Ok, I've been doing the searches and am just getting more and more confused....:notamused:

I currently have a Nite Hawk 6v/10 watt headlight that I'm happy with. But would like to get something brighter in an LED set up. But, trying to figure out what LEDs would be brighter than the 10w halogen in the Nite Hawk is driving me batty.

Can anyone tell me (is there even a definitive answer) to what watts/lumens in an LED would be brighter?

Thanks.

I can't give you the formula but I can tell you that my 180 lumen Fenix washes out my 15W Planet Bike halogen.

I think it depends on the manufacture and whatever number they come up with, because my 16 watt Halogen CygoLite washes out my 200 Lumen LED SureFire C3! Not trying to be funny with the other poster but it's true. The color of the light is different, the LED is a bluish white (cold color) whereas the Halogen is more of a yellow white (warmer) light. I think the manufactures ascribes whatever lumen or watt rating they want to make the thing sell, and these ratings are not controlled by the Feds so they can get away with it.

Maybe someday the feds will but controls on these ratings, because I remember back in the day when stereos were being sold with fantastic watt ratings while others were being sold with amp ratings and one would say the other was better. Then the feds stepped in and eliminated the amp ratings and went with wattage as the standard...but the feds had it wrong, the true rating of an amp is the amount of electrical current (amps) being delivered to the speakers; thats why amplifiers are called amplifiers not wattifiers!! Thus if the feds do get involved they'll probably screw it up! Regardless todays watt ratings on amps are often way overblown especially in the low end market like Circuit City, Best Buys etc. and there's no regulations on that practice.

All light bulbs are rated by watts, but that is the amount of current needed to provide X amount of lumens, thus all lights should be rated with the lumen figure since that is the actual light output; but again you would still have manufactures over rating their lumen figures because the feds wouldn't regulate that aspect.

No formula, but here (http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html) is a table that purports to give lumens for halogens, which you can then compare to the lumens.

I should add that I got an over-volted halogen based on this table, and my halogen, supposedly 1500 or so lumens according to this table, looked at most 2x better than my Fenix L2D, not much brighter but with a larger halo.

So either lumens perception goes up only logarithmically or some such nonsense, or the table is nonsense.

16 watt Halogen CygoLite washes out my 200 Lumen LED SureFire C3!

I have that same Cygolite. Once I tried the 180 lumen Fenix, it hasn't been used since. I'm not claiming to know anything mind you. I just swear by these Fenix lights. Much of this has to be subjective I guess.

There is no definitive answer, lots of variables, led, optics, beam pattern, battery voltage, bulb quality. Three times is a good approximation for a newer LED light.
I understand the 6v halogens aren't quite so flash so a 3w led light should be better. Any of the multi emitter lights should be a significant improvement (minewtX2 dual, trident, trinewt, iblaast, dinotte 600l etc) and a single emitter should be close (dinotte 200l, minewtx2, the higer end flashlights).

I have that same Cygolite. Once I tried the 180 lumen Fenix, it hasn't been used since. I'm not claiming to know anything mind you. I just swear by these Fenix lights. Much of this has to be subjective I guess.


It's a different kind of light as I explained. One is more whiter then the other and the appearance at first glance is that the whiter is brighter...until you later notice that halogen lights up objects further down the road then the LED. But I don't have the Fenix I have the SureFire so maybe your's is better then mine. But as you said, it's subjective. Heck I have a cheap $3.50 lantern battery flashlight and that thing is brighter then my old Mag light I spent a lot more for!

No formula, but here (http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html) is a table that purports to give lumens for halogens, which you can then compare to the lumens.

I should add that I got an over-volted halogen based on this table, and my halogen, supposedly 1500 or so lumens according to this table, looked at most 2x better than my Fenix L2D, not much brighter but with a larger halo.

So either lumens perception goes up only logarithmically or some such nonsense, or the table is nonsense.

I would say that you probably have a flood lamp instead of a spot. My overvolted MR16 halogens (1 30 degree flood and one 12 degree spot) are far brighter than any LED I've ever run across. If you read the information that Scharf gives, you'll see that there are lots of variables.

