Vehicular Cycling (VC) - vehicular cycling on the injured reserve list

Sharing a lane is one thing... However, try driving slow on a freeway and see how well that works. That would be akin to "taking a lane" on a 50MPH arterial. Sure it can be technically done, but the motorist friction will be plenty.

No, it's not the same at all. Freeways, given their lack of intersections and traffic lights, aren't nearly as likely to have significant gaps in between groups of traffic as arterials almost always do (I know of a few exceptions but they are only exceptions at certain times of the day and only along certains stretches, and yes, I have biked those stretches at those times of day and am here to talk about it :)).

I often "take the lane" on 45-50mph arterials and any friction that occurs usually lasts for less than 30 seconds. Going the same speed on a freeway would likely results in continuous friction due to a lack of gaps and thus much more delay for motorists who have to change lanes to pass as they wait for other traffic to clear.

And again, motorist friction is certainly no reason to start riding against traffic (i.e. behaving non-vehicularly). If the friction really made it that bad for you, there's nothing stopping you from pulling over and letting the packs pass then remounting and continuing on (much like one would do driving a slow moving vehicle when climbing a mountain where the road has turnouts provided).

well, I've been experiencing differences in techniques while riding on the injured reserve list. This speed dependent issue is nothing new to me, I've been a cyclotourist since the 1980's so am quite familiar about riding at slower speeds and traffic static/traffic dynamic. Particularly riding bigger city centers and towns. plus being a cyclocommuter all thru college ( delivered papers by bike most of grade school too) and over 15 years big city daily riding & humping groceries home with a 50 pound paperboy special.

perhaps I have been more attuned to the phenomenom while being physically 'disabled' from injury recovery.

traffic friction increases as speed differential increases, and speed differential increases the difficulty of some vehicular traffic positioning. so much so that narrow lanes and faster (35 + mph signed) roads are going to leave a lot of potential riders out of the pool. and thats a pity. increases sidewalk cycling I'd suspect.

No, it's not the same at all. Freeways, given their lack of intersections and traffic lights, aren't nearly as likely to have significant gaps in between groups of traffic as arterials almost always do (I know of a few exceptions but they are only exceptions at certain times of the day and only along certains stretches, and yes, I have biked those stretches at those times of day and am here to talk about it :)).

I often "take the lane" on 45-50mph arterials and any friction that occurs usually lasts for less than 30 seconds. Going the same speed on a freeway would likely results in continuous friction due to a lack of gaps and thus much more delay for motorists who have to change lanes to pass as they wait for other traffic to clear.

And again, motorist friction is certainly no reason to start riding against traffic (i.e. behaving non-vehicularly). If the friction really made it that bad for you, there's nothing stopping you from pulling over and letting the packs pass then remounting and continuing on (much like one would do driving a slow moving vehicle when climbing a mountain where the road has turnouts provided).

I don't know how we got off on the wrong way thing... but I would never condone that.

As far as driver friction... there is also nothing keeping the motorists from pulling over to the other lane to avoid said friction... however it just doesn't seem to be an option in their minds... honking and yelling seem to be approach of many.

Oh and rush hour here, during my commute time, there are no "gaps" on arterial roads. Period The arterial roads look just like the freeways.

well, I've been experiencing differences in techniques while riding on the injured reserve list. This speed dependent issue is nothing new to me, I've been a cyclotourist since the 1980's so am quite familiar about riding at slower speeds and traffic static/traffic dynamic. Particularly riding bigger city centers and towns. plus being a cyclocommuter all thru college ( delivered papers by bike most of grade school too) and over 15 years big city daily riding & humping groceries home with a 50 pound paperboy special.

perhaps I have been more attuned to the phenomenom while being physically 'disabled' from injury recovery.

traffic friction increases as speed differential increases, and speed differential increases the difficulty of some vehicular traffic positioning. so much so that narrow lanes and faster (35 + mph signed) roads are going to leave a lot of potential riders out of the pool. and thats a pity. increases sidewalk cycling I'd suspect.

I tend to agree... and regularly see the phenomena when using different bikes on the same routes... my drop bar "racing bike" is far lighter and faster then my daily commuter with panniers, fenders and full lighting... As that speed differential increases, so then does the friction factor.

