"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - When to move up?

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Coach has had me focusing on sprint intervals as well as 3 minute VO2Max intervals. He believes me to be more of an "all-rounder" which in looking at the power profile, I would tend to agree with.

So, for the fun of it, when I was unsuccessful in getting into/creating a sustainable break at prospect park, I decided to stop patrolling the front, mix in with the pack, and wait for the final sprint (recently I have been breaking 38mph in my training sprints and while I know that this speed is irrelevant, I know that it is better than I have ever done in the past and so I feel I might be able to sprint with the big boys).

With just over a lap to go (so roughly 3.5 miles) I decided to move from my wheel sucking 50th to a respectable top 10 or so.

I was completely humbled however. Not in my strength, or lack of fitness, but my inability to use 3.5 miles to move up 100 meters in the pack. There was a wall of riders, constant braking as people were fighting for position, and I felt helpless. Every wheel I jumped on immediately braked. Bottom line is I wanted to go to the front, I wanted to be ON the front, leading the entire pack out. I would rather have done that than being hopelessly stuck 40 places back.

So, the question is, when do you guys move up? Do you get to the front with 5 to go? 10 to go? Only in the last mile?

Personally, I felt if things were just strung out, I could have surfed up the side with no problem, but with the slow pack speeds, there was no place to go outside of the jogger's lane (illegal for those of you who don't know).

So how about it? Advice for someone who is used to sprinting from smaller groups?

I'm not a master at moving up, but I'm not bad at it either. My favorite thing to remember is that as soon as your bars are in front of the rider to your side, you own their space. I can left/right/middle my way through the pack just slowly moving folks off wheels. Practice it when the pace isn't heated, and you should be able to do it when it counts.

Just a reminder from looking at your e-wang chart. You're a sandbagger :D

i am certainly not extremely talented in this department, but it is pretty funny to hear you attempt to move up from 50th place to 10th in the last 3.5 miles. it certainly depends on field size, but if you are racing with 100 guys, you had better just skip the warmup and sit by the start/finish until the race starts, cause if you aren't on the front, you won't be getting there unless you take a lot of risks and go a lot faster than the pack which i can't do at all.

if you are racing with 40-50 guys on a closed road (two lanes open), then you will be able to move up pretty easily up until the last 5ish miles. then people are all trying to get up, and the peloton is gutter to gutter. not much place to move up besides screaming it out of the turns. if you are racing with 100 guys, and you are in the back, good luck getting up there. your entire race will probably be spent trying to move up.

all that said, i thought this thread would be about a cat 2 upgrade ;).

If I'm planning on camping out in the pack, I'll practice moving through it on the course (assuming it's a circuit) so I know when I can move up, and more importantly if I can move up. So, then I can plan the final move up, or get to the front to respond to a break as needed. If I find it's too tough to move around in the pack, I just stay in the front.

A lot of times, it's pretty much an attacking effort to get to the front. I'll pop it up over 900W for 20 seconds or so when there's a sliver of space.

It's also very important to learn how to move up in the middle of the pack, where you can save the most energy.

In general though, I'll move up 5 to 10 minutes from the finish. On Saturday, I sat about 15 back until 2 to go, and moved into 5th wheel or so, then attacked on the last lap.

you "should" be able to move up in 3.5 mi. that's 5KM-ish, a good distance. there's always a way, it's just a matter of how confident you are in putting your bike in tight places, and reacting quickly enough when the opportunity arises.

in your situation, did you notice others in the mid pack position who made it to the front and contested the sprint? I'll bet you did, next time, follow someone through or at least watch how they get to their position.

maybe until you're more comfortable navigating, you should patrol the top 10/20 positions and not let yourself get further back, and do a few races where you focus on navigating the pack at different times in the race (this is a great use of early season or "training" races).

all that being said, I really have no idea why anyone would subject themselves to a sketch field sprint (IMO they're all sketch, cat 4 to protour) when they have the tools not to.

There are two ways to move up.

Brute power, which obviously taxes the body a wee bit.

Or, finesse. Moving people off of wheels.

In terms of the time during which you should move up; any lull in the pace. Coming over the top of a hill or a short, low climb at speed, letting a gap open up in front of you and moving into the draft before passing. Any time you can shoot a gap without posing an immediate danger to yourself or others, go for it.