Here (http://www.mastlight.com/MeasuringTechniques.html) is a good explanation of the measuring techniques. Part of the problem is that the lumen measurement is poorly defined for most lamps. I've seen some that show the lux (lumen/sq. meter) but those are rare. Another part of the problem in comparing LED and halogen is that LED is very directional. They look very bright from dead ahead but they don't have much spill to the sides. Optics can help but the light has to be designed correctly from the start.

Something else to consider, charly17201, is that your NiteHawk is an MR11 bulb. It's a good light but it doesn't put out as much as the MR16 (larger lamp, same voltage). The values that Scharf gives in the above link, for the MR11 10W 6V bulb is 190 lumens. Not too bad but at 7.2V, the same bulb will put out about 350 lumens, which is a stupendous amount of light for such a small bulb. Getting 350 lumens out of a commercial LED system is difficult and expensive but a 7.2V battery is pretty cheap. You could even change the lamp in the NiteHawk to a 15 or 20W bulb (with shorter run times) and overvolting to get to really good light levels. I've done this for a very long time with Niterider and, from what I've seen, the Nite Hawk is constructed well enough to take the extra heat.

If you want to get to stupid light levels, DIY is about the only way to go that is economical. There are several around both in LED and halogen (here's mine (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=368772) but there are others). I just ordered some 10W spots that will stretch my run time (with a fourth lamp:eek:) to around 6 hours at over 700 lumens. (I don't normally go for that long a run time but I'm doing a 50 mile ride in the dark next month.)

Simplified answer: Watt is a unit of power. Lumen is a unit of visible light intensity. The relationship between the two is dependent on many factors. This is from Wikipedia:

"The lumen can be thought of casually as a measure of the total "amount" of visible light in some defined beam or angle, or emitted from some source. A standard North American 100 watt incandescent light bulb emits 1500–1700 lumens, while a standard European 230 V model emits 1200–1400 lm. A 100 watt high-pressure sodium vapor lamp emits around 15,000 lumens. The number of lumens produced per watt of power consumed is the wall-plug luminous efficacy of the source."

So the lumen/watt of any LED light source also depends on many factors, including the efficiency of LED, its power management, reflector (beam focus and angle), etc. There is no straight-line relationship between watt and lumen, sorry to say.

So the lumen/watt of any LED light source also depends on many factors, including the efficiency of LED, its power management, reflector (beam focus and angle), etc. There is no straight-line relationship between watt and lumen, sorry to say.
Dead on! You get a cookie! Well you got one anyway just visiting this site.:D
Optics can and will make all the difference between a poor light and an exceptionally good light, given the same light source. Also remember you can't compare LED watts to halogen watts when rating light output. The watt is used for calculating the power used in a circuit. A halogen bulb will use 5% of watts consumed for light production with the remaining 95% as heat. LED's produce heat as well but produce much more light per watt. Currently LED's are improving at a rapid rate. Manufacturers can't keep up and were not even trying until the SSC P7 was introduced. 6 months ago Cree introduced the XR-E power LED and was the brightest LED available. Just 6 months later SSC introduced the P7 producing 4 times the amount of light. The SSC P7 power LED has broken through the halogen barrier. It's capable of exceeding the maximum light level for DOT automotive lighting products and it produces enough light to replace those mercury filled CF lights for in home use and consume fewer watts as well.

I would say that you probably have a flood lamp instead of a spot. My overvolted MR16 halogens (1 30 degree flood and one 12 degree spot) are far brighter than any LED I've ever run across. If you read the information that Scharf gives, you'll see that there are lots of variables.


Nope, I had a 12-degree spot. It was brighter, and had a bigger halo, but to me it didn't seem qualitatively better, and I like the Fenix's light color (or lack thereof) better. I'm probably also influenced by the compactness of the Fenix package, vs a large 20-24 oz water bottle container for the battery, long cords, and big honking bulb.

I'm willing to believe that objectively, the halogen was better, but I like the fenix.