BTW as a sidenote, I have been "grounded" for several months now due to bone spurs in my foot... going to surgery tomorrow... so I know how it feels to be "on injured reserve." Right now I am limited to short easy rides (but all the swimming I want... :D ) Hopefully, after the surgery, and several weeks to recover, I'll be back on my trusty steel steeds. ;)

I don't know how we got off on the wrong way thing... but I would never condone that.

I brought up the wrong way thing because the way you talk about the problem, it sounds as though you have something better than cycling vehicularly. I threw out wrong way cycling as a possible option but apparently that's not what you are suggesting. What exactly are you suggesting other than vehicular cycling? Or is the only other option in your mind no-cycling?

As far as driver friction... there is also nothing keeping the motorists from pulling over to the other lane to avoid said friction... however it just doesn't seem to be an option in their minds... honking and yelling seem to be approach of many.

Well, it sure would be nice if stupid left Earth but it's probably never going to happen. In my experience though, the numbers who complain about having to change lanes VASTLY outnumber those who do. I just can't bring myself to complain much about such a small minority. You on the other hand...

Oh and rush hour here, during my commute time, there are no "gaps" on arterial roads. Period The arterial roads look just like the freeways.

Do your arterials have any stop lights? Is there that much turning traffic or is the light timed so shortly that there are no gaps? What are the daily vehicle counts on these roads that allow for this?

I brought up the wrong way thing because the way you talk about the problem, it sounds as though you have something better than cycling vehicularly. I threw out wrong way cycling as a possible option but apparently that's not what you are suggesting. What exactly are you suggesting other than vehicular cycling? Or is the only other option in your mind no-cycling?

No, the real option in my mind is traffic calming so that vehicular cycling is not limited to only the fittest most experienced cyclists.

But just for the sake of discussion... lets look at other forms of traffic beyond "vehicular." Vehicular Cycling is usually defined as following the rules of the road and acting like a vehicle driver. It works well when there is cooperation from other drivers... but that cooperation is needed. What other forms might work without cooperation? Well take a look at nature... it is not as if the smaller animals have laws protecting them... smaller animals depend on staying out of the way. The mouse avoids the path of the lion; the monkey takes to the trees. The same thing occurs in the ocean... small fish stay out of the way of big fish. Look at underdeveloped countries, and their traffic patterns... Vietnam or China for instance... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzh94TEf4w0

Watch the pedestrian in the lower right... he doesn't expect traffic to stop for him... he moves fluidly to avoid the vehicles and traffic, while still working to reach his goal. The scooter riders do not take the lane in front of the larger vehicles, they go to the sides and behind.

Is it possible that our version of "Vehicular Cycling" is too dependent on laws for definition and application... and that cyclists should seek to stay out of the way instead? (remember, this is for the sake of discussion... )

Of course traffic systems can be built to enable this... just as minor animal paths may be in a different parts of the jungle from major animal paths. (ever look at the floor of a forest for all the various animal paths) Places like Finland for instance create "minor paths" for cyclists, different from the "major paths" of motorists. Is this not a more "organic" system? (organic as in "more in line with nature")



Well, it sure would be nice if stupid left Earth but it's probably never going to happen. In my experience though, the numbers who complain about having to change lanes VASTLY outnumber those who do. I just can't bring myself to complain much about such a small minority. You on the other hand...
Right, blame the messenger. Look, the fact is I can and do go about anywhere I want on bike... but I also observe that our current system is not exactly "drawing crowds" to use it... no matter how comfortable the weather, or lack of hills, or other "marginal excuses" that can be eliminated. Yet in some other countries, there are large crowds using cycling regularly... well over the tiny 1% or so of the US.


Do your arterials have any stop lights? Is there that much turning traffic or is the light timed so shortly that there are no gaps? What are the daily vehicle counts on these roads that allow for this?

Oh sure... but the traffic is fast and heavy at typical travel times... and unless one has several years cycling experience and the legs to pull it off, you are not likely to deal well with that sort of traffic... and that is my point... your grandma, or your little sister may not be able to handle that surface street traffic... so what are the chances of getting those folks out there? Or others like them? And this sort of traffic is prevalent in many large cities.

The average person is not likely to want to take on near freeway like road conditions present in many large US cities... they ARE more likely to bike under these conditions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYajXN4pPHI

BTW notice the lack of lycra, and the near lack of helmets?

Sure, there aren't any Lance wannabees out there pushing for their own personal best times... but then I don't see a lot of NASCAR wannabees either.

Our present system in the US is optimized for motorists in cars... and no matter how "vehicularly" you ride, that current system does you no favors.

