Foo - Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong?

Warning: This is yet another Foo thread on the topic of women. You've been forewarned.

Is it me? It seems so difficult nowadays to provoke any conversation worth my time with women! Example:

Two weeks ago, I went out with a new intern for lunch (I'm a co-op myself). Now, I was hoping that I would enjoy my lunch over a great conversation about anything and nothing, asking questions about each other and hoping to find a common thread.

And of course, this bird was shot down pretty quickly.

I was doing all of the question asking, but her responses were conversation enders. Each and every single one of them. Doesn't help that she asked nothing about me, nor seemed to care about my character. Even worse was that she seemed like the type completely adverse to any sort of transportation that isn't convenient (i.e. flying from New York to Syracuse when buses go there direct...), so I guess biking is out of the question too. The ride back was overcome by light engine noise...

But then she IMs me at work several times, only to talk about nothing particularly interesting. WTH?!

This was essentially a repeat of a date that I had about a month before this, where the girl seemed to have very little interest in me, or just didn't know how to talk to me (or the other way around). I did get some pretty interesting drinking stories from her though :twitchy:...

Despite all of this, I don't have too much of an issue approaching women at random. For instance, on today's subway ride, I spotted a woman reading James Patterson (I've heard he's kind of a quick-read author). She seemed sort of distracted, so I asked her about his writing, to which we talked about our favorite types of reading. Very nice five minutes of talking.

Maybe it's just a case of:

http://a3.vox.com/6a00cd9708535d4cd500d41436b4ab685e-500pi

Cliffs:
Tried to awkwardly hit on a co-worker at lunch. Got shot down.:thumb:

Cliffs:
Tried to awkwardly hit on a co-worker at lunch. Got shot down.:thumb:

Confirmed.
BTW My posts are usually long; sorry, guys!

It is you.

Most def.

Did you do a broccoli-in-the-teeth check first?

You are doing it wrong. Then again, there is no doing it right.

Your date sounds like a variant of Cell Phone Girl, if that helps.

But why is it that I run into so many? I know I can have thought-provoking conversations, but it seems that it's way too few and far between.

I think you're right, Doolally. The last person had two (count 'em) smartphones; a Blackberry 8800 (not for work) and a Sidekick...

Bingo. But that doesn't rule out boinko.

Rude self-obsession seems to be the new female dating gambit.

Wonder where they got that from. :innocent:

I don't think I understand what you meant; sorry.

I don't think I understand what you meant; sorry.

You may have proved my point. :)

Women have long complained about men who don't listen, are distracted by toys (eg TV, gaming)....

That's a good point. Unfortunately, this makes for a lot of wasted time for both parties involved, especially if one doesn't really want to talk and the other is trying to find that spot.

Ughh...

I'd suggest that the next time you go out, you each bring one cell phone, and sit in different parts of the restaurant and talk.

Winning idea! Brilliant!

I'd suggest that the next time you go out, you each bring one cell phone, and sit in different parts of the restaurant and talk.
walkie talkies would be cheaper unless you have dinner after 9pm.

Most men talk, talk, talk on dates, esp first dates, and leave little room for their date to interject. And, as Deborah Tannen has written about extensively, men and women have very different conversational techniques (e.g. men don't mind being interrupted and don't mind doing so, whereas women believe it is "rude" to interrupt/interject and so avoid doing, &c).

That being said, sounds like you gave her every opportunity to get involved in the convo.

She sounds like a dud to me.

But my real question is this: what kinds of men actually fit these kind of women? What kind of social interaction exists between people of this type?

I'm just trying to understand what seems to be the prevailing majority these days.

It's not worth pondering.

Everyone, thanks for the feedback! Foo never fails.

Bingo. But that doesn't rule out boinko.

Rude self-obsession seems to be the new female dating gambit.

Wonder where they got that from. :innocent:

I'm feeling this.

My roommate roped me into a double date thing this weekend so he could spend time with this woman he's been flirting with at the coffee shop. He's played wingman for me in the past so I was obliged to return the favor. ;)

I could tell my date was interested in me but for some reason she assumed this kind of haughty attitude. Conversation was like pulling teeth. I tried to playfully challenge her defensive attitude but she was not budging. I thought maybe she'd loosen up and we'd get along eventually or, barring that, I would just take one for the team. :(

After several drinks, she announced, "The only men that are worth a damn are the ones who are willing to work for it. I only play hard to get these days." :eek:

I just started laughing. :roflmao: With this terrified look on her face, she asked, "Why are you laughing?" :twitchy:

I got up with a big smile :rolleyes: and said, "No, No, I really hope that works out for you! Excuse me please..." clapped my buddy on the back and walked over to the hot redhead at the bar who turned out to be pretty cool. :innocent:

Their definition of work must mean a bit of self-esteem lowering on the man's part, coupled with a tiny bit of suffering (and I'm not talking the beautiful suffering obtained in a mean hill climb either...)

