Classic & Vintage - I found frame in trash..Raleigh?

Hi There - I'd appreciate some of your knowledge and experience to figure out who made this frame, what year it was made etc. Here is everything I can tell you about it from what I've observed and researched: I found it out on the curb in front of my building here in NYC. I've been looking for a good, inexpensive, vintage frame to build up an SS from, and think I've found it for free. I've done a TON of searching for frames that look like this and I'm pretty convinced that it's at least a Raleigh from the 70's. The lug work, wrap around seatstays and fork crown all seem similar. It has a Shimano Dura Ace head set which seems to be original. The serial # stamped under the BB reads: RA N 98220 (0 might be a C). I tried going to all the appropriate serial # I.D. sites but to no avail so far. On the front of the head tube are three dots in a triangular configuration that , from what I've gathered, most likely means there was a raleigh badge there(there is a close up of this in the 1st group of pics, bottom row, middle. Also, on the top of the BB is a little plastic/rubber valve, which I guess is to add lube to frame or BB innards? I think seatpost is 26.8 based on the SR LaPrade that was aleady in it. It's 21.5 inches from top of BB to top of seat tube.
Most of the braze-ons were hastily chopped off with a hack saw but not neatly filed down, and the frame has obviously been stripped, primed, and repainted white - rattlecan style - all probably done to convert to fixed or SS. There is a bridge on seatstays for center pull brakes.
OK, here are the pictures! I apologize if the resolution isn't great..I had to take them with my cell phone camera. I'm posting a lot of them because I always hear you guys saying that people don't post enough pics for this sort of thing.. and I don't want to get balled out!! :)
Thanks a million everyone.!! (later I'll have questions on what components to use in my rebuild.. need to be thrifty without sacrificing quality i.e nos vintage components to maintain some integrity - thinking about vintage Weinmann 610 center pull brakes. Don't know if I need to get 27" wheelset for center pulls to work properly. I plan on stripping the paint and having it beautifully powdercoated white, with a clearcoat)

..here are a few more pics..

70s-era Raleigh Grand Prix, otherwise a Carlton.

what's better - carlton or raleigh grand prix? Did they both use 531 tubing? Either way, is this a decent frame to build up? thanks.

It looks to be a nice low to mid level frame. The lugs aren't too fancy and the dropouts are stamped not forged. If it's Seventies, it probably has a 120mm - 125mm spacing. Which is perfect for a fixed/SS. Good luck

Tim

what's better - carlton or raleigh grand prix? Did they both use 531 tubing? Either way, is this a decent frame to build up? thanks.Some of the Raleigh experts can answer better than me. Raleigh bought Carlton, and (correct me if I'm wrong, Raleigh experts) for a time produced both Raleighs and Carltons. That ownership led to the use of Carlton's wrap-around seat stay treatment on the Grand Prix. Thus, this frameset is either a Raleigh Grand Prix or a Carlton.

The Grand Prix should be hi-ten tubing. Not sure about Carlton.

Taking a wild guess, I'd say Carlton is not as common, therefore more desirable. Just a guess, I'm not sure if one or the other is better. Again, the experts will know.

I would say late 70 early 80's Raleigh Grand prix 20-30 Tubing

Looking at the close-up of that head tube, there are three holes corresponding to the rivet holes on the Raleigh head badge. So unless Carltons have a similar rivet placement on theirs head badges, I'd say this is a Grand Prix.

I think you're all right about it being a Grand Prix...then 20/30 high carbon steel for sure.. I know in 1968 Carlton hand made bikes for Raleigh - but I don't know what year this is. Anyone know how I can find out the year using serial #? It' great that we've narrowed it down to being grand prix though... was grand prix mid-level for it's time... "close coupled geometry to give an exceptionally lively and responsive ride" is what one 70"s ad claimed!

what's better - carlton or raleigh grand prix? Did they both use 531 tubing? Either way, is this a decent frame to build up? thanks.

They both used Hi-ten tubing. They were low end bikes. Some of the late 1960s Carlton Grand Prixs used 531; you don't have one of them though.

The confounding detail for me is the BB oiler hole. That would indicate a 1960s bike (and would certainly mean the Dura Ace headset is not original). I'm not sure when that oiler was discontinued, but my 1961 Lenton Grand Prix had one, and my various 1971 Raleigh road bikes do not.

