Advocacy & Safety - Where to ride on 65MPH 2-lane highway?

Well folks, I'm a newbie at bicycling in traffic. Thanks to everyone for your tips in response to my earlier question about URL="http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=419902"]rural cycling safety[/URL], I've started commuting to work by bike.

There's been one thing that concerns me. I ride 2 miles on a state highway. This highway is 2-lane, 65MPH speed limit. The paved shoulder extends about 6-12 inches to the right of the white line, though an unpaved shoulder extends approximately a lane width past that (it's grass). The road is mostly straight, though has one spot of a gentle curve (gentle enough that passing is allowed there).

My 10-mile ride has been going OK, except for one situation. When I'm on this highway, a vehicle comes up behind me, and there is oncoming traffic in the other lane, the vehicle behind me will try to pass without moving into the other lane. Occasionally I will notice the oncoming traffic move to their right (my left) to try to help this arrangement. This has led to a couple of vehicles passing me in what, to me, is a rather close distance.

I normally ride approximately on the white line, or a little to the right of it. I wear a high-visibility green/yellow jersey, have a bright flasher on my bike and a Superflash on my helmet. I do not believe that I have ever escaped being noticed. Drivers are making a conscious decision to pass me that close. However, when there is no oncoming traffic, they usually give me lots of room, sometimes even the entire lane.

So, here's the question: where should I ride in the lane 1) in normal conditions, and 2) when I notice the above situation about to occur?

My fears about riding down the middle of the lane are two-fold: first, I might annoy drivers that are on the road during my commute time, leading to less considerate treatment in the future. Also, I run the risk of being hit by a driver that expects bicyclists to be farther right, and therefore can't or won't slow down in time to avoid hitting me. I don't know how well-founded these fears are.

I have searched this forum on this already, and have seen some references to vehicular cycling (I'm not exactly sure what that is, but it seems controversial). But it seems all the other posts I've found are dealing with highways that are either much lower speeds, have more than 2 lanes, are wider than this one, etc.

I also ride on an even more narrow, but paved, county road which, while completely straight, does have some hills big enough to warrant no-passing zones. While it has a reasonable amount of traffic, I think I've only been in the situation of having someone behind me and oncoming traffic once, despite riding 6 miles there.

What's the safest thing to do here? Should I behave differently on the county road from the state highway?

Incidentally, for anyone that checked out my original thread, I've only run into someone else once or twice on the unpaved section of my journey, and that worked out fine ;-)

In the middle... (btw, this should really be common knowledge by now)



Each of those two little yellow lines are the designated bike lanes. And it is always ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE - that you remain inside your assigned yellow bike lane-line - because the road to either side of it is reserved for speeding cars.




okay.. best wishes and good luck. :beer:

My choice. If there is not a huge, wide shoulder. Well, I don't. With only a 3 ft. margin from fast moving trucks, one still gets blown away. Less than that. Forget it. / Example of why I demand wide bike designated shoulders. / I once remember a story. A passing truck's mirror hit a cyclist adjacent his helmet. The cyclist died. If a mirror can do that, imagine what It would feel like to be hit by a grill.

On another road.

If the speed limit was reasonable, then I might venture the right side of the lane, but at 65 mph I'm an impediment to normal traffic.

In the middle... (btw, this should really be common knowledge by now)



Each of those two little yellow lines are the designated bike lanes. And it is always ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE - that you remain inside your assigned yellow bike lane-line - because the road to either side of it is reserved for speeding cars.




okay.. best wishes and good luck. :beer:

Erm, I'm confused. Are you suggesting I ride right down the middle of the road, not just the middle of the lane? That strikes me as incredibly dangerous. (In case it wasn't clear, this road does not have designated bike lanes)

For me, this is a tough situation. First, I strongly believe that no undivided two-lane road should ever have a speed limit above about 45mph or 70kph, yet I acknowledge that many do. Second, I equally strongly believe that the public has a fundamental right to mobility and reasonably safe and efficient accommodation for bicyclists and pedestrians from any Point A to any Point B. This second condition is not always met, either. Third, I strongly believe in cycling as a superb form of transportation and aerobic exercise.