I find the adjustment is mainly with the cyclist. Every cyclist is used to a normal speed. Change that and what one is used to changes - but after a while one adapts to a new speed and speed differentials. That means one needs to learn and adjust to when one signals, when one initiates turns, when one looks back all changes. It can take a few weeks to adapt.

The same effect happens if one drives a motor vehicle significantly slower than ones norm. At first it seems harder, but after time and learning how to best fit in flow it feels right and speeding feels wrong.

To the faster drivers encountering you, they don't note much difference between a 10mph vs. 20mph cyclist. The cyclist can let themselves feel it though.

Al

I find the adjustment is mainly with the cyclist. Every cyclist is used to a normal speed. Change that and what one is used to changes - but after a while one adapts to a new speed and speed differentials. That means one needs to learn and adjust to when one signals, when one initiates turns, when one looks back all changes. It can take a few weeks to adapt.

The same effect happens if one drives a motor vehicle significantly slower than ones norm. At first it seems harder, but after time and learning how to best fit in flow it feels right and speeding feels wrong.

To the faster drivers encountering you, they don't note much difference between a 10mph vs. 20mph cyclist. The cyclist can let themselves feel it though.

Al

To a motorist moving at 30MPH, the difference between a cyclist moving at 10MPH and 20MPH is huge; to a motorist moving at 50MPH, either cyclist is slow.

To a motorist moving at 30MPH, the difference between a cyclist moving at 10MPH and 20MPH is huge; to a motorist moving at 50MPH, either cyclist is slow.

I had discounted lower speed such as 30mph traveled roads as very comfortable for a cyclist at any speed to travel on. I assumed based on the OP the main issue discussed/raised was "Taking the lane, being traffic, and making lefts on high speed roads IS different when the bicyclists' speed is 7-10 MPH." - that is the difference in cycling at 10mph or 20mph on 45mph+ roads.

Al

I had discounted lower speed such as 30mph traveled roads as very comfortable for a cyclist at any speed to travel on. I assumed based on the OP the main issue discussed/raised was "Taking the lane, being traffic, and making lefts on high speed roads IS different when the bicyclists' speed is 7-10 MPH." - that is the difference in cycling at 10mph or 20mph on 45mph+ roads.

Al

The slower you go the more difficult it is to negotiate and merge with faster traffic... that is what I interpreted.

Perhaps Bek can come back and refresh his thoughts here.

yes, motorists behind a cyclist doing 22 in a 25 have much less issue than when the cyclist is doing 10 in a 25.

greater speed differentials increase traffic friction on all roads no matter how low the speed limit.

Some related, but separate questions for joejack to ponder....and no need to answer them here, just some issues to ruminate on....

Joejack, you claim the lane on high speed arterials. No problem. Me too. however, asking all cyclists to do this is unrealistic. MOST cyclists will either hug the curb or choose another route.

1) What % of fellow cyclists you see also ride claiming the lanes of high speed arterials?

2) How many do you think want to do that?

3) would your Grandmother want to? Should she be required to?

4) Should bicyclists be forced to deal with roads designed for motorists first and foremost, or should bicyclists expect a little more consideration from their municipalities? Keep in mind that cities that consider bicyclists have modal shares approaching 30-60 percent in their downtown cores, and cities that do not have ridership at a percent or less.

which system do you think works better to accomodate bicyclists of all speeds and abilities?

yes, motorists behind a cyclist doing 22 in a 25 have much less issue than when the cyclist is doing 10 in a 25.

Neither motorist has any issue unless they have self imposed personal issues.

Actually it is easier to pass a 10mph cyclist than a 22mph one as less overtaking distance is needed as one does not need to break the law and speed to pass a 10mph cyclist quickly.

Al

al, your impression that neither motorist should have any issue is sugarcoated idealization and not reality.

you do 10mph on a 25mph signed street for any distance, you're going to be approached by a motorist having issues with your speed.... if you're doing close to the speed limit, motorists are less irritated by the bicyclist because their speed more closely matches theirs. additionally, moving into a lane of traffic is much easier when the cyclist is moving close to the traffic streams' speed.

why are these such difficult concepts to grasp? this plays out in reality everyday on the roads of america, al.

slow riders encounter greater traffic friction and greater difficulty performing vehicular cycling manuvers like left turns and claiming the lane for hazards, etc.

greater speed differential increasing traffic friction is a road maxim.

al, your impression that neither motorist should have any issue is sugarcoated idealization and not reality.

you do 10mph on a 25mph signed street for any distance, you're going to be approached by a motorist having issues with your speed.... if you're doing close to the speed limit, motorists are less irritated by the bicyclist because their speed more closely matches theirs. additionally, moving into a lane of traffic is much easier when the cyclist is moving close to the traffic streams' speed.

why are these such difficult concepts to grasp? this plays out in reality everyday on the roads of america, al.

slow riders encounter greater traffic friction and greater difficulty performing vehicular cycling manuvers like left turns and claiming the lane for hazards, etc.

greater speed differential increasing traffic friction is a road maxim.