Warning: This is yet another Foo thread on the topic of women. You've been forewarned.

Is it me? It seems so difficult nowadays to provoke any conversation worth my time with women! Example:


Intelligent conversation went the way of the dodo. Its rare to find anyone willing to sit down and "talk" let alone with any intelligence.



But my real question is this: what kinds of men actually fit these kind of women? What kind of social interaction exists between people of this type?


guy - Nice shoes
girl - Thanks nice shirt
guy - Great, wanna ****
girl - sure, did I already say nice shoes...

I love going out with my single friends and playing wingman, I get to hear some of the conversationally challenged attempt communication all the time. I am surprised more people don't talk in textspeak. It seems to be the only way people can communicate.

You know, I should add a bit to this:

A few months ago, my bud gave me a few DVDs from a person named Lance Mason, a pretty popular pick-up artist (PUA). A lot of his suggestions were insightful, and were good general advice to follow for general everyday living. However, what I did notice is that his suggestions for "picking-up" women (i.e. being a bit clever in bedding a girl, without being completely demoralizing about it, I suppose) at bars revolved around starting completely useless conversations that, for all intents and purposes, are a waste of time. That's fine in a bar scene (which I hate), but what happens after that. What about the next morning or afternoon? Is it just supposed to fail right afterwards, since the goal was accomplished and apparently the woman knows this? What does it then mean to be "good friends?"

God, I hate this "game." Lots of sex, sure, but what about for those that want more than that?

Most men talk, talk, talk on dates, esp first dates, and leave little room for their date to interject. And, as Deborah Tannen has written about extensively, men and women have very different conversational techniques (e.g. men don't mind being interrupted and don't mind doing so, whereas women believe it is "rude" to interrupt/interject and so avoid doing, &c).

That being said, sounds like you gave her every opportunity to get involved in the convo.

She sounds like a dud to me.

Well put, its also why I tend to avoid the typical and boring. I love a verbal challenge. I didn't know anyone actually did a study on it though haha

My fiance (I think I have told this story but it applies directly here) met at a bar. Thats the short version, here is the longer version.

She was flying home to visit some friends who I happened to know. I was out with them and they were trying to hook me up with another one of their girls. Some single girl who liked tall guys. yehaw. I am tall and was single. Seemed like it could be a fun night and she had red hair, I am a sucked for natural reds. She had no ability to hold up her end of the conversation and I personally, can't stand being the talking side of a one sided conversation. The conversation quickly stopped and I kept chatting it with our mutual friends.

Well in walks this hippy looking cute chick who sits down in front of me. With attitude. ok what a *****, shes pulling attitude. I found out she was a friend of my friends and we start "chatting"...it was more akin to verbal sparring. I am a conservative, she is a left wing ex communist hippie. I was a jock computer geek who hated the "system", she was a pot smoking "sit in" who believes one person can make a difference, I pirated music, she was an indie rocker, she loved drama and the "arts", I hate going to live plays and live music. Several hours later, many drinks late and many debates later, I end up taking her home. She was visiting for 2 weeks and we both figured we would have some fun.

7 years later, after moving 5000km, I am still with her and to this day remember every moment of that conversation is embedded in my head. To this day we still disagree, we still debate and I still get turned on by her ability to communicate clearly. (that and I think shes hot)...

I will take the non vanilla cute chick over the mindless rambling of a hot {insert random hair colour here** any day. Those girls are usually only fun as the 3rd in a fun night. Long term, I would rather watch paint dry.

The cute red head they tried to hook me up with, still single, same bars, same conversation and I still talk to her when we go back home (she was a highschool friend of my fiance) She needs to find a new niche...

