feijai
06-28-08, 04:44 PM
I've posted a long, overly-involved review of the Bike Friday Tikit (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/tikit/). Here's hoping it starts some discussion.
View Full Version : Tikit Review
omnirider
06-28-08, 06:07 PM
Nicely done, very comprehensive. I chuckled at your comment "...equally famously unprofessional website." since I've always thought that Bike Friday's site was a bit on the unpolished side.
Dynocoaster
06-28-08, 06:14 PM
A wonderful review, I was looking into getting a Tikit but after adding several options it was more than I wanted to spend or could afford at this time. Thank you for taking the time to review the bike and look forward to any others that you may do in the future.
tim24k
06-28-08, 06:16 PM
Your "long, overly-involved review" is of a two-year- old out dated no longer made Dahon Helios P8, that you bought "at a fire-sale price". The new Dahons ride and handle better. Maybe that is why the old model Helios P8 you bought was at such a good price.
I've test ridden the Tikit several times and it's not for me, being much to squirrelly, harsher ride, steering stem is very floppy (for the lack of a better word) and it's just too complicated with all the extra cables and such that will in time be in need of even more maintenance down the road then the simpler designed Dahons. You also don't get as good of equipment for a much higher price. It does however fold up fast and very slick. And that cover/carrying handle is way COOL!
I guess ride what fits you and your needs best with whatever puts the biggest smile on your face at the end of the day.
I've test ridden the Tikit several times and it's not for me, being much to squirrelly, harsher ride, steering stem is very floppy (for the lack of a better word) and it's just too complicated with all the extra cables and such that will in time be in need of even more maintenance down the road then the simpler designed Dahons. You also don't get as good of equipment for a much higher price. It does however fold up fast and very slick. And that cover/carrying handle is way COOL!
I guess ride what fits you and your needs best with whatever puts the biggest smile on your face at the end of the day.
feijai
06-28-08, 07:38 PM
The new Dahons ride and handle better. Maybe that is why the old model Helios P8 you bought was at such a good price.
As I mentioned the article, I have also extensively test-driven the 2008 Mu, Speed, and Curve. I have also tested the flex on them (with a measuring device) just as on the Helios. The Mu comes out nearly identically to the Helios. The Speed and Mu also are basically the same too-short geometry. The Curve is of course a different monster altogether, with very significant tradeoffs built into its design.
I have owned three Dahons and have ridden, tested, and measured three other Dahon models (from friends) quite a lot. I think my description is pretty accurate.
steering stem is very floppy (for the lack of a better word)
This sounds very much like you tested the old design, where there's play in the stem hinge, or one without proper cable adjustment. Did you try a tight-cabled 2008? It's like day and night.
As I mentioned the article, I have also extensively test-driven the 2008 Mu, Speed, and Curve. I have also tested the flex on them (with a measuring device) just as on the Helios. The Mu comes out nearly identically to the Helios. The Speed and Mu also are basically the same too-short geometry. The Curve is of course a different monster altogether, with very significant tradeoffs built into its design.
I have owned three Dahons and have ridden, tested, and measured three other Dahon models (from friends) quite a lot. I think my description is pretty accurate.
steering stem is very floppy (for the lack of a better word)
This sounds very much like you tested the old design, where there's play in the stem hinge, or one without proper cable adjustment. Did you try a tight-cabled 2008? It's like day and night.
CaptainSpalding
06-28-08, 08:32 PM
First, let me say that the Tikit is pure genius. I had always thought it a shortcoming of Bike Friday bikes that the handlebar dangled loose rather than folding, and the Tikit answers that issue brilliantly.
I own a Dahon Helios and a Jetstream XP. I can completely fold either of them in under 15 seconds. Under 10 if I'm showing off. I have no idea where you're getting your 30-45 second figure. Maybe I'm just more mechanically inclined.
Steps that you included in your Dahon fold that are superfluous for many Dahon bikes (both of mine):
2. Open handlebar quick-release
3. Rotate handlebars so the brake levers point up
4. Close handlebar quick-release
- Neither of my bikes has a handlebar quick release.
9. Rotate seatmast reflector 180 degrees
11. Rotate seatmast 180 degrees
- Folding either of my Dahons does not require rotating the seatpost.
This is where I started to think you were looking for extra steps to
add just to make folding a Dahon look complicated.
17. Carefully clear wires out of the way of magnets
- I've never had to do this.
18. Engage wheel axle magnets
- this happens all by itself. This is where I became certain you were looking
for extra steps to add just to make folding a Dahon look complicated.
The Dahons aren't the only bikes you bashed. When you are writing a review of a folding bike that might be read by folding bike owners, you should be a little less heavy handed on your criticism of every other bike. It makes it appear that you are a shill, rather than an unbiased reviewer with the interest of his readers at heart. Just my opinion, of course.
I own a Dahon Helios and a Jetstream XP. I can completely fold either of them in under 15 seconds. Under 10 if I'm showing off. I have no idea where you're getting your 30-45 second figure. Maybe I'm just more mechanically inclined.
Steps that you included in your Dahon fold that are superfluous for many Dahon bikes (both of mine):
2. Open handlebar quick-release
3. Rotate handlebars so the brake levers point up
4. Close handlebar quick-release
- Neither of my bikes has a handlebar quick release.
9. Rotate seatmast reflector 180 degrees
11. Rotate seatmast 180 degrees
- Folding either of my Dahons does not require rotating the seatpost.
This is where I started to think you were looking for extra steps to
add just to make folding a Dahon look complicated.
17. Carefully clear wires out of the way of magnets
- I've never had to do this.
18. Engage wheel axle magnets
- this happens all by itself. This is where I became certain you were looking
for extra steps to add just to make folding a Dahon look complicated.
The Dahons aren't the only bikes you bashed. When you are writing a review of a folding bike that might be read by folding bike owners, you should be a little less heavy handed on your criticism of every other bike. It makes it appear that you are a shill, rather than an unbiased reviewer with the interest of his readers at heart. Just my opinion, of course.
makeinu
06-28-08, 09:24 PM
I've posted a long, overly-involved review of the Bike Friday Tikit (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/tikit/). Here's hoping it starts some discussion.
How is Strida "bleeding edge" when they've been on the market longer than Bike Friday has been in business?
Also, just curious, but how does the rack make your Tikit "more stable when folded"? I like the Tikit, but increased stability of the bike when folded is one improvement I'd like to see.
How is Strida "bleeding edge" when they've been on the market longer than Bike Friday has been in business?
Also, just curious, but how does the rack make your Tikit "more stable when folded"? I like the Tikit, but increased stability of the bike when folded is one improvement I'd like to see.
feijai
06-28-08, 09:40 PM
How is Strida "bleeding edge"
"Bleeding Edge" doesn't mean "new".
I own a Dahon Helios and a Jetstream XP. I can completely fold either of them in under 15 seconds. Under 10 if I'm showing off. I have no idea where you're getting your 30-45 second figure.
I timed myself multiple times. And I'm not bad at it.
I think my description was fair. It's the basic procedure for the 2006 Helios, and so far as I can tell the 2007/2008 Speed and Mu as well. The quickrelease items are all standard items on these bikes with extendible stems. The 180 bit enables the bike to be picked up by the saddle easily. At any rate, it's exactly the procedure I do every time -- and now that I think of it, it's exactly the procedure of everyone else I personally know who owns a Dahon too.
"Bleeding Edge" doesn't mean "new".
I own a Dahon Helios and a Jetstream XP. I can completely fold either of them in under 15 seconds. Under 10 if I'm showing off. I have no idea where you're getting your 30-45 second figure.
I timed myself multiple times. And I'm not bad at it.