Neal

yeah Neal you're right... I've yet to see a post 60"s Raleigh, particularly grand prixs with that oil hole... thanks for pointing that out... now, what is it then? for sure a raleigh because of the rivet holes, but from the sixties? I need to find a way to ID using serial #'s .

I think you're all right about it being a Grand Prix...then 20/30 high carbon steel for sure.. I know in 1968 Carlton hand made bikes for Raleigh - but I don't know what year this is. Anyone know how I can find out the year using serial #? It' great that we've narrowed it down to being grand prix though... was grand prix mid-level for it's time... "close coupled geometry to give an exceptionally lively and responsive ride" is what one 70"s ad claimed!The Raleigh Record was the entry level "10 Speed." The Grand Prix was the next step up, so llow-end, not mid-level. Still, a nice, unique vintage frameset, perfect for fixie or SS conversion...and somebody has already done some of the work for you. Best of all it was free! :thumb:

I wonder if this could be earlier than 1970.
The BB oiler and the shape of bridge on seatstays for center pull brakes doesn't look like the 70s Grand Prix.
The round wrapover seat stay and the fork crown certainly look like Raleigh or Carlton.

Why don't you pull the fork. You may find the original paint color.

The Retro Raleigh site with their serial number data base is down, so here is a link to the Google cashed version of it. This should be able to tell you exactly when your frame was made.


http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:wwv4B7z1qlIJ:www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/dating.html+http://retroraleighs.com/dating.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=lv

thanks for the link Ziemas.. I've just been searching it and nothing seems to correspond to my number:
RA N 98220, unless I'm missing something.

I just pulled the fork but don't think any of the 3 colors are original. There is a deep bright blue color, a green grey primer color and the whit which was last sprayed. Maybe the blue is original? who really knows though how many times it's been stripped and repainted... that was good thinking to check though.

I'm determined to find out. Why am I so determined? To know. Will I know? I don't know.

I have a frame that has a lot of the same detailing (though not exactly the same) that consensus here pegged as a Falcon. Thread's here (OP and I traded some frames, that's how I have it now)
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=385734&highlight=

Mine definitely has two holes vertically disposed for headbadge, fitting the Falcon spacing. The precursor company to Falcon was Coventry Eagle, and their headbadge was different; perhaps with three holes, if I remember correctly. You should measure the hole spacing, and compare it to a Raleigh heron -- I don't think that they changed that, and it's possible that it's not a Raleigh/Carlton at all.

You should also check the brake bolt to dropout distances. On my frame (and many English bikes of that era), the rear needs a brake with larger reach than the Weinmann 610 will provide -- you will probably need a 750 there. Caliper sets are commonly available in 610/750 pairs.

I was reading through some of the other posts and noticed a reference to bottom bracket oil ports. It's mentioned that BB oil ports stopped in 1964 and that older BB oil ports prior to 1961 were made of steel and newer ones were plastic. That being the case, I've been estimating my dates incorrectly. My Raleigh has a plastic oil port, that would make it a 1961-1963 model. Raleigh colts and Sports had plastic ports on bb during this time, but that isn't what my frame is. Let me know what you think?

Charles - the falcon IS really similar to my frame - the lug work is a little different but everything else is right on.... and this serial number game I'm playing with raleigh is making me nuts..can't find a match.

I'm looking up Coventry Eagle right now...
and yeah, specs on badge hole spacing on head tube for raleigh would be helpful too.

I was thinking Falcon, too, based on the seat stay wrap, but I think a fair number of English builders did that, and the three rivet holes for a headbadge wouldn't likely be Falcon. Another detail that doesn't fit with Raleighs is the brazed cable stop on that rear brake bridge. I've only seen tapped/threaded stops on Raleighs.

Neal

couldn't find out how many holes for coventry eagle head badge, but hres a pretty cool site that sells nice vintage head badges for anyone looking: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/2006/11/17/coventry_eagle_badge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bikeville.com/headbadges.html&h=500&w=398&sz=22&hl=en&start=1&sig2=Ophu97Z_L0won0rysHkDfA&um=1&tbnid=uhoOP5AosQuUBM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=103&ei=-4FrSODBF4eOigHxoc3fCw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcoventry%2Beagle%2Bbicycle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

ok Neal, thanks for that insight.. this is a good process of elimination. THANK YOU all for sticking with this one so far, it's much appreciated. So considering the bb plastic oil port seems, safe to say early sixties? Any idea as to who did brazed cable stops like that, but did have a three hole head badge and rounded, wrap around seat stays? Getting close, I can feel it!

