Heading east from Log Boom Park/Tracy Owen Station in Kenmore, the Burke-Gilman Trail crosses two streets - 61st Ave NE and 65th Ave NE. At 65th the cars have a stop sign but at 61th (the one closer to the park) they do not. It's a downhill curve from Bothell Way with limited visibility and I have seen cars go through that crossing without slowing down. While on the trail last Saturday I watched two men towing little kids on trail-a-bikes go right through that intersection without slowing down or apparently looking. When we caught up with the first rider I said to him "You know, the cars at that intersection back there don't have a stop sign." I shouldn't have expected anything different, but he said something like "Well, it's my life and my son's life." In other words: "Bug off and mind your own business." The reason that I said anything at all is that I only recently realized myself that the cars don't have to stop at that crossing, even though many do. I realize that uninvited criticism is generally not welcome so:
Should I have kept my mouth shut? How would you react to someone else telling you how to ride on the trail?

I think you were right to say something. If he gets hit then he would blame the cars for not looking and besides I bet the little kids mom would kick him in the nether regions if she knew he had not stopped to look out. I would have done the same thing. You don't sound like you yelled at him you were just letting him know a danger existed. Don't worry about it ya done the right thing.

Exactly. Your conscience is clear.

(Not even slowing down? :eek: Stringbreaker is right - Mom would make sure Dad never fathered any more children if she ever found out.)

what i usually do in that instance to defuse any "stop telling me how to live my life" aggro ness is to preface what i say with "i dunno if you knew, but..."

people will still get their underoos in a bunch, but at least then it's just me offering them some information, instead of implying they should act differently.

Should I have kept my mouth shut?
You weren't wrong to say anything, but par for the course in Seattle is a very MYOB attitude.

How would you react to someone else telling you how to ride on the trail?
I don't ride on the trail much, but so far this year I've only been reprimanded by 2 people. One guy on the B-G Trail who, no matter how much room you give him when you pass, if you don't say "On your left" he grumbles at you. The other guy was during one of my century rides. He's kitted out in his Team in Training coach's gear, and rolls up to me at a stop light after I had passed a number of his riders on a downhill. His statement was along the lines of "maybe you're new to group rides, but it's not safe to pass people on the right because no one is expecting you on that side." My response was less than cordial.



I admit to passing on the right. As a coach he should have been informing is white-knuckled brake riders to move off the double yellow line and get to the shoulder. He was unappreciative of my coaching advice.

I consider myself reasonably courteous when riding trails; we ride a tandem, so I am piloting a bike that is not so maneuverable and I have my stoker's safety to consider. Having said that, I will admit that I roll through stop signs after having slowed down and made sure that it's safe, I don't abide by the 15 mph speed limit on the trails, and only call "on your left" if I need the person to move over, if I'm not sure that they will stay on their side, or if I will have to pass so close that I think it will startle them. (Some people - especially kids - seem to have their heads attached to their arms, so that when you call out "on your left" they will look over their left shoulder and steer into your path.) I always say "thank you" to people as I pass them. I'm still amused by the man who informed me that the speed limit was 12 mph as we were passing him.

you were right to tell him about the danger. you shouldnt have to worry your exact wording because your intentions were good and the intent is to get your point across. the man might have been snippy back towards you but i bet he'll remember the incident and take precautions next time he crosses.

Should I have kept my mouth shut?
You weren't wrong to say anything, but par for the course in Seattle is a very MYOB attitude.
True, and that's also mostly the case here. I would have said something just because of the rugrat. If had been alone, I would not have cared so long as I was not affected.

you were right to tell him about the danger. you shouldnt have to worry your exact wording because your intentions were good and the intent is to get your point across. the man might have been snippy back towards you but i bet he'll remember the incident and take precautions next time he crosses.

I hope so.

Are you in Torrance, CA? I grew up there; graduated from North High.

