Advocacy & Safety - "Signal!"

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View Full Version : "Signal!"


qpliu
06-30-08, 07:35 PM
I was in a bike lane approaching a low-traffic intersection where the majority of the traffic turns left. I was also going to turn left, so I looked back and a car was approaching rapidly. This was pretty normal, and I figured I'd pull in behind the car before getting to the stop sign. The bike lane stripe becomes broken approaching the intersection, and, in the absence of traffic, I usually move into the lane where the solid stripe ends.

However, the car pulled next to me and slowed to my speed, and the driver yelled, "Signal!" at me. The car kept me blocked in the bike lane as I reached the intersection, so I looked at the driver after stopping. He was looking and me and threw his hands in the air. I didn't know what his problem was, and didn't want to deal with him, so I cut in front of him and turned left.

Moments later, he went by and yelled, "Signal!" again. He sounded really frustrated.

WTF?


JusticeZero
06-30-08, 07:55 PM
Odd.. Were you using hand signals?

Lykolate
06-30-08, 07:56 PM
He was pissed at you for not using hand signals...Since you were turning left, you should have raised your left hand parallel to the ground on your left side...This way cars can see what you are doing... If you did do this, Null and Void this post...


Bekologist
06-30-08, 07:57 PM
Signalling is optional in many states, if a bicyclist has to keep both hands on the bars for manuevering or braking....
despite what a bicyclist 'should' or shouldn't do, no road user has the right to enforce law by harrassing fellow road users.

the op ran into a jackstrap too stuck on himself, and likely not familiar with the signaling optional rule for bicyclists....i've gotten the reactionary "you're suppossed to be signalling" prior to some low grade motorist harassment similar to how you've described it.

too much shock talk radio into frustrated americans still stuck in their cars is take on it.

qpliu
06-30-08, 09:09 PM
I guess the guy was being an overzealous traffic vigilante looking for trouble. There was no reason for me to signal when he was passing me the first time. I was over 50ft from the intersection, probably going slower than 12mph. He was probably going 20-25mph when I first looked back. There's no hand signal to indicate that I'm going to stay in the bike lane until he passes.

John E
06-30-08, 09:12 PM
There are many situations, such as braking on a downhill grade, under which signaling is downright dangerous.

thebarerider
06-30-08, 09:16 PM
I guess the guy was being an overzealous traffic vigilante looking for trouble. There was no reason for me to signal when he was passing me the first time. I was over 50ft from the intersection, probably going slower than 12mph. He was probably going 20-25mph when I first looked back. There's no hand signal to indicate that I'm going to stay in the bike lane until he passes.

I was confused not after reading your post but after reading the replies, which seemed to completely miss the fact that you weren't changing lanes yet...

Glenn1234
06-30-08, 09:29 PM
Signalling is optional in many states, if a bicyclist has to keep both hands on the bars for manuevering or braking....


That's the key, it depends on the state and the language in the law. For example in Missouri, the language on signaling on bikes is as follows (it's in the section on mopeds and bicycles):

"Always check traffic and signal before changing lanes or changing your position within a lane." - p61 Driver's Guide

"4. Make sure you signal before you slow down, change lanes, or turn. Before merging, changing lanes, or turning, scan behind and in front to ensure that it is safe to make this maneuver. Do so in plenty of time and in cooperation with other drivers who will be affected by your move. If it is not safe, continue on a straight course and scan repeatedly and only move once it is safe. In conditions of heavy traffic, less proficient bicyclists may find it easier to wait near the curb for a safe gap to appear." - p62 Driver's Guide

Which indicates, IMO, that there is no language indicating that signaling is an optional thing for the bicyclist (in MO) regardless of circumstances. Now I question if anyone knows the meaning of the hand signals given what I've seen riding (and was about to post), so I wonder if it would do much good. But the attitude I take is that it is better to do it and not be liable in the eyes of the law than not do it and run into a problem.

Bekologist
06-30-08, 09:48 PM
I guess the guy was being an overzealous traffic vigilante looking for trouble. There was no reason for me to signal when he was passing me the first time...... There's no hand signal to indicate that I'm going to stay in the bike lane until he passes.

a motorist looking for bicyclists to harass - there's one in every mile.

Treespeed
06-30-08, 10:29 PM
Sounds like he would have had something to say if you signaled or not.
Some jack@sses always have to share their "wisdom" with us.
Sounds like you handled it really well.