Looking at a 1962 raleigh catalog..hhmmm... superbe? lenton? blue streak? sports or gransports? Actually the Gran Sport is the only 27" with wrap around seat stays and center pull brakes- cant tell if cable bridge is brazed though. Check out the specs on this page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/catalogs/Raleigh-Catalog-1962.pdf

one more clue (don't know if it's been mentioned yet) Raleigh would most likely use their proprietary threading on the BB and the steerer: 26tpi instead of the more common 24tpi. Pull off the headset locknut (much easier that the BB) and measure the steerer with a thread gauge, or just compare to a known 24tpi locknut. Don't know what pre-Raleigh Carlton would have used, but I'm pretty sure Falcon never had 26 tpi threading.
Edit :I just looked at the pics (why do I do this 2nd and not first?) and it does not look like a Grand Prix, plus given the cotterless BB and that headset I'm almost positive you have standard 24tpi threading. It also looks a bit better that low-end, despite the stamped dropouts and forkends: I wouldn't be surprised if it's partially 531 albeit maybe straight-gauge...strip the paint and look carefully for the faint Reynolds stampings.

Now I looked at the catalog and details of the Gran Sport: some stuff matches your frame, but the braze-ons spec'd do not...still, it's in the ballpark AFA general quality level and perhaps vintage.

Hi unworthy, where might the reynolds stampings be on the tubes? Also, I don't have a thread gauge -and this may sound naive, but could I just count an inch worth of thread?

One detail that doesn't fit the Gran Sport theory is the 26.8mm seat post. I'm fairly sure those earlier Raleighs would have had 25.4-26.2mm posts (or at least the ones I've had did, particularly the ones that were straight-gauge Reynolds 531). That's the size of standard Japanese cromo framesets of the 70s and 80s. Maybe that BB oiler hole is something someone drilled later on?!

Neal

most of the braze ons were cut off at some point. I measured an inch of thread on the steerer and counted 26-27 threads per inch. Also remember the plastic oil port was only from 1961-1964, then apparently done away with.

Yeah, you certainly could if your eyesight is better than mine ;). I notice that you say your frame has had some of the braze-ons ground away, but you can check to see if the braze-on *locations* match up with what the catalog states: you should see remnants of BB cable guides and a shifter band stop on the the down tube, plus the top tube cable nubs. Main thing I see is the Gran Sport catalog picture does not seem to show the nice curved rear brake cable stop that yours most def has got. Perhaps yours is just a year-or-two later model. Reynolds stampings (if you have them) will *generally* show up on the steering column and close to the headlugs on the top and down tubes, but they are very small and lightly stamped, often cut off if the tubes are shortened or filed/ground away prior to painting. Seems more likely that, if a Gran Sport, it had Hi-tensile steel tubes, not 531.

well, I'm not 100% sure seatpost is 26.8 - someone told me the SR Laprades came that standard size.

well, given the apparent 26tpi on the steerer but the cotterless BB and 26.8 seatpost...I'm flumoxed! This mystery has to go to somebody far more versed in Raleigh minutia than me...sorry :o

ha! well thank you very much for putting in some time to help solve this riddle! more puzzle pieces are what we need. Alex

well, given the apparent 26tpi on the steerer but the cotterless BB and 26.8 seatpost...I'm flumoxed! This mystery has to go to somebody far more versed in Raleigh minutia than me...sorry :o

maybe bb isn't original?

Now I looked at the catalog and details of the Gran Sport: some stuff matches your frame, but the braze-ons spec'd do not...still, it's in the ballpark AFA general quality level and perhaps vintage.

I can see there were definately gear shifters on down tube(also, theres a little raised triangle where they go) and there are remnants of cable guides and other braze ons on the down tube and right side top of BB.

well, I'm not 100% sure seatpost is 26.8 - someone told me the SR Laprades came that standard size.

Take a close look at that seatpost; it probably has its diameter stamped on it. I have a couple of them that say 27.2. Right now, there are 26.0, 26.8 and 27.0 sizes on ebay! No doubt they made a whole range of sizes.

Take a close look at that seatpost; it probably has its diameter stamped on it. I have a couple of them that say 27.2. Right now, there are 26.0, 26.8 and 27.0 sizes on ebay! No doubt they made a whole range of sizes.

