by a longshot. Hearing this political unqualified drabble hurts when you know that the Hons are trying to make a real big difference in this regard.

thor
who happens to be a Dahon dealer, quite a lot because the social engagement of the Hon family , its not all about money !

Nice to hear Thor, very informative post.

Actually both Dahon and Brompton are quite socially responsible companies. Dodn't know so much about Dahon in China and that's excellent to hear. Says a lot for most of the quality bikes they manufacture, especially in 20" bikes.

I totally agree the Curl is not exactly a Brompton rip-off just a new bike targeting a similar segment. Good luck to them and I'm sure most of us can't wait to see it!

Actually both Dahon and Brompton are quite socially responsible companies. Dodn't know so much about Dahon in China and that's excellent to hear. Says a lot for most of the quality bikes they manufacture, especially in 20" bikes.

Really makes you think about who is the one primarily motivated by money (Re: rbkinz talking about how discouraging companies like Dahon from continuing to practice social responsibility in China is better for his own job security).

I, for one, was aware of the way Dahon treats its workers, which is why I wouldn't pay a penny more for a Brompton just because it's built in the west (in fact, I may even pay a penny less).

.
.
.

To bring things back on topic I don't expect the Curl will be significantly cheaper than the Brompton either. What I do expect is that a used Curl will be significantly cheaper than a used Brompton and the inevitable 8 speed 20 pound Curl XXVII will be significantly cheaper than Leonard Rubin's Brompton.

Really makes you think about who is the one primarily motivated by money (Re: rbkinz talking about how discouraging companies like Dahon from continuing to practice social responsibility in China is better for his own job security).

I, for one, was aware of the way Dahon treats its workers, which is why I wouldn't pay a penny more for a Brompton just because it's built in the west (in fact, I may even pay a penny less).

Yes sure but it's wrong to imply that Brompton are rip-off merchants. The price is very much take it or leave it. Brompton treat their workers well in London and many over here are proud to buy into an indigenous British brand. They are not a high-profit company. Of course why should you over there? It's simply a matter of choice.

Yes sure but it's wrong to imply that Brompton are rip-off merchants. The price is very much take it or leave it. Brompton treat their workers well in London and many over here are proud to buy into an indigenous British brand. They are not a high-profit company. Of course why should you over there? It's simply a matter of choice.

You're right, they aren't ripoff merchants at all and I didn't mean to imply that. :thumb:

You're right, they aren't ripoff merchants at all and I didn't mean to imply that. :thumb:

But I so agree that folding bikes are more competitive in the US and you are therefore mroe price sensitive. Perhaps the Brits take too much over-pricing 'on the chin'

You guys think fuel prices are bad. Over here it's $11 a gallon of which a lot goes to the government. People complain but never act.

Still I find my Brompton pays for itself pretty quickly and I got on a government tax scheme my employer participates in and I saved around 31% off the price and pay over 12 monthly instalments. I couldn't have bought it out of my normal monthly cash flow.

Oh mei ... there is a lot of rubbish in this thread .. Point one:
Dahon was granted a new patent for this folding bike , this in itself prooves the point, that they have not copied anything Brompton. Dahon is not out to destroy Brompton, they are merely looking out for themselves and their dealers - customers as they demand fresh and new ideas to make their wish bikes better than before. If Dahon would not heavily invest in progress, than they would not pay their R@D department big bucks and they still would sell their old foldabike. Which was cool at the time, but is nothing even close to todays folders. And although Dahon sells probably 50 to 100 times as many folders than Brompton, the total marketshare of ALL folders is below 1 % ... there is room to grow for all folding bike companies WITHOUT killing themselves
.

I thought it was a patent application that was published ? Otherwise good points - its disapointing that all Folders only account for 1% of sales - is that in the USA or worldwide ... eitherway not exactly the tipping point :(

I thought it was a patent application that was published ? Otherwise good points - its disapointing that all Folders only account for 1% of sales - is that in the USA or worldwide ... eitherway not exactly the tipping point

I think that proportion will change over the next decade.