CommuterRun
07-01-08, 03:00 AM
I don't understand how he thought you were going to turn, since you didn't say you has started to set yourself up for a left turn. Unless maybe he's seen you turn left there before without signaling.

"Signal!"

"Okay. You understand this signal?"

Pedaleur
07-01-08, 03:04 AM
"Signal!"

"Okay. You understand this signal?"

Indeed.

making
07-01-08, 03:13 AM
A couple of places on my commute I come up to an intersection and turn left. If the light is green I have to slow, brake, watch for bumps, watch for traffic from every direction except straight up or straight down, turn left sometimes with traffic and sometimes without. How can I do all that one handed? If you are in the left turn lane signaling is kinda redundant. I have always wondered if the control fo the bike or signaling is safest.

RTDub
07-01-08, 04:01 AM
I guess the guy was being an overzealous traffic vigilante looking for trouble. There was no reason for me to signal when he was passing me the first time. I was over 50ft from the intersection, probably going slower than 12mph. He was probably going 20-25mph when I first looked back. There's no hand signal to indicate that I'm going to stay in the bike lane until he passes.

I frequently wave traffic ahead of me in this situation. I simply do not trust a majority of motorists to acknowledge, let alone heed my hand signals.

genec
07-01-08, 07:59 AM
Signalling is optional in many states, if a bicyclist has to keep both hands on the bars for manuevering or braking....
despite what a bicyclist 'should' or shouldn't do, no road user has the right to enforce law by harrassing fellow road users.

the op ran into a jackstrap too stuck on himself, and likely not familiar with the signaling optional rule for bicyclists....i've gotten the reactionary "you're suppossed to be signalling" prior to some low grade motorist harassment similar to how you've described it.

too much shock talk radio into frustrated americans still stuck in their cars is take on it.

Optional my butt. I am tired of motorist and cyclists that do not have enough courtesy to indicate their intentions. This is basic to "sharing the road." If we don't know what the intentions of one another are, there is no "sharing," just taking.

I don't know which is more annoying, a cyclist swerving all over the road without any indication, or a motorist suddenly changing a lane without indication... they are both annoying.

Share the road and indicate your intentions.

Bekologist
07-01-08, 09:43 AM
sorry, gene, signalling is codified as optional in many states if the signal will interfere with braking or handling of the bicycle.

i agree, signalling is a courtesy and smoothes out many traffic manuvers, but as the OP stated, he had no signal for "staying in the bike lane until the fast overtaking motorist has passed"

making
07-01-08, 09:53 AM
sorry, gene, signalling is codified as optional in many states if the signal will interfere with braking or handling of the bicycle.

i agree, signalling is a courtesy and smoothes out many traffic manuvers, but as the OP stated, he had no signal for "staying in the bike lane until the fast overtaking motorist has passed"

I was serious about wether to signal or not. If I know it increases safety and is curteous to others of course I would do it. But often it takes both hands to safely navigate between the bumps and the cars etc.

noisebeam
07-01-08, 10:46 AM
Do you use a mirror? That will greatly help reduce the confusion/ambiguity you created.
Al

Treespeed
07-01-08, 11:08 AM
I understand that this is a loaded issue, but if you can't signal, then you are not in control of your vehicle.
It is simple courtesy and something we expect of motorists.
I don't see why they can't expect the same from us, they need all the help they can get.
We all do.

genec
07-01-08, 11:30 AM
I understand that this is a loaded issue, but if you can't signal, then you are not in control of your vehicle.
It is simple courtesy and something we expect of motorists.
I don't see why they can't expect the same from us, they need all the help they can get.
We all do.

I know we expect it of motorists... but frankly how often do we get a good signal from motorists? I find it doubly annoying that they can't seem to find that little lever most of the time when it really is so easy to do.

I also find it very annoying when driving to signal and have that signal ignored. Only a couple weeks ago I was given the finger by some ahole driver not allowing me to move over in spite of my long signal. (when driving) That showed the real issue of lack of courtesy on the road. It was really an idiot power play on his part for no reason what so ever. Yet those types of drivers do exist... and we all have to deal with them, on 2 wheels or 4.