I only have american ruler - seatpost diameter measures exactly one inch, exactly. Its really scratched up, and I looked closely and thoroughly - coudn't see a size/number.

so seatpost is 25.4 mm.. just as Neal was saying the earlier raleighs had with possible straight gauge reynolds 531 tubing.

That's not the Raleigh cable stop on the back. Similar, but not the same. The serial number is not Raleigh, and the fork has a Nervex crown (I think the lugs may be Nervex as well), which I don't think Raleigh supplied in that time period. Could be wrong. Those dropouts look old school. Like mid-60's or earlier. That's consistent with the BB oiler. Plus it's an oiler, not a grease fitting, which seems later. But the lugs seem a bit later. My guess is early 60's. Here's a shot showing the Raleigh cable stop for comparison:

http://www.matthias.org/raleigh/DSC_5057.html

Karl

Karl, raleigh did use nervex lugs in the 60's.. and 70's I think, but they seem to be alot fancier/detailed than mine... and usually chrome. I would like to think they are, and that the tubing IS 531.. but not sure. You're right, I think the BB oiler does tell us it's mid 60's or earlier. Also my cable stop is distinctive, different from any raleighs.. but then again the 3 hole triangle configuration on head tube is perfectly raleigh... and now I'm perfectly confused.

some '68 raleigh carltons had straight gauge 531 and nervex lugs.. and stamped dropouts.. but not plastice bb oilers.

That's not the Raleigh cable stop on the back. Similar, but not the same. ...

Yeah, but who other than Raleigh used 26 tpi threading? If this frame has non-Raleigh (Nervex?) lugs and crown, it seems to me other non-Raleigh braze-ons wouldn't be out of the question.

The 25.4 seat post is consistent with a hi-ten steel frame.

I think you have this, in Venetian Blue:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/images/62-gran-sport.gif

Have a look at this guy's '61 Gran Sport photoset:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jwright/sets/72157594494565758/

No rear brake bridge and not quite the same lugs.

Neal

I'm with you on that gran sport - everything, including the ventian blue I found, matches... except for the chrome tipped forks, which seemed included on all gran sports.

what do mean! the lugs are identical. Looks like the same color I found underneath too. Well maybe someone at the factory felt special that day and put the curved, brazed cable bridge on my frame for fun.

I'd love to get all those original parts/components.

Neal, Thanks a lot for finding and posting that.. gives me hope that it belongs.. has a real family(tearing up)

Here's a Coventry-Eagle headbadge (apparently only two holes)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/brendantaylor/Coventry%20Eagle/coventry004.jpg
From this thread
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=173220

And another one
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/2006/11/17/coventry_eagle_badge.jpg

And a Raleigh
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3561856/1104480188984_headbadge_raleigh.jpg

When I get home, I will measure the rivet spacing on my Nottingham-built Raleigh.

The oil port on the BB of the orange Falcon is metal, and more like a zerk fitting, with a spring-loaded ball, I think (it seems to be stuck). You can still buy metal oil ports with the spring-loaded cover plate from McMaster-Carr -- don't know if the thread would be correct. I have a couple of them, since I like to use oil rather than grease on everything except the headset (and maybe I'll do that too, someday, at least for the bottom).

One last thing: I would not assume that it's a low-end frame just because it doesn't have forged dropout ends. Those look thicker than the stamped plates used by Raleigh and Peugeot in later years. If you want to know if it's a lightweight, then weigh it. Frame and fork (without anything mounted except the fixed races for headset) would be under 3 kg for a double-butted tubing frame. By that standard, the orange Falcon is not a lightweight, but it's very nicely crafted, which is why I like it. I believe that it has a fully chromed fork (or at least the crown forging and the socks) too, with a copper base (it's peeling).

Ok, that does look more like it. Interesting that Raleigh did supply Nervex earlier on, as well. At least the fork crown is for sure, don't know for sure about the lugs.

Karl

Have a look at this guy's '61 Gran Sport photoset:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jwright/sets/72157594494565758/

No rear brake bridge and not quite the same lugs.

Neal

Yeah, HIS has no rear brake bridge... but he gives a color scan of the 1962 catalog where there clearly IS a brake bridge.

thanks for finding and posting those head badges.. I love that sinister looking coventry eagle, beautiful I think.