It sure does play out everyday and that is what I base my observations on.

If a motorist has an issue and I am following the rules of the road, it is their problem, not mine.

Again it is much easier to pass a much slower moving vehicle than one near the speed you wish to go. Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Again negotiations with 50mph vehicle drivers are negotiations whether cyclist is traveling at 10mph or 20mph, That 10mph difference is not even noticed by the 50mph driver. In both cases the driver needs to slow to cyclist speed to invite a merge.

Al

...and what about negotiations with streams of 30mph traffic, al?

traffic friction increases as speed differential increases, al.

"it's much easier to pass..." ONLY if the motorist CAN pass the cyclist, not always possible on congested or narrow roads, al..... so motorists can stack up behind a rider moving 10mph, duh. and on a road marked 25, a cyclist moving 10 is much greater traffic friction than a rider moving 22.

...and what about negotiations with streams of 30mph traffic, al?

What about it?

Going (far) back to the original post, I quite agree that both speed and speed differentials make major differences in both appropriate riding styles and best choices for infrastructure design.

Our most effective cycling advocacy, I think, requires an understanding of both riding population diversity and local conditions.

...al. negotiation with slow speed streams of traffic, 25-30mph.

is there a difference for cyclists moving 10mph versus 22mph? when traffic is closing at double the speed, it's more difficult to execute a lane grab.

I notice a glaring difference in traffic negotiation, lane claiming abilities and traffic friction when I ride 10 on slow speed roads versus 22. regardless, just because a rider is moving 10 is no guarantee it is easier to pass them, only when it's possible to do so.

this is cycling 101, or maybe 102, al. not complex, basic physics and traffic dynamics for bicyclists.

...al. negotiation with slow speed streams of traffic, 25-30mph.

is there a difference for cyclists moving 10 versus 22?

Well whether your traveling at 10 or 22 and traffic is 25-30, then you need to negotiate a merge, but one is not harder than the other in my experience.

You should not feel any different asking a motorist to slow to 10 vs 22, but it seems you do.

What I notice when traveling at 10mph is that motorist pass me sooner and quicker instead of hangin on my tail waiting for sufficient distance to pass safely. I notice they are just as responsive to hand signals and head turns.

The biggest difference when I travel at 10mph is that I will be more likely to be right hooked or have someone pull out in front of me, so I find that looking purposeful and staying away from the curb at intersections to be even more important.

Al

al, you think speed differential is irrelevant or it affects you differently, i wonder if you staying away from the curb at intersections while you do 10 mph is likely to increase traffic friction and motorist irritation or decrease it?


the reality of physics surrounding closing speeds coupled with the responses of experienced cyclists like genec mesh with my experiences that all indicate greater speed differentials increases traffic friction.

Greater speed differentials increases the difficulty of executing vehicular cycling moves like vehicular lefts and claims to the lane to negotiate hazards.

what are you not in agreeement with? you claim cyclist speed is irrelevant?

I call bull, al- you yourself have posted videos about your difficulty negotiating lane claim for left turns with higher speed traffic, found it valid enough to post a thread and youtube video about it....

...postulating there is no difference between cyclists moving 10 mph versus 22mph negotiating merges with traffic moving 25-30 is speculative, delusional poppycock about traffic cycling...

al, you think speed differential is irrelevant or it affects you differently, i wonder if you staying away from the curb at intersections while you do 10 mph is likely to increase traffic friction and motorist irritation or decrease it?

common sense and the responses of experienced cyclists like genec couple with my experiences show greater speed differentials increases traffic friction. greater speed differentials increases the difficulty of executing vehicular cycling moves like vehicular lefts and claims to the lane to negotiate hazards.

what are you not in agreeement with? you claim cyclist speed is irrelevant?