Dead on! You get a cookie! Well you got one anyway just visiting this site.:D
Optics can and will make all the difference between a poor light and an exceptionally good light, given the same light source. Also remember you can't compare LED watts to halogen watts when rating light output. The watt is used for calculating the power used in a circuit. A halogen bulb will use 5% of watts consumed for light production with the remaining 95% as heat. LED's produce heat as well but produce much more light per watt. Currently LED's are improving at a rapid rate. Manufacturers can't keep up and were not even trying until the SSC P7 was introduced. 6 months ago Cree introduced the XR-E power LED and was the brightest LED available. Just 6 months later SSC introduced the P7 producing 4 times the amount of light. The SSC P7 power LED has broken through the halogen barrier. It's capable of exceeding the maximum light level for DOT automotive lighting products and it produces enough light to replace those mercury filled CF lights for in home use and consume fewer watts as well.

Since the technology is changing so fast, it would be wise to wait until things plateau in terms of innovation. It's easy to sink a lot of money into something that may be replaced by far better next generation. If you are willing to build the units yourself, it makes some sense to be on the cutting edge but if you are looking to buy a commercial system, the output of the LEDs currently available just aren't worth the investment. Modifying a commercial halogen system by simply changing the battery is still far more economical and has a much higher light out than just about any commercial LED system out there now.

For charly17201 situation, a $30 battery would blow the doors off an LED system...in terms of light output. If he wanted more run time, a second battery would still be more economical than any commercial system that would put out the same amount of light.

Nope, I had a 12-degree spot. It was brighter, and had a bigger halo, but to me it didn't seem qualitatively better, and I like the Fenix's light color (or lack thereof) better. I'm probably also influenced by the compactness of the Fenix package, vs a large 20-24 oz water bottle container for the battery, long cords, and big honking bulb.

I'm willing to believe that objectively, the halogen was better, but I like the fenix.

Personal choice. Frankly, I can't stand the 'full moon' light of LED or even HID. To me there is no contrasts and everything is washed out. I also don't mind the wires or batteries given the results I get while running three of the lamps...as can be seen in numerous photos I've posted.

To each his own.

Personal choice. Frankly, I can't stand the 'full moon' light of LED or even HID. To me there is no contrasts and everything is washed out. I also don't mind the wires or batteries given the results I get while running three of the lamps...as can be seen in numerous photos I've posted.

To each his own.

Very well put and I agree. I much prefer the warmer light with the better contrast of the Halogen vs the LED or HID. The only advantage of the LED is the battery life, but my 16 watt Cygolite runs for 6 hours on low...but at my age (70+) I have to run with both beams on so my run time is only 2 hours, but I rarely ride at night anymore due to eyesight problems so it's not issue.

Thanks for all the information. :)

No formula, but here (http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html) is a table that purports to give lumens for halogens, which you can then compare to the lumens.

I should add that I got an over-volted halogen based on this table, and my halogen, supposedly 1500 or so lumens according to this table, looked at most 2x better than my Fenix L2D, not much brighter but with a larger halo.

So either lumens perception goes up only logarithmically or some such nonsense, or the table is nonsense.

Something else to consider, charly17201, is that your NiteHawk is an MR11 bulb. It's a good light but it doesn't put out as much as the MR16 (larger lamp, same voltage). The values that Scharf gives in the above link, for the MR11 10W 6V bulb is 190 lumens. Not too bad but at 7.2V, the same bulb will put out about 350 lumens, which is a stupendous amount of light for such a small bulb. Getting 350 lumens out of a commercial LED system is difficult and expensive but a 7.2V battery is pretty cheap. You could even change the lamp in the NiteHawk to a 15 or 20W bulb (with shorter run times) and overvolting to get to really good light levels. I've done this for a very long time with Niterider and, from what I've seen, the Nite Hawk is constructed well enough to take the extra heat.

Since the technology is changing so fast, it would be wise to wait until things plateau in terms of innovation. It's easy to sink a lot of money into something that may be replaced by far better next generation. If you are willing to build the units yourself, it makes some sense to be on the cutting edge but if you are looking to buy a commercial system, the output of the LEDs currently available just aren't worth the investment. Modifying a commercial halogen system by simply changing the battery is still far more economical and has a much higher light out than just about any commercial LED system out there now.

For charly17201 situation, a $30 battery would blow the doors off an LED system...in terms of light output. If he wanted more run time, a second battery would still be more economical than any commercial system that would put out the same amount of light.