Brompton were only ever in danger of exiting the market or actually not entering it in the 1980's due to capital funding issues. I think Andrew Ritchie is a great character. Brompton continue to make one of the finest compact folders. You are so mistaken saying Brompton charge high prices because of market

I bought a pared down one last year for $650 new. Now the cheapeast alternative has raised price to minimum $1100. Do you think all raw material prices have doubled in the past year? Or they were doing so poorly last year to double this? There are marketing games at hand, they know that there is limited supply and people are willing to pay the higher prices because there are no alternatives. Now I'm happy to see that there will be apple:apple alternatives at lower prices. I bought these only, and only because they have the most important spec for folding bikes : smallest folded size. Try getting 2 of anything else in a european trunk without major disassembly. ps - I had read that back around 1998 they had no supplier for 3 speed hubs that would fit in their very tight design specs, and as a result were in danger. Did I read something incorrectly?

Hi Jagatron,

you say:"... Do you think all raw material prices have doubled in the past year?...They know that there is limited supply and people are willing to pay the higher prices because there are no alternatives. ...I bought these only, and only because they have the most important spec for folding bikes : smallest folded size. ...I had read that back around 1998 they had no supplier for 3 speed hubs that would fit in their very tight design specs, and as a result were in danger. Did I read something incorrectly?"
I would say concerning those points: raw material prizes eg. for steel have certainly been going up quite a lot recently and will more. But even that considered your stated prize jump is big.
Hmhm... maybe something to do with the dollar? For example here in Germany the prizes for the brompton are quite stable. 1 year ago I was seriously looking to buy a brompton. The cheapest new Companion C3 (that is "the pared down" type) by then was 650,-Euro. Actually now one could buy the Companion C3 for 680 ,- Euro, so only about 5% prize rising.

Or are you comparing two different models with different specs? Over here one can still buy the Companion but as far as I know the Companion is going out of production or perhaps has been already and is perhaps not an option in USA any more?

There maybe limited supply in USA. Who knows wether bromptonfactory or dealers or what else is responsible for that? All I can say is that over here it was much worse about until summer last year = a long waiting list. (I read due to raising demand and the need to hire and train new staff). If I order now a brompton "ala carte" it is 4 weeks until delivery. If I would chose a standard model delivery within 1 week max.

Why are you saying there are no alternatives? Is brompton still the smallest folder, I thought that was the CarryMe or even A-bike? For example at the moment I would like to testride a pink CarryMe. Its not possible :-(
Still I don't wonder if PacificCycles manipulate the market, perhaps I should?

You have read correctly that there have been trouble with the suppliers of the hubs (it was in 2000) see: http://www.bikebiz.com/news/19831/Brompton-re-specs-Sturmey-Archer

regards
Somnatash

I bought a pared down one last year for $650 new. Now the cheapeast alternative has raised price to minimum $1100. Do you think all raw material prices have doubled in the past year? Or they were doing so poorly last year to double this? There are marketing games at hand, they know that there is limited supply and people are willing to pay the higher prices because there are no alternatives. Now I'm happy to see that there will be apple:apple alternatives at lower prices. I bought these only, and only because they have the most important spec for folding bikes : smallest folded size. Try getting 2 of anything else in a european trunk without major disassembly. ps - I had read that back around 1998 they had no supplier for 3 speed hubs that would fit in their very tight design specs, and as a result were in danger. Did I read something incorrectly?

It is not Brompton manipulating prices, they don't have that kind of market power. You really need to know a lot more about Brompton's supply chain and final market dynamics before jumping to conclusions like that! Besides, Brompton was always a premium proposition and lots of people still buy into it. Even you did albeit reluctantly. Nevertheless there are substitutes that fit in cases too but you obviously found Brompton the best in terms of ergonomics.

They were never in dange rin 1998 but had a serious supply issue. Even Dahon can have long waiting lists on certain models on occasion.

But I so agree that folding bikes are more competitive in the US and you are therefore mroe price sensitive. Perhaps the Brits take too much over-pricing 'on the chin'

You guys think fuel prices are bad. Over here it's $11 a gallon of which a lot goes to the government. People complain but never act.

Still I find my Brompton pays for itself pretty quickly and I got on a government tax scheme my employer participates in and I saved around 31% off the price and pay over 12 monthly instalments. I couldn't have bought it out of my normal monthly cash flow.

Woa! It sounds to me as if you are on one hand complaining about gas taxes, and on the other about the fact that those gas taxes are subsidizing your bicycle purchase. :)

In the US, it can be argued that there is a de facto subsidy for gas and that the Europeans have it about right. Roads do not come cheaply, nor do bridges, tunnels, and so forth. Some estimate that gas should be about $8 US to pay for all that infrastructure. (Or subsidize bike purchase programs.)

Hopefully I'll get the copy of japanese book in days. I'll post some more information soon.

