First off, if anyone is bothered by this series of questions, click out of this now. I have plenty more.

This question is an offshoot of a discussion that morphed out of EQ3.

You're sprinting in the finish on a fenced course (because someone pushed you over the very first hill 70 miles ago, presumably)
You are about 3 feet from the right fence.
You know that a rider is coming up on your right.
A quick peek tells you that he hasn't overlapped your rear wheel yet.

What are you cool with? And at what point does the racing get dirty?

1. Hold your line and give him room to pass

2. Move over slightly and make him really think twice about threading the needle

3. Wait 'til he commits and then slowly drift right to hold him against the fence

4. Slam the door shut and not let him come around on that side at all.

2 or 4.

I see no issue closing the door before he gets there. He's not getting curbed or suffering any other inherent safety risks.

1 is nice. Perhaps too nice.
3 is getting nasty. Perhaps too nasty for a guy with a day job.

Id probably just go with 1 because it sounds the safest and I need to worry about going forward as fast as I can more than whats going on behind me at this point in my racing career. Sprints are sketchy enough for me without looking all around.

i havent been racing long enough to have answers to ethical questions i guess

2 or 4. Maybe 1 if it's someone I'm friendly with.

1 if it's w/in 200m
4 if it's outside that

1 or 2 depending.

I like and respect the guys I race with. If I can't beat them straight up then there is always the next race.

5. accelerate and make it a moot point!

if cant do that, option 2 or 4 if finish line is a few pedal strokes and a bike throw away

if finish line is >100M or so and yer cooked, 1

3 is too risky for me, but OK too as long as not crash causing.

Open passenger door and jamb on brakes...oh wrong discussion.

2.

1, these days. But I've done all of them in the past and I see guys pulling them all the time.

1 or 2, depending on who it is and what place we're fighting over.

You're sprinting in the finish on a fenced course (because someone pushed you over the very first hill 70 miles ago, presumably)

I dropped everyone on the hill and went solo the last 70 miles. If I move over, it's to high five the crowd.

"on your right"

yeah, ok eat me.

lean my head on his shoulder as he tries to come around.

Depends on the importance of the race. If the race wasn't anything, you know, like a training race, then I'd just hold my line. If this were a stage race or something and I had fought hard over the last 70 miles to get to this position, I'd probably go with option 2, and if he insisted on passing, I'd implement option 3 and pin him against the fence. Not actually run him into the fence, just wait until his wheel overlapped and move over slightly so his only option to get around is to back out and go around the other side.

I wouldn't slam the door shut because the guy will probably just try to go around the other side and I'll be the one up against the fence with nowhere to go. The guy passing on the outside has to know that there is a possibility of getting trapped there. I don't think it's dirty unless you wait for him to commit and then slam the door on him forcefully, forcing him to brake hard or hit the fence. Once the sprint actually starts, I'd hold my line the best I could to the end.

BTW, I'm assuming we are actually sprinting for the podium. If this were a minor placing (like six guys got off the front, say), I'd just hold my line.

1 or 2 depending.

I like and respect the guys I race with. If I can't beat them straight up then there is always the next race.

I think Dan alludes to the crux of the question here: Is it a tactical maneuver or simply being an ass? I'd do it as a tactic, but respect the need to race another day. Same thing in corners: I never try to fully close the door in a tight group despite being pushing a wide load on the inside.

WR also brings up the salient point that inside 200m you are indeed expected to hold your line. Question is: how tightly?

First off, if anyone is bothered by this series of questions, click out of this now. I have plenty more.

Keep going. As not-the-most-experienced-guy here, I'd like to know what faux pas's I'm inadvertently commiting.

#2 or #3.

The power of persuasion is wonderful, especially when you have a size advantage.

I'd not choose #4 because that might give him the opportunity to change his plan and get by on the left.

EDIT: and it won't take much deviation of my path to drive the point home, I'm not about to chop someone at the line.

I dropped everyone on the hill and went solo the last 70 miles. If I move over, it's to high five the crowd.

:lol:

These are a lot of fun.

For safety reasons I'd close the door so that he knows, straight up, not to bother.

Also, if I'm there it's because I'm on the front but I want the wind. The bastage doesn't get to jump into my draft.

It's a two up sprint. Close the door and duke it out.

2, since he may be baiting me to move right to give him more space to attack to my left, possibly pinning ME to the fence if I can't react fast enough. I want to do just enough to perhaps get HIM to commit and telegraph his intentions.