So, what I gather is I can be farther ahead (i.e., brighter lighting) by simply dropping another light in (an MR16 instead of the MR11) or by increasing the voltage - all for a lot less money than getting an led setup. I don't really need longer run times - except when I forget to plug the charger in, but then I have problems with what I have after 2 days anyway.

I think I'll swap out the bulbs first, since that would seem the easiest and cheapest route. :D

Thanks a lot!

An MR16 is a larger bulb than an MR11 and you couldn't just take out the MR11and plug in an MR16 (I wouldn't think at least).

I think it depends on the manufacture and whatever number they come up with, because my 16 watt Halogen CygoLite washes out my 200 Lumen LED SureFire C3!

The Surefire C3 is an incandescent flashlight. The standard incandescent bulb is 105 lumens. The optional high-power incandescent bulb is 200 lumens. If yours is an LED I'm guessing it's a SureFire C3 with a P60L LED replacement lamp assembly, rated at 80 lumens, not 200 lumens.

Since the technology is changing so fast, it would be wise to wait until things plateau in terms of innovation. It's easy to sink a lot of money into something that may be replaced by far better next generation. If you are willing to build the units yourself, it makes some sense to be on the cutting edge but if you are looking to buy a commercial system, the output of the LEDs currently available just aren't worth the investment. Modifying a commercial halogen system by simply changing the battery is still far more economical and has a much higher light out than just about any commercial LED system out there now.

For charly17201 situation, a $30 battery would blow the doors off an LED system...in terms of light output. If he wanted more run time, a second battery would still be more economical than any commercial system that would put out the same amount of light.
LED technology has reached a point where manufacturers can start producing products that will not become obsolete in just weeks or a few months. The SSC P7 can produce light that exceeds DOT limits for highway use. Very soon you'll start seeing them used in automotive headlights and even light bulbs in your home. The flashlight industry has already geared up and is in full production of SSC P7 flashlights. Here is one perfect for handlebar mounting and no DIY required.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13060
It's relativity small, has 8 modes so you can operate it at reduced light levels for extended run times, on high it can produce 900 lumen for 1 hour. and uses rechargeable batteries. Batteries are easily swapped out.
http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_12623_4.jpg

You can't compare the two ratings as a watt is a measurement of power consumption and lumen is a measurement of light output. Besides the actual lamp used, things like lens and reflector design all come into play.

An MR16 is a larger bulb than an MR11 and you couldn't just take out the MR11and plug in an MR16 (I wouldn't think at least).



The Surefire C3 is an incandescent flashlight. The standard incandescent bulb is 105 lumens. The optional high-power incandescent bulb is 200 lumens. If yours is an LED I'm guessing it's a SureFire C3 with a P60L LED replacement lamp assembly, rated at 80 lumens, not 200 lumens.

I got my flashlight numbers mixed up; I have two of them, the LED model is E2D with only 120 lumens which may explain why my 16 watt washed it out.

Thanks for all the information. :)







So, what I gather is I can be farther ahead (i.e., brighter lighting) by simply dropping another light in (an MR16 instead of the MR11) or by increasing the voltage - all for a lot less money than getting an led setup. I don't really need longer run times - except when I forget to plug the charger in, but then I have problems with what I have after 2 days anyway.

I think I'll swap out the bulbs first, since that would seem the easiest and cheapest route. :D

Thanks a lot!

MR11 and MR16 are different sizes. Your system uses an MR11. You can up the wattage (10 to 20W) for about $3 but I'd suggest staying with a narrow spot from BatterySpace (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1138). You will lose run time however. If you increase the voltage, you'll get about double the light at the risk of shorter bulb life. Most halogens have life times of around 2000 hours. You'll get roughly 10% of that at 20% overvoltage...about 200 hours. That's still a lot of commuting. For a 6 V system that's 7.2V. I use RC car batteries.

MR11 and MR16 are different sizes. Your system uses an MR11. You can up the wattage (10 to 20W) for about $3 but I'd suggest staying with a narrow spot from BatterySpace (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=1138). You will lose run time however. If you increase the voltage, you'll get about double the light at the risk of shorter bulb life. Most halogens have life times of around 2000 hours. You'll get roughly 10% of that at 20% overvoltage...about 200 hours. That's still a lot of commuting. For a 6 V system that's 7.2V. I use RC car batteries.