Having said all that, I note that I would probably feel very intimidated under the scenario you mention.

Thanks everyone for the honest answers. The alternative to this road is 2 miles on a poorly-maintained sand road. While far less traveled, it also is reduces my speed by half, which is a problem for commuting. In the earlier thread, it seemed that the general advice was to stay visible, and I'd be fine. But obviously, I'd rather be late than dead.

There are other cyclists on the highway, especially on the weekends, which I have seen as a driver. Though I have never seen one at the times I am riding (weekday commuting times). Most of them are riding about where I do.

However, I really hesitate to model my cycling behavior on random cyclists I see on the road. I see too many of them riding on sidewalks or against traffic. (Well, in towns; I haven't seen anyone be *that* boneheaded on the highway yet).

Me, I'd ride about 24-36" LEFT of the white line.

For me, this is a tough situation. First, I strongly believe that no undivided two-lane road should ever have a speed limit above about 45mph .

Agreed.

I have a narrow straight 2 lane road leaving my work. Speed limit is 45 mph but many cars do 55. I ride about 12"-18" from the RH edge. If a car is approaching from the opposite direction, I check my glasses mount mirror, and if a car is likely to catch up with me as the approaching car passes I gradually pull out towards the middle of the lane. Then when the way is clear move back to the side and wave a thank you to the car as it passes. The traffic is not heavy on this road and I have never been hassled for this. If there were several cars lined behind me, I would probably ride on the unpaved shoulder for a while to let them through. On the road with the no-passing zones remember that you may be able to see over the crest of the hills and tell if it is safe for cars to pass. With the large speed difference, cars can get past and back into the lane very quickly. Signal to the cars behind when you think it is safe for them to pass (they may choose not to pass until they can see when it is safe).

Erm, I'm confused. Are you suggesting I ride right down the middle of the road, not just the middle of the lane? That strikes me as incredibly dangerous. (In case it wasn't clear, this road does not have designated bike lanes)



I would just... stay on the stationary if I were you. (stay off the treadmills tho). And always wear a helmet... don't ever take it off. srsly.

Erm, I'm confused. Are you suggesting I ride right down the middle of the road, not just the middle of the lane? That strikes me as incredibly dangerous. (In case it wasn't clear, this road does not have designated bike lanes)

http://www.asmithillustration.com/images/news/whoosh.gif

the road will probably suck no matter what you do. too far to the left and you get honked and screamed at... too far to the right and you get buzzed. either one is incredibly unpleasant, especially on a 65 mph road (which probably means drivers are pushing 70-75).

Ray -
First, feel free to ignore Red. You've probably figured this out already, but he's just being a smart ass.

I'm not crazy about narrow high-speed roads either. If there were a good alternative route, I might take it...but the poorly maintained stretch of sand you mentioned doesn't qualify.

Next move depends on how heavy the traffic is. If it's light to moderate, I would ride a few feet left of the white line, or possibly in the right tire track, and USE A MIRROR. When someone is coming up behind you, wait for them to acknowledge that they see you -- by slowing a little, or moving left -- then move right to give them room. When they pass, you can be near the white line, or even to its right if the shoulder looks safe.

Usually it's safe to simply move aside at the first sign that they see you. If you think you'll need more space in a particular case, you can play a sort of Pavlovian game with the driver. Each time they slow a bit or move a little left, you move a little right. If they want you further right, they can slow a little more and it will happen. Keep the moves crisp, and it's surprising how quickly drivers catch on to the dance.

If you can see that the car is going to reach you at the same time as oncoming cars, and there won't be room for all of you, you've got a couple of different options. If you see the situation taking shape a long time in advance -- so again, a mirror is key here -- then you might be able to adjust your speed so the guy behind you passes well before or after the oncoming cars. If that won't work, just move left into the center of the lane, and give a "slow/stop" signal with your left hand. Again, if you do this decisively, the driver will probably understand that you're saying "don't pass me until these other guys are past", and not "I'm messing with you for no reason." (But don't leave enough room for them to pass you on the right; there are idiots out there who will try.)

If a given situation looks so dicey that none of these options seem safe, then just pull off the road and let the others pass. Obviously you won't want to be doing this too often, but if you're the first one to recognize a truly dangerous dynamic taking shape, then it's good defensive driving to defuse it.