I have seen what a person looks like when flying through the air and the profuse bleeding afterward when hit by an automobile. I don't worry about the response I get if I say something and if I get attitude I will say I meant no disrespect but only concern

not to be a downer, but i would have responded the same way - unless my (granted, idiotic) actions somehow affected you. when i used to ride with no helmet i'd get essentially yelled at by other riders, and i more or less told them to STFU - i mean, how does that affect them anyway?

i don't think you did anything wrong, but you probably didn't change his mind either. all you can do is live your life to its fullest potential - worrying about what everyone else is doing will just stress you out! especially over something this minor..

happy pedaling!

Unless the problem is grievous or affects your safety, I vote to keep your trap shut. Who appointed you the traffic cop for the trail? Way too many busy-bodies out there who should be paying more attention to their own riding than critiquing others.

- Mark

Who appointed you the traffic cop for the trail? Way too many busy-bodies out there ....

Whoa there. That's a little harsh. What I saw someone doing is something that I almost did once: proceed through that particular stop sign without realizing that the cross traffic didn't have an obligation to stop. I wouldn't have said anything if these guys hadn't been pulling little kids along behind them. (And I WAS paying attention to my own riding.)

Actually, I rarely encounter busy-bodies out there and this is probably the first time I have said anything to someone else about their riding when it didn't directly affect me. I usually find myself yelling at pedestrians who don't look both ways before walking onto the trail.

Whoa there. That's a little harsh. What I saw someone doing is something that I almost did once: proceed through that particular stop sign without realizing that the cross traffic didn't have an obligation to stop. I wouldn't have said anything if these guys hadn't been pulling little kids along behind them. (And I WAS paying attention to my own riding.)

Actually, I rarely encounter busy-bodies out there and this is probably the first time I have said anything to someone else about their riding when it didn't directly affect me. I usually find myself yelling at pedestrians who don't look both ways before walking onto the trail.

+1. By the way Mattm its hardly a minor thing to put your kid in danger like that. Maybe if the guys had been alone let em take a chance and be irresponsible but not with your kid. What happens say the bikers get hit and the dads live and the kids die? How you gonna explain that to a grieving mother and the rest of the family? I'm not trying to be a wise acre or anything but just looking at the other side of the coin.

Whoa there. That's a little harsh. What I saw someone doing is something that I almost did once: proceed through that particular stop sign without realizing that the cross traffic didn't have an obligation to stop. I wouldn't have said anything if these guys hadn't been pulling little kids along behind them. (And I WAS paying attention to my own riding.)

Yes, it's harsh, but bottom line is that you decided to put on your safety patrol cap simply because IN YOUR JUDGMENT someone wasn't exercising as much caution in an intersection as you thought appropriate. The fact you wouldn't have said anything unless kids were involved points out that it was a judgment call since you're using this as a justification for being more pro-active.

If ride the BG and if this is the intersection I think it is, then the riders were in a marked crosswalk, so regardless of whether there is a stop sign for the crossing traffic, they had the right of way. Further, the approaches to the intersection give both the car driver and the bicycle rider a fairly good view of each other with plenty of time to slow down or stop if a conflict is observed and to proceed without slowing down if no conflicts are observed. And how do you really know both riders didn't "apparently look" to see if there was a conflict? Did you have your eyes glued on them for the twenty or so seconds approaching the intersection? If so, then you make my point - you're spending way too much time critiquing other's riding.

I submit this was a judgment call at best and again, people should spend less time worrying about other's driving and concentrate on their own. Sorry, yes I'm being harsh.

- Mark

+1. By the way Mattm its hardly a minor thing to put your kid in danger like that. Maybe if the guys had been alone let em take a chance and be irresponsible but not with your kid. What happens say the bikers get hit and the dads live and the kids die? How you gonna explain that to a grieving mother and the rest of the family? I'm not trying to be a wise acre or anything but just looking at the other side of the coin.