I think my description was fair. It's the basic procedure for the 2006 Helios, and so far as I can tell the 2007/2008 Speed and Mu as well. The quickrelease items are all standard items on these bikes with extendible stems. The 180 bit enables the bike to be picked up by the saddle easily. At any rate, it's exactly the procedure I do every time -- and now that I think of it, it's exactly the procedure of everyone else I personally know who owns a Dahon too.
CaptainSpalding
06-28-08, 10:23 PM
I timed myself multiple times. And I'm not bad at it.
≥ 45 seconds = you're bad at it. :notamused:
≥ 45 seconds = you're bad at it. :notamused:
jur
06-29-08, 12:18 AM
Very nice review.
Just one point: Smaller wheels are not harsher due to wheel stiffness, that is irrelevant in harshness. (Stiffness is an advantage for pedalling efficiency.) They are harsher because the smaller diameter responds more sharply to road irregularities purely due to geometry considerations. This harshness is easily offset by lower tyre pressure and vertical frame compliance.
Just one point: Smaller wheels are not harsher due to wheel stiffness, that is irrelevant in harshness. (Stiffness is an advantage for pedalling efficiency.) They are harsher because the smaller diameter responds more sharply to road irregularities purely due to geometry considerations. This harshness is easily offset by lower tyre pressure and vertical frame compliance.
PDR
06-29-08, 03:10 AM
That is a nice review of the Tikit.
One thing that has been picked up on by other people is the folding times comparing the Tikit to the Dahon Helios.
I have a 2008 Dahon MU SL and I can easy fold it well within 10 seconds.... don’t forget that this model has the VRO handlebar adjustment system so there is no need to touch the handlebar once set.
All I have to do with mine is to drop and twist the seat post, lower the front stem and fold the bike in half. The peddles are MKS quick release but there is no need to remove these in order to fold the bike.
The MU SL is (apart from the expensive & limited MU VXX) currently the lightest bike in the Dahon line up..... I’m fairly sure that the tikit is somewhat heavier?
I have done several 25 – 30 mile trips on the MU with no trouble, it is a fast and comfortable bike.
One thing that has been picked up on by other people is the folding times comparing the Tikit to the Dahon Helios.
I have a 2008 Dahon MU SL and I can easy fold it well within 10 seconds.... don’t forget that this model has the VRO handlebar adjustment system so there is no need to touch the handlebar once set.
All I have to do with mine is to drop and twist the seat post, lower the front stem and fold the bike in half. The peddles are MKS quick release but there is no need to remove these in order to fold the bike.
The MU SL is (apart from the expensive & limited MU VXX) currently the lightest bike in the Dahon line up..... I’m fairly sure that the tikit is somewhat heavier?
I have done several 25 – 30 mile trips on the MU with no trouble, it is a fast and comfortable bike.
OldiesONfoldies
06-29-08, 04:42 AM
I'm a Dahon owner and had the Helios. Currently the Speed 8, the Speed Pro as well as the tikit are in my stable. I think Feijai comments on Dahons are quite fair and objective. Dahons do have their strengths over the tikit, as much as the tikit is a pretty brilliant bike. Their sales figures speak volumes that they are indeed a quality brand.
One of which is Dahon's value for $, given what you get for its price. For same or less $, you get better components and its wide range make Dahon the Toyota of folding bikes. I also think the finish is better as compared to the tikit. I seem to be getting rust spots here and there on my tikit.
That said, the tikit is IMO the most impressive 16" folder to date and largely agree with your points. My Brompton does not ride as well though that is a special bike in itself that I also love very much.
I have linked your review in my blog because its a great review, period. Congrats on an excellent job! Thanks for sharing it with us, Sean!
OnF :)
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/TikitinPaiPadifieldwMtnBckgrdR.jpg
One of which is Dahon's value for $, given what you get for its price. For same or less $, you get better components and its wide range make Dahon the Toyota of folding bikes. I also think the finish is better as compared to the tikit. I seem to be getting rust spots here and there on my tikit.
That said, the tikit is IMO the most impressive 16" folder to date and largely agree with your points. My Brompton does not ride as well though that is a special bike in itself that I also love very much.
I have linked your review in my blog because its a great review, period. Congrats on an excellent job! Thanks for sharing it with us, Sean!
OnF :)
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/TikitinPaiPadifieldwMtnBckgrdR.jpg
feijai
06-29-08, 07:04 AM
Also, just curious, but how does the rack make your Tikit "more stable when folded"? I like the Tikit, but increased stability of the bike when folded is one improvement I'd like to see.
The rear rack replaces the single point of ground contact above the rear fender with a large rectangular region. It appears that where the rectangular region will impact on the ground (it doesn't hit it flat) depends on the size of the bike; but where it impacts results in a much more stable triangle.
The rear rack replaces the single point of ground contact above the rear fender with a large rectangular region. It appears that where the rectangular region will impact on the ground (it doesn't hit it flat) depends on the size of the bike; but where it impacts results in a much more stable triangle.
New Yorker
06-29-08, 08:03 AM
I enjoyed your thorough review.
I was on the fence between the Tikit and Brompton. For bike commuting here in NYC, where most office buildings won't allow bicycles, I ultimately gave the nod to the Brompton because, folded with its black bag cover, it really does get very small, and I believe the shape—rectangular—draws a bit less attention from office building guards than the folded Tikit would. I can easily carry my Brompton through a revolving door with no problem!
I know the Tikit is a bit better as a bicycle, but I have been very pleasantly surprised by the ride quality and handling of the Brompton. I was expecting it to feel somewhat compromised; something I was willing to accept in exchange for its small folded size. But riding it has been a blast! The fact that I have the lighter (24 lb) Titanium model—and that I'm only 5'6", 135 lbs—probably has a lot to do with this; the Brompton fits me perfectly. (What's more, I'm all leg, with a 31.5" inseam. So I'm short from the waist up, making the Brompton's cozy cockpit perfect for me.) I'm also impressed by the Brompton's quality. To me, it feels very well thought out (it folds/unfolds in about 15 seconds), and it feels quite "solid"—not flimsy the way I imagined it might be. In the month I've had it, commuting every day, I've really grown to admire and respect the Brompton, and look forward to riding it every morning.
I can't wait to ride a Tikit sometime; I'm sure it'll be terrific.
I was on the fence between the Tikit and Brompton. For bike commuting here in NYC, where most office buildings won't allow bicycles, I ultimately gave the nod to the Brompton because, folded with its black bag cover, it really does get very small, and I believe the shape—rectangular—draws a bit less attention from office building guards than the folded Tikit would. I can easily carry my Brompton through a revolving door with no problem!
I know the Tikit is a bit better as a bicycle, but I have been very pleasantly surprised by the ride quality and handling of the Brompton. I was expecting it to feel somewhat compromised; something I was willing to accept in exchange for its small folded size. But riding it has been a blast! The fact that I have the lighter (24 lb) Titanium model—and that I'm only 5'6", 135 lbs—probably has a lot to do with this; the Brompton fits me perfectly. (What's more, I'm all leg, with a 31.5" inseam. So I'm short from the waist up, making the Brompton's cozy cockpit perfect for me.) I'm also impressed by the Brompton's quality. To me, it feels very well thought out (it folds/unfolds in about 15 seconds), and it feels quite "solid"—not flimsy the way I imagined it might be. In the month I've had it, commuting every day, I've really grown to admire and respect the Brompton, and look forward to riding it every morning.
I can't wait to ride a Tikit sometime; I'm sure it'll be terrific.
poboxnyc
06-29-08, 10:34 AM
I enjoyed your thorough review.