My personal favorite, though, is brute strength plus working the draft. Maybe it's just because I'm much smaller than everyone else, but even on the fastest/longest straight during my (29mph avg. speed) crit sunday, I was able to move up 10-15 spots at will by powering up the leeward side of the line. Stay low, hug the line as you fly by. I was probably a foot away from everyone else, going 35+, each time I did that.

all that being said, I really have no idea why anyone would subject themselves to a sketch field sprint (IMO they're all sketch, cat 4 to protour) when they have the tools not to.

Plenty of races are simply too fast for a break to get off the front. I rolled off the front many times last year, but sometimes, even at my peak 1min intensity after making my move, the field just wouldn't let me go.

If 600w coming out of 65kg in the drops isn't getting away from a field of 3s, well, it's time to toss one up to the big man upstairs, and hope for the best.

you're in a higher cat than i was, so take with a grain of salt, but i found the last lap very difficult to move up in prospect. everyone is more alert and prone to keeping their positions. 2 or 3 laps to go is when i would try to establish my spot.

I have never had a problem with the "brute power" move as long as I have 44cm to do it in (a cm on either side of the handlebars). Surfing up the side if there is room is never a problem. In fact it is like attacking into a draft if it is urgent. And while I might have the strength and propensity to get into a break, the P/1/2 guys don't like it if you do it over and over again, and while I was able to solo away from the same field a few months ago for the better part of 2 hours, they do not seem keen to let me do the same again.

Having said that, I have never had trouble moving up and back in a pack when it is NOT near the end, though, again, it is always along the outside or if a group of wheels happens to be motoring up the middle (rare). I guess I feel like moving people off of a wheel is a bit of a not-so-nice thing to do. I am the guy who if someone wants the wheel in front of me, I will tell them to move in and I will drop back. I don't need to fight for a silly bike length in the middle of a race.

I guess I will have to practice gently pushing riders off of wheels from the middle of the pack.

Oh, and why would I sprint? Same reason I do a lot of things in an unimportant race - to test myself.

FWIW this brings up an interesting point about coaching in general. It seams that coaches today are only interested in power meter readouts instead of teaching you how to actually race a bike. The races I have won were due to tactical decisions more so then shear strength. Just saying.

The time to move up imo is on the start line. The last few miles of a race are going to be very difficult to change positioning.

my thing is, when the pace gets up there, there are a lot more places to move up, ala duke's suggestions. there is a decent draft coming off of a train of 50 guys even if you are beside them. also, as snuff said, the handlebars determine the spot.

the problem is that when you have a cat 3 race that has been bonkers paced for 45 minutes, and no break is gone, the pace almost always settles down with a few miles to go. the slower the pace, the harder it is to move up. also, the later in the race, the more attentive people are, and the harder it is to move up. i tell myself that the little investments early in the race to hop up 10 or 20 positions at around max hr is worth it, because i won't get the chance to get up here later. most of the time, it pays to be up front, and if that is where you have positioned yourself in the past, it is no wonder you are finding it difficult to move up in heavy traffic in addition to the afore mentioned difficultues.

For me, moving up needs to be done with a "no opportunity wasted" attitude. Every gap you see you NEED to get into, every opportunity to move forward must be treated with do-or-die urgency if you're to move up. You have way more horsepower than lots of riders, use it!
Hit those gaps hard and move on the outside/inside when it's possible, taking lots of places. Don't wait!
Any slacking in pace is your chance to move up, be ready and do it assertively.
Being nice is great, but pack sprints are not nice, and neither is moving up around other riders who want to do the same. I'm not saying to challenge your moral fiber, but be aggressive!



-L

When you have enough points to move up, you should definitely move up.

Oh! I guess that's not what this thread is about...

<3 Dr. Will :D

-bullseye

FWIW this brings up an interesting point about coaching in general. It seams that coaches today are only interested in power meter readouts instead of teaching you how to actually race a bike. The races I have won were due to tactical decisions more so then shear strength. Just saying.




Get a better coach / DS. My coach does nothing but talk about tactics, and frequently tells me to worry less about all the scientific aspects I so enjoy. It’s a good balance.

I don't need to fight for a silly bike length in the middle of a race.