Treespeed
07-01-08, 11:43 AM
Gene,

No doubt that those who see a signal and take it as a personal affront are a problem no matter what vehicle you’re driving. Sadly, courtesy is not a citable offense.

cudak888
07-01-08, 11:45 AM
I know we expect it of motorists... but frankly how often do we get a good signal from motorists? I find it doubly annoying that they can't seem to find that little lever most of the time when it really is so easy to do.

Doesn't excuse us from signaling ourselves.

-Kurt

bmclaughlin807
07-01-08, 11:54 AM
Did the car make a RIGHT turn at that intersection??? He may have had HIS signal on and been pissed that you didn't leap out of his way so he could merge right for a turn???

I dunno... strange behavior, regardless.

Edit: Meh... I guess not, if he passed you again... he was just weird. ;)

noisebeam
07-01-08, 12:13 PM
It was not weird at all. The driver was confused by the ambiguous situation the cyclist caused by looking back as if desiring to turn. The driver slowed perhaps wondered if would happen. But the cyclist neither turned nor made their intentions clear.
Next time: Signal!
Al

wibnrml
07-01-08, 12:14 PM
I've had people speed up after I had made the signal of my intention to move over to the left so I may turn left after stopping at a intersection. Hence blocking me against the curb until they pull away from the stop. Of course all kinds of interactions ensue at that point.

genec
07-01-08, 12:24 PM
Doesn't excuse us from signaling ourselves.

-Kurt

No it doesn't... that's true.

thebarerider
07-01-08, 01:24 PM
It was not weird at all. The driver was confused by the ambiguous situation the cyclist caused by looking back as if desiring to turn. The driver slowed perhaps wondered if would happen. But the cyclist neither turned nor made their intentions clear.
Next time: Signal!
Al

WTF? He wasn't changing lanes yet...why signal? This is screwy logic. I can look back without the intention of changing lanes, too. This was hardly a difficult situation for the motorist to comprehend.

noisebeam
07-01-08, 01:45 PM
WTF? He wasn't changing lanes yet...why signal? This is screwy logic. I can look back without the intention of changing lanes, too. This was hardly a difficult situation for the motorist to comprehend.
The act of looking back is often read by other drivers as a desire to turn - so well in fact that one often does not need to hand signal to negotiate a turn. You may not have the intention to turn when you look back, but others can not read your mind.

For about a year I was very frustrated by this as often when I looked back to find if I could prepare for a turn that there would be a motorist present who would slow thinking I wanted to turn then, but it would have been better to merge behind them. Confusion resulted. Timings got messed up. I resorted to hand waving motorist by me and other non-standard hand signals to help reduce the ambiguity.

This was the primary reason I bought a mirror, so I could asses traffic conditions before looking back and/or signaling. It solved all that problem and more.

Al

atbman
07-01-08, 02:24 PM
If you wait until you're 50ft from a junction before changing lanes in order to turn left and leave yourself no time to signal your intention to do so because you need to brake, then you need to look to your own positioning and bike handling.

The idea that you are exempt from signalling your intentions to other road users because you don't have the necessary skills to do so is, I'm afraid, risky.

If you have the usual US brake setup of right hand/rear brake, then signalling while braking isn't difficult. In any case, you should have signalled, moved into the left turn position and then braked.

My sympathies, such as they are, are with a driver who thought you might be going to do something, but wasn't sure what, since you weren't indicating your intentions

icedmocha
07-01-08, 02:54 PM
It is frustrating to be driving and have no idea what a cyclist is going to do. I have many drivers near me who are very courteous to cyclist. Unfortunately I have seen MANY roadies and Nest riding DUI types who feel no need to signal and simply pull into and out of traffic at the drop of a hat. That is VERY disconcerting, particularly if you are older or simply unprepared for it. I imagine that the driver you encountered had had this happen many times before. It becomes frustrating and they lash out. Be glad that he was aware of you, enough so to take notice of your intentions. If you can not safely signal while on your bike then you are either out of your comfort level or in above your head. At any rate you need to slow down, because at no point should you not be able to take basic safety measures and evasive maneuvers.

thebarerider
07-01-08, 05:26 PM
The act of looking back is often read by other drivers as a desire to turn - so well in fact that one often does not need to hand signal to negotiate a turn. You may not have the intention to turn when you look back, but others can not read your mind.