I was on the fence between the Tikit and Brompton. For bike commuting here in NYC, where most office buildings won't allow bicycles, I ultimately gave the nod to the Brompton because, folded with its black bag cover, it really does get very small, and I believe the shape—rectangular—draws a bit less attention from office building guards than the folded Tikit would. I can easily carry my Brompton through a revolving door with no problem!
I came to the same conclusion myself. Just got a Brompton last week and love the bike -- it was the right decision for my particular needs.
Rode the Xooter Swift, Tiket and Brompton. Swift was my favorite riding bike, Tiket second and Brompton 3rd--though not by much. Compactness of fold and portability is a premium to me and nothing comes close to the Brompton -- it is the easiest to carry on a subway or bus or take into a restaurant and place under a table etc--even without a bag, it brings almost no attention to itself as it carries very neatly at my side like a large briefcase. Brompton was far easier to roll (as much as I tried to like rolling the Tiket) especially with the larger rolling wheels on the rear rack. It is also much easier to carry. I got the heavier duty brakes and have no issue at all-- I think they work beautifully.
The Brompton quick release luggage system was also a big selling point--- I got the large front pannier and it hold 28 liters and I intend to use it for food shopping at our local food coop in Park Slope -- the idea of rolling the Brompton on the rear rack and using it as a shopping cart is a brilliant design in my opinion. Last thursday evening we had picnic in the park for 4 people and there was lot to carry, when it occured to me to pack it in the front bag and bike up --- the pannier easily held everything including a 1/2 watermelon -- so I went ahead and found a nicely lite area under a tree on a rise and biked up, kicked down the rear rack and parked the bike and set up the picnic. It looked like an ad for Brompton with the red bike sitting on the side on the rise beneath a tree.
Friday, my daughter, age 8 rode her 16'' wheeled trek and I took the Brompton -- to our local burger joint---they wouldn't let us take the little trek in (we left it safely outside the door in the street cafe area) I folded the brompton and discretely put it right under the table and no one even noticed.
I enjoy being on the bike so much I try to find every excuse in the evening to run and errand -- of course the errand runs much longer as I enjoy wandering aimless on this little bike. It's been a joy for me to own. It's not a performance bike like the Swift, but then again, that's not what I bought it for. It suits my needs for city living perfectly.
I was on the fence between the Tikit and Brompton. For bike commuting here in NYC, where most office buildings won't allow bicycles, I ultimately gave the nod to the Brompton because, folded with its black bag cover, it really does get very small, and I believe the shape—rectangular—draws a bit less attention from office building guards than the folded Tikit would. I can easily carry my Brompton through a revolving door with no problem!
I came to the same conclusion myself. Just got a Brompton last week and love the bike -- it was the right decision for my particular needs.
Rode the Xooter Swift, Tiket and Brompton. Swift was my favorite riding bike, Tiket second and Brompton 3rd--though not by much. Compactness of fold and portability is a premium to me and nothing comes close to the Brompton -- it is the easiest to carry on a subway or bus or take into a restaurant and place under a table etc--even without a bag, it brings almost no attention to itself as it carries very neatly at my side like a large briefcase. Brompton was far easier to roll (as much as I tried to like rolling the Tiket) especially with the larger rolling wheels on the rear rack. It is also much easier to carry. I got the heavier duty brakes and have no issue at all-- I think they work beautifully.
The Brompton quick release luggage system was also a big selling point--- I got the large front pannier and it hold 28 liters and I intend to use it for food shopping at our local food coop in Park Slope -- the idea of rolling the Brompton on the rear rack and using it as a shopping cart is a brilliant design in my opinion. Last thursday evening we had picnic in the park for 4 people and there was lot to carry, when it occured to me to pack it in the front bag and bike up --- the pannier easily held everything including a 1/2 watermelon -- so I went ahead and found a nicely lite area under a tree on a rise and biked up, kicked down the rear rack and parked the bike and set up the picnic. It looked like an ad for Brompton with the red bike sitting on the side on the rise beneath a tree.
Friday, my daughter, age 8 rode her 16'' wheeled trek and I took the Brompton -- to our local burger joint---they wouldn't let us take the little trek in (we left it safely outside the door in the street cafe area) I folded the brompton and discretely put it right under the table and no one even noticed.
I enjoy being on the bike so much I try to find every excuse in the evening to run and errand -- of course the errand runs much longer as I enjoy wandering aimless on this little bike. It's been a joy for me to own. It's not a performance bike like the Swift, but then again, that's not what I bought it for. It suits my needs for city living perfectly.
v6v6v6
06-29-08, 01:45 PM
feijai, you've obviously put some effort into this review but in my opinion it's very heavily biased and uneven. It seems like you're just as ready to bash Dahons as you are to give the Tikit high marks.
Here are some examples:
- Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
- Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
- There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses. So to give a little better perspective, here's a video of the Mu SL (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/darthsauce/musl/?action=view¤t=20080629029.flv) which I believe is one of the fastest folds Dahon provides. (Please note: I don't normally make use of the safety clips on the handlepost or the frame fold--please add a generous 1/2 second for each.)
- "Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
- "Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
I can certainly appreciate good reviews and I realize that all are usually tinged with some bias, but we've really gotta call this one for what it really is: "How the Dahon Helios P8 pales in comparison to my new Tikit." Please understand I'm neither trying to bash you nor am I trying to praise Dahon (I'm NOT a Dahon fanboi :lol:), but the way you sell the Tikit at the expense of an older, inferior model isn't useful as far as reviews go.
But otherwise... I'd like to try one!
Here are some examples:
- Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
- Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
- There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses. So to give a little better perspective, here's a video of the Mu SL (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/darthsauce/musl/?action=view¤t=20080629029.flv) which I believe is one of the fastest folds Dahon provides. (Please note: I don't normally make use of the safety clips on the handlepost or the frame fold--please add a generous 1/2 second for each.)
- "Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
- "Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
I can certainly appreciate good reviews and I realize that all are usually tinged with some bias, but we've really gotta call this one for what it really is: "How the Dahon Helios P8 pales in comparison to my new Tikit." Please understand I'm neither trying to bash you nor am I trying to praise Dahon (I'm NOT a Dahon fanboi :lol:), but the way you sell the Tikit at the expense of an older, inferior model isn't useful as far as reviews go.
But otherwise... I'd like to try one!
StuAff
06-29-08, 04:21 PM
My Dahon takes me over 30 seconds to fold, but that's because a. I'm a bit of a klutz and b. The seatpost is a bit stiff to move up and down, a glitch I'm still working on sorting. But it's not much longer than that, hardly a bother. OMG, a whole extra 20 seconds or so to fold/unfold? I got my bike as 'a bike that folds when I need or want' rather than 'a folding bike'. I'd hazard a guess that I'd be a darn sight quicker on my XP than a regular-geared Tikit like that one over a run of any length, and more than make up increased folding time on the road. The DualDrive-equipped Travel Tikit would be a better match in performance, but also more expensive (and a stock Tikit is £900 or so in the UK!). My bike has a creaky handlepost, but doesn't flex, fits my 5' 11" fine, is anything but uncomfortable for long runs (I've done 40 miles at one go with no bother) and rides and handles beautifully. It's done two years of commuting 60 miles a week for its first owner, I'm doing 20-40 every weekend, and it's still in great condition. I've had a few tech questions for Dahon, all answered comprehensively and promptly. I'm sure Dahon build the odd lemon, but all big manufacturers (whatever the product) do. I'm sure even BF have made them. Dahons are made in Taiwan, not mainland China, and the Mu SL is as fragile as it is slow- and it ain't slow. Come over to the UK for the next Smithfield Nocturne folding race and see how slow and fragile it is :)
I'm not having a go at BF or their products- no experience of them, but they're great from what I've heard. The Tikit looks like a great bike, wouldn't mind having one myself (though I think another BF model would suit me better- or perhaps Rob English's speeding Tikit!!)... but I can't agree with some of your views on Dahons. Nice review, all the same.