Finally, in any of these cases, if the overtaking driver really is oblivious -- maybe they're drunk, stupid, or text messaging -- then you'll see in your mirror that they're not moving left or slowing. You can still move right at the last moment and be no worse off than if you'd been hugging the right edge all along...or if that's not enough, you can take full evasive action and bail off the road. (For the record, I've never once had to do this.)

Unfortunately, this whole strategy breaks down if traffic is heavy but fast -- essentially, if you're being passed by a continuous stream of vehicles going 60 or 70 mph, with no gaps in which to move left and judge the intentions of the next driver.

In such cases, I would probably take an alternate route even if it was substandard, but would also raise hell with the local road planners until they improve either the main highway or the alternate road. If there's no reasonable second route, you only have two real choices, neither of them good. You can stay right -- near the white line or even right of it -- and hold your line while the herd thunders by. Or you can decide to slow everyone to your speed -- which, for the sake of courtesy, should be as fast as you can reasonably ride -- until you clear the two-mile stretch, or reach a place where you can safely let them pass. The second option is safer, but requires a very thick skin, and might even cause a rush-hour snarl that persists well after you're off the highway. (If it does, though, the blame lies with the road engineers, not with the cyclist.)

Good luck, and I hope things turn out well. (I've found a lot of roads that looked damned near impassible at first, and turned out way more manageable once I started riding them.)

down the centerline

down the centerline



You see... I'm not crazy. :beer:



** edit. I get it now. It was pun. okay

"I'm not crazy. Randya agrees with me!"


- (variously attributed, to a wide variety of crazy people)

Good luck, and I hope things turn out well. (I've found a lot of roads that looked damned near impassible at first, and turned out way more manageable once I started riding them.)

Very good post. Sounds like traffic is quite light on this road and sightlines must be very long given the speed limit, allowing faster traffic plenty of time to see a cyclist up ahead. The sooner they realize that they cannot share the lane with you, the more time they have to figure out what to do.

Thanks much for all the advice, sanitycheck. I recently purchased a helmet mirror, which I find to be quite helpful.

I find it is difficult to tell whether someone is slowing down, or aiming to pass, with a look in the mirror or even turning my head around to look at them. Maybe that will come with practice -- I don't seem to have trouble judging speed of cars when driving a car myself, or maybe there's some trick to it.

As to the lines of sight: I dare say that these 2 miles are part of a 20-mile stretch of road that is completely flat and completely straight with the exception of the one curve that I go around. This is Kansas, so that is rather common :)

Trivia: many county roads in Kansas, and even some state highways, are laid out on a rectangular grid system. Every road is completely straight (excepting obstacles, which aren't that common), and each road is a mile apart. Every 6 miles, north/south roads have a little jog or curve to compensate for the curvature of the earth, so that you always are driving straight north or south. They're that straight.

I guess I should add, traffic isn't as heavy as you describe over here, so I think this is quite doable.

I find it is difficult to tell whether someone is slowing down, or aiming to pass, with a look in the mirror or even turning my head around to look at them. Maybe that will come with practice -- I don't seem to have trouble judging speed of cars when driving a car myself, or maybe there's some trick to it.

This will come with practice. My first week with an eyeglass mounted mirror was a bit irritating. I kept feeling like it was blocking my vision and the view to behind me wasn't telling me much other than someone was there or approaching. I now find it quite easy to take short glances a few seconds apart to get a complete picture of what's going on behind me. I rarely need to "study" the view in my mirror.

There's been one thing that concerns me. I ride 2 miles on a state highway. This highway is 2-lane, 65MPH speed limit. The paved shoulder extends about 6-12 inches to the right of the white line, though an unpaved shoulder extends approximately a lane width past that (it's grass). The road is mostly straight, though has one spot of a gentle curve (gentle enough that passing is allowed there).

You're lucky. Most of the highways near here don't even have a 6 to 12 inch paved shoulder.

I ride about a foot off the white line in the lane and keep my line.... The one exception is if a large truck honks at me, I'll just pull over because in the case there is a 1 percent legit why he/she is using the horn, I want to be safe.