BTW... I think brompton should be made in taiwan or china like other bicycles. Virtually almost all of well-known bicycle frames (Colgnago, Pinarello, Bianchi, Cerverlo...) are now made in asia. You can get a ultra light (sub 1 kilo) carbon frame at under $600 nowadays, and get some ultegra-level road bike at under $1000. And the cheapest brompton is $1100.. :[

Yes it is a foldable commuter bike and should not be compared with performance bikes. But then, why should a commuter bike be hand made in UK, paying sky-high wages?

Hi Jagatron,

I would say concerning those points: raw material prizes eg. for steel have certainly been going up quite a lot recently and will more. But even that considered your stated prize jump is big.
Hmhm... maybe something to do with the dollar? For example here in Germany the prizes for the brompton

Somnatash

It could very well be with the dollar. I work for a global company and just hitting US forecasts (if company forecasts are made in €) is very challenging with the currency itself requiring 15% growth at times in one year. This is with the C3 model, it is no longer available in the US. Cheapest next model is $1100, which is a stepup (Brompton M3L from Calhoun), roughly the equivalent price $:€ ($1100/€680 you mention), but more features than C3. Like many people, I don't want anything but the basics, but that now no longer exists in the US. I take advantage of trips to US to save money.

Yes - I'm quite happy with the products, but they could better on a few things that are still annoying for that price that don't reflect continuing innovation. Brakes aren't great, handlebars look very old fashioned, some of the proprietary parts don't seem necessary at all (why not adapt some type of derailleur to work as chain tensioner), limitation in gearing and inability to change that inexpensively. The rear fork design is so tight to only allow max 16t cog, which forces one to avoid the new 8 speed sturmey archer (min cog 18t I think), and then you're stuck with a weird 2x3spd in their 6 speed model that costs a lot for that upgrade. This is where Brompton forces you to stick with old ideas because they don't want to redesign their rear triangle by a centimeter to take advantage of new components that could give a much greater overall advantage. And it shows: their folly in ~1998 shows that their sticking to their proprietary designs can bite them in fouling their SCM.

Sorry, Downtube has received great laurels in these forums for utilisation of outsourcing and not employing welders in Manhattan. It's time for there to be another offering that takes advantage of global economies, or some of the stoics here can continue ensuring everything else they used is also locally manufactured. It's amazing it's taken 15 years since expiration of Brompton patent / realization of its design [foldability] prowess.

Hopefully I'll get the copy of japanese book in days. I'll post some more information soon.

BTW... I think brompton should be made in taiwan or china like other bicycles. Virtually almost all of well-known bicycle frames (Colgnago, Pinarello, Bianchi, Cerverlo...) are now made in asia. You can get a ultra light (sub 1 kilo) carbon frame at under $600 nowadays, and get some ultegra-level road bike at under $1000. And the cheapest brompton is $1100.. :[

Yes it is a foldable commuter bike and should not be compared with performance bikes. But then, why should a commuter bike be hand made in UK, paying sky-high wages?

Am I being naive here but if you don't like the prices, then you don't have to buy the bike? Brompton are a low volume, high quality business based in the UK because they want to be. Other bike companies are based in lower waged country's (like Dahon) and have more of a volume based business.

Thats not to say Dahon or other's are lower quality, its just to say that all companies have different cultures and strategies and you choose whether or not you want to buy into them?

Dahon bringing out a new folding bike.. great. More choice to all of us :)

Yes it is a foldable commuter bike and should not be compared with performance bikes. But then, why should a commuter bike be hand made in UK, paying sky-high wages?

Firstly because it is Brompton's choice to pursue a 'Made in England' strategy to date. Secondly, because if every company in the US outsourced abroad you wouldn't have enough GDP and income to afford such bikes! Would you like Bike Friday to shift all their production abroad too? Since when were they cheap? I'm sure some many Americans are as proud of Bike Friday as some Brits are of Brompton. Why should everyone jump on the offshoring bandwagon unless their business model and market dictates they must do this in order to survive? Can't you see how much long-term vulnerability there is in the US economy because of over-importation and excessive offshoring as it is? Don't get me wrong I'm not against offshoring in some contexts but it is over-used. There's plenty of room for both Dahon's and Brompton's styles of strategy.