For about a year I was very frustrated by this as often when I looked back to find if I could prepare for a turn that there would be a motorist present who would slow thinking I wanted to turn then, but it would have been better to merge behind them. Confusion resulted. Timings got messed up. I resorted to hand waving motorist by me and other non-standard hand signals to help reduce the ambiguity.

This was the primary reason I bought a mirror, so I could asses traffic conditions before looking back and/or signaling. It solved all that problem and more.

Al

I pretty well understood what you meant. I was a bit reactionary in my earlier post. Apologies :)


If you wait until you're 50ft from a junction before changing lanes in order to turn left and leave yourself no time to signal your intention to do so because you need to brake, then you need to look to your own positioning and bike handling.

The idea that you are exempt from signalling your intentions to other road users because you don't have the necessary skills to do so is, I'm afraid, risky.

If you have the usual US brake setup of right hand/rear brake, then signalling while braking isn't difficult. In any case, you should have signalled, moved into the left turn position and then braked.

My sympathies, such as they are, are with a driver who thought you might be going to do something, but wasn't sure what, since you weren't indicating your intentions

But this is what gets me. As if I need to signal my intentions to do nothing? It's not my fault or the OPs fault that this driver has possibly had negative experiences with cyclists before and it's not my responsibility to signal if I'm not going to do anything.

noisebeam
07-01-08, 05:36 PM
I pretty well understood what you meant. I was a bit reactionary in my earlier post. Apologies :)

No problem.


But this is what gets me. As if I need to signal my intentions to do nothing? It's not my fault or the OPs fault that this driver has possibly had negative experiences with cyclists before and it's not my responsibility to signal if I'm not going to do anything.

You do not have to signal if your intention is to do nothing (but even then it can help in some situations.) Safe and cooperative cycling is not just about doing what is required and especially not about giving up on your own full responsibility for communication.

However in this situation the cyclist did already signal a desire. They may not have meant to but they did. So in this case they need to signal to clear up any ambiguity or confusion that results from a cyclist looking back, especially a cyclist looking back several times (not that the OP did) and is slowing down and/or ever slightly drifting leftward - all things that cyclists merging often do (conscious or not) and are subtle but are easily picked up my other drivers as clues to what a cyclist wants to or may do.

Al

qpliu
07-01-08, 06:46 PM
The act of looking back is often read by other drivers as a desire to turn - so well in fact that one often does not need to hand signal to negotiate a turn. You may not have the intention to turn when you look back, but others can not read your mind.

Yes, the driver could have made that conclusion. However, I'm not going to move left when a car is approaching from behind at twice my speed, and it wouldn't occur to me to signal a left turn when my intent is to let to car pass.


This was the primary reason I bought a mirror, so I could asses traffic conditions before looking back and/or signaling. It solved all that problem and more.

That clarifies your other post about mirrors, which I found somewhat cryptic otherwise.


If you wait until you're 50ft from a junction before changing lanes in order to turn left and leave yourself no time to signal your intention to do so because you need to brake, then you need to look to your own positioning and bike handling.

Given my low speed and the low traffic, I think I had plenty of time for making a left turn and, were I inclined, after signaling. I'll add that the approach to the intersection was slightly uphill.


In any case, you should have signalled, moved into the left turn position and then braked.

I don't know how much thought you gave to that recommendation, but I think looking back for traffic is the first thing to do in my situation.


It is frustrating to be driving and have no idea what a cyclist is going to do. I have many drivers near me who are very courteous to cyclist. Unfortunately I have seen MANY roadies and Nest riding DUI types who feel no need to signal and simply pull into and out of traffic at the drop of a hat. That is VERY disconcerting, particularly if you are older or simply unprepared for it. I imagine that the driver you encountered had had this happen many times before. It becomes frustrating and they lash out.

That sounds like a plausible explanation of driver's state of mind.

I don't think I did anything particularly unpredictable up to the point where we were stopped at the sign. However, I consider cutting in front of him to make the left turn after that to be a questionable move, but I'm not sure what else I could have done. I didn't want to get into any argument or anything like that.