If I am within 200 meters, I would drift so as not to be guilty of changing the line. Outside of 200 meters? Is there a pack and I am essentially purposefully boxing him in? No way, definitely let him go. If it is a two up sprint and I want to make sure he comes around to my left into the wind? Yeah, I close it down hard.

I don't want to end someone's chances. I just want to make it more difficult.

I think Dan alludes to the crux of the question here: Is it a tactical maneuver or simply being an ass? I'd do it as a tactic, but respect the need to race another day. Same thing in corners: I never try to fully close the door in a tight group despite being pushing a wide load on the inside.

WR also brings up the salient point that inside 200m you are indeed expected to hold your line. Question is: how tightly?

If you're inside the last kilo, riding along the barriers and you DON'T get the door closed, consider yourself lucky.

The barriers are your friend if you are leading out a sprint, and the person behind you should know and respect that. Trying to shoot that gap is rarely feasible, and usually doesn't turn out well.

First off, if anyone is bothered by this series of questions, click out of this now. I have plenty more.


Then why don't you do everyone a service and include the relevant rules covering the situation. Most of what you consider ethical questions are adressed to a greater or lesser degree in the rule book. This is clearly one of those cases.

Then why don't you do everyone a service and include the relevant rules covering the situation. Most of what you consider ethical questions are adressed to a greater or lesser degree in the rule book. This is clearly one of those cases.

Unfortunately, the UCI commissaires don't quite view it as black and white.

If someone is ahead of another rider, moving over to the side is his right. He is not blocking the rider behind him. The barriers are the party responsible for that. They are part of the course.

Not everything can be narrowed down to a yes or no, legal or illegal answer. If you want to penalize someone for that, you'd have to do the same when someone gutters it out in a crosswind and there are a couple of guys who can't get a draft.

Trying to shoot that gap is rarely feasible, and usually doesn't turn out well.

This is my thought as well. I would hope the person behind me would have enough sense to not put both of us in that situation.

That said, I have had the reverse happen to me several times; someone comes around me and chops my wheel, throwing me off my line. Most of the time, it doesn't affect the outcome, but I find it a questionable tactic.

Two things you can do; 1. Feign just a little bit of a hook when you get out of the seat this usually buys you enough time to gap the other rider. 2. Act just a little squirrley.

I don't beleive either one is against the rules or dirty as Im not impeding you physically, just mentally.

So I guess #2

#2 or #4

But I think there are more variables to it. First, if you have been in a 2 up break for a while you will have a pretty good idea what the other guy is like and know if he is fresh enough to come around or risky enough to try and shoot the gap if you do move over slightly. Secondly, I'm not about to chop someones wheel having been on the losing end of that before. Also, if he is that close to the barrier he made a poor decision and boxed himself in. You are not responsible for the path he choose.

I'm not sure how this situation would even come up. If I'm in front, I'm going to ride as close to the curb as possible so that when the guy in back of me can only come around me from one direction. To do anything else just makes no sense.

If I'm in back and the guy in front of me is not on the curb, I'm going to watch which shoulder he looks over and then immediately move to the opposite side so he can't see me, which usually gets him to look over the other shoulder, then I move to the other side etc.

After two or three times of this back and forth, the guy ion front is confused enough or has hesitated enough that I jump and usually get the advantage on him.

Not everything can be narrowed down to a yes or no, legal or illegal answer. If you want to penalize someone for that, you'd have to do the same when someone gutters it out in a crosswind and there are a couple of guys who can't get a draft.

I'm not saying everything should be decided on the vague wording of the rulebook. However to consider these questions without acknowledging the contraints from the rules and the fact that the governing bodies have considered these issues and reached certain conclusions as to what is and is not proper is to needlessly ignore what others have already done.

By the way, your example of guttering someone to prevent a draft is a total misapplication of the rules.

Let's go on the assumption that everyone who races KNOWS the rules or where to find them.

If someone wants to quote the rulebook, they're free to do so.

I would not get myself pinned, but if in that situation, and you squeeze me I'll push back, if I go down I'm taking you with me as I will use you as padding..

#1, always, and I think people who say otherwise either a) haven't been in many sprints, b) weren't in contention when they were, or c) are fooling themselves playing Monday-morning tactician.

