Road Bike Racing - Ethics question

On the last lap of a circuit race (2 mile loop).
There's just one mile to go.
You're in a two-man breakaway with a gap that is probably going to hold out.
The guy you're riding with turns and asks, "Is this it??" meaning, is this the last lap?

He's obviously broken the cardinal rule: never lose track of the lap count.

Do you...
A. say "I don't know." which basically means "yes"
B. say "No, I think there's two to go." which can be construed as confusion, or
C. say "yes"

Happened today. I chose B, and felt badly. I thought he was playing games, so I played one, too.
What would you do in that situation?

What would you do in that situation?

Shrug.

Attack when he turns around to talk?

i wouldn't be a dick and i'd tell him it was the last lap

i wouldn't be a dick and i'd tell him it was the last lap

That's assuming he wasn't being a dick and playing a game as well.

I wouldn't tell the other person.

It is a race. We are both there to win. It is his own fault for not counting the laps. Telling him the wrong answer is not the right thing to do, but shrugging is.

On the last lap of a circuit race (2 mile loop).
There's just one mile to go.
You're in a two-man breakaway with a gap that is probably going to hold out.
The guy you're riding with turns and asks, "Is this it??" meaning, is this the last lap?

He's obviously broken the cardinal rule: never lose track of the lap count.

Do you...
A. say "I don't know." which basically means "yes"
B. say "No, I think there's two to go." which can be construed as confusion, or
C. say "yes"

Happened today. I chose B, and felt badly. I thought he was playing games, so I played one, too.
What would you do in that situation?

Yeah, you gotta be cognizant of where you are in the race.

"No speaka da Inglese"

I would respond .. GO GO GO

(you get what you want and not lying about it)

Say nothing, dial it up to 400W and drop his arse.

Act like I can't hear him.

thats quite a crappy position to be in... thankfully i'll never be put in that situation.

Seriously, if I'm ever lucky enough to be in that position, I'd tell him the truth, roll up aside, hold out my hand, and say "Good luck."

A couple of years ago, in the TdF, there were two guys who'd held off the peleton all afternoon and when they hit the city limit, that's what they did and I just thought it was the coolest, most gentlemanly thing I'd seen in sport.

i wouldn't be a dick and i'd tell him it was the last lap

Ditto.

Happened today. I chose B, and felt badly. I thought he was playing games, so I played one, too.
What would you do in that situation?

Just curious, what game could he have been playing?

My bike racing is all about ego. Part of boosting that ego is beating people fairly or at least losing fairly (as I've never won). I would have said 'This is it."

I think I would tell him.
I also like the attack while he yells back at you idea. That seems like a legitimate move.

Was there not a clear bell indicating the final lap? If there was, he didn't deserve the win if he couldn't pay attention and remember for, what, the 5 minutes it takes to get back to the finish.

It's happened before and my response was "Yep - Good luck, man."

Seriously, if I'm ever lucky enough to be in that position, I'd tell him the truth, roll up aside, hold out my hand, and say "Good luck."

A couple of years ago, in the TdF, there were two guys who'd held off the peleton all afternoon and when they hit the city limit, that's what they did and I just thought it was the coolest, most gentlemanly thing I'd seen in sport.

That's the difference between pros that know what's going on, and amateurs that do this for fun and exercise.

When you race against the same teams and it's essentially a closed shop (like a pro series) if you behave badly, the peloton will dish out justice. It can get real ugly, too.

On the last lap of a circuit race (2 mile loop).
There's just one mile to go.
You're in a two-man breakaway with a gap that is probably going to hold out.
The guy you're riding with turns and asks, "Is this it??" meaning, is this the last lap?

He's obviously broken the cardinal rule: never lose track of the lap count.

Do you...
A. say "I don't know." which basically means "yes"
B. say "No, I think there's two to go." which can be construed as confusion, or
C. say "yes"

Happened today. I chose B, and felt badly. I thought he was playing games, so I played one, too.
What would you do in that situation?


Therefore you know you didn't do the right thing. And if you won, whenever you look at whatever hardware you got, you'd know that it wasn't straight up.

....and what happened next?

...and did he yell at you?

wouldn't matter

C.

