Advocacy & Safety - Riding on sidewalks

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Robert Gardner
01-10-04, 11:19 PM
These letters appear in the LA Times editorial page on Jan 10, 2004
Print

COMMENTARY
Bicycles Compete for Space

COMMENTARY

Re "Keep Speeding Bicycles Off the Sidewalks," letter, Jan. 2: Four years ago, I was riding on Rosecrans Avenue in Manhattan Beach and was hit by a bus (the Norwalk line) leased to another bus company from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. It was a hit and run. My bike was damaged and I was banged up but, amazingly, still alive. I assume the bus driver didn't know he sideswiped me, but you never know!

Thank goodness I was as close to the curb as possible. From that moment on, I stay on the sidewalks as much as I can when I'm riding my mountain bike. I do give the pedestrians the right of way, by the way. Until the cities make the streets more bicycle-friendly with bike lanes safely separated from inattentive drivers (that'll be the day!), I'll take my chances with a possible fine.

Brian Demonbreun

Hawthorne



*

Demanding that all bicyclists on sidewalks be heavily fined ignores the fact that Los Angeles Municipal Code Section 56.15 rightly permits such riding, unless done with "willful and wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property."

Varying traffic densities, weather and lighting conditions determine whether street or sidewalk riding is safest, and I commend our city for authorizing both, as well as for supporting nonpolluting, nongas-guzzling human-powered vehicles by providing those indispensable "curb cuts." Rather than blaming cyclists for being forced to compete with either cars or people, why not work to make bike lanes commonplace so that bikers, drivers and pedestrians can all enjoy the safety assured by separate rights of way?

David M. Dismore

Los Angeles



*

As a person whose primary form of transportation is a bicycle, I would gladly stay in the street where "bikes belong" if the auto-arrogant public showed any semblance of respect or courtesy. There isn't a day that goes by in which bicyclists like myself are not subjected to hostile and dangerous behavior by increasingly frustrated drivers looking to vent their traffic demons. The main consideration here should be that a car is a deadly weapon. If I am being squeezed into oblivion by a road-hogging SUV, then cruising on a safer sidewalk could mean the difference between life and death.

It's time for those in the driving public to wake up and realize that they do not have divine rights to the road. Try riding a bike on our city streets and see what real danger is.

Peter Rhodes

Burbank


The Rob
01-11-04, 12:44 AM
May I state once again how happy I am to be living in Portland?

I have two issues with the first cyclist's story:



I assume the bus driver didn't know he sideswiped me, but you never know!

Why didn't he know? Surely he informed the transportation authority of the incident, provided the time and place, and demanded an accounting? If not, why not?


Thank goodness I was as close to the curb as possible.

It's impossible to know exactly what he meant by this statement; it can be interpreted in more than one way. Visibility is key when riding the road, so I can only hope that the cyclist could addend his statement with the words "while maintaining a steady line of travel and ensuring that my position on the road was not obscured by vehicles parked along the curb or by other obstructions".

All this aside, if my only safe option on a route was on the sidewalk, I'd find another route. Sidewalks are for pedestrians.

ngateguy
01-11-04, 02:48 AM
Visibility is key In Washington the pamphlet they put out on bike laws and safety even state that you are to be visible to cars at all times there is no requirement to stay as close to the curb as possible that could really be un safe.
In the Seattle area we are allowed to use sidewalks I only do in one case on the way home I use a stretch of sidewalk rarely used by pedestrians to avoid a bunch of angry drivers and a couple of lights though I have to be cautious of cars coming out of the Adobe building without looking both ways. and the occasional car that pulls so far forward they block the sidewalk and bike lane in the street (I am going against traffic so I cannot legally use the bike lane). Otherwise I stay off the sidewalks they are for pedestrians not vehicles.


marcg
01-11-04, 06:25 AM
Come to France. Bicycles and even motorcycles regularly use the sidewalks to avoid one-way-road restrictions or to avoid traffic jams.

bac
01-11-04, 09:15 AM
The problem is that most people in the States (certainly where I live) believe that bicycles don't belong on the sidewalk OR the road - they simply don't belong. I get crap for riding the road and riding on the sidewalk. However, none of it deters me from riding where I think it's the most safe.

I took a detour through a local playground only to find a "no bicycles" sign posted. It's a playground!!! Gee, I wonder why kids are fat. :rolleyes:

DMulyava
01-11-04, 09:41 AM
I just generally ride where I feel that it's more safe.

Don't make fun of me.. but in the busier times of the day, I hop between the sidewalk and the road to avoid traffic, people, stoplights, etc ;)

John E
01-11-04, 03:34 PM
There are a couple of tricky spots in which I resort to sidewalk cycling, but it is generally safer to ride in the street. Driveway cuts and intersections are particularly deadily for sidewalk cyclists. When a cyclist wants or needs to travel against traffic, such as to avoid a dangerous left turn (or, in my case, two consecutive left turns on multilane arterial highways), he/she definitely belongs on the sidewalk, to avoid endangering lawful vehicular cyclists. Of course, when on the sidewalk, one must respect pedestrians' real and perceived safety.

LittleBigMan
01-11-04, 08:22 PM
Robert knew what he was doing when he started this thread.

Where do bikes belong?

I can't be sure, but Robert Gardner remembers when bikes were ridden in the street. He also remembers when cyclists were bullied off the street.