On 65MPH 2-lane highway with a a 6 to 12 inch paved shoulder .....

...you ride on the shoulder. Of course.


"As far to the right as practicable."

It is interesting to note the diversity of opinions on where to ride here. It seems part of bicycling is being predictable to car drivers. But here we have a case where some people are riding on the shoulder, some in the lane... if drivers are expecting cyclists to be one place or the other, bad things could happen.

It's too bad that there aren't more solid guidelines out there.

On 65MPH 2-lane highway with a a 6 to 12 inch paved shoulder .....

...you ride on the shoulder. Of course.


"As far to the right as practicable."

It's not practicable to ride on a 6-12" wide shoulder. Possible? Maybe, and I stress maybe, because a moments lapse of concentration or a mild wind, and you are in the ditch.

It is interesting to note the diversity of opinions on where to ride here. It seems part of bicycling is being predictable to car drivers. But here we have a case where some people are riding on the shoulder, some in the lane... if drivers are expecting cyclists to be one place or the other, bad things could happen.

It's too bad that there aren't more solid guidelines out there.

Definitely!!! You, personally, have to ride predictably!! Have you ever been a driver when there's somebody on a bicycle in front of you, and that person is weaving here and there and doesn't seem to know what he's doing? Wherever you ride, you've got to ride in a straight line, and signal your intentions.

As a driver, I expect you to be on the shoulder.

As a cyclist, I would ride on the shoulder.

Unless the shoulder was really bad ... covered in debris, rough, etc. Like I said, according to the law, you've got to be as far to the right as practicable which puts you on the shoulder, unless the shoulder is not rideable.

It's not practicable to ride on a 6-12" wide shoulder. Possible? Maybe, and I stress maybe, because a moments lapse of concentration or a mild wind, and you are in the ditch.

And if the cyclist ignores the avaialable narrow shoulder and a following motorist has a "momentary lapse of concentration" at 70mph? What then do you predict to be the result? Worse than navigating the ditch??

Definitely!!! You, personally, have to ride predictably!! Have you ever been a driver when there's somebody on a bicycle in front of you, and that person is weaving here and there and doesn't seem to know what he's doing? Wherever you ride, you've got to ride in a straight line, and signal your intentions.

That's a pretty good description of how to be predictable. I would add that if you plan to deviate from your line, in order to be predictable, you first check for other traffic using, or about the use, the same space you plan to move into and either negotiate with them for that space or wait until that traffic has cleared. A signal does not give anyone the right to move laterally.


As a driver, I expect you to be on the shoulder.

I really don't see what difference it makes where a driver expects a cyclist to be. Drivers don't drive down the road blindfolded. On a road with mile long straightaways, they'll know pretty early that something is in the road up ahead. The same goes for the cyclist knowing very early that traffic is approaching from behind.


As a cyclist, I would ride on the shoulder.

Do you ride with a mirror? Why take the risk of falling off the edge of the road riding in a 6-12" shoulder when the road is empty is most of the time (judging by the OP description)?


Unless the shoulder was really bad ... covered in debris, rough, etc. Like I said, according to the law, you've got to be as far to the right as practicable which puts you on the shoulder, unless the shoulder is not rideable.

I realize that you are very adamant about "as far right as practicable" putting the cyclist on the shoulder as you've posted this several times. However, the law in most states reads something along the lines of "AFRAP on the roadway". The "roadway" does not include the shoulder (the "highway", when that term is used, does though).

As a driver, I expect you to be on the shoulder.

.

Flawed logic. Most drivers expect you to leave you bike in the garage. So, do you leave you bike in the garage? That is what they expect.

And if the cyclist ignores the avaialable narrow shoulder and a following motorist has a "momentary lapse of concentration" at 70mph? What then do you predict to be the result? Worse than navigating the ditch??

It's possible, that is the chance you take. More likely while hiding at the edge of the road, a driver will never even see you, and hit you. You are more likely to be seen when you are on the road.

More likely when you are hiding at the edge of the white line, a driver will think "look he's over there at the edge of the road, I don't have to move at all to pass him" That's assuming he sees you at all, while you are hiding over at the edge.