Of course I can't hear anything on a bike anyway (hearing loss), so I'd really be saying 'What?!?'.

d) I just shhhush pcad

...you'd know that it wasn't straight up.

It was straight up. They were both in the same race and had the same opportunity to know what lap they were on.

Now if somehow EventServices was secretly told that it was the last lap and the other dude had no way of knowing, it wouldn't have been fair. Not the case though so perfectly fair. Maybe not honorable, and he may get some payback at a future race, but it was definitely fair.

In reality, I made the B response mostly out of sarcasm because it was so plainly clear that it was the last lap.


Part of boosting that ego is beating people fairly or at least losing fairly

I didn't get that opportunity.

As it turned out, one of his teammates came across the gap on the last hill, attacked us, and made for the finish. That move effectively dropped his teammate and made it a two-up sprint without him.
So the end result is moot. He should have more issue with his teammate coming across and then dropping him instead of helping him win.

It was straight up. They were both in the same race and had the same opportunity to know what lap they were on.

Now if somehow EventServices was secretly told that it was the last lap and the other dude had no way of knowing, it wouldn't have been fair. Not the case though so perfectly fair. Maybe not honorable, and he may get some payback at a future race, but it was definitely fair.

I disagree. Had he said "Maybe. Maybe not. Nanny-nanny boo-boo," then it comes down to paying attention. But ES deliberately misled/flat out lied to the other guy.

This is somewhere between acting tired to avoid working (falling off the back, etc. -- a legitimate tactic, though I don't care for it) and saying "I won't contest the sprint" and then doing so.

For me it would have depended on how well we'd worked together during the break.

If he'd done his fair share I probably would have told him. If I thought he was sandbagging and forcing me to work harder (and drive the break), or had been playing some other games, I would have lied.

wouldn't matter

that's confidence!

I would have nodded and assuming I could eek out a word said "yea".

That's the difference between pros that know what's going on, and amateurs that do this for fun and exercise.

When you race against the same teams and it's essentially a closed shop (like a pro series) if you behave badly, the peloton will dish out justice. It can get real ugly, too.

in my experiece it's same at the amateur level, at least for me. I do nearly all my races in district so I'm racing against the same competition week in and week out. I like and respect the majority of the guys I race against and wouldnt want to damage whatever credible reputation I have by behaving badly. There are guys that do sloppy stuff or act like d-heads and they dont get much cooperation from the pack - wheels dont open up, moves are shut down more rapidly, etc.

At the end of the day, I would rather have folks shake my hand and say good racing while finishing also ran than win place or show and have everyone say what a d-head.

Let me go and find out for you.

I didn't get that opportunity.

As it turned out, one of his teammates came across the gap on the last hill, attacked us, and made for the finish. That move effectively dropped his teammate and made it a two-up sprint without him.


And...? AND...? Don't keep us in suspense, man!

mmm...honor versus idiocy, amusing how the board recognizes one and denies the other... ;)

C.

Of course I can't hear anything on a bike anyway (hearing loss), so I'd really be saying 'What?!?'.

Me too. And I can empathize with the fellow. I led the pack the other day thinking I was trying to bridge to a breakaway. Had no idea what was going on. Deaf and dumb is an interesting way to race. :twitchy:

mmm...honor versus idiocy, amusing how the board recognizes one and denies the other... ;)

good point, but idiocy can be accidental, honor is a decision.

Deaf and dumb is an interesting way to race. :twitchy:

"All the blood is in your legs and you can't even count two plus two" - Jens

If you've never lost track of stuff you're not riding hard enough.

This is not an ethical question. It's about being fair.

I can't tell you how to feel about this. But here's the litmus test. If you lied to him and won because of it, would you feel good about it?

I would drope the hamer and let that be my answer.

If I only could!

I wont go with the "he should know" answer as some one who has very recently sprinted with one lap to go cause I was so knackered from the break and the heat. There are other factors that play into it.



If he'd done his fair share I probably would have told him. If I thought he was sandbagging and forcing me to work harder (and drive the break), or had been playing some other games, I would have lied.

These are good points. It is a question of honor and if the other rider is being less than honorable it would dictate different action.

If you felt good about what you did, you wouldn't be asking the board for approval and then justifying your actions when you didn't get it.