I'm not having a go at BF or their products- no experience of them, but they're great from what I've heard. The Tikit looks like a great bike, wouldn't mind having one myself (though I think another BF model would suit me better- or perhaps Rob English's speeding Tikit!!)... but I can't agree with some of your views on Dahons. Nice review, all the same.
makeinu
06-29-08, 04:50 PM
In the name of discussion, I'd just like to say that although I personally like the idea of the Tikit, in practice I don't think it's currently living up to the hype:
-Does a folded Tikit roll more easily than other folders?
Not really. With a high asymmetrical center of mass balancing on a single wheel I actually think the Dahon Mu (or even my Downtube VIIIH) rolls more easily with the brakes properly adjusted and the handlebars up. Granted, a folded Tikit is way less than half the size of a Dahon with handlebars up, but the point is that the rolling ability of the Tikit is more of a compromise than the marketing makes it out to be. It's a noble effort on the part of Bike Friday and they got the person to bike contact point right with the integrated handle, but the bike to ground contact just isn't there yet.
-Does the Tikit fold faster/more-easily than other folders?
Yes and no. No doubt Bike Friday's cable system is a brilliant innovation, but when I test folded the Tikit at a local bike shop I had to fiddle a bit in order to get things to latch up just right. Now maybe the shop didn't have the cables adjusted properly, but if it's too much trouble for the professionals to adjust then why would I want to go through the same trouble as an owner after a few years of abuse? Granted, Dahon's simple latches have also been known to eventually develop problems, but I've never heard of a Dahon having a finicky latch in the show room. Now I understand that Bike Friday has already improved the latch system since the Tikit was first released, but how are those of us that don't want to be beta testers supposed to know when the Tikit has finally reached version 1.0?
-Is the Tikit more commuter friendly than other folding bikes?
It's certainly not the best. The fact that the chain and the sprocket are on the inside of the fold is good, but the chain wheel itself is still on the outside of the fold. Plus there's no internal hub option. Now I know that some folks like the Tikit for the very reason that it features a derailleur in it's drive train, but due to the indoor/outdoor nature of folding bikes I personally feel that commuter friendly parts like internal hubs and chaincases (or at least derailleurless drivetrains which run acceptably without oil) are a necessity. Now, I see from Walter's Bike Friday blog that they have an innovative new design for rear dropouts in the works that should make commuter friendly drivetrains for the Tikit easy as pie and when it's finally released I may be singing their praises, but for now I'm having a hard time understanding why Bike Friday would make a derailleur the only available option on a bike that they're marketing as a dedicated commuter.
-Does the Tikit have a better ride than other folding bikes?
In my opinion no. When I test rode a Tikit at the local bike shop I actually found the ride less confidence inspiring than my Carryme. My biggest complaint was that I felt way too far over the front wheel. Now, would I have like it better if the bike were sized differently? Perhaps, but I've never had this problem with any of the "one size fits all" folders I've ridden and the Tikit I test rode was the size specifically recommended by Bike Friday and, once again, if the professionals can't get it right then how can I (or should I want to) do it? Maybe you 5'2" and 6'10" folks don't have any other option for a decent fit, but at 5'7" 130 pounds the only thing I see myself getting out of a custom fit is the frustration of receiving the wrong size.
-Does Bike Friday have better customer service than other companies?
That depends on the customer. They certainly have more personal touch, but not everyone likes that. Not everyone wants to have to send a bike back to get an order right or waste time discussing superfluous options on the phone. Some of us prefer our retailers to feel that they only have one chance to get it right in order to encourage a brief sale process and clear and concise product documentation. I know it's a matter of personal taste, but I can't say I'm a fan Bike Friday's customer service model and although I'm sure their typical leisure customers think it's great, I believe that, like myself, most customers in the target market for the Tikit would prefer a more direct, no frills, approach.
All in all, I like the Tikit, I really do and I am immensely happy that the product is doing well and that many people are finding it meets their needs so that we can all look forward to more innovation and development in the future. However, I personally feel I'm better off sticking my money in the bank while Bike Friday works out the kinks. The question is, by the time they have worked out all the kinks will the competition be offering something better? Will competition from Neobike/Merc/Flamingo force Brompton to offer better prices, more drivetrain options, and weights below 20 pounds? Will Mark Sander's new IF bikes prove to be more convenient and better riding than the Tikit? Will Dahon's upcoming ultracompact Curl ride well enough, be light enough, be cheap enough, and have enough drivetrain possibilities to best both the Tikit and the Brompton at their own games?
-Does a folded Tikit roll more easily than other folders?
Not really. With a high asymmetrical center of mass balancing on a single wheel I actually think the Dahon Mu (or even my Downtube VIIIH) rolls more easily with the brakes properly adjusted and the handlebars up. Granted, a folded Tikit is way less than half the size of a Dahon with handlebars up, but the point is that the rolling ability of the Tikit is more of a compromise than the marketing makes it out to be. It's a noble effort on the part of Bike Friday and they got the person to bike contact point right with the integrated handle, but the bike to ground contact just isn't there yet.
-Does the Tikit fold faster/more-easily than other folders?
Yes and no. No doubt Bike Friday's cable system is a brilliant innovation, but when I test folded the Tikit at a local bike shop I had to fiddle a bit in order to get things to latch up just right. Now maybe the shop didn't have the cables adjusted properly, but if it's too much trouble for the professionals to adjust then why would I want to go through the same trouble as an owner after a few years of abuse? Granted, Dahon's simple latches have also been known to eventually develop problems, but I've never heard of a Dahon having a finicky latch in the show room. Now I understand that Bike Friday has already improved the latch system since the Tikit was first released, but how are those of us that don't want to be beta testers supposed to know when the Tikit has finally reached version 1.0?
-Is the Tikit more commuter friendly than other folding bikes?
It's certainly not the best. The fact that the chain and the sprocket are on the inside of the fold is good, but the chain wheel itself is still on the outside of the fold. Plus there's no internal hub option. Now I know that some folks like the Tikit for the very reason that it features a derailleur in it's drive train, but due to the indoor/outdoor nature of folding bikes I personally feel that commuter friendly parts like internal hubs and chaincases (or at least derailleurless drivetrains which run acceptably without oil) are a necessity. Now, I see from Walter's Bike Friday blog that they have an innovative new design for rear dropouts in the works that should make commuter friendly drivetrains for the Tikit easy as pie and when it's finally released I may be singing their praises, but for now I'm having a hard time understanding why Bike Friday would make a derailleur the only available option on a bike that they're marketing as a dedicated commuter.
-Does the Tikit have a better ride than other folding bikes?
In my opinion no. When I test rode a Tikit at the local bike shop I actually found the ride less confidence inspiring than my Carryme. My biggest complaint was that I felt way too far over the front wheel. Now, would I have like it better if the bike were sized differently? Perhaps, but I've never had this problem with any of the "one size fits all" folders I've ridden and the Tikit I test rode was the size specifically recommended by Bike Friday and, once again, if the professionals can't get it right then how can I (or should I want to) do it? Maybe you 5'2" and 6'10" folks don't have any other option for a decent fit, but at 5'7" 130 pounds the only thing I see myself getting out of a custom fit is the frustration of receiving the wrong size.
-Does Bike Friday have better customer service than other companies?