Machka-Practicable does not eqaul possible.

I may not be the best to answer this though, I haven't had a close pass(within 3 feet) in a couple years, and maybe only 5 in 20+years of riding. People seem to give me a WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE berth, maybe it's my riding style?

More likely while hiding at the edge of the road, a driver will never even see you, and hit you. You are more likely to be seen when you are on the road.

More likely when you are hiding at the edge of the white line, a driver will think "look he's over there at the edge of the road, I don't have to move at all to pass him" That's assuming he sees you at all, while you are hiding over at the edge.


All this "hiding" rhetoric sounds like you are channeling the voice of one of our former BF theologians who espoused the belief that motorists have such tunnel vision that they are are incapable of seeing a cyclist unless he/she isin the middle of the road, pereferably weaving back and forth for even more conspicuity. Any source for this theory of "hiding in plain sight" and its probabilities, besides your own experience?

Middle of the lane, because otherwise they'll try to squeeze around you between you and an oncoming car, because they failed geometry, and wreck.
I have lots of roads like this where I live, and they're very annoying but what can you do? Nothing. They're going to pass you crossing the double yellow lines anyways no matter what you do, so take the position that avoids causing head on collisions and stick to it.

Middle of the lane, because otherwise they'll try to squeeze around you between you and an oncoming car, because they failed geometry, and wreck.

Except when "they" don't.

It's still the safest place on the road to be when you have to be on one of those roads, which is sometimes.

Machka-Practicable does not eqaul possible.



Practicable means: "capable of being done with means at hand and circumstances as they are"
http://www.onelook.com/?w=practicable&ls=a

Or in other words, for cycling purposes, as far to the right as it is safe for the cyclist to go at that moment in time. So if there's broken glass on the shoulder, the edge of the lane would be as far to the right as practicable in order to avoid the broken glass. If there's a large pothole in the middle of the shoulder, then again, the edge of the lane would be as far to the right as practicable for the cyclist to avoid falling into the pothole. If the shoulder is falling away in a place ... again, the edge of the lane would be the place to be. But if the shoulder is pristine and beautiful, then there's no reason why the cyclist can't ride on the shoulder.

That's the law in my part of the world. You might want to check what the law is in your part of the world.

If it's light to moderate, I would ride a few feet left of the white line, or possibly in the right tire track, and USE A MIRROR. When someone is coming up behind you, wait for them to acknowledge that they see you -- by slowing a little, or moving left -- then move right to give them room. When they pass, you can be near the white line, or even to its right if the shoulder looks safe.

Yup. Use a mirror, and ride the right tire track. If same-direction traffic moves left, you can hold your position or move right. If it doesn't, you can move right. An implied contract. Everybody wins.

Like I said, according to the law, you've got to be as far to the right as practicable which puts you on the shoulder, unless the shoulder is not rideable.

Even the most hillbilly cop in the world can't expect me to be clipping down the road at 20mph with 3" of room for error for my front wheel. 6"/2 = 3"

Even the most hillbilly cop in the world can't expect me to be clipping down the road at 20mph with 3" of room for error for my front wheel. 6"/2 = 3"

Did you read Post #35?

And ... that's where riding in a straight line comes in handy. 6" is adequate room to ride if you're good at riding in a straight line. 12" is ample.

I'd find some other road.

I would practice my sprints on that section of road. If you can go all out at and maintian a minimum speed of 24 mph you could be off of that section of road in 5 minutes. If you can ride 30mph you can be off it in 4 minutes.

I'm going to have to disagree here, Machka. 12" is fine when you've got nothing else going on. When a truck blows past while a crosswind is gusting, 12" is NOT acceptable. And in any case, that amount of spacing is still a recipe for a car to go "Oh I can make that easily" and, in the best case, have it's rear view mirror go home in another car. Center of the lane is as far as is practicable under those circumstances, because you're trying to preserve the other people on the road's lives.

Did you read Post #35?

Yes.


And ... that's where riding in a straight line comes in handy. 6" is adequate room to ride if you're good at riding in a straight line. 12" is ample.

I must not be good at riding in a straight line.

this kind of shoulder?