Okay, so anything is justifiable if it is in the name of kids' safety? You see a car driver speeding 5 over with kids, so you flag 'em down and give them a safety lecture? You in a grocery and the kid isn't strapped into the cart, so another lecture is in order, right? You see a kid skateboarding without knee pads on, so time to get involved!

Obviously there needs to be some judgment involved with some guidelines: 1) are laws being broken? 2) is the situation such that there is immediate danger? 3) are others' safety being jeopardized? But you just can't say that anytime you see someone doing something THAT IN YOUR OPINION MIGHT BE DANGEROUS TO KIDS gives you the right to give the parents a safety lecture. Parents screw up, but in general, they're in the best position to judge the safety tradeoffs for their own kids. And people have inherently different standards on what they consider acceptable risk.

- Mark

in granite falls on saturday i saw a 10 year-old being aggressively yelled at, by an adult (his dad i assume) on the sidewalk. from their body-language, i could almost tell that had they been in private the boy would have 'got a whuppin'... and it seemed like it wasn't that far off even in public; the kid was practically flinching at each of the redneck's words.

so what was i to do? should i interrupt and explain that intimidation & aggression aren't going to solve any problems, and that the kid would be destined to end up doing the same thing to his kids, etc? what then would i do when the man's aggression was directed at me had i confronted him?

in the end i did nothing but watch and ride away - but in that situation i think there's more justification for stepping in and saying something.

running a stop sign on a bike trail? that should be your lowest priority if you're really out to make things better.

Okay, so anything is justifiable if it is in the name of kids' safety? You see a car driver speeding 5 over with kids, so you flag 'em down and give them a safety lecture? You in a grocery and the kid isn't strapped into the cart, so another lecture is in order, right? You see a kid skateboarding without knee pads on, so time to get involved!

Obviously there needs to be some judgment involved with some guidelines: 1) are laws being broken? 2) is the situation such that there is immediate danger? 3) are others' safety being jeopardized? But you just can't say that anytime you see someone doing something THAT IN YOUR OPINION MIGHT BE DANGEROUS TO KIDS gives you the right to give the parents a safety lecture. Parents screw up, but in general, they're in the best position to judge the safety tradeoffs for their own kids. And people have inherently different standards on what they consider acceptable risk.

- Mark

Not just anytime. I think the OP in this case was justified in saying something based on what he saw. Would I have said anything? Its possible but maybe not. Your points are well taken but read what you wrote in your third point. The second sentence. Thats what I mean its a judgement call. I'll shut up now and defer to other opinions.

Your points are well taken but read what you wrote in your third point. The second sentence. Thats what I mean its a judgement call.

When I said "others", I mean people outside the parent/rider and kid on the bike. The parent has responsibility for the safety of the kids, and it is a fairly universal principle that you don't intrude into a family situation and start interfering unless there is immediate and imminent danger. I wasn't there, but I don't think this situation comes near to qualifying. But you're right - it's a judgment call. Based on what I know about the intersection and the description of the incident, I don't think interfering was justified.

Let me point out something else. The OP took offense when I weighed in with my opinion on the situation that didn't agree with his AND HE WAS SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR OPINIONS. So how do you think that makes a parent feel when WITHOUT BEING ASKED a stranger comes up and starts telling them that they're being unsafe with their kids.

- Mark

Yes, it's harsh, but bottom line is that you decided to put on your safety patrol cap simply because IN YOUR JUDGMENT someone wasn't exercising as much caution in an intersection as you thought appropriate. The fact you wouldn't have said anything unless kids were involved points out that it was a judgment call since you're using this as a justification for being more pro-active.

Of course it was a judgement call. And they were no danger to me. And I didn't have to say anything. Although I don't actually have a safety patrol cap.

If ride the BG and if this is the intersection I think it is, then the riders were in a marked crosswalk, so regardless of whether there is a stop sign for the crossing traffic, they had the right of way. Further, the approaches to the intersection give both the car driver and the bicycle rider a fairly good view of each other with plenty of time to slow down or stop if a conflict is observed and to proceed without slowing down if no conflicts are observed. And how do you really know both riders didn't "apparently look" to see if there was a conflict? Did you have your eyes glued on them for the twenty or so seconds approaching the intersection? If so, then you make my point - you're spending way too much time critiquing other's riding.