Key words highlighted

I would scout this out earlier in a race. Especially for Crits the wind is going to give you a preferred side of the road in different places. Some corners offer great opportunities to move, combine the two and you can take out chunks of 5 to 10 riders at a time. Or look for another sprinter stuck back who has a little help and surf up on his wheel.

Being a newbie- I start getting antsy when I can't see the front of the pack, fearing that I'll get stuck in the back (@ PPark). I don't think it takes any more energy to sit in up front vs. in back. And there is a better chance at avoiding disaster-- such as the massive midpack crash in the PPark Cat 4 race last Saturday at the Start/Finish line. I guess I don't see any value in hanging out in back, but again, I am a rookie.

And what is his coach supposed to say? Give the guy a break, navigating the impossibly dense Prospect Park packs is hardly something that a few words of wisdom from a coach can fix. Those packs are thick like a tropical rainforest, except all the plants are moving.

I tend to ride the whole race in the top 5-10. It doesn't leave me as fresh as I'd like though it enables me to get into breaks or try an opportunistic move late in the race. Sunday with 4 to go I decided the move was to solo so I followed someone off the front and when he gave me the flick I attacked him and soloed the rest of the race. A guy like James Joseph is a master of sitting at the back and moving up in the last 3-5 miles. Those sort of tactics give me anxiety. I can't ride a race like that for fear of missing the right move.

Especially in crits one spends far less energy near the front than at the back.

I guess the short answer is to be near the front but not taking wind as much as possible.

I always do the dangle in the very back until the timer says we're halfway there. Then I start to move up gradually. If you move too late and start charging the front in one foul swoop, you bring the entire pack with you. You're just wasting your energy with that move, because everyone that follows you will continue right on by when you either get to the front or decide to tuck in near the front and you've done all that work for nothing. Try gaining a few spots here and there, then lose a couple, then gain a few more. It's a gradual process and no one really takes note. Then, if you've timed it right, you're up in the top 15 or so when you get to the lap count and you're ready to shoot it out at the end.
This is the formula that works best for me as I'm more of a Lone Ranger sprinter/sniper type since I almost never have teammates working with me. It doesn't work for everyone, but it gets me top 10's every week.

I tend to ride the whole race in the top 5-10. It doesn't leave me as fresh as I'd like though it enables me to get into breaks or try an opportunistic move late in the race. Sunday with 4 to go I decided the move was to solo so I followed someone off the front and when he gave me the flick I attacked him and soloed the rest of the race. A guy like James Joseph is a master of sitting at the back and moving up in the last 3-5 miles. Those sort of tactics give me anxiety. I can't ride a race like that for fear of missing the right move.

Especially in crits one spends far less energy near the front than at the back.

I guess the short answer is to be near the front but not taking wind as much as possible.

Yeah, some people are masters at moving up. I was watching the P/1 crit on Saturday, and Pat McCarty sat last wheel for much of the race. Then, out of nowhere he'd come through the start/finish dragging the field by their tongues. Not much later, at the back again, only to return to the front after a few laps. It looked like he was just using it as a workout, but he was really good at it.

I tend to ride the whole race in the top 5-10. It doesn't leave me as fresh as I'd like though it enables me to get into breaks or try an opportunistic move late in the race. Sunday with 4 to go I decided the move was to solo so I followed someone off the front and when he gave me the flick I attacked him and soloed the rest of the race. A guy like James Joseph is a master of sitting at the back and moving up in the last 3-5 miles. Those sort of tactics give me anxiety. I can't ride a race like that for fear of missing the right move.

Especially in crits one spends far less energy near the front than at the back.

I guess the short answer is to be near the front but not taking wind as much as possible.

That is what I want to know about. How does JJ do it? I can sit near the front the entire race, and for the most part in this one, did just that, until I made the conscious decision to bury myself in the pack only to try to emerge like JJ. I just want a different tool for my shed. It's pretty easy to stay up front, it is easy to attack. It is easy to sprint from smaller group. What I would like to learn is how to move from the back to the front near the end (thus my question...3 miles to go? 10 miles to go?) so that I can sprint against the entire pack.

Or I will just be stuck being the TT guy.