That depends on the customer. They certainly have more personal touch, but not everyone likes that. Not everyone wants to have to send a bike back to get an order right or waste time discussing superfluous options on the phone. Some of us prefer our retailers to feel that they only have one chance to get it right in order to encourage a brief sale process and clear and concise product documentation. I know it's a matter of personal taste, but I can't say I'm a fan Bike Friday's customer service model and although I'm sure their typical leisure customers think it's great, I believe that, like myself, most customers in the target market for the Tikit would prefer a more direct, no frills, approach.
All in all, I like the Tikit, I really do and I am immensely happy that the product is doing well and that many people are finding it meets their needs so that we can all look forward to more innovation and development in the future. However, I personally feel I'm better off sticking my money in the bank while Bike Friday works out the kinks. The question is, by the time they have worked out all the kinks will the competition be offering something better? Will competition from Neobike/Merc/Flamingo force Brompton to offer better prices, more drivetrain options, and weights below 20 pounds? Will Mark Sander's new IF bikes prove to be more convenient and better riding than the Tikit? Will Dahon's upcoming ultracompact Curl ride well enough, be light enough, be cheap enough, and have enough drivetrain possibilities to best both the Tikit and the Brompton at their own games?
OldiesONfoldies
06-29-08, 07:45 PM
feijai, you've obviously put some effort into this review but in my opinion it's very heavily biased and uneven. It seems like you're just as ready to bash Dahons as you are to give the Tikit high marks.
Here are some examples:
- Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
- Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
- There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses. So to give a little better perspective, here's a video of the Mu SL (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/darthsauce/musl/?action=view¤t=20080629029.flv) which I believe is one of the fastest folds Dahon provides. (Please note: I don't normally make use of the safety clips on the handlepost or the frame fold--please add a generous 1/2 second for each.)
- "Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
- "Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
I can certainly appreciate good reviews and I realize that all are usually tinged with some bias, but we've really gotta call this one for what it really is: "How the Dahon Helios P8 pales in comparison to my new Tikit." Please understand I'm neither trying to bash you nor am I trying to praise Dahon (I'm NOT a Dahon fanboi :lol:), but the way you sell the Tikit at the expense of an older, inferior model isn't useful as far as reviews go.
But otherwise... I'd like to try one!
Thks for the great video V6. That was a less than 10 secs fold for the MU SL But to be fair, the Helios, Speed 8 and others without the fixed stem cannot fold so easily. The handlebar post have to be fiddled and adjusted before the frame can be properly folded and magnets engaged.
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose.
I hope he would write a 6 month review of the tikit and see if the tikit measures up. The tendency is for all of us to be pretty enthusiastic abt our new purchase and thats understandable. It was very magnimous of him to put a lot of effort in writing and sharing his review with us and for that, he must be commended. Trust this will inspire more owner reviews about their various bikes. With all the objective criticisms and feedback, I think shills will stay away.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/S8nCurve.jpg
Dahons with adjustable handlebar post like the Speed 8, D7, Curve etc take longer to fold than fixed ones.
I appreciate all the contributions on this thread so far. You guys certainly know your stuff abt foldies and I'm soaking it in ... :)
Here are some examples:
- Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
- Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
- There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses. So to give a little better perspective, here's a video of the Mu SL (http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/darthsauce/musl/?action=view¤t=20080629029.flv) which I believe is one of the fastest folds Dahon provides. (Please note: I don't normally make use of the safety clips on the handlepost or the frame fold--please add a generous 1/2 second for each.)
- "Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
- "Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
I can certainly appreciate good reviews and I realize that all are usually tinged with some bias, but we've really gotta call this one for what it really is: "How the Dahon Helios P8 pales in comparison to my new Tikit." Please understand I'm neither trying to bash you nor am I trying to praise Dahon (I'm NOT a Dahon fanboi :lol:), but the way you sell the Tikit at the expense of an older, inferior model isn't useful as far as reviews go.
But otherwise... I'd like to try one!
Thks for the great video V6. That was a less than 10 secs fold for the MU SL But to be fair, the Helios, Speed 8 and others without the fixed stem cannot fold so easily. The handlebar post have to be fiddled and adjusted before the frame can be properly folded and magnets engaged.
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose.
I hope he would write a 6 month review of the tikit and see if the tikit measures up. The tendency is for all of us to be pretty enthusiastic abt our new purchase and thats understandable. It was very magnimous of him to put a lot of effort in writing and sharing his review with us and for that, he must be commended. Trust this will inspire more owner reviews about their various bikes. With all the objective criticisms and feedback, I think shills will stay away.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/S8nCurve.jpg
Dahons with adjustable handlebar post like the Speed 8, D7, Curve etc take longer to fold than fixed ones.
I appreciate all the contributions on this thread so far. You guys certainly know your stuff abt foldies and I'm soaking it in ... :)
v6v6v6
06-29-08, 09:45 PM
Thks for the great video V6. That was a less than 10 secs fold for the MU SL But to be fair, the Helios, Speed 8 and others without the fixed stem cannot fold so easily. The handlebar post have to be fiddled and adjusted before the frame can be properly folded and magnets engaged. Yeah, my wife has a Vitesse D7 so I understand it takes more time for the adjustable handleposts, but I guess I'd rather see the tikit compared against the higher end models (Mu SL, Mu XXV, Speed TR, Speed Pro) rather than bikes half the price and targeted at a different audience.
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose. Yeah, I really don't mind personal experience tinging a review but I read it as bordering on a side-by-side comparison of unequal products, like comparing a slightly older Honda Accord with a new model Lexus. Swap that older Honda with an Acura and we're all good (sorry for the car metaphor :)). Having said that, I understand we don't have multiple brands and models at our disposal to do proper comparisons, in which it's better to limit or avoid them IMHO.
Kudos guys!
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose. Yeah, I really don't mind personal experience tinging a review but I read it as bordering on a side-by-side comparison of unequal products, like comparing a slightly older Honda Accord with a new model Lexus. Swap that older Honda with an Acura and we're all good (sorry for the car metaphor :)). Having said that, I understand we don't have multiple brands and models at our disposal to do proper comparisons, in which it's better to limit or avoid them IMHO.
Kudos guys!
makeinu
06-29-08, 09:46 PM
Thks for the great video V6. That was a less than 10 secs fold for the MU SL But to be fair, the Helios, Speed 8 and others without the fixed stem cannot fold so easily. The handlebar post have to be fiddled and adjusted before the frame can be properly folded and magnets engaged.
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose.
I hope he would write a 6 month review of the tikit and see if the tikit measures up. The tendency is for all of us to be pretty enthusiastic abt our new purchase and thats understandable. It was very magnimous of him to put a lot of effort in writing and sharing his review with us and for that, he must be commended. Trust this will inspire more owner reviews about their various bikes. With all the objective criticisms and feedback, I think shills will stay away.
Dahons with adjustable handlebar post like the Speed 8, D7, Curve etc take longer to fold than fixed ones.
I appreciate all the contributions on this thread so far. You guys certainly know your stuff abt foldies and I'm soaking it in ... :)
^^^
The wisest guy in the forum...makes the rest of us look like a bunch of self-important, grumpy, stubborn, old b***.
Being a pretty satisfied Dahon owner (owned 4), I dont think the review verged on Dahon bashing. He was sharing from his ownership experience and that's fair dinkum. Quote - "the Helios is a good bike right smack in the mainstream of compact folders", though you could poke holes here and there I suppose.
I hope he would write a 6 month review of the tikit and see if the tikit measures up. The tendency is for all of us to be pretty enthusiastic abt our new purchase and thats understandable. It was very magnimous of him to put a lot of effort in writing and sharing his review with us and for that, he must be commended. Trust this will inspire more owner reviews about their various bikes. With all the objective criticisms and feedback, I think shills will stay away.