I got up with a big smile :rolleyes: and said, "No, No, I really hope that works out for you! Excuse me please..." clapped my buddy on the back and walked over to the hot redhead at the bar who turned out to be pretty cool. :innocent:
you deserve a free beer for that one :beer:

Most men talk, talk, talk on dates, esp first dates, and leave little room for their date to interject. And, as Deborah Tannen has written about extensively, men and women have very different conversational techniques (e.g. men don't mind being interrupted and don't mind doing so, whereas women believe it is "rude" to interrupt/interject and so avoid doing, &c).Actually research has found that women interrupt a conversation many more times than men. But they do so in a way that's coherent with and continues the talk whereas men's interruptions tend to be off-topic and cuts off the topic.

What Tannen points out that's really important is the different language that men & women use. The same words in the same arrangement in the same sentence will have different meanings for men & women. For example, "What are you doing Friday night?" or "What do you think of that movie 'Kung-Fu Panda'?". Those are easy, but there's a vast majority that's much more subtle.

I'd also recommend checking out "The Woman that Never Evolved" - Sarah Hrdy - Harvard Press.

I went out with Deborah Tannen once. Damn, that woman would NOT shut up!!!

Their definition of work must mean a bit of self-esteem lowering on the man's part, coupled with a tiny bit of suffering (and I'm not talking the beautiful suffering obtained in a mean hill climb either...)

What she wants is a supplicant. The funny thing is that as soon as she finds this sort of man, she will never respect him or herself for that matter. It's a dead-end street. Mirth coupled with evasion is the correct response as far as I can tell.

Speaking to the OP, for what it's worth, I don't think you're doing it wrong. Just keep trying because eventually you'll just happen to encounter someone who absolutely clicks with you. Speaking anecdotally, I'm a skinny socially awkward nerd but my girlfriend thinks I'm hot, charming, and funny. Just gotta find the match, man. Good luck!

Actually research has found that women interrupt a conversation many more times than men. But they do so in a way that's coherent with and continues the talk whereas men's interruptions tend to be off-topic and cuts off the topic.

Women's interruptions are categorized as "supportive", in that they don't derail the conversation, and tend to take the form of "yes" and "uh huh". I don't interpret that as 'interruption'. For women, it's a way of signifying interest in the speaker.

Men tend to talk over the speaker when they interrupt. Which makes it not only an interruption, but a derailment! When men do this, other men just interrupt back. Women tend not to.

Same-sex conversations are very different from opposite-sex conversations.

Women's interruptions are categorized as "supportive", in that they don't derail the conversation, and tend to take the form of "yes" and "uh huh". I don't interpret that as 'interruption'. For women, it's a way of signifying interest in the speaker.

Men tend to talk over the speaker when they interrupt. Which makes it not only an interruption, but a derailment! When men do this, other men just interrupt back. Women tend not to.

Same-sex conversations are very different from opposite-sex conversations.

Uh-huh. Yes.

That's the spirit!

That's the spirit!

Not to rain on the unity parade, but i do have to note that Tannen's "research" consisted mainly of people with an existing viewpoint watching conversations and drawing out evidence that (surprise) collobarated what they already thought.

Tannen then consistently uses positive adjectives to describe "women's" conversation styles and negative ones to describe "men's." It's about as real as Deepak Chopra.

I think Tannen is a charlatan, but rather charming. Kind of an Ann Coulter of the left.

Women's interruptions are categorized as "supportive", in that they don't derail the conversation, and tend to take the form of "yes" and "uh huh". I don't interpret that as 'interruption'. For women, it's a way of signifying interest in the speaker.

Men tend to talk over the speaker when they interrupt. Which makes it not only an interruption, but a derailment! When men do this, other men just interrupt back. Women tend not to.Actually, "interruption" was defined as where you stop the other person in mid-sentence and interject your own talk and the other person stops. Women tend to continue the topic and provide rapport-building support, such as, "yeah, I know what you mean, that happens to me too. One time at band-camp..."


Same-sex conversations are very different from opposite-sex conversations.You got that right! One of the most difficult things for men to get is that there is no such thing as non-gendered communications. You can't talk to women like they are men and expect them to react like men.

And stay away from the PUA stuff, it OK for the "game", but you end up picking up certain kinds of women. Which typically ends up not being the kind of women you want a LTR with anyway.