I always do the dangle in the very back until the timer says we're halfway there. Then I start to move up gradually. If you move too late and start charging the front in one foul swoop, you bring the entire pack with you. You're just wasting your energy with that move, because everyone that follows you will continue right on by when you either get to the front or decide to tuck in near the front and you've done all that work for nothing. Try gaining a few spots here and there, then lose a couple, then gain a few more. It's a gradual process and no one really takes note. Then, if you've timed it right, you're up in the top 15 or so when you get to the lap count and you're ready to shoot it out at the end.
This is the formula that works best for me as I'm more of a Lone Ranger sprinter/sniper type since I almost never have teammates working with me. It doesn't work for everyone, but it gets me top 10's every week.

From the guy who goes from 50 back to top 10 finish in the last lap.

From the guy who goes from 50 back to top 10 finish in the last lap.

Hey, that doesn't happen every week. Most of the time it works just like I said up there ^^^. You just never see it because you're always on the front:p

That is what I want to know about. How does JJ do it? I can sit near the front the entire race, and for the most part in this one, did just that, until I made the conscious decision to bury myself in the pack only to try to emerge like JJ. I just want a different tool for my shed. It's pretty easy to stay up front, it is easy to attack. It is easy to sprint from smaller group. What I would like to learn is how to move from the back to the front near the end (thus my question...3 miles to go? 10 miles to go?) so that I can sprint against the entire pack.

Or I will just be stuck being the TT guy.


I'm not sure that spending the race more to the middle-front necessarily always equates with just being a TT guy. It's good to keep in mind that James is a particularly aggressive rider, so where you're braking he's cutting someone else off to keep moving forward. For all the crap you get about your TT position and what not, he gets his on his riding style and about never doing any work. A lot of that though is he he doesn't have much other choice. His fitness isn't what it used to be and he's just a natural fast twitch guy. But he's a one arrow in the quiver guy. If the sprint doesn't unfold just right he can't win. Now granted it frequently does unfold just right, and he's one of the fastest guys around for 200 meters. I'm more comfortable from the front to the middle than the middle to the back, because I don't like to expend that much energy at the end fighting for position. Guys are also more likely to let guys move around that they've seen in the race. That is, the guys who suddenly appear out of no where at the end of the race find more spaces closing up for them. I suppose the answer is that like many other parts of cycling moving from the back to the front at crunch time is an acquired skill. It helps to know which wheels are doing the same thing you are, but absent that one needs to be a bit more aggressive to get the position they need to close out the race. Not everyone has the temperament for that, of course. Same way not everyone is a sprinter or a climber. But with practice anyone can improve a particular aspect of their cycling.

There's always the option of having a teammate drag you up with 1 mile to go too.

Yeah, some people are masters at moving up. I was watching the P/1 crit on Saturday, and Pat McCarty sat last wheel for much of the race. Then, out of nowhere he'd come through the start/finish dragging the field by their tongues. Not much later, at the back again, only to return to the front after a few laps. It looked like he was just using it as a workout, but he was really good at it.

During my first run at racing I would always race from the back.... In crits you would see me dead last one lap then off the front the next either testing the pack or going for a prime. For road races I would sit in until the final 5k then move up.

With this go around in racing im just now getting back my pop/jump and able to race this way again. Starting to work out as I have several (3) top 10s already this year with one podium finish. Gotta have a good jump and be able to read the peleton to pull this off but if you can do it its the only way to fly :)

yeah teammates. I was assuming no one around for the duty. One of our issues is at the harder crits not really having anyone who can come to the front with Juan and I. Since we're ranked fairly equally, and both could win the race, frequently the finish sees us both going for it and placing one behind the other. Therefore, I'm proposing Will comes over to the dark side and rides in pink. I think he'd look good in it and would compliment some of his jewelry. plus we'd put 3 of NYC's biggest sandbaggers on the same squad.

^ I become mentally disengaged (i.e. bored) when I'm tail gunning.