To me, the incident was an isolated incident where the driver bizarrely overreacted. My experience has been that lane positioning has worked well for communicating my intent in traffic, and my use of hand signals is mostly limited to communication within group rides. However, I must admit that my personal sense of the motorist perspective is more limited than that of most American adults, as I last drove a car a few months after passing driver's ed in the mid 1980s. I'm not convinced that hand signals are worthwhile, but perhaps someone will post something that will change my mind.

noisebeam
07-01-08, 06:54 PM
Yes, the driver could have made that conclusion. However, I'm not going to move left when a car is approaching from behind at twice my speed, and it wouldn't occur to me to signal a left turn when my intent is to let to car pass.



That clarifies your other post about mirrors, which I found somewhat cryptic otherwise.
.

If I look back when I don't have a mirror and I note a driver slowing, I'll then signal and merge in front of them (as appropriate for relative speed and noting further slowing, etc.)

Sorry about not going into more detail about the mirror comment. It seems I've posted about this specific benefits of mirror many times so it gets old to type if again and again.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5382240&postcount=11
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=915020&postcount=38
etc

Al

atbman
07-02-08, 01:05 PM
I don't know how much thought you gave to that recommendation, but I think looking back for traffic is the first thing to do in my situation.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well - I took it for granted from your post that you had looked back

I'm not convinced that hand signals are worthwhile, but perhaps someone will post something that will change my mind.

I don't quite understand the problem here. If you are sharing the road with much faster and heavier vehicles, then indicating your intentions, in plenty of time, if possible, enables everyone to know what you wish to do. It also gives them the opportunity to allow you to merge/cross lanes. My last 3 years commute, before retiring, involved me in crossing from LH side of two lanes (UK) to RH side of second lane in order to turn right at roundabout/traffic circle. The speed limit was 70mph, tho' it was more like 50mph and slowing near the roundabout, during the evening rush hour. Signalling resulted in drivers easing off the accelerator and allowing me to move across - their actions were usually accompanied by a quick flash of the headlights.

Since it was a slight uphill drag, I wasn't travelling at more than about 15/18mph but other road users seemed to appreciate clear signals and co-operate. I'm not saying that it always happened immediately, but I never failed to get across.

I accept, from reading this forum for the last few years, that there are probably more ignorant drivers in the US - we have our share - but any traffic system requires co-operation from the vast majority of road users and if you give them the chance, most will do so.

genec
07-02-08, 01:26 PM
I accept, from reading this forum for the last few years, that there are probably more ignorant drivers in the US - we have our share - but any traffic system requires co-operation from the vast majority of road users and if you give them the chance, most will do so.

Nice concept... and while I do signal and do hope for co-operation from other motorists, I can tell you from both driving and cycling experiences that often there is a sense of "competition" in some places that makes signaling counterproductive. (that American "independent thing" no doubt... )

Often here on the freeways a motorist signaling will be cut off by those that feel they do not want that vehicle merging in front of them... and this same mentality gets taken to the streets... motorists will cut off a cyclist that is signaling simply because the motorist probably feels they don't want to have to slow down or deal with the cyclist.

None the less, I continue to signal. I feel being predictable and indicating my intentions is still the best practice.

littlewaywelt
07-02-08, 01:29 PM
Optional my butt. I am tired of motorist and cyclists that do not have enough courtesy to indicate their intentions. This is basic to "sharing the road." If we don't know what the intentions of one another are, there is no "sharing," just taking.

I don't know which is more annoying, a cyclist swerving all over the road without any indication, or a motorist suddenly changing a lane without indication... they are both annoying.

Share the road and indicate your intentions.

+ 1
It takes no effort to signal and every time you do it you have a chance to show a motorist that cyclists are largely responsible users of the road.

noisebeam
07-02-08, 01:33 PM
Nice concept... and while I do signal and do hope for co-operation from other motorists, I can tell you from both driving and cycling experiences that often there is a sense of "competition" in some places that makes signaling counterproductive. (that American "independent thing" no doubt... )

Often here on the freeways a motorist signaling will be cut off by those that feel they do not want that vehicle merging in front of them... and this same mentality gets taken to the streets... motorists will cut off a cyclist that is signaling simply because the motorist probably feels they don't want to have to slow down or deal with the cyclist.

None the less, I continue to signal. I feel being predictable and indicating my intentions is still the best practice.

I find that motorists are far more courteous to me when I am cycling and I signal and communicate vs. when I am motoring and do the same.

That competition you speak of is more so a motorist-motorist activity. Even then as a motorist it is quite workable to drop out of the game both in actions, and more importantly, in mindset - makes for far more enjoyable driving. Let others get ahead and don't mind if they have good reason to or not, they feel better and you don't care.