Okay, I'll try a bigger wattage bulb first. I'm not big on electronics and am not interested in building a setup like the ones I've read about in the forum - I probably would if I had the knowledge/skills though.

Battery Space is the cheapest I've seen the bulbs - in fact, Nite Hawk sells replacement bulbs at $15 :eek: Course, as cheap as the bulbs are, I may just order a MR16 and see if it fits.

Okay, I'll try a bigger wattage bulb first. I'm not big on electronics and am not interested in building a setup like the ones I've read about in the forum - I probably would if I had the knowledge/skills though.

Battery Space is the cheapest I've seen the bulbs - in fact, Nite Hawk sells replacement bulbs at $15 :eek: Course, as cheap as the bulbs are, I may just order a MR16 and see if it fits.

You don't need to order the MR16. Just go down to your local big box hardware store and compare (They may have some MR11 but most of them are wide angle floods).

By the way, the system I've built isn't what anyone would call electronics. It's about as simple in terms of electricity as you can get. A battery, a switch and a bulb. About the hardest part is soldering the connectors. And you really don't need to do that. There are lots of crimp connectors out there that will do the job. Think of it more as plumbing with electrons;)

n4zou has some good plans, however, his tend to be more elaborate with real electronics. They probably aren't too difficult to understand but they do take a bit more skill to put together than the simpler systems.

Okay, I'll try a bigger wattage bulb first. I'm not big on electronics and am not interested in building a setup like the ones I've read about in the forum - I probably would if I had the knowledge/skills though.

Battery Space is the cheapest I've seen the bulbs - in fact, Nite Hawk sells replacement bulbs at $15 :eek: Course, as cheap as the bulbs are, I may just order a MR16 and see if it fits.
You may need a socket for that MR-16 bulb. MR-11 bulb pins are different so they use a smaller socket. Here is where you can get new MR-16 sockets without buying the entire fixture for only $1.28 with free shipping. They don't care if thats all you buy.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13920

LED technology has reached a point where manufacturers can start producing products that will not become obsolete in just weeks or a few months. The SSC P7 can produce light that exceeds DOT limits for highway use. Very soon you'll start seeing them used in automotive headlights and even light bulbs in your home. The flashlight industry has already geared up and is in full production of SSC P7 flashlights. Here is one perfect for handlebar mounting and no DIY required.

It's relativity small, has 8 modes so you can operate it at reduced light levels for extended run times, on high it can produce 900 lumen for 1 hour. and uses rechargeable batteries. Batteries are easily swapped out.


In another thread on this light you had this to say

I'm waiting for optics. The only thing available now is a flashlight reflector, and thats getting poor reviews because its a standard reflector they machine a little to fit the P7. As soon as a 10X20 or 15X30 becomes available I'll be all over it.

You've illustrated my point exactly. Buy the light now and you'll end up with something that works but still needs something to reach prime time...just like mountain bike suspension. I absolutely hate using my money to be someone else's R & D lab.

The manufacturers of P7 flashlights are making there own reflectors so the beam pattern is correct and it's a flashlight so you can use it as a flashlight when your not using it on the bicycle. A good flashlight is never obsolete. I just ordered a P7 flashlight myself along with a couple of rechargeable Lithium batteries and a charger. If I'm going to build a dedicated bike light with a P7 I want optics which will produce a pattern like that of an automobile headlight. To be honest when these optics become available I'll be building a couple of them for my motorcycle. My motorcycle has two 35 watt bulbs in front of some really poor reflectors caused by DOT requirements. My dual LED headlight with SSC Z-power LED's and Fraen optics produce a better beam pattern and actually illumines the road better than the dual 35 watt motorcycle headlights! Anyway; It's has been a bumpy ride trying to keep up with the latest LED's. I'm pretty sure it's leveled out. The Cree XR-R LED's are bright enough for use on a bicycle even when powered with a dynamo and the P7 is a suitable replacement for DOT approved 55/65 watt standard halogen automobile headlights. They may also be used for brake, turn, and taillights using driver circuits to control light level output.