^ I become mentally disengaged (i.e. bored) when I'm tail gunning.

i get nervous as hell waiting for the inevitable crash to happen in front of me when I am at the back

i get nervous as hell waiting for the inevitable crash to happen in front of me when I am at the back

Ever since landing in a pile next to you at Carl Dolan, I have been nervous near the back. However, I've had a lot more experience since then and I'm beginning to look further and further up the road and have been able to more successfully navigate around crashes. Looking up the road and not at the jersey in front of you is very useful :)

A buddy of mine is pretty good at moving around. His team always sends him off the front for a while, and then he gets buried way back in the pack. When it's time for him to attack again or organize a lead-out, he's always up there. One thing he does is to scout the course ahead of time and take note of where the shoulders are wide (paved) or where he could maybe safely off-road it for a bit. If he gets stuck in traffic, he's been known to just hop off on the right and shoot up. If that's what you mean by "jogger's lane" then, um, well, he hasn't gotten caught yet.

I absolutely HATE that horrible lull before the sprint where racers are jammed in front of you like a wall. I'm not good at breaking through it either. Stupid yellow line rule (my fields are small enough where this makes all the difference).

i get nervous as hell waiting for the inevitable crash to happen in front of me when I am at the back

Long as you are paying attention this is not a concern. Keep an eye open and you can see attacks, crashes, etc seconds before they happen.


Big issue is packs that slinky due to riders NOT paying attention up the road then doing a panic surge to close gaps. When races turn out like this I dont sit in the rear.

You guys should try the Manhattan Beach course. OMG! relatively narrow roads with 100+ racers each cat, two turns (each 180-degrees)...all makes for almost impossible to move up. We go from like 5mph in the turn to 30+mph to 5mph to...repeat 30-40 times for the race. Can't move up because any lull in pace, the big pack spreads from curb to curb on the narrow road. I don't know how they do it. But then, I am just pack fodder :rolleyes:

That is what I want to know about. How does JJ do it? I can sit near the front the entire race, and for the most part in this one, did just that, until I made the conscious decision to bury myself in the pack only to try to emerge like JJ. I just want a different tool for my shed. It's pretty easy to stay up front, it is easy to attack. It is easy to sprint from smaller group. What I would like to learn is how to move from the back to the front near the end (thus my question...3 miles to go? 10 miles to go?) so that I can sprint against the entire pack.

Or I will just be stuck being the TT guy.

Pick a race and just shadow him, easy way to find out. Or you could listen to direction from the field fodder here :lol:

Long as you are paying attention this is not a concern. Keep an eye open and you can see attacks, crashes, etc seconds before they happen.


Big issue is packs that slinky due to riders NOT paying attention up the road then doing a panic surge to close gaps. When races turn out like this I dont sit in the rear.

you make this sound much easier than it is. Ive seen crashes happen in front of me with plenty of time to react and there was nothing to do to avoid it.

I haven't raced Prospect in a couple years, like maybe 2 years. But I placed a bunch of times in the last 6-8 times I raced there (M35). I usually moved up just before and on the descent on the last lap, i.e. I move up a bit from the back where it widens out just before the downhill, then on the 2nd part of the downhill I move up more (20th-30th), then I do some judicious slicing and dicing so I can be perhaps 5th-7th when people jump.

That means I wait until maybe 1 mile to go, and I usually move up inside the field. I'm typically close to the back just before I move up. I'm not ideal for the PP sprint as I prefer something with more of an uphill, not a sprint that has a built-in leadout (i.e 50+ mph descent), but I've won field sprints there behind a break. Usually the break contains regular field sprint winner from Sony, which means I didn't sprint against him, and I mention this because I haven't beaten him in a sprint that I know of.

The reason I'm at the back is because I'm at my absolute limit in those race. I get dropped with alarming frequency there. That race is a "get dropped or place" race for me.

At Bethel, which I promote and race so I'm intimately familiar with the course, I've won field sprints (for proper wins or for a sprint behind a break) from being pretty much last at the bell. 0.8 mile lap and obviously I started moving up right after the first turn (one race that's where I reconnected to the field before moving through it).

I do most of my moving up when there is a lot of wind because, since I move up inside the field, the biggest resistance differential is in the headwind bits (i.e. differential in power needed to go the same speed between guys at the front and me in the middle). That means I can move up quickest where it's a headwind.