I call bull, al- you yourself have posted videos about your difficulty negotiating lefts with higher speed traffic, found it valid enough to post a thread and youtube video about it....

My point is that while speed differential matters (as it does for all traffic), there is not a significant difference between a 10 vs. a 20mph cyclist in fast traffic (which was what you brought up in your OP). What matters far more is the cyclists experience at ones normal cycling speed. Change that and one needs to re-adjust. The signaling and timings for signaling are different for a 10mph cyclist vs. a 20mph on. Take a normal 20mph cyclist put them at 10mph and they will find it hard. Given them a month and it will be normal. Take a normal 10mph cyclist put them at 20mph and they will find it hard. Given them a month and it will be normal.

You suddenly found yourself much slower and need to re-learn what and when works best for the new speed - probably signalling earlier and, more difficultly, adjusting to the new timings from when you see a motorist, when to ask to merge and when to look for slowing and when you can safety merge in front of them. Instead you seem to be focused on having to slow a motorist to 10 instead of 20. That part is irrelevant - you are asking them to slow either way and the final resulting delay to them will be minor either way.

Just like your comment about thinking about how motorists feel about me being away from curb at 10mph. It don't matter what they feel. What matters is my safety. Thinking about how they feel instead of thinking about my safety will muddle the situation and get me in trouble.

So yes again differential matters, but not for the reasons you and genec state - which seem to be far to focused on imagining how motorists feel about slower cyclists than if it is safe and effective to cycle in traffic at a wide range of speeds and speed differentials.

(No I have not posted video about difficulty of merges - only once about the how to be better seen signalling at night for more effective negotiation of merges.)

Al

...postulating there is no difference between cyclists moving 10 mph versus 22mph negotiating merges with traffic moving 25-30 is speculative, delusional poppycock about traffic cycling...

Of course there is a difference. The difference is in execution of the negotiation by the cyclist.
What I did say is that one is not harder than the other. In both cases one needs to ask a faster driver to slow and I find to get the same response from drivers independent of my speed.

Al

OF COURSE there is a difference.

claims there is no difference in difficulty in execution of some moves because of speed differentials? not a firm grasp on reality, dude.

greater speed differential increases traffic friction and makes some vehicular manuvers like lane claims andf vehicular lefts more difficult.

even the puffed up tome of vc qualitates this with the endorsements of pedestrian left turns or hugging the edges of narrow lanes while setting up for left turns.

So yes again differential matters, but not for the reasons you and genec state - which seem to be far to focused on imagining how motorists feel about slower cyclists than if it is safe and effective to cycle in traffic at a wide range of speeds and speed differentials.


Al

Travel at a slow enough speed and motorists will treat you like a pedestrian... and may insist that you ride on the sidewalk. Granted this is the motorists' problem, but they will try to make it your problem by conveying their message to you in loud and rude ways. You can of course ignore them, but then you have just closed off your communication.

On the other hand, if motor traffic is moving fast enough, again you appear to be a pedestrian, and again fall into that same issue of motorists not wanting to deal with you as a fellow user of the road.

At a speed close to that of motor traffic (no matter how fast or slow) you are on a peer level with motorists and communication is easy to establish as is the act of merging.

Your point of going from being a fast cyclist to a slow cyclist is well taken, but I don't think the adjustment is all that difficult for an experienced cyclist... for instance I communicate with motorists driving at speeds of ~20MPH in local neighborhoods, and motorists driving at speeds of ~70MPH on areas of my commute. I automatically change my signal procedures for the speed differences... I signal a lot longer and sooner when the traffic is moving at a much faster speed than I am. The cooperation of motorists changes too... at slower traffic speeds motorists easily merge with me, and may even anticipate my needs based on my position and body language (looking back), while at much greater traffic speeds I find that several motorists may pass me before one is willing to slow way down to my speed.

Travel at a slow enough speed and motorists will treat you like a pedestrian... and may insist that you ride on the sidewalk. Granted this is the motorists' problem, but they will try to make it your problem by conveying their message to you in loud and rude ways. You can of course ignore them, but then you have just closed off your communication.

On the other hand, if motor traffic is moving fast enough, again you appear to be a pedestrian, and again fall into that same issue of motorists not wanting to deal with you as a fellow user of the road.

At a speed close to that of motor traffic (no matter how fast or slow) you are on a peer level with motorists and communication is easy to establish as is the act of merging.