You have made the point that you disagree, but you are on the verge of crossing the line in your characterizations of my actions. The trail has a stop sign at that crossing; the cars have a warning of a crossing ahead, but no stop sign. Like I said before, I had a close call myself at this same crossing because I assumed that the cars had to stop. My eyes were not "glued" on them but since I was not more than 20 yards behind them and approaching the crossing myself, I WAS watching what they were doing. And they ran the stop sign.
I submit this was a judgment call at best and again, people should spend less time worrying about other's driving and concentrate on their own. Sorry, yes I'm being harsh.

- Mark

I have my own criticism: You're taking this too personally. Was it you pulling the kid on the trail-a-bike?

I have my own criticism: You're taking this too personally. Was it you pulling the kid on the trail-a-bike?

No, but I've been in situations before where people with good intentions who don't know what they're doing attempt to "help" and I don't like it one bit, so if I'm taking this personally, that's why. I think you have to have kids of your own before you can identify with how annoying it is for someone to come in from left field and make some snap judgment about how you're handling your kids. And we'd have a lot less problems with road rage if people would worry about their own driving/riding and stop critiquing others.

If the bikers ran the stop sign, then they were technically breaking the law, albeit one that nearly all bikers violate from time to time. This somewhat supports your position to say something.

All in all, I guess this is one of those things where you had to be there. But the parents were closest to the action, so in matters like these, they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

- Mark

in granite falls on saturday i saw a 10 year-old being aggressively yelled at, by an adult (his dad i assume) on the sidewalk. from their body-language, i could almost tell that had they been in private the boy would have 'got a whuppin'... and it seemed like it wasn't that far off even in public; the kid was practically flinching at each of the redneck's words.

so what was i to do? should i interrupt and explain that intimidation & aggression aren't going to solve any problems, and that the kid would be destined to end up doing the same thing to his kids, etc? what then would i do when the man's aggression was directed at me had i confronted him?

in the end i did nothing but watch and ride away - but in that situation i think there's more justification for stepping in and saying something.

running a stop sign on a bike trail? that should be your lowest priority if you're really out to make things better.

I disagree.

One car vs. little body, the car always wins. :( The OP was simply pointing out a fact that could save those kids lives some day. The OP could have said something like, "hey a-hole, there's not a stop sign. Don't you care about your kids enough to stop and look first?"

But, the OP didn't say that. He simply pointed out that traffic doesn't stop, just in case the adult didn't already know it. The parent wasn't in the right---The parent could have recognized it as "a good deed", and, said something nice in return, even if he didn't like it. But no, he had to be a macho jerk, protecting his ego first.

Worse, it's very possible that the parent has now (indirectly) a) taught his kids that they don't have to listen to safety lectures from strangers, and b) it's ok to blow through an intersection, and c) you can be a jerk to someone who is trying to be kind. Great, just great. All this, because of a stupid ego-trip.


P.S. The analogy I see here between the OP's story and your story about the redneck is, nada.

P.P.S. A little creativity could have diffused a little of this "redneck's" anger. Like, "hey, dude, do you know where the bbq sauce is located? If I don't get that sauce my buddies are gonna make be buy the beer too!".

No, but I've been in situations before where people with good intentions who don't know what they're doing attempt to "help" and I don't like it one bit, so if I'm taking this personally, that's why. I think you have to have kids of your own before you can identify with how annoying it is for someone to come in from left field and make some snap judgment about how you're handling your kids. And we'd have a lot less problems with road rage if people would worry about their own driving/riding and stop critiquing others.