Dahons with adjustable handlebar post like the Speed 8, D7, Curve etc take longer to fold than fixed ones.
I appreciate all the contributions on this thread so far. You guys certainly know your stuff abt foldies and I'm soaking it in ... :)
^^^
The wisest guy in the forum...makes the rest of us look like a bunch of self-important, grumpy, stubborn, old b***.
OldiesONfoldies
06-30-08, 01:47 AM
"Yeah, my wife has a Vitesse D7 so I understand it takes more time for the adjustable handleposts, but I guess I'd rather see the tikit compared against the higher end models (Mu SL, Mu XXV, Speed TR, Speed Pro) rather than bikes half the price and targeted at a different audience."
Fair enough :)
"The wisest guy in the forum...makes the rest of us look like a bunch of self-important, grumpy, stubborn, old b***. "
Wow Makeinu, not sure if I deserve the wisest guy tag. But thanks for your kind words as always:) Its folks like you and the generally very civil exchange of good, diverse but intelligent views that make this forum a pleasure to share and learn from unlike some other forums.
Howz your Carry Me lately? I suppose that would be in the "Bleeding Edge" segment of Feijai's review.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/FoldedTikitwCarryMeR-1.jpg
Fair enough :)
"The wisest guy in the forum...makes the rest of us look like a bunch of self-important, grumpy, stubborn, old b***. "
Wow Makeinu, not sure if I deserve the wisest guy tag. But thanks for your kind words as always:) Its folks like you and the generally very civil exchange of good, diverse but intelligent views that make this forum a pleasure to share and learn from unlike some other forums.
Howz your Carry Me lately? I suppose that would be in the "Bleeding Edge" segment of Feijai's review.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l260/oldiesonfoldies/FoldedTikitwCarryMeR-1.jpg
feijai
06-30-08, 07:57 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments. I've made some tweaks to the review in response.
poboxnyc wrote:
Rode the Xooter Swift, Tiket and Brompton. Swift was my favorite riding bike,
I like the Swift too! Rides very well. Sadly, it does not fit in my closet. That was a purchase constraint.
v6v6v6 wrote:
Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
That's fair, but we're only talking about a 2-year difference. Besides, as mentioned in the article, I also tested and measured the 2008 Mu P8, 2008 Speed P8, and (different of course) the 2008 Curve quite a lot with friends who own them. The Mu and Speed have new latches, but they still squeak and click when they loosen. Not a big deal, just lube and tighten. The Mu and Speed have the same geometry as the Helios: it's not changed. Also not changing: the adjustable stems pop when riding and rotate as much as 15 degrees on you. And they also have the same folding pattern. Basically, the same faults I'd found in my Helios have held for all the mainstream 2008 adjustable-stem Dahon folders.
Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
That's true. But what can I do? They're the bikes I own.
There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses.
I've gone back and timed the procedure on the Helios and Speed P8 again: about 30 seconds. I'm sorry, that's what it is.
"Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
Yes, it does, though it was meant lightly. So I've taken out. Note: I've lived in southern China for a fairly long time. I think you'd be shocked by the worker situation in factories there. But I have no information about Dahon's.
"Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
Spokes mostly. But there's no reason to mention its fragility, I've pulled it.
StuAff wrote:
Dahons are made in Taiwan, not mainland China,
I believe Dahon's primary facility is in [URL="http://www.dahon.com/news/dahonnews/11292002.htm"]Shenzhen, China[URL], a large industrial city near Hong Kong.
makeinu wrote:
With a high asymmetrical center of mass balancing on a single wheel I actually think the Dahon Mu (or even my Downtube VIIIH) rolls more easily with the brakes properly adjusted and the handlebars up.
I cannot speak to the Mu, but I find the Tikit rolls *far* better than the Helios. I can actually roll with it, in proper folded position, and do so regularly. With the Helios I *always* pick it up.
My biggest complaint was that I felt way too far over the front wheel.
I went back and compared to my old Specialized Rockhopper and my wife's new Trek 7.5FX. Because it has much smaller wheels, the angle of attack of the steering is about, oh, about 10 degrees more vertical. But when you put the wheels at the same point where they touch the ground, the stock Medium Tikit handlebar pivot is actually an inch more "laid back" than the Rockhopper and at the same position as the 7.5Fx. Could it be that the small wheel gave you a misperception?
poboxnyc wrote:
Rode the Xooter Swift, Tiket and Brompton. Swift was my favorite riding bike,
I like the Swift too! Rides very well. Sadly, it does not fit in my closet. That was a purchase constraint.
v6v6v6 wrote:
Your statement that the Dahon Helios P8 is "typical of many Dahons, like the Mu and Speed" is a very broad generalization and based on an older model.
That's fair, but we're only talking about a 2-year difference. Besides, as mentioned in the article, I also tested and measured the 2008 Mu P8, 2008 Speed P8, and (different of course) the 2008 Curve quite a lot with friends who own them. The Mu and Speed have new latches, but they still squeak and click when they loosen. Not a big deal, just lube and tighten. The Mu and Speed have the same geometry as the Helios: it's not changed. Also not changing: the adjustable stems pop when riding and rotate as much as 15 degrees on you. And they also have the same folding pattern. Basically, the same faults I'd found in my Helios have held for all the mainstream 2008 adjustable-stem Dahon folders.
Even though you identify Dahon as "...the Dell of folding bikes: the value leader..." and you place BF into the "high end", you still proceed to compare the two.
That's true. But what can I do? They're the bikes I own.
There's no doubt the Tikit folds easier (bump, lift, fold, roll--awesome!), but in your folding comparison you make it seem like Dahons fold like molasses.
I've gone back and timed the procedure on the Helios and Speed P8 again: about 30 seconds. I'm sorry, that's what it is.
"Yes, it’s 100% made in the USA by people paid a decent wage, rather than in sweatshops in China." Wow, I believe this borders on flat-out defamation.
Yes, it does, though it was meant lightly. So I've taken out. Note: I've lived in southern China for a fairly long time. I think you'd be shocked by the worker situation in factories there. But I have no information about Dahon's.
"Dahon’s ultralight, and fragile, Mu SL is 19.5 pounds." How exactly is the Mu SL fragile (besides it being fragile looking)?
Spokes mostly. But there's no reason to mention its fragility, I've pulled it.
StuAff wrote:
Dahons are made in Taiwan, not mainland China,
I believe Dahon's primary facility is in [URL="http://www.dahon.com/news/dahonnews/11292002.htm"]Shenzhen, China[URL], a large industrial city near Hong Kong.
makeinu wrote:
With a high asymmetrical center of mass balancing on a single wheel I actually think the Dahon Mu (or even my Downtube VIIIH) rolls more easily with the brakes properly adjusted and the handlebars up.
I cannot speak to the Mu, but I find the Tikit rolls *far* better than the Helios. I can actually roll with it, in proper folded position, and do so regularly. With the Helios I *always* pick it up.
My biggest complaint was that I felt way too far over the front wheel.
I went back and compared to my old Specialized Rockhopper and my wife's new Trek 7.5FX. Because it has much smaller wheels, the angle of attack of the steering is about, oh, about 10 degrees more vertical. But when you put the wheels at the same point where they touch the ground, the stock Medium Tikit handlebar pivot is actually an inch more "laid back" than the Rockhopper and at the same position as the 7.5Fx. Could it be that the small wheel gave you a misperception?
feijai
06-30-08, 09:12 AM
Just one point: Smaller wheels are not harsher due to wheel stiffness, that is irrelevant in harshness. (Stiffness is an advantage for pedalling efficiency.) They are harsher because the smaller diameter responds more sharply to road irregularities purely due to geometry considerations.