That's the law in my part of the world. You might want to check what the law is in your part of the world.

'round here (and it's *not* well publicized), cyclists are supposed to leave at least a 3 foot buffer (http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll/Statutes%20Related/Wisconsin%20Statutes/10423/10522?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=%5Bfield%20folio-destination-name%3A%27346.80(2)(a)%27%5D$uq=$x=Advanced$up=1#LPHit1) between their right side and hazards. If there are cars parked, they count and we must leave a 3 foot buffer... Color me surprised. And pleased. (dear wise Legislators of the great State of Wisconsin... why must you write such good legislation and then fail to fund things like bicycle and drivers training manuals to *teach* people about the good legislation?)

Course, that still leaves the problem that some designated bike lanes violate this bit of law... but WI doesn't have any law that requires the use of bike lanes. So it is legal for me to use the bike lane striping to judge that I've got 3 feet of clearance.

In short, there's rarely a good reason for me to be within 6" of the shoulder's edge, even if it is edged with a curb. And if there's any sign of potholes or other roadway damage, it would look like I was being negligent under WI law. Not a good position to be in at all.

Other states and countries will of course have different laws.

Rural wisconsin highways are provided with 3 foot shoulders minimum and up to five and a half feet or more if bicycle traffic is significant. this frequently allows for safe and vehicular operation of a bicycle default riding on the shoulder of many rural wisconsin highways.

I think part of the reason that you are receiving conflicting advice is that people cycle in different areas with different motor vehicle behaviour. I cycle differently when I'm in the UK as opposed to the USA (well, apart from the side of the road that is!).

Personally, if you don't feel safe, accept that your alternative road to commute on -however sandy or gravelly -is just going to be part of the price you pay for your commute in terms of time and condition. I'm not sure there is a definitive answer to your dilemma -taking primary sounds dangerous, and likewise, being far to the right sounds like it is less than optimal as well.

FWIW, I would look for alternatives, but if none were available I'd tend to stick to as far to the right as I could -I'd think the probability of being struck is less than if you were in the middle of the road primary position. Even then, if I didn't feel safe, I guess I just would not use a bicycle.

Did you read Post #35?

And ... that's where riding in a straight line comes in handy. 6" is adequate room to ride if you're good at riding in a straight line. 12" is ample.

I've been blown off my line more than a foot by gusts of wind. I'll gladly spend 25% of my time watching my rear view mirror for approaching traffic rather than spend all of my time staring down and concentrating on trying to ride 6 inches from the edge of the road.

When I got my first road bike in the early '70s the cycling books I read at the time said that bikes should stay as close to the edge of the pavement as possible and only move left to avoid potholes or other damaged pavement. I got in the habit of keeping my front wheel steadily centered on the white line at the edge (on those roads that had edge stripes -- many at that time did not). But that was in a time and place (southeastern Virginia) where there were plenty of good roads with adequate shoulders. I don't know what it's like there now, but where I live presently (the area around Birmingham, Alabama) there are few roads that have any decent shoulder at all.

I'd like to start commuting once I've built up my endurance a bit (from my house to the office would be about 24 miles each way). But only one of the routes I've been able to find has paved shoulders the whole way, and that's the one I can't use: Interstate 459. All the alternate routes include long stretches of narrow two-lane roads with no shoulder, lots of blind curves and heavy traffic moving from about 40-55 mph. In many places the white line at the edge is actually on the edge of the road. I know of many places where the width of the paved area to the right of the white line varies wildly, from zero, to two inches, to a quarter inch, to a foot, to zero, to three feet, to an inch-and-a-half, etc., all within the space of a hundred yards or so.

There are plenty of safe, peaceful places to ride around here, but unfortunately none of them seem to be in the right places for me to use for commuting. :(

this kind of shoulder?

That is a ridable shoulder...

try this on for size... http://venturavelo.org/db1/00091/venturavelo.org/_uimages/Hwy60.jpg

That sounds like most of the roads around here. I take the lane, but watch traffic behind me with my mirror. (you do have a mirror right?!) If they don't seem to be slowing or moving over, I bail. I mountain bike a lot and am confident I can get it under control once off the pavement though. Good luck.