I DO have kids; 5 of them. And there were a couple of instances where I did something dumb or without thinking that I now realize endangered them at the time. I shudder when I recall them. I didn't come from "left field" and make a "snap judgement". I DID know what I was doing and that I WAS paying attention to my own riding. Sorry, "road rage" is not excusable; it is an unnecessary reaction an event. I'll bet that if the same comment came from a woman his reaction would have been different. I also bet that if the other rider had been a woman it would have taken as more helpful than critical.

In over 20 years of riding the Sammamish/Burke-Gilman trails, this is the only time I recall saying something to anyother rider about their riding when it didn't direct affect me. If I had a uniform and the authority to go along with it, then people would at least listen. But since I don't, they get defensive even when they know they are wrong. It will probably be a long time before I do it again, mostly because of the reaction that I would get.

P.P.S. A little creativity could have diffused a little of this "redneck's" anger. Like, "hey, dude, do you know where the bbq sauce is located? If I don't get that sauce my buddies are gonna make be buy the beer too!".

I ride up through Granite Falls and I do a lot of hiking/climbing up that way. You do not stop and tell someone how to reprimand their child around there. That's just asking to have something thrown at you a few miles down the road.
It's up around there (in Monroe or Snohomish, IIRC) where the locals have nailed hand-painted placards to the utility poles along side the road which read "Bicycle Free Zone".

I didn't come from "left field" and make a "snap judgement".

You were a total stranger and you decided to do the safety lecture after watching this one incident. If that's not coming from "left field" and a "snap judgment", I don't know what is. And I'll point out again that YOU ASKED FOR OPINIONS in this matter, so you might be a little less defensive.

- Mark

P.P.S. A little creativity could have diffused a little of this "redneck's" anger. Like, "hey, dude, do you know where the bbq sauce is located? If I don't get that sauce my buddies are gonna make be buy the beer too!".

I ride up through Granite Falls and I do a lot of hiking/climbing up that way. You do not stop and tell someone how to reprimand their child around there. That's just asking to have something thrown at you a few miles down the road.
It's up around there (in Monroe or Snohomish, IIRC) where the locals have nailed hand-painted placards to the utility poles along side the road which read "Bicycle Free Zone".

Wacko interruptions, though, can be good distractions, enough to stop or ease the momentum he's building up by yelling.

Unless of course, he was yelling at the kid for dropping BBQ sauce on the floor.

You were a total stranger and you decided to do the safety lecture after watching this one incident. If that's not coming from "left field" and a "snap judgment", I don't know what is. And I'll point out again that YOU ASKED FOR OPINIONS in this matter, so you might be a little less defensive.

- Mark

Didn't sound like a lecture from the way I read. You made your point numerous times so why not just let the thread die before the moderators close it

You were a total stranger and you decided to do the safety lecture after watching this one incident. If that's not coming from "left field" and a "snap judgment", I don't know what is. And I'll point out again that YOU ASKED FOR OPINIONS in this matter, so you might be a little less defensive.

- Mark

Wow. I detect a little too much testosterone here.

Somehow you read from this that I had my eyes "glued" on him, appointed myself patrol officer of the trail, put on my "safety patrol cap" and then made the "snap judgement" to come from "left field" and give a "lecture" after only one incident. I didn't realize that I could do all that and ride a bicycle too.

Most opinions were sympathetic, although the consensus is that one shouldn't expect a cordial response. Your "opinion" proves that.

And I might point out that I ASKED FOR OPINIONS in this matter, not a personal attack; so you might be a little less aggressive.

Having two little ones just a few years into boarding and skiing, I have spend a considerable amount of time on the intermediate runs at Crystal/Alpental the past few years. One of my pet peeves is when kids que up on the downhill side of a rise where you can't see them until you are on top of them. I have no problem asking them if their parents didn't teach them not to stop on the lower side of a rise where they can't be seen from above. Even if they give me the glare, at least I hope they think about what I said before they get run over.

And yes I do sometimes think about riding when it's winter and boarding when it's summer.

Wow, this is just way too intense for PNW Regional... time to put it to rest. :(