Thats not to say Dahon or other's are lower quality, its just to say that all companies have different cultures and strategies and you choose whether or not you want to buy into them?Exactly! I wouldn't even call Brompton the most mercenary company in thw world. Turn to the oil, insurance companies and banks if you want to witness rip-off strategies. In fact cycle manuacturers including Brompton, Bike Friday and Dahon are quite benign and customer oriented compared to some of the big behemoths.

The rear fork design is so tight to only allow max 16t cog, which forces one to avoid the new 8 speed sturmey archer (min cog 18t I think)...

Well, I have a brompton with the 8speed sturmey Archer with a 19t cog (albeit not with the brand new Sturmey Archer with wider gear range which is not yet on the market, here in Germany at least). That is possible because the hub has a different chainline.

But true, if one wants to mount a 18t cog (for example to mount a Highspeed Wide Gear sprocket 12t-18t) one would have to file the tube of the rear triangle. Which has been done more than once and seems to be no big issue.

Well, I have a brompton with the 8speed sturmey Archer with a 19t cog (albeit not with the brand new Sturmey Archer with wider gear range which is not yet on the market, here in Germany at least). That is possible because the hub has a different chainline.


Poser lol! :P

Poser lol! :P

Yeah, what a big bouncer that I am:D

For excuse I can blame the brompton to be responsible for that. With all the:" Boah, cool bike!" yells when I pass by its easy to get syked up :ride:

Bouncer = poser in german lol?

So tell me does that pantour work on smoothing out the front ride Sonja?

Bouncer = poser in german lol?

So tell me does that pantour work on smoothing out the front ride Sonja?

Yes, ride is smooothly. But of course I have no direct comparison (except a short test ride) since the bike came with it. Still considering a hub change?

No very happy with the six speed as it has ideal range for my needs and is efficient. Maybe one day I'll shell out the cash for a hub like the new Shimano Alfine 8 speed. I tried this hub on a test ride of the new Dahon Cadenza 08 and it really was so quiet and smooth. Wonder if it would fit hmmm?

But I covet a Pantour and wheel rebuild on the front. You were right not to get the Son hub and choose the Pantour. The rear dynamo works perfectly fine and the back light with its capacitor is very good. I fitted Ergon grips too, really like these. I cut the Ergons down a bit to fit the Brompton handlebars. :)

Well, I have a brompton with the 8speed sturmey Archer with a 19t cog (albeit not with the brand new Sturmey Archer with wider gear range which is not yet on the market, here in Germany at least). That is possible because the hub has a different chainline.

But true, if one wants to mount a 18t cog (for example to mount a Highspeed Wide Gear sprocket 12t-18t) one would have to file the tube of the rear triangle. Which has been done more than once and seems to be no big issue.

Hearing how everyone can make these modifications without sacrificing the fold it makes one wonder: Why are Bromptons build with such tight clearances to begin with? In my mind just one more hoop to jump through in order to enjoy a Brompton.

Firstly because it is Brompton's choice to pursue a 'Made in England' strategy to date. Secondly, because if every company in the US outsourced abroad you wouldn't have enough GDP and income to afford such bikes! Would you like Bike Friday to shift all their production abroad too? Since when were they cheap? I'm sure some many Americans are as proud of Bike Friday as some Brits are of Brompton. Why should everyone jump on the offshoring bandwagon unless their business model and market dictates they must do this in order to survive? Can't you see how much long-term vulnerability there is in the US economy because of over-importation and excessive offshoring as it is? Don't get me wrong I'm not against offshoring in some contexts but it is over-used. There's plenty of room for both Dahon's and Brompton's styles of strategy.

While I'm no economist, I really don't think it's fair to attribute the woes of the US economy to excessive importation or offshoring. If you recall the Japanese economy found itself in a similar pickle ten or fifteen years ago and their importation habits were exactly the opposite.

Dahon consistently gives a better warranty than Brompton ; how can you make claims that Dahon is making throwaway bikes? Brompton almost fell out of the market because of their small size and inability to secure someone to make a proprietary hub for them a few years ago. Although I have 2 Bromptons, I bought them because there was no competition. There are too many areas where refinement is necessary and the price has been playing with the lack of competition in the market. Your posts on this matter show blind loyalty rather than giving an opportunity for a better competitor to come into this specific very compact genre.

My first folding bike was a Dahon Presto Lite (I wanted the lightest I could get). It lasted 4 months before I brought a Brompton, because :-

- 'Under' engineered. Frame too flexible ; components too light - this puppy was not built to last
- Which indeed it did not - the back wheel split (I weight 78 kg)
- And then it took 6 months to get a spare.