The manufacturers of P7 flashlights are making there own reflectors so the beam pattern is correct and it's a flashlight so you can use it as a flashlight when your not using it on the bicycle. A good flashlight is never obsolete. I just ordered a P7 flashlight myself along with a couple of rechargeable Lithium batteries and a charger. If I'm going to build a dedicated bike light with a P7 I want optics which will produce a pattern like that of an automobile headlight. To be honest when these optics become available I'll be building a couple of them for my motorcycle. My motorcycle has two 35 watt bulbs in front of some really poor reflectors caused by DOT requirements. My dual LED headlight with SSC Z-power LED's and Fraen optics produce a better beam pattern and actually illumines the road better than the dual 35 watt motorcycle headlights! Anyway; It's has been a bumpy ride trying to keep up with the latest LED's. I'm pretty sure it's leveled out. The Cree XR-R LED's are bright enough for use on a bicycle even when powered with a dynamo and the P7 is a suitable replacement for DOT approved 55/65 watt standard halogen automobile headlights. They may also be used for brake, turn, and taillights using driver circuits to control light level output.


I don't agree that things have leveled out. The technology is changing rapidly...too rapidly for manufacturers of lighting systems for bicycles too keep up. If you DIY, that's one thing, although even there you are seeing issues with optics and power systems. While there are people building their own systems, the majority of people a purchasing a complete system. Those are 2 to 3 years behind the curve, are expensive, and become obsolete just about the time they are introduced.

Better to wait it out a little until the technology matures...unless you happen to be a trustifarian:D

Okay, so I got the new 20 watt bulbs in the mail yesterday :D and got them swapped out - I had to get the old bulb out to make sure the old one wasn't a 30 or 40 watt.

I haven't ridden in the dark yet with the new bulb, but MAN! the 20 seems so much dimmer :( than the 10! The only thing I can figure until I get out in the dark is that the old 10 had a blue hue to it and the new 20 does not. Does this seem possible to you?

Is the angle different? 20w flood is much dimmer than a 10w spot.

Beam angle as mentioned by znomit would be the leading cause of dimmer light in higher wattage. It could also be colour temperature too... sounds like maybe your old bulb had a higher colour temperature. However, your new bulb with the lower color temperature may acutally make road details easier to discern even though it appears dimmer.

Is the angle different? 20w flood is much dimmer than a 10w spot.

Beam angle as mentioned by znomit would be the leading cause of dimmer light in higher wattage. It could also be colour temperature too... sounds like maybe your old bulb had a higher colour temperature. However, your new bulb with the lower color temperature may acutally make road details easier to discern even though it appears dimmer.

The new bulb is a 12 degree spot. I'm hoping it is just the color difference and I get good results. I'll be giving it a test tonight and see how it goes.

Maybe someday the feds will but controls on these ratings, because I remember back in the day when stereos were being sold with fantastic watt ratings while others were being sold with amp ratings and one would say the other was better. Then the feds stepped in and eliminated the amp ratings and went with wattage as the standard...but the feds had it wrong, the true rating of an amp is the amount of electrical current (amps) being delivered to the speakers; thats why amplifiers are called amplifiers not wattifiers!! Thus if the feds do get involved they'll probably screw it up! Regardless todays watt ratings on amps are often way overblown especially in the low end market like Circuit City, Best Buys etc. and there's no regulations on that practice.


Wattage is a fine way to measure the power of a stereo amp as long as the load being driven,THD (total harmonic distortion) and frequencies tested are given. Example, my Cambridge Audio amp is "only" 40 watts per channel but it is 40/w channel, both channels driven, 20 to 20k, .09% distortion whereas I have another cheap amp rated for 150 w/channel but only one channel driven 1k only, 5% distortion. Its not surprising that the Cambridge amp plays louder and cleaner despite having a much lower power rating.

Okay, sorry for taking so long to post an update..... I just hadn't been out in the dark lately.

I'm quite disappointed in the new 20w bulb. :( It does not have any where near the brightness of the old 10w with the 'blueish' light. Which has really surprised me. The new 'white' light does not seem to have the distance of the old either.

At least it has been an inexpensive trial. :) Now to figure out my next move to brighten up my night/dark/winter rides.

The next step...... and a new thread as I'm going to try and 'build' a headlight........

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=442042