Al

genec
07-02-08, 02:04 PM
I find that motorists are far more courteous to me when I am cycling and I signal and communicate vs. when I am motoring and do the same.

That competition you speak of is more so a motorist-motorist activity. Even then as a motorist it is quite workable to drop out of the game both in actions, and more importantly, in mindset - makes for far more enjoyable driving. Let others get ahead and don't mind if they have good reason to or not, they feel better and you don't care.

Al

I tend to agree...

However, on the "competitive" end of things, I think So Cal drivers tend to be a bit more wrapped up then other areas of the country. If I am driving along and signal well ahead of my desired lane change or exit, often times that "drop out of the game" mentality will leave me stuck in the same lane as motorist after motorist flies by my vehicle, which is doing speed limit... no matter how long they have had to give way to my request (which is what a turn signal really is) I find that eventually I have to make a very definitive move to make a gap. I have also had motorists respond to my definitive move with one of their own. :eek: (The really annoying issue is when you are trying to get on the freeway... and someone is trying to get off and they don't let you move over while they hold their position... they pass you to then turn in)

Cycling is not nearly so bad... as you were indicating earlier that a head turn sometimes can be just enough... I too have found that to be true... as long as there is not a huge speed difference. But when I am on a 45-50MPH arterial and need to make a left turn... sometimes it takes more then a head turn and arm signal... it takes moving over a bit to show that you really do intend to make that move. It is a gutsy thing to do, and you really need to verify that the traffic will slow down for you... (I find that staring down the driver while you make the move helps).

It really should not be all that difficult... as "atbman" said, it should be a co-operative thing... but it just ain't so.

durwood
07-02-08, 02:15 PM
Here is a copy of the 7 basic Texas bike laws

Cyclist Rules of the Road

These "rules of the road" are based on Texas Transportation Code statutes. Find the complete bicycle code at www dot biketexas dot org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=65


1. Bicyclists have the rights and duties of other vehicle operators: (551.101)
Yes, this means you have to stop at stop signs and red lights, but cars are required to yield right-of-way to a bicycle when appropriate, just as to any other vehicle. Same Road, Same Rights, Same Rules

2. Ride as near to the curb as practicable (feasible) and go in the same direction as other traffic: (551.103)
Near the curb is subjective (we recommend leaving a cushion of about three feet) but the law gives a cyclist the right to take the lane when necessary for safety and when turning.

3. At least one hand on the handlebars (two are safer): (551.102c)
One is OK when signaling but two when turning works better.

4. Use hand and arm signals: (545.107)
Point the way you are going, let the other operators know what you want to do.

5. One rider per saddle: (551.102a)
Don't let your friends share your bike while riding unless you're both on a tandem. Pegs are not for passengers.

6. Must have a white light on the front and a red reflector or red light on the rear (for riding at night): (551.104b)
The light is primarily so people can see you coming from their side, where their headlights do not shine on your reflectors. The law, effective as of Sept. 2001, states that a red light can replace a red reflector.

7. Brakes capable of making the braked wheel skid: (551.104a)
Don't test that front brake to see if the wheel will skid while riding, especially down hill

JohnBrooking
07-02-08, 03:19 PM
In general, I support signaling when safe. I understand that sometimes you need that hand on the bar, and sometimes you also need it to brake, especially the left. I'll try to at give a quick signal when I can, and start soon enough that I can keep it up for a while before having to put my hand back. It can be tricky.

In the OP's situation, if I understand it, he was expecting the rapidly approaching car to pass before the OP really had to move to the left, which is understandable. It seems then like it was the motorist who confused the situation by slowing down next to the OP and staying with him, preventing him from moving left when he should have. How could the OP have predicted that? That said, I would have still tried to make eye contact with the driver (perhaps with kind of a "what the heck are you doing" expression) and signalled emphatically before pulling ahead, OR, if a more rational sense prevailed, maybe just waved him on through.

Stop signs especially seem to promote the reptilian "must pass bicycle" response in motorists. When approaching one, unless the car behind me is really going fast, I tend to move out into the center well ahead of time to discourage that, bike lane or no. (Around here, it's mostly no.) And sometimes the stupid motorist tries to pass anyway and ends up stopped way over in the opposing lane! :notamused:

qpliu
07-02-08, 10:04 PM
Perhaps I didn't express myself well - I took it for granted from your post that you had looked back

It seems like you were taking more for granted than that, because it still doesn't make sense. I looked back, saw a car about to overtake me, and your advice was:


In any case, you should have signalled, moved into the left turn position and then braked.