If you know how to race a bike, moving up on the outside is simply a waste of energy. Moving up in the field, even one that is totally "packed", is a critical skill for racers. You need two things to move up while in the field - a decent surge speed and the ability to read the race around you. A racer should be able to read a race, wait for gaps, then surge a little to fill the gaps. My surges, under 1200 watts (I think in the 900w range - I don't stand, it's more like 3-4 hard downstrokes), will let me accelerate midfield to something like 38-40 mph (in a 35 mph field) without a problem. I can see that a gap will form, make a decision once I think it's highly probable and sort of commit to moving into it, and move into it once it happens. I may move up once in 40-50 meters but I also might have discarded 2-3 other potential gaps that never materialized in the same distance.

The emphasis in racer education is in training first (as someone pointed out earlier), technique a distant second, and tactics is almost totally ignored. I think this has almost no impact on higher level racers (Pro-Cat 1) because, for example, on a one hour climb there is almost no tactics (technique is more important). However there is tons of tactics in Cat 3-5 races because that's where there is a huge discrepancy in ability so the weak riders have to ride smart.

FWIW I averaged 200w (223 normalized power) in the Cat 3 crit at Harlem (27.2 mph). I didn't sprint, I actually sat up with 500-600m to go, but still. I averaged 204w (253 NP) at Hartford but I sprinted a lap early lol. The Bethel race I won in the spring I averaged 189w (287w NP, prob because the hill kills me since I'm doing 600-800w to get up the fcker every lap). I think someone who can do 200-220w avg is perfectly capable of doing flatter Cat 3 crits, but they can't ride dumb. If you want to win a sprint after that you need to do some more serious power, probably 1300-1500w jump. My jump this year doesn't normally break 1400w. But to finish a Cat 3 crit, 200-220w avg is fine.

cdr

Glad to see your keyboard's back up and running, CDR. Good stuff as always.

Usually the break contains regular field sprint winner from Sony, which means I didn't sprint against him, and I mention this because I haven't beaten him in a sprint that I know of.


*******o!

Usually the break contains regular field sprint winner from Sony, which means I didn't sprint against him, and I mention this because I haven't beaten him in a sprint that I know of.


b@stards!

In crits, I start out toward the back and steadily move up to be in the top 10 with a lap to go. Part of it is watching how the the pack takes certain lines, watching where there are faster lines- for example- at the Mt. Hood Crit, it was often advantageous to take the outside line on corner three as you could pedal a couple times to give you more momentum all the way to the top of corner four- while most people slowed on the inside line. I'd pass 4 or 5 guys per lap using this trick.

In the 1/2's good luck moving in the last couple laps. Guys will defend their turf- and if you take an inside line where you shouldn't you may end up causing a crash.

Being a newbie- I start getting antsy when I can't see the front of the pack, fearing that I'll get stuck in the back (@ PPark). I don't think it takes any more energy to sit in up front vs. in back. And there is a better chance at avoiding disaster-- such as the massive midpack crash in the PPark Cat 4 race last Saturday at the Start/Finish line. I guess I don't see any value in hanging out in back, but again, I am a rookie.

And what is his coach supposed to say? Give the guy a break, navigating the impossibly dense Prospect Park packs is hardly something that a few words of wisdom from a coach can fix. Those packs are thick like a tropical rainforest, except all the plants are moving.

In a road race, this is incorrect. You save a lot more energy at the back than in the top 10. This is partly because your draft is a lot better and partly because it's lot more work to hold a position at the front than it is to just chill out at the back.

Personally, I have gsteinb's problem with sitting in - if I can't see the front of the race, I can't see what's happening up the road, and that makes me nervous. I'm not a pure sprinter by any measure, so sitting in till the last lap isn't likely to be a winning strategy anyway. I try to compromise by hanging back for about the first 1/4 - 1/2 of the race, then gradually work my way up to be ready for a decisive moment. In most of my races so far, early breaks haven't been a factor worth being concerned over, and I find the scramble to get a good starting position for a road race to be pretty laughable. Crits, less so, but I started Grant's Tomb at the back of the pack and ended up 2nd, so there you go.

Personally, if the draft isn't as good 10 wheels back (and I think that's debatable) it's more than offset by the energy saved by not having to hammer out of every corner or the total loss of momentum at the base of every hill that happens when you tailgun.

Although the draft may not be significantly better way back than 10 riders back when it's single file, it's *much* better when the field isn't strung out. I find it pretty hard to maintain a 5th-10th position, partly because it's harder to find shelter, partly because the front 20 or so positions are very fluid. Always moving up or moving back.