Brian Ratliff
01-11-04, 10:42 PM
I had an incident where I was almost hit by a bus. I was in the bicycle lane and the bus just passed me (it was not even by me all the way) when it veered into the bike lane to make a stop at a bus stop. I was stuck inbetween the bus and the curb, so I had to stop until the bus took off again.

I think that bus drivers don't always remember how long their buses are and they forget that when they pass a cyclist, then they have to make sure they do not cut them off when the veer over to make a stop. I did not do anything on this occasion because I was only in danger of being forced to the curb, but if I were actually hit by the bus, or the bus actually forced me off the road, then I would note the time, bus number and street stop, and report that to the transit authority. This was in Portland, so I would think that something would get done, but that may be just wishful thinking.

All in all, I find sidewalk riding harder and less safe than road cycling, but that may be because I ride fast and I am used to cars passing me on the road. If a person is riding slow and is used to dodging things in their path, then a sidewalk may be the better option. For me the sidewalk is only used if I make a mistake in finding the place where I want to be and do not want to ride around the block.

For someone riding a sidewalk, remember that they are designed for pedestrian use, and if you are riding a bike on it, you should keep your speed slow and keep a sharp eye out for obstacles, pedestrians, other cyclists, cars, dogs, trees, cuts for driveways, pavement cracks, and any other thing that may crop up with a sidewalk. In other words, ride as if you are walking.

BR

Dahon.Steve
01-12-04, 01:01 PM
For someone riding a sidewalk, remember that they are designed for pedestrian use, and if you are riding a bike on it, you should keep your speed slow and keep a sharp eye out for obstacles, pedestrians, other cyclists, cars, dogs, trees, cuts for driveways, pavement cracks, and any other thing that may crop up with a sidewalk. In other words, ride as if you are walking.

BR

Bingo. That's what I do in many occasions. When commuting or riding long distances, I always ride on the road. There are times when I do ride on sidewalks.

Night-time - If I'm just bombing around town at 12 midnight. I'll ride on the sidewalk at about 4 mph or walking speed. It's a nice experience to ride around downtown in the middle of the night with all the store lights on and not a soul in sight. You get to look at all the windows and it's a different experience. The trick is, you have to go real slowly even at night since obstacles can be everywhere. As the previous post said, walking speed should be your top speed. If I have to commute at night for long distance, then I'll ride on the streets.

LittleBigMan
01-12-04, 01:24 PM
I wonder if the commentaries Robert provided are a true reflection of how most experienced cyclists feel.

Could it be the media's way of misrepresenting what cyclists really want?

pletcgm
01-13-04, 12:14 AM
This is why I take up 1 lane of traffic when commuting to work. The speed limit is 30 mph. I usually average around 25 mph. I always think, if I can stay within 5 mph of the speed limit, then I have the right to take up a whole lane! If I can't keep up, or I have to slow down, then I get over to the right. I feel much safer because any cars wanting to pass me will have to be in the other lane, instead of the same one that I am in!

RatherBeCycling
02-05-04, 03:48 PM
I had an incident where I was almost hit by a bus. I was in the bicycle lane and the bus just passed me (it was not even by me all the way) when it veered into the bike lane to make a stop at a bus stop. I was stuck inbetween the bus and the curb, so I had to stop until the bus took off again.

BR

I've had the infamous run in with a bus too. The first time was accidental, the bus driver did the same thing to me as the one in your story did to you. He got stuck at the next traffic light and I kind of game him "the look" (like thanks for almost hitting me). I beat him to the next light, which happened to have a construction barrier right next to the bike lane where normally cars would be parked. The bus driver purposely cut over and left me with maybe an inch between the bus and the construction barrier. Had I started to go when the light turned green, I'm sure I would have ended up either hitting the wall or getting hit by the bus. I think bus drivers have a tendency to be the most inconsiderate drivers on the road. I guess it's because they spend all their time driving the same route they begin to feel that they own those roads.

nick1111
02-05-04, 04:19 PM
Riding on the sidewalk works for me. Seems to be where most people want to see bikes anyway.

widmn
02-06-04, 09:03 AM
I ride on sidewalks when there is traffic in the road. I try to stick to backroads and minimal traffic going out of my way to get to work. I avoid car traffic at all costs. Despite what many say about "owning the road" and legal rights, bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker. Doesn't matter what you think your rights are or whether the car drivers are arrogant aholes if your injured or dead does it? To many people ignore the statistics of not only clobbered bicyclists but maimed motorcyclists. Only arrogant fools ride on busy streets.

www.southernblades.com

Schiek
02-06-04, 09:14 AM
It's illegal to ride on the sidewalk in some business districts. For instance, in DC bicycles cannot be ridden on the sidewalk in the Central Business District, unless the sidewalk is expressly designated by order of the mayor (DC Regs Ch.12 § 1201.9).

Personally, I feel safer on the street. Drivers have some expectation of what I am doing, and I usually have a pretty good idea, or can anticipate their moves. Pedestrians are a whole different animal.

Also, drivers do not look for cyclists on sidewalks at intersections, I have seen casual cyclists almost killed trying to cross the street from the sidewalk, rather than in the flow of traffic.

It is called a sideWALK for a reason.

ngateguy
02-06-04, 09:20 AM
bikes do not belong on the road in traffic.
[[/url]

But alas we belong on the road more than we do on sidewalks. First sidewalks are designed for pedestrians not vehicles. Roads are designed for vehicles. I find riding on a sidewalk at 15+ miles an hour totally unsafe and insane. Cars do not pay attention to any sidewalk traffic when making right or left