Your point of going from being a fast cyclist to a slow cyclist is well taken, but I don't think the adjustment is all that difficult for an experienced cyclist... for instance I communicate with motorists driving at speeds of ~20MPH in local neighborhoods, and motorists driving at speeds of ~70MPH on areas of my commute. I automatically change my signal procedures for the speed differences... I signal a lot longer and sooner when the traffic is moving at a much faster speed than I am. The cooperation of motorists changes too... at slower traffic speeds motorists easily merge with me, and may even anticipate my needs based on my position and body language (looking back), while at much greater traffic speeds I find that several motorists may pass me before one is willing to slow way down to my speed.

There are lots of 10-15mph cyclists on 25-30mph roads locally and they are accepted on the roads as cyclist with no issue. The place there is less acceptance of cyclists is on 45mph+ arterials and there the difference between 10 and 20 is not a factor - all cyclists are slow then.

The adjustment period I refer to is for the change in the cyclist normal speed, not adjustment to motorist speed. I speak of this as I spend the last two weeks focusing on traveling at 10-12mph and found all the adjustment came from within. At first I was not comfortable merging at 10mph on a 45mph road, but learned that it really is the same as when I travel at 20-25mph. Motorist were just as likely to see me and react my slowing or changing lanes.

I did find riding at 10mph on 25mph road to be almost better as I was not in 'speed completion' with motorists. They came up behind me, I moved right, they passed - all was done quickly with no fuss. When I travel at 25mph on 25mph road the time of interaction is much longer as takes longer for motorist to pass me as they need more space and so do I to move right. I found no difference in merging, I stick arm out and 1-3 motorists later one slowed to let me in. They then followed me at 10mph until my turn or until I could safely merge back right.

One trap that it easy to fall into at 10mph is merging/negotiating too late - when going slower traffic approaches quicker so being in lane controlling and visible position sooner (relative to when traveling at 25mph) was more important I have found. It's counter intuitive I suppose.

Al

There are lots of 10-15mph cyclists on 25-30mph roads locally and they are accepted on the roads as cyclist with no issue. The place there is less acceptance of cyclists is on 45mph+ arterials and there the difference between 10 and 20 is not a factor - all cyclists are slow then.

The adjustment period I refer to is for the change in the cyclist normal speed, not adjustment to motorist speed. I speak of this as I spend the last two weeks focusing on traveling at 10-12mph and found all the adjustment came from within. At first I was not comfortable merging at 10mph on a 45mph road, but learned that it really is the same as when I travel at 20-25mph. Motorist were just as likely to see me and react my slowing or changing lanes.

I did find riding at 10mph on 25mph road to be almost better as I was not in 'speed completion' with motorists. They came up behind me, I moved right, they passed - all was done quickly with no fuss. When I travel at 25mph on 25mph road the time of interaction is much longer as takes longer for motorist to pass me as they need more space and so do I to move right. I found no difference in merging, I stick arm out and 1-3 motorists later one slowed to let me in. They then followed me at 10mph until my turn or until I could safely merge back right.

One trap that it easy to fall into at 10mph is merging/negotiating too late - when going slower traffic approaches quicker so being in lane controlling and visible position sooner (relative to when traveling at 25mph) was more important I have found. It's counter intuitive I suppose.

Al

I find somewhat nearly the opposite reactions... as a much slower loaded tourist, I found that much faster traffic tended to ignore my signals, and thus to merge I would need to signal for a much longer time. But when I am nearly at the same speed as other traffic, a quick head turn may be just enough to for someone to slow down for me to merge.

Since I ride different bikes and carry widely different loads, I find it easy for me to shift my thinking for my speed... and the relative speed of traffic around me... I suspect that is an issue of experience though, and thus you may be right about other cyclists' perceptions of speed changing their perspective of expectations.

One thing I do readily notice when cycling quite fast is that motorists often under estimate my speed... and will pull out from a side street in spite of the fact that I am already upon them... or may try to right hook me, not realizing that I am "right there." I really don't have that problem so much when moving at the slower 10-12MPH of a loaded tourist.

I see your point about the "speed competition" issue, which is similar to what I was saying about being treated as a pedestrian when going slow relative to other traffic... there is also the issue of motorists feeling they must "get ahead of the cyclist" that may occur at higher speeds that doesn't tend to happen at near pedestrian speeds. But that really depends on the motorist... most simply treat you as a road using peer, and as I said, may even anticipate your moves.

I agree that on very fast roads (50MPH+ around here) your speed of either 10 or 20MPH doesn't mean a thing when the delta is over 30MPH... you appear like a "pedestrian," no matter what.

Perhaps the difference is based on what we are focusing on... you have mentioned the ease at which you are passed... at slower speeds... and I seem to be focusing on the ease at which I can merge... a decidedly different move in traffic, and one that takes more communication.

Perhaps the difference is based on what we are focusing on... you have mentioned the ease at which you are passed... at slower speeds... and I seem to be focusing on the ease at which I can merge... a decidedly different move in traffic, and one that takes more communication.
Perhaps. But for me I've never had any issue merging or for that matter any traffic situations on 25mph roads at any cycling speed. It is about as comfortable and easy a traffic situation as one ever needs to deal with - which is why I am more focused on the ease of merging in 45mph traffic at which point 10 or 20 really does not make much difference.

I also am concerned by the acceptance (not specific of any posters here) that 10mph cyclists are perhaps more of an annoyance to drivers than faster ones. That is not cyclist advocacy. A cyclist has the full right to use the road and follow the rules of the road no matter what speed they are traveling. Feelings of inferiority should not go up as one travels slower. A 10mph cyclist should feel and is just as legitimate as a 25mph one.

Al

One thing I do readily notice when cycling quite fast is that motorists often under estimate my speed... and will pull out from a side street in spite of the fact that I am already upon them... or may try to right hook me, not realizing that I am "right there." I really don't have that problem so much when moving at the slower 10-12MPH of a loaded tourist.

I find this difference most interesting as I have strongly the exact opposite. I read about left hooks and right hooks and getting cut of on BF all the time and never as a 20-25mph cyclist experience to the degree I read about. Then when I cruise around at 10mph and I get such behavior at nearly every intersection. The difference is night and day. Clearly the motorist seeing me approach can tell I am traveling quite slow (they look, I am there, they look and I still am not much closer, so they go) and take advantage of that and cut me off with not much distance to spare. After noting this behavior I thought, well that explains why so many others complain of this behavior, they must be traveling much slower.

I am not doubting your opposite experience, I just find it interesting.

Al

...seems you've noticed differences in how you're treated when you ride slower as well, al :rolleyes:

Perhaps. But for me I've never had any issue merging or for that matter any traffic situations on 25mph roads at any cycling speed. It is about as comfortable and easy a traffic situation as one ever needs to deal with - which is why I am more focused on the ease of merging in 45mph traffic at which point 10 or 20 really does not make much difference.

But the differences in speeds you are citing tend to reinforce exactly what I am saying. If you are moving at 10MPH and the motorist is moving at 25 MPH, there is only a 15MPH difference in speed... if you are moving at 20MPH and the motorist is moving at 45 MPH, there is a 25MPH difference in speed... The ability to communicate with a motorist flying past you at 25MPH is far more difficult... That 25MPH difference to a 45MPH motorist is as if you are a pedestrian to the 25MPH motorist... If you are moving at 10MPH, and the motorist is moving at 45, or in my case, 50MPH, they fly past you at 40MPH... you are a mere blur. How can there be communication at 40MPH, or even 30MPH? Now granted, if traffic is light, the motorist should see you well back and determine what to do, but in heavy traffic, a cyclist may not be visible to the motorist until said motorist is 3 cars back, which at 50MPH gives scant time for any decisions.


I also am concerned by the acceptance (not specific of any posters here) that 10mph cyclists are perhaps more of an annoyance to drivers than faster ones. That is not cyclist advocacy. A cyclist has the full right to use the road and follow the rules of the road no matter what speed they are traveling. Feelings of inferiority should not go up as one travels slower. A 10mph cyclist should feel and is just as legitimate as a 25mph one.

Al

Your latter statement is quite true... but is this an issue of slow cyclists or perhaps overly fast motorists? When the road one is traveling upon tends to feel more like a freeway, it is easy for a cyclist to feel out of place.

Hey I am all for reduced speed limits!

...seems you've noticed differences in how you're treated when you ride slower as well, al :rolleyes:

Sure, did I say otherwise. I also get treated differently when I motor slower.

One aspect of the left-hooks, pull outs I am not certain of is if the motorist pulling in front when I am slower are closer from a time perspective. Certainly much closer by distance, but since I am traveling slower, is that a problem? After all I never had to use the brakes when traveling at 10mph to slow for any motorist pulling in front of me.

Al