To the OP, never ever give up! It's just like learning how to ride a bike, you don't quit after falling once or twice do you? You learn from your mistakes and try things a little differently each time. The thing a lot of guys mess up on is that they think that humans are analytical robots! No woman gets turned on based upon a points system where the highest-scoring guy wins, HAH! We're primal animals with intensely strong mating instincts just like any other out there. By starting out with more effective assumptions, you'll get better results. Here's some other good reads:

The Selfish Gene - Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker - Dawkins
Evolution of Desire - Buss
Dangerous Passion - Buss
Evolution of Human Mate Choice - Jennifer Byrd-Craven, U.Columbia
Sperm Wars - Robin Baker
Lucy's Legacy - Alison Jolly, Harvard Press
Primate Sexuality - Alan Dixson, Oxford University Press
Why Sex Matters - Dr. Bobbi Low, Princeton University Press

Okay, I just gotta brag about this. I'm in the airport and doing some people watching and see a cute blond across the way. She happens to glance my way and we make eye contact. I give a smile and she returns it! Regardless, she walks on out of sight.

I board the plane. I sit down and strike up a conversation with a co-passenger when the blonde comes up to my seat! She's assigned the seat next to me! Now that I can see her up close, I can tell she's a biker. Mountain-biker I think to myself. She's got that lean/low body fat look racers get.

We start talking. Turns out that she is a roadbicyclist and a racer too! We also shored up on politics and are both interested in science.

Unfortunately, she lives on the other side of the country from me... but I still got her number. There are hot, intelligent female bikers out there. Just not enough dammit

The woman still IM's you to keep you around "because you never know when she is gonna need to get back at her boyfriend in short notice".

Ignore her its the best thing you can do.

Same thing has happened to me with coworker and regular women (and I am a hunk, No really I am very good looking) They just do that **** for some reason. Ignore her and she will be VERY ENTHUSIASTIC to talk to you in the future.

have fun

To the OP, I'm actually like this sometimes. :o I'm a quiet kind of person, and I don't say much unless I'm pretty comfortable around you or I have a lot to say about whatever subject we're talking about--rather than speaking all my thoughts aloud, I internalize them. She may have later realized you might have picked up on her signals as lack of interest or something, and begun sending you IMs to let you know she's interested.

Also, like others have said, if the guy wants to do all the talking on the first date, I let him. ;)


I could tell my date was interested in me but for some reason she assumed this kind of haughty attitude. Conversation was like pulling teeth. I tried to playfully challenge her defensive attitude but she was not budging. I thought maybe she'd loosen up and we'd get along eventually or, barring that, I would just take one for the team. :(

After several drinks, she announced, "The only men that are worth a damn are the ones who are willing to work for it. I only play hard to get these days."

I can understand both sides of this, actually. I've been in her shoes--where you're so sick and tired of being played by men that really aren't that interested to begin with. What else is there to do other than play the game right back? If the guy really likes you, it won't deter him. However, I wouldn't actually say that. ;)

Actually research has found that women interrupt a conversation many more times than men. But they do so in a way that's coherent with and continues the talk whereas men's interruptions tend to be off-topic and cuts off the topic.

What Tannen points out that's really important is the different language that men & women use. The same words in the same arrangement in the same sentence will have different meanings for men & women. For example, "What are you doing Friday night?" or "What do you think of that movie 'Kung-Fu Panda'?". Those are easy, but there's a vast majority that's much more subtle.

I'd also recommend checking out "The Woman that Never Evolved" - Sarah Hrdy - Harvard Press.

So what would those sentences mean for women vs men?

To the OP, I'm actually like this sometimes. :o I'm a quiet kind of person, and I don't say much unless I'm pretty comfortable around you or I have a lot to say about whatever subject we're talking about--rather than speaking all my thoughts aloud, I internalize them. She may have later realized you might have picked up on her signals as lack of interest or something, and begun sending you IMs to let you know she's interested.

Also, like others have said, if the guy wants to do all the talking on the first date, I let him. ;)



I can understand both sides of this, actually. I've been in her shoes--where you're so sick and tired of being played by men that really aren't that interested to begin with. What else is there to do other than play the game right back? If the guy really likes you, it won't deter him. However, I wouldn't actually say that. ;)

I understand what you're saying. However, here's my problem (at least in this situation):

She does send messages trying to talk to me, but how much leverage can I have with her if she's really not helping me move the conversation? As someone else previously mentioned, I got the impression that she doesn't have much substance behind her --- or at least much substance that she wants to reveal. Recently, I've been playing a "game" of sorts where I would ask a random question, and the woman would ask a random question in return. It's been working, as I've gotten some positive feedback about this, but I don't want to resort to this every time.

I will be honest and say that it's been a long time since I've had a serious interest in a woman (or at least wanted to strongly pursue one). The last one that I did left her presence on me for a long time afterwards. Everything else from there on has been mild and nearly forgettable.