The brompton? Well it's going to last a long time (nearly three years/7000 miles with no major issues so far - and I've been run over on it!) - and spares are readily available.

Dahon's drive to make new products is marketing driven - if they make such good bikes why do they have to change them every year?

I agree Brompton could do with being a tad lighter. But It's not that heavy, and it's much less likely to let you down.

My first folding bike was a Dahon Presto Lite (I wanted the lightest I could get). It lasted 4 months before I brought a Brompton, because :-

- 'Under' engineered. Frame too flexible ; components too light - this puppy was not built to last
- Which indeed it did not - the back wheel split (I weight 78 kg)
- And then it took 6 months to get a spare.

The brompton? Well it's going to last a long time (nearly three years/7000 miles with no major issues so far - and I've been run over on it!) - and spares are readily available.

Dahon's drive to make new products is marketing driven - if they make such good bikes why do they have to change them every year?

I agree Brompton could do with being a tad lighter. But It's not that heavy, and it's much less likely to let you down.

Cakewalk backs up my point that Brompton components are made for durability not fancy road performance. Also the bike is designed for compact folding not to be the lightest on the market. The only issue here is that Brompton's titanium bikes are a feeble and overly expensive attempt at weight reduction. £440 extra for the titanium frame option? No thanks!

A bit harsh on Dahon though. You can't really generalise Dahon's entire range as being representative of their overall quality. Their mid to top-end range bikes are actually very good and show reliability and longevity in the environments they are designed for. In fact both Dahon and Brompton have improved their bikes significantly in the last 10 years through incremental innovations. The only difference is Dahon is the overall segment leader and Brompton even more niche in what it offers.

I absolutely love my Brompton and would defend it to the hilt. However there are most definitely some Dahons I would covet too! :D

What does a Brommie weigh?

* aaaarg * must get Brompton * uuuuuuuuuuunhghnhhhh :twitchy:

What does a Brommie weigh?

* aaaarg * must get Brompton * uuuuuuuuuuunhghnhhhh :twitchy:

9.7 Kg to about 12 Kg. Your kind of basic Brompton is 11.4 Kg (M3L - including mudguard, bell, pump and reflectors).

What does a Brommie weigh?

* aaaarg * must get Brompton * uuuuuuuuuuunhghnhhhh :twitchy:

The lightest with no aftermarket components: titanium, no rack, no fenders, s-typ- stem, Stelvio tires and single speed (called "Purist") weighs ~ 8,7 kg =19,1 pounds.

Add 370g for fenders and rack, add 145g for 2speed, add 915g for nothing ti, add 150g for longer seatpost, add 250g for telescopic seatpost....

A stock 2 speed with fenders, ti, S-bar is 9,7kg
A 3speed modell M-Typ-bar is M3L-X is ~10kg = 22 pounds

A ti 6speed modell P-Typ-bar is P6R-X is 11,8 kg = 26 pounds (inclusive rack, Fenders, lights, SON Dynohub.

The heaviest, a sixspeed with fenders, rack, lights, Dynamo, Schwalbe Marathon tires, without ti would be araound ~ 12,7 kg ~ 28 pounds


But Jur, you have a merc right? Why dont go the "littlepixel-way": use your merc-alu-frame and upgrade it over time with brompton parts for all the rest. That would result in a lighter bike than either brompton or merc standard.

The lightest with no aftermarket components: titanium, no rack, no fenders, s-typ- stem, Stelvio tires and single speed (called "Purist") weighs ~ 8,7 kg =19,1 pounds.

Add 370g for fenders and rack, add 145g for 2speed, add 915g for nothing ti, add 150g for longer seatpost, add 250g for telescopic seatpost....

A stock 2 speed with fenders, ti, S-bar is 9,7kg
A 3speed modell M-Typ-bar is M3L-X is ~10kg = 22 pounds

A ti 6speed modell P-Typ-bar is P6R-X is 11,8 kg = 26 pounds (inclusive rack, Fenders, lights, SON Dynohub.

The heaviest, a sixspeed with fenders, rack, lights, Dynamo, Schwalbe Marathon tires, without ti would be araound ~ 12,7 kg ~ 28 pounds



But Jur, you have a merc right? Why dont go the "littlepixel-way": use your merc-alu-frame and upgrade it over time with brompton parts for all the rest. That would result in a lighter bike than either brompton or merc standard.


Very wise advice. :thumb: