Okay, so I've just done my first 200K and 300K rides these past two weekends. Good times, a little warm (N Texas), but everything went really well on both rides. The group I rode with this past weekend was a really great bunch of folks (Lonestar Randonneurs), and I'm looking forward to riding more with them.

Now to my question: How much difference can I expect between the 200/300K rides and the 400/600K rides?

I know there's the whole sleep deprivation thing, and I can manage that. I've got the liquid management thing reliably handled, and I'm lucky in that I can keep eating with no issues noted so far. I don't have any current issues with bike fit. The equipment I currently bring are 2 spare tubes, spare folding tire, a couple of CO2 cartridges, patch kit, multi-tool, plenty of reflective "stuff", battery powered light (good for up to 15 hours), backup light (AA powered), twin rear blinkies, fiberFix spoke, spoke wrench, and extra chamoisButter. The only thing I can really think of to add is an actual air pump, as CO2 cartridges are only good for one flat each.

I had quite a bit of time in the bank on both the 200 and 300, so I'm thinking that I'd probably grab a nap at the 400K mark of the 600, maybe sooner depending on the route. For a loop type route, that wouldn't be problematic, but could be a problem on some other routes I would think. On the 400, I'd consider just riding through unless the body "suggests" otherwise.

Anything obvious that I'm overlooking?

Steve

depending on the start times for your 200k and 300k, the 400 and 600 might be the first time that you'll be cycling in the dead of night. Aside from sleep deprivation and illumination (both of which you covered in your post), the other logistical issue to think about is overnight availability of supplies. Given your finishing times for the past brevets, when do you think you might finish the 400k? If it's near or past midnight, do you think you'll need to stop for food or liquid anytime between that and the next control? What late night services are available in the area?

Similarly, for a 600k, since you're going to sleep, when are you actually going to be on the road? What will be open at that time? Do you think you might need to stop between controls for services or supplies, or do you just plan on stopping at the controls? Do the controls have food and water or do they rely on area markets and convenience stores?

Aside from that, it looks like your list is pretty comprehensive and it seems that you've really thought this through. Enjoy the rides. The 400k is probably my favorite brevet distance.

IME, the 400k isn't significantly different from a 2 or 3. Just longer, with more riding in the dark.

The 600k is where things really change. You've generally got to add in a few hours of sleep time, and there's the "get up and get going again" factor. Also keep in mind you'll most likely be slower on day 2. As for accomodations, our RBA runs 600's so that day 1 is a loop of about 350k, then there's an "overnight control" with shared accomodations (2 to a bed) for the riders, and day 2 is a 250k loop. (The start, overnight and finish are all in the same place.) Other than the overnight, minimal or no support (this ain't no weenie century, y'know). No idea how other RBA's do it.

A 1000k is pretty much the same, just tack on another day. I'll let you know about a 1200 after I do the Rocky Mtn 1200 next month...

Anyway, good luck, and enjoy.

Scott P
Bend, OR

I'd say that a 300 is pretty much like a long 200, but a 400 moves you into different psychological territory. Logistically, you need to carry twice the food supplies (including whatever you need to cover the fact that there may be fewer places open to buy stuff). And you need to carry clothes to handle nighttime temperatures. And of course you need bright lights, reflective gear etc. All of that is pretty straightforward.

But I think that the 400 really does break new ground in the sense that it typically requires a considerable amount of nighttime riding. In the daytime, 50 miles of headwind is tedious but at least you can see the countryside going by. At night, there's you, your cue sheet and odometer (and GPS?), and a little patch of road. You put your head down and ride, and you wait as long as you can before looking at the odometer again, and ... you've covered yet another 1.27 miles, whoopie! It can be demoralizing and can really sap your willpower. I find it really helpful to team up with someone at night, even if I've been riding alone during the day. It can be really helpful to have someone to help pass the time, and chatting helps keep you awake.

The 600 breaks further new ground, mainly because for me it is usally a 400K followed by a 45-minute to 2-hour nap, followed by a 200K where you're starting off really tired, sore, and sleepy. Bag drops with clean, dry clothes plus a 200K worth of food etc. are really helpful. But ultimately you just have to get up and get going and after a few miles everything is fine again.

the 600k i recently attempted (http://cyclinginseattle.blogspot.com/2008/06/seattle-randos-four-pass-600k-my-first.html) was definitely tougher than i thought it was going to be, even though our 400 (my first) was over three mountain passes. the extra length & (lack of) sleep factor is what really make it tough i think.

i underestimated how long it would take to get to the sleep-control at the 400k mark, and got there with only about 1 hour to spare.. at that point i made the next few controls by less than 10 minutes! NOT the way you want to do a 600 comfortably...

anyway i think the 600 is where the real tests come up - 200-400k is still within the grasp of most "normal" distance cyclists, but a timed 600+ is a whole new ball-game.

good luck!

For me, the division is actually between the 400K and the 600K. So I'd lump the 200K/300K/400K together. I don't find the 400K that much more difficult than the 300K ... and of course you'll ride right through that one without sleep. Unless you encounter some really difficult terrain or horrible weather, you should be able to knock it off in less than 24 hours. I'm a slow-as-molassas rider and my slowest 400K was 23:25, and that was a challenging ride!

The 600K, however, is a whole different story. The 600K is not my favorite distance ... I'd rather do a 1000K than a 600K.

And yes, I'd carry an air pump.

Folks, thanks for the feedback. That's just the kind of info I was looking for.

Steve

I'm w/ Machka on this, too. There are differences between the 200 and the 300 (slightly) and the 300 and the 400 (a little more), but there's a huge jump between the 400 and the 600. I've only done one ride over 600K, and that was last year's PBP, which they tell me was bit rougher than other PBPs. I found it to be much harder than my 600.

Folks, thanks for the feedback. That's just the kind of info I was looking for.

A common theme that you might observe in the thoughts posted here is that as the distances increase, the ride gradually shifts more into a test of willpower and mental fortitude than it does simple physical fitness. Riding at night can be a significant morale challenge, especially if riding alone. Riding from one day to the next without significant rest or sleep is also draining. Add to that the possibility of eating poorly and how that can affect your attitude; as well as the ever present potential for mechanical failure at some remote, uninhabited part of the country, and you face several trigger points for quitting this ride.

In my experience, the best method for preparing for 400k+ rides is to train in the worst possible conditions that you can find. Do an overnight ride by yourself. In the rain. Self-supported. Commute all-year in every form of weather that your region offers. Make that your new normal and the most dismal parts of a 600k won't seem that bad by comparison.

Personally speaking, the 600k has been my least traumatizing distance, and while I still prefer the 400k just because it's 'only' one day on the bike; I have a lot of fun on the 600k as well. I think part of the difference with my reaction to the 600 is that it is, as mattm says, the final exam of your brevet season. The shorter brevets are all preparatory rides for the 600 which is, itself, a prep for a 1000 or 1200. I personally tend to have a tough time on a 200 and 300 because of issues with diet and getting my body reacclimated to distance riding after a relatively idle off-season with just commuting. By the 400, my body is warmed up and the season's fluctuations in diet are close to dialed in. By the 600, everything is ready to go.

So, that feeds into the other tip that I'd provide on the 600. Study everything from your past rides and revisit everything that did work and everything that didn't. Take all those lessons seriously and try to address them on the 400k. If you succeed there, the 600 won't seem to be that much of a leap.
Also, with regards to time management, another tip that I'd provide is that the 400k and 600k are really where you ought to start be strict about managing your idle time at the controls. It's really easy, as you get more tired, to waste half an hour at a control, eating, talking and trying to convince your body to get back on the bike. It is certainly nice to take one's time and enjoy the ride, but you might be surprised with how those minutes add up over the length of an entire ride.

For some reason, I've always found the 400K to be the toughest.

I found the jump from a 300km to 400km the toughest also. perhaps it was the 400km's start time that I really struggled with(3am) as I was I usually used to 7am start times.

IME, the 400k isn't significantly different from a 2 or 3. Just longer, with more riding in the dark. My experience suggests that the 400k is really the "crossover ride" with respect to difficulty. Most or the time, people are surprised at how much more difficult another 100k can be.

For some reason, I've always found the 400K to be the toughest.I kind of agree. Anyone going on a 600k - somehow realize the distance - and often pace themselves and prepare more completely for the ride.

In any case, weather and terrain cam make rides more difficult than one another more than 100k of change in distance. A few flat tires, a dog, or bug in the eye can change your view of a ride.
(yuk yuk)

or bug in the eye can change your view of a ride. Well played sir.

A common theme that you might observe in the thoughts posted here is that as the distances increase, the ride gradually shifts more into a test of willpower and mental fortitude than it does simple physical fitness.


Yes, and I'll add that ANY change or slight problem with fit, alignment, new shorts, new gel, etc. etc. can be a ride killer on the 600k. (not so much on the 400k). What you might have the mental fortitude to suffer through for the end of a 400k you will unlikely be able to suffer through for another 200k to finish the 600k - and I think the sleep stop on a 600k makes this worse - as you have to get up and deal with the pain again for another long day in the saddle. If things were just a bit hard or off near the end of the 400k, study why, and correct it.

I found 2-3 things on my 600k that didn't end the ride but made it very uncomfortable:

Bib shorts - while fine for the rather cool 400k after 180 miles on the 600k in very hot weather I had serious issues where the bib straps rubbed my nipples raw. Ever since I've worn a wicking undershirt on rides longer than 80 miles or so.

Saddle - I tried a reasonably new saddle for the 600k - (worked for a century to 'try it') - while this didn't end the ride it did make a large portion of it very uncomfortable. The saddle actually fit just fine - it was the texture on the seat combined with my choice of bib short that rubbed my @ss raw in places that I never had issues. (think sandpaper)

Fit - get it dialed in. This is what killed my 600k attempt - a slight misalignment of my pedals / cleats and I had knee issues. I DNF'd because of it. I had to swap cleats (worn out!) just prior and only had about 100 miles of easy training on them... something was off because me knee went south.

bug in the eye can change your view of a ride.

additional night riding tip ... if you're going to be riding through a region that's infested with blackflies, mosquities and other such vermin, and if you'll be using a headlamp, wear clear lenses over your eyes. Otherwise, you'll get some painful reminders that moths are drawn to a flame (or halogen bulbs in this case)

With respect to pain on a brevet, I try to apply what some call the "two-week" rule: If the pain seems like it's just transitory and will be gone in a couple of weeks, then continue. But if it seems like it is something that might be causing bigger problems, then better to stop. Serious joint pain is something that would probably make me stop. Sore butt is generally just something to be endured. In fact, when I woke up at the 400K point of my first 600K and went to get back on my bike, I found that my sit-bones had developed internal swelling that felt like I was sitting on an acorn. I figured it would just go down after a day or two and not cause any lasting damage, so I proceeded despite some discomfort. It was the right call, since the swelling went away.

Numbness is another issue that often creeps up and may not be noticed until afterwards. I think in some respects that numbness is more serious. I had partially-numb hands for five months after PBP, and know several others in the same boat. That has me somewhat questioning the wisdom of longer rides.

additional night riding tip ... if you're going to be riding through a region that's infested with blackflies, mosquities and other such vermin, and if you'll be using a headlamp, wear clear lenses over your eyes. Otherwise, you'll get some painful reminders that moths are drawn to a flame (or halogen bulbs in this case)

+1000. cried my eyes out on the bbs 400k when this very thing happened to me. i took my specs off for a bit (stuck on top of my helmet) and a few minutes after i fired up my headlamp for cue reading i was crying. jurt alot.

This bug in the eye bit hits home as well. On my 1st 600k this year out of Davis, on the 2nd night at about 10PM after 26 hours of elapsed time, bam! right in my eye. The pain was bothersome and lasted for a good 20-30 miles. I wondered many times how long it would last. I finally stopped after about 10 miles and sacrificed some water to flush my eye out. Took a couple more hours before the pain/discomfort subsided. Alone at night dealing with these issues in the final 150k is mentally draining.

--
SharpT

Again, thanks for all of the replies. I commute to work each night in the dark, so I'm pretty accustomed to the bug thing and I keep a day set and night set of lenses with me.

But the more you guys mention it, I'm thinking it would be far and away the best idea to ride with others on the night leg if at all possible, for the sake of conversation and in case of a flat or mechanical. The group I've been riding with is pretty social, so I don't think it will be much of a problem to find a group at my speed to stick with.

My tenative plan is to do the 400K on September 20th, then the 600K on October 11th. That's when the Brevets are scheduled. In the mean time, I'm trying to do as many of the 200K and 300K rides as possible, just to make everything second nature if possible.

Steve

But the more you guys mention it, I'm thinking it would be far and away the best idea to ride with others on the night leg if at all possible, for the sake of conversation and in case of a flat or mechanical. The group I've been riding with is pretty social, so I don't think it will be much of a problem to find a group at my speed to stick with.



You're lucky to have other cyclists on your events.

barlows, thanks for the post. All others thanks for the replies. This thread has been very interesting and brought up several things I need to think about. I want to do a full set of brevets next year. The idea of riding all night is something I need to work on. I might try to do a century I do frequently (LA to San Diego) all at night.

Regarding riding in rain. I did a short ride this past winter in the rain. In SoCal this is actually not an easy thing to do; just wait a day and it will be dry normally. I had a lot of slightly rusty bolts. Is this something I should be worried about in any long term way? If not I will make sure to head out again on a really rainy day just to be better prepared in case of foul weather.

When I rode my last brevet series, I noticed bigger mood swings on the longer rides, especially later into the ride. I don't know if it's sleep related since I slept 7+ hours (at about the 400km point) during the 600km. Could be fatigue or blood sugar levels.