Thanks, you're correct, review modified accordingly.
Thanks, you're correct, review modified accordingly.
Simple Simon
06-30-08, 03:35 PM
Hey FeiJai - thanks for the report this is exactly the sort of thing that makes this forum one of THE best. I also appreciate your willingness to acknowledge the feedback - thats big !
I have only sat on a Tikit and had it demo'd so have to rely on your and (at the other extreme) makeinu reports. My only comments are that it needs a special 'knack' to fold... the guy took 2 attempts to do it (and he sells them !). Just sitting on it, the bars felt quite flexible - surely not the same flex that carries racer designer Rob English ?
No .... my main gripe is your comments on my preferred multimode rolling folder - Strida ... It may, to untried eyes look different but there is reason for this - fine multimodal ability. Not 'unrealistic' / ' clown bike ' / bleeding edge etc. Have you actually ridden one, folded and rolled one ? Its for urban use - rather than long distance racing, but you may be surprised, especially with the Strida5.
I have only sat on a Tikit and had it demo'd so have to rely on your and (at the other extreme) makeinu reports. My only comments are that it needs a special 'knack' to fold... the guy took 2 attempts to do it (and he sells them !). Just sitting on it, the bars felt quite flexible - surely not the same flex that carries racer designer Rob English ?
No .... my main gripe is your comments on my preferred multimode rolling folder - Strida ... It may, to untried eyes look different but there is reason for this - fine multimodal ability. Not 'unrealistic' / ' clown bike ' / bleeding edge etc. Have you actually ridden one, folded and rolled one ? Its for urban use - rather than long distance racing, but you may be surprised, especially with the Strida5.
stridaguy
06-30-08, 04:21 PM
I've posted a long, overly-involved review of the Bike Friday Tikit (http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/tikit/). Here's hoping it starts some discussion.
Tikit vs Strida
Strida costs approx 800 usd and Tikit starts at approx 1740 usd - so they are in different markets.
Strida is approx 4 lbs lighter and folds longer but thinner in both other dimensions so it can easily be lifted and fits in train overhead luggage areas ... like this ..
putting a Tikit in train overhead luggage area would be too heavy and way too big (only the 8" wheeled carry-me by pacific can do this better).
Tikit has a 90Kg (200Lbs) weight limit, Strida has a larger105Kg (230lbs) weight limit.
Stridas handlebars are stiffer than Tikits
Strida is much more stable when rolling (as it rolls on 2 wheels)
Strida also Stands more stable on its rack when folded
Strida take a much smaller footprint when stood vertically (eg when sitting, or standing with it on on train), Ticket cannot stand vertically.
Best about Tikit..
1. Gears (but that will change soon)
2. Space for longer wheel base and more conventional geometry... that's inherent and will not change
3. A professional standard bike racer on the development and promotion team (Rob English .. this guy can ride [any] bike fast !!)
Tikit vs Strida
Strida costs approx 800 usd and Tikit starts at approx 1740 usd - so they are in different markets.
Strida is approx 4 lbs lighter and folds longer but thinner in both other dimensions so it can easily be lifted and fits in train overhead luggage areas ... like this ..
putting a Tikit in train overhead luggage area would be too heavy and way too big (only the 8" wheeled carry-me by pacific can do this better).
Tikit has a 90Kg (200Lbs) weight limit, Strida has a larger105Kg (230lbs) weight limit.
Stridas handlebars are stiffer than Tikits
Strida is much more stable when rolling (as it rolls on 2 wheels)
Strida also Stands more stable on its rack when folded
Strida take a much smaller footprint when stood vertically (eg when sitting, or standing with it on on train), Ticket cannot stand vertically.
Best about Tikit..
1. Gears (but that will change soon)
2. Space for longer wheel base and more conventional geometry... that's inherent and will not change
3. A professional standard bike racer on the development and promotion team (Rob English .. this guy can ride [any] bike fast !!)
StuAff
06-30-08, 04:27 PM
[QUOTE=feijai;6972261]Thanks everyone for your comments. I've made some tweaks to the review in response.
StuAff wrote:
I believe Dahon's primary facility is in [URL="http://www.dahon.com/news/dahonnews/11292002.htm"]Shenzhen, China[URL], a large industrial city near Hong Kong.
If we're being pedantic, and we are a little in this thread, Dahon's site actually lists plants in Taiwan, Macau, Czech Republic and China. That's 'primary facilities' in four places, it doesn't list what gets done where (though I imagine all the Chinese models that turn up on eBay are all built there). And the bought-in parts are of course (like most other bike manufacturers, including BF) made wherever SRAM, Shimano etc build them.
And paired-spoke wheels aren't fragile. Not on the road, anyway. Many pro riders past and present use them.
StuAff wrote:
I believe Dahon's primary facility is in [URL="http://www.dahon.com/news/dahonnews/11292002.htm"]Shenzhen, China[URL], a large industrial city near Hong Kong.
If we're being pedantic, and we are a little in this thread, Dahon's site actually lists plants in Taiwan, Macau, Czech Republic and China. That's 'primary facilities' in four places, it doesn't list what gets done where (though I imagine all the Chinese models that turn up on eBay are all built there). And the bought-in parts are of course (like most other bike manufacturers, including BF) made wherever SRAM, Shimano etc build them.
And paired-spoke wheels aren't fragile. Not on the road, anyway. Many pro riders past and present use them.
jur
06-30-08, 05:30 PM
^ +1
I have never ridden a Strida and I, too, dissed it when I first got to know about it. But the many positive reports from forumers here have convinced me that it does have significant merit - they can't all be wrong. It is acknowledged not to be too suitable for hilly terrain and has an upright riding position; as such it is suitable for specific purposes. I wouldn't buy one for the above reasons - at least not at this stage in my life. But when I'm old and grey who knows? Horses for courses. It is not suitable to be compared to a tikit.
I have never ridden a Strida and I, too, dissed it when I first got to know about it. But the many positive reports from forumers here have convinced me that it does have significant merit - they can't all be wrong. It is acknowledged not to be too suitable for hilly terrain and has an upright riding position; as such it is suitable for specific purposes. I wouldn't buy one for the above reasons - at least not at this stage in my life. But when I'm old and grey who knows? Horses for courses. It is not suitable to be compared to a tikit.
feijai
07-01-08, 01:17 PM
If we're being pedantic, and we are a little in this thread, Dahon's site actually lists plants in Taiwan, Macau, Czech Republic and China. That's 'primary facilities' in four places
Don't kid yourself. Dahon's China plant is (or was) larger than all its other facilities combined. (http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-miscellaneous/4132247-1.html) I think that falls pretty strongly in the definition of "primary facility".
And paired-spoke wheels aren't fragile. Not on the road, anyway. Many pro riders past and present use them.
Your second sentence isn't support for your first sentence: quite to the contrary. Pro riders don't use fewer spokes because they're durable. They use them because of their effect on efficiency. However, to keep the wheel just as durable with fewer spokes, you have to use a heavier rim (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html). The SL isn't doing this. So yes, it's fragile, in the same way as my wife's 7.5FX (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/bike_path/fx/75fx/). Break one spoke and your wheel will not be happy. I can break several spokes on my mountain bike and not even notice.
Don't kid yourself. Dahon's China plant is (or was) larger than all its other facilities combined. (http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-miscellaneous/4132247-1.html) I think that falls pretty strongly in the definition of "primary facility".
And paired-spoke wheels aren't fragile. Not on the road, anyway. Many pro riders past and present use them.