Positioning, closing doors, etc etc, all that happens *before* 200m. But once you hit that point, you point your bike at the line, commit and go. The tactical cards have been played and all that's left is to show what you got. If you've got the energy and/or attention left to be scoping out the riders behind you, then my guess is that you don't really have a sprint in you. So you might shut one guy down on the right, only to see 20 guys who do have a sprint charge by on the left. If that's the case, do us all a favor and hold your line so that we can get by, rather than strategizing how you can place 21st instead of 22nd.

Yes, there are exceptions -- Robbie McEwen can sprint while maintaining pack awareness. But that's (one of the reasons) why he's McEwen and we're BFers.

Two things you can do; 1. Feign just a little bit of a hook when you get out of the seat this usually buys you enough time to gap the other rider. 2. Act just a little squirrley.

I don't beleive either one is against the rules or dirty as Im not impeding you physically, just mentally.

So I guess #2
Yes, if there's one thing I learned the hard way is that much of bicycle racing is mind games. Not just track sprints, but in every race. Time trials are the worst because you're competing against your own mind.

Pay it forward. Especially if I'd gotten a push...... #1, but make him work for it, if I can....

I would not get myself pinned, but if in that situation, and you squeeze me I'll push back, if I go down I'm taking you with me as I will use you as padding..

Something about my rear vs. your front, or the barriers vs. you, with you behind me, makes me think that you'd be eating pavement, and I'd be rolling in very much unscathed....

I agree with some of the above folks. If we're talking 200m or so, just grip it and rip it. If the guy's got a bigger motor, more power to him.

Otherwise, I have to second some of the other statements here. Its silly to leave them the hole to get around you either right or left. Just cut off that one possible by-way before he's even there. While I think we can be pretty cold-hearted in some races, I don't think folks should do something dumb enough that'll ruin both riders chances of placing highly in the race. I know nobody likes second, but that ain't too shabby either.

I would not get myself pinned, but if in that situation, and you squeeze me I'll push back, if I go down I'm taking you with me as I will use you as padding..

... and we have a winner for most idiotic response to this ethics question.

I've debated that exact thing for a half second or so, eased a bit over to see how bad the guy wanted it, and he took it. So I let him by.

The previous year I started going around him, got even with him, and his leadout guy started fading. He tried to go through me but I held my ground (against a lot of pressure exerted on my arm by a guy who is maybe 6'2" and 180-200 lbs).

We laughed about both sprints, especially when I told him I decided against closing the door on him because he'd have hit the edge of the announcing platform with his head. I figured that would be poor form since the officials stand up there too.

I think if you are in the hunt, i.e. the speeds are similar, you always close. But if the guy is going to blow you away, i.e. he will annihilate you as soon as he jumps, you don't close.

cdr

But if the guy is going to blow you away, i.e. he will annihilate you as soon as he jumps, you don't close.


Pretty much limits my options. :eek:

I'll take 2

I've debated that exact thing for a half second or so, eased a bit over to see how bad the guy wanted it, and he took it. So I let him by.

The previous year I started going around him, got even with him, and his leadout guy started fading. He tried to go through me but I held my ground (against a lot of pressure exerted on my arm by a guy who is maybe 6'2" and 180-200 lbs).

We laughed about both sprints, especially when I told him I decided against closing the door on him because he'd have hit the edge of the announcing platform with his head. I figured that would be poor form since the officials stand up there too.

I think if you are in the hunt, i.e. the speeds are similar, you always close. But if the guy is going to blow you away, i.e. he will annihilate you as soon as he jumps, you don't close.

cdr


+1.

I agree with this and add that if it's a sprint for show, let the other guy take it clean so he can sit up and blow kisses at the line.

Then go and shake his hand and be satisfied with your 2nd. It was a good ride.

I would not get myself pinned, but if in that situation, and you squeeze me I'll push back, if I go down I'm taking you with me as I will use you as padding..

Obviously not familiar with the dynamics of crashing a bicycle.

You'll go down, but I'll be rolling in victorious.

#1, always, but that's just me. If I did any of 2-4 it wouldn't be on purpose, or simply because 2-4 happened to me. It's all chaos anyway, unless we're talking coming out of a break. If we're talking a 2-up sprint, it'd still be #1 because why do I want to walk around all week, struttin' it thinkin' I'm the champ when really I just closed off the faster guy? As already mentioned, many times, the tactics have already been played out, or should have; you're at the finish, hold your line. It's that simple.

Option 2.

3, became very unfashionable after Bauer put Criquillion in the fence. Even Fondriest in his success had to live with this.

unfashionable. That's a funny way to put it, but it's apt.

In the 70s, it was all the rage. Everyone was doing it.