Staying in the bike lane and waiting for the car to pass still makes more sense.

Pedaleur
07-03-08, 12:42 AM
Out of curiosity, is it possible that the driver saw you make the previous two or three turns without signaling? That might explain his behaviour a little.

Widsith
07-03-08, 03:01 PM
I have a quick question about signaling: How is a right turn supposed to be signaled? The standard method taught in drivers' manuals is to point the left arm up (bent at the elbow) for a right turn and extend it straight out to the left for a left turn. But the illustrations I've seen in bike books usually show the rider extending his right arm straight out to the right for a right turn, i.e., the exact mirror image of the left turn signal. That seems logical, but since it's not the signal drivers are taught, are they going to recognize it? I've never read or heard any statement that "bike signals are different" but the illustrations seem to indicate that they are different, at least for right turns. Sadly, I haven't seen enough cyclists signaling anything over the years to be able to form an opinion on which type of signal is more commonly used.

cooker
07-03-08, 03:14 PM
It was not weird at all. The driver was confused by the ambiguous situation the cyclist caused by looking back as if desiring to turn. The driver slowed perhaps wondered if would happen. But the cyclist neither turned nor made their intentions clear.
Next time: Signal! Al

He held back on signalling because it was too late to change lanes, the car was overtaking too fast. He was going to wait until the car passed him and then signal (I hope) and change lanes, which would be the correct thing to do. It was the driver who caused problems by second guessing him. If the driver wanted to be helpful he should have passed or stayed back, not hemmed the cyclist in to give him a presumptive lecture.



I have a quick question about signaling: How is a right turn supposed to be signaled? The standard method taught in drivers' manuals is to point the left arm up (bent at the elbow) for a right turn and extend it straight out to the left for a left turn. But the illustrations I've seen in bike books usually show the rider extending his right arm straight out to the right for a right turn, i.e., the exact mirror image of the left turn signal.

You can check your local laws to be sure, My understanding is we can use either. Drivers have to use the bent left arm because they can't reach the right window and even if they could, their arm would be hidden by the body of the car from any car to their left. Cyclists can use the right arm because it's visible to others, and the message is pretty obvious.

I often point where I'm going in ambiguous situations, like a combined through/turn lane (as well as positioning myself appropriately within the lane to avoid being squeezed).

EDIT: apparently this is the law in Texas:



4. Use hand and arm signals: (545.107)
Point the way you are going, let the other operators know what you want to do.



To the OP: When the driver yelled at you to signal, you should have said "Certainly, which way way am I turning?"

genec
07-03-08, 03:31 PM
I have a quick question about signaling: How is a right turn supposed to be signaled? The standard method taught in drivers' manuals is to point the left arm up (bent at the elbow) for a right turn and extend it straight out to the left for a left turn. But the illustrations I've seen in bike books usually show the rider extending his right arm straight out to the right for a right turn, i.e., the exact mirror image of the left turn signal. That seems logical, but since it's not the signal drivers are taught, are they going to recognize it? I've never read or heard any statement that "bike signals are different" but the illustrations seem to indicate that they are different, at least for right turns. Sadly, I haven't seen enough cyclists signaling anything over the years to be able to form an opinion on which type of signal is more commonly used.

Good points, but then consider that motorists have probably forgotten the "official signal" anyway. It all comes down to educating the public... and frankly there are not enough (any) Public Service Announcements regarding cyclists on the road... I hear a PSA for boating two times a day... on the radio, but not one word about cycling.

Technically, either point with the right hand or used the upraised left arm... frankly, I rarely signal right turns anyway... as I am so close to the curb/corner that I am not likely to be signaling to anyone.

Now the exception to this is when I do happen to go from a straight only to a right turn only lane... then I use my right arm and point to where I want to go.

genec
07-03-08, 03:32 PM
To the OP: When the driver yelled at you to signal, you should have said "Certainly, which way way am I turning?"

Classic!

Like the motorist that gave me a hard time for being in the middle of the road when he was turning right... I wonder where I "should" have been.