Your second sentence isn't support for your first sentence: quite to the contrary. Pro riders don't use fewer spokes because they're durable. They use them because of their effect on efficiency. However, to keep the wheel just as durable with fewer spokes, you have to use a heavier rim (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html). The SL isn't doing this. So yes, it's fragile, in the same way as my wife's 7.5FX (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/bike_path/fx/75fx/). Break one spoke and your wheel will not be happy. I can break several spokes on my mountain bike and not even notice.
feijai
07-01-08, 01:31 PM
Tikit has a 90Kg (200Lbs) weight limit, Strida has a larger105Kg (230lbs) weight limit.
The size-Large Tikit's weight limit is 220 pounds, and Bike Friday can build Tikits to support significantly more weight still. I am 207 pounds and my Bike Friday has approved my weight for my size-Medium "FrankenTikit".
Best about Tikit..
1. Gears (but that will change soon)
2. Space for longer wheel base and more conventional geometry... that's inherent and will not change
3. A professional standard bike racer on the development and promotion team (Rob English .. this guy can ride [any] bike fast !!)
Really, that's all you could think of? Here'd be my primary list of Strida Downsides:
One gear, at 56 inches.
Bizarre riding position, either very upright and short, or very laid-back, almost like a crank-forward. As an above-average height rider I found it to be uncomfortable and inefficient.
Few adjustment options or standard parts.
Dangerously tippy structural design, requiring brake warning labels.
Harsh ride and odd handling.
Folds to almost four feet long.
Don't get me wrong. The Strida is an awesomely brilliant piece of engineering design. I first saw it in London, in front of the British Museum, and literally stopped the rider to ask him what kind of bike it was. But the Strida is very a special purpose bike. I do not think it can be realistically used as a "regular bike" replacement: instead, it'd work best for shorter riders going small distances at a casual pace. There's probably quite a lot of those people. But I am not one of them.
The size-Large Tikit's weight limit is 220 pounds, and Bike Friday can build Tikits to support significantly more weight still. I am 207 pounds and my Bike Friday has approved my weight for my size-Medium "FrankenTikit".
Best about Tikit..
1. Gears (but that will change soon)
2. Space for longer wheel base and more conventional geometry... that's inherent and will not change
3. A professional standard bike racer on the development and promotion team (Rob English .. this guy can ride [any] bike fast !!)
Really, that's all you could think of? Here'd be my primary list of Strida Downsides:
One gear, at 56 inches.
Bizarre riding position, either very upright and short, or very laid-back, almost like a crank-forward. As an above-average height rider I found it to be uncomfortable and inefficient.
Few adjustment options or standard parts.
Dangerously tippy structural design, requiring brake warning labels.
Harsh ride and odd handling.
Folds to almost four feet long.
Don't get me wrong. The Strida is an awesomely brilliant piece of engineering design. I first saw it in London, in front of the British Museum, and literally stopped the rider to ask him what kind of bike it was. But the Strida is very a special purpose bike. I do not think it can be realistically used as a "regular bike" replacement: instead, it'd work best for shorter riders going small distances at a casual pace. There's probably quite a lot of those people. But I am not one of them.
alhedges
07-01-08, 03:03 PM
Tikit vs Strida
Strida costs approx 800 usd and Tikit starts at approx 1740 usd - so they are in different markets.
I'm not sure where you're posting from, but in the US Tikits start at $999.
Strida costs approx 800 usd and Tikit starts at approx 1740 usd - so they are in different markets.
I'm not sure where you're posting from, but in the US Tikits start at $999.
StuAff
07-01-08, 03:42 PM
Don't kid yourself. Dahon's China plant is (or was) larger than all its other facilities combined. (http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-miscellaneous/4132247-1.html) I think that falls pretty strongly in the definition of "primary facility".
Your second sentence isn't support for your first sentence: quite to the contrary. Pro riders don't use fewer spokes because they're durable. They use them because of their effect on efficiency. However, to keep the wheel just as durable with fewer spokes, you have to use a heavier rim (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html). The SL isn't doing this. So yes, it's fragile, in the same way as my wife's 7.5FX (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/bike_path/fx/75fx/). Break one spoke and your wheel will not be happy. I can break several spokes on my mountain bike and not even notice.
Hmmm....
First of all, neither you or I know where Dahon make which model bikes for which market, except by looking on the ones we can find in stores, friends' own, etc. My XP was made in Taiwan. Where it was made is one thing, corporate governance and social responsibility are quite another. There are sweat shops and slavery all over the world.
Secondly, I made a perfectly reasonable point on the wheels. My bike (and every other bike with similar wheels) is intended for road use only. And there are plenty of very exacting tests of a bike on roads, right? Or do ProTour events and bad roads the world over not count? I'm not doubting Sheldon's wisdom. But he doesn't mention paired-spokes in that article.... On the Harris Cyclery site, Damon Rinard actually tested lateral stiffness of paired spoke wheels. To quote "I compared deflection measured when the wheel was loaded at pairs of spokes to deflection measured when the wheel was loaded between pairs of spokes. So far I have measured five wheels built with some kind of paired spoking. There is no significant difference in the flexibility of these wheels anywhere around the rim, either at spoke pairs or between them.". The Rolfs had maximum 1.5% increase in flex between spokes. And a whole 2.26 mm average lateral deflection. Damon rated rim weight as only third in relative contribution to wheel stiffness. And also on the HC site, this article http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm, which states that "There is no doubt that the difference in ride quality between a 20000 lb/in wheel and a 13000 lb/in one is immediately apparent to a 70 kg rider. Lighter guys should avoid stiff wheels". That'll be me.
There are plenty of very happy paired-spoke wheel owners out there, quite a few hang around here.
Break several spokes and any wheel will be compromised....I've broken two MTB wheels, anyway. On road....
Your second sentence isn't support for your first sentence: quite to the contrary. Pro riders don't use fewer spokes because they're durable. They use them because of their effect on efficiency. However, to keep the wheel just as durable with fewer spokes, you have to use a heavier rim (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html). The SL isn't doing this. So yes, it's fragile, in the same way as my wife's 7.5FX (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/bike_path/fx/75fx/). Break one spoke and your wheel will not be happy. I can break several spokes on my mountain bike and not even notice.
Hmmm....
First of all, neither you or I know where Dahon make which model bikes for which market, except by looking on the ones we can find in stores, friends' own, etc. My XP was made in Taiwan. Where it was made is one thing, corporate governance and social responsibility are quite another. There are sweat shops and slavery all over the world.
Secondly, I made a perfectly reasonable point on the wheels. My bike (and every other bike with similar wheels) is intended for road use only. And there are plenty of very exacting tests of a bike on roads, right? Or do ProTour events and bad roads the world over not count? I'm not doubting Sheldon's wisdom. But he doesn't mention paired-spokes in that article.... On the Harris Cyclery site, Damon Rinard actually tested lateral stiffness of paired spoke wheels. To quote "I compared deflection measured when the wheel was loaded at pairs of spokes to deflection measured when the wheel was loaded between pairs of spokes. So far I have measured five wheels built with some kind of paired spoking. There is no significant difference in the flexibility of these wheels anywhere around the rim, either at spoke pairs or between them.". The Rolfs had maximum 1.5% increase in flex between spokes. And a whole 2.26 mm average lateral deflection. Damon rated rim weight as only third in relative contribution to wheel stiffness. And also on the HC site, this article http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm, which states that "There is no doubt that the difference in ride quality between a 20000 lb/in wheel and a 13000 lb/in one is immediately apparent to a 70 kg rider. Lighter guys should avoid stiff wheels". That'll be me.
There are plenty of very happy paired-spoke wheel owners out there, quite a few hang around here.
Break several spokes and any wheel will be compromised....I've broken two MTB wheels, anyway. On road....
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