It was straight up. They were both in the same race and had the same opportunity to know what lap they were on.

Now if somehow EventServices was secretly told that it was the last lap and the other dude had no way of knowing, it wouldn't have been fair. Not the case though so perfectly fair. Maybe not honorable, and he may get some payback at a future race, but it was definitely fair.

Sorry, if it's not honorable, then it's not straight up.

I can easily tell you are not a golfer, or if you are and someone asks what you shot, your answer is, "about a (fill in score here)." Example...a friend of mine is in a tournament and asked the other player to move his ball marker away from the line of his putt. As the other player was replacing his ball for his putt, he forgot to return the marker and was about to putt from the wrong spot, which is a 2 stroke penalty. My friend, seeing this had a choice...let him go ahead so he could win the hole, or tell the other player of his error, saving him 2 strokes. He did the honorable thing...even though it was the responsibility of the other player to remember to move back to the original spot. BTW...the guy made the putt, won the hole, and beat my friend 1 up.

I note a lot less "honor" in society today.

My guess is, if you could ever get good enough to race for a number of hours where there is a feed zone or people stop for "a natural break", you might be tempted to attack. "Hey, it's their problem they had to take a leak."

in my experiece it's same at the amateur level, at least for me. I do nearly all my races in district so I'm racing against the same competition week in and week out. I like and respect the majority of the guys I race against and wouldnt want to damage whatever credible reputation I have by behaving badly. There are guys that do sloppy stuff or act like d-heads and they dont get much cooperation from the pack - wheels dont open up, moves are shut down more rapidly, etc.

At the end of the day, I would rather have folks shake my hand and say good racing while finishing also ran than win place or show and have everyone say what a d-head.

Very well said.

There's not that many guys racing in one circuit all the time against, basically, the same teams week in and week out. Most of the guys I know are all over the place racing, maybe having 1-3 teamates along. But you clearly get it.

I may not be an accomplished bike racer like the rest of you, but to me this has nothing to do with competence and all to do with class, honor and integrity. My choice would have been to tell the truth - "Yeah, dude, it's the last lap, you ready to party?"

If you have to ask about lying, or if the thought of lying about something comes into mind, that should tell you something about your self.

When you take a hard look back at yourself whether now or in years to come are you proud of your actions?

Only you can answer that, no one is here to judge you. But yeah.. your a ....
=)

Besides what game would he be playing?
Me: is this it?
you: yes
me: haha, fooled you!
WTF?

"All the blood is in your legs and you can't even count two plus two" - Jens

If you've never lost track of stuff you're not riding hard enough.

I became so confused in a crit this spring I thought the laps to go counter said 13 instead of 3. After 4 more laps, when everyone around me was slowing/stopping, I asked another rider. "Did we get pulled?"
He looked at me like I was insane. It took me awhile to figure out what had happened.

If you felt good about what you did, you wouldn't be asking the board for approval and then justifying your actions when you didn't get it.

I don't seek approval. Just asking what you would do. You answered.
Just so you know, we (he, his team and I) were good natured about it afterward because it really had no bearing on the outcome. The guy learned the lesson. The race was decided elsewhere.

D. Say nothing

I would tell the truth if he was doing his fair share of work and not being a dick. Otherwise I would tell "I don't know". I definitely wouldn't lie. As I heard someone say at one time "Karma, it's a *****".

[Off topic]

Hey Fibberpants-

You're not, by any chance, going to be announcing at this year's Tour of Utah (http://www.tourofutah.com/) are you? I need to get my book signed.

[Back on topic.]

+1000 that my answer would depend on how hard he worked.


if he was there, pulling his fair share- then he deserves a FAIR answer

if he was being a suckerfish and leached onto you... then screw him. he was playing games with you for the whole break and its time to turn the tables.


now, if he wasnt pulling his fair share because he was weaker.... then it really doesnt matter as he wouldnt have it for the sprint anyway.



if he played fair- tell him the truth and let the best man win.

if he leached onto you... then mess with him in kind.

Because of what the OP said in the race, they guy that was pulling him sat up to wait for the pack because he'd already been out front pulling for two laps (2 mile laps), this allowed the OP to get away and win the race pretty much uncontested.

It was a dirty move.