Except, again, if it's strung out. If it's strung out it's just hard.

Good tactics will let you save tons of energy while sitting at the back, even when you're dealing with hard turns and turns going into short climbs. Not necessarily the case for turns just before very long climbs like in road races, but for crits, where you can move up later, tailgunning is a tried and true tactic. The accordion effect happens in certain situations, not all the time, and if you can control it, you'll be golden. It's possible to sit at the back and almost never have to jump to close a gap.

I think it's important to take into account the rest of the course and the type of rider when thinking about this. If there are sections of the course where it's easy to move up, it makes more sense to tailgun. If there aren't, then you have to balance your fitness/strength, your ability to conserve energy at the back, and the energy requirements of sitting near the front. Usually I sit at the back but at Harlem I decided I wouldn't be able to move up too easily so I never dropped too far back. I still managed to avoid much of the surging in the second, third, and fourth turns, but the first turn was such that I had no tricks to avoid having to work to accelerate (but then again, so did everyone else).

cdr

In a road race, this is incorrect. You save a lot more energy at the back than in the top 10. This is partly because your draft is a lot better and partly because it's lot more work to hold a position at the front than it is to just chill out at the back.

Perhaps in your experience, but from looking at my powertap #s, sitting in towards the back or sitting in near the front gives #s that equate to "active recovery" or low "tempo" pace. Obviously, different races have different packs so your mileage may vary.

In any case, I am not sure why you have shifted the focus to hanging out in the top 10. I don't think anyone suggested that and it is certainly not necessary to easily obtain a good position for the last lap. Hanging in the top 20% or so should take care of the traffic headaches and provide plenty of draft.

Re: CDR's techniques...interesting perspective. I wish I could conjure up 900 watts, while seated, with a few pedal strokes.

Perhaps in your experience, but from looking at my powertap #s, sitting in towards the back or sitting in near the front gives #s that equate to "active recovery" or low "tempo" pace. Obviously, different races have different packs so your mileage may vary.

In any case, I am not sure why you have shifted the focus to hanging out in the top 10. I don't think anyone suggested that and it is certainly not necessary to easily obtain a good position for the last lap. Hanging in the top 20% or so should take care of the traffic headaches and provide plenty of draft.

Re: CDR's techniques...interesting perspective. I wish I could conjure up 900 watts, while seated, with a few pedal strokes.

I think you misunderstood me. During the early phases of road race, I will hang out in the back. I usually move up to the top 20 before the halfway point. In crits, I do try to maintain a position near the front, but starting at the back hasn't necessarily meant that I'm going to have a bad race.

Tailgunning isn't too bad. If I'm at the back and the field keeps on slowing at a turn, I'll let a gap open up in front of me so when I go through the turn I can maintain speed. I catch up without wasting any energy. Of course, you have to watch how the field is behaving. ;)

I'm not sure that spending the race more to the middle-front necessarily always equates with just being a TT guy. It's good to keep in mind that James is a particularly aggressive rider, so where you're braking he's cutting someone else off to keep moving forward. For all the crap you get about your TT position and what not, he gets his on his riding style and about never doing any work. A lot of that though is he he doesn't have much other choice. His fitness isn't what it used to be and he's just a natural fast twitch guy. But he's a one arrow in the quiver guy. If the sprint doesn't unfold just right he can't win. Now granted it frequently does unfold just right, and he's one of the fastest guys around for 200 meters. I'm more comfortable from the front to the middle than the middle to the back, because I don't like to expend that much energy at the end fighting for position. Guys are also more likely to let guys move around that they've seen in the race. That is, the guys who suddenly appear out of no where at the end of the race find more spaces closing up for them. I suppose the answer is that like many other parts of cycling moving from the back to the front at crunch time is an acquired skill. It helps to know which wheels are doing the same thing you are, but absent that one needs to be a bit more aggressive to get the position they need to close out the race. Not everyone has the temperament for that, of course. Same way not everyone is a sprinter or a climber. But with practice anyone can improve a particular aspect of their cycling.

+1.

I never drop back further than the middle of the group. If I see too many riders around me I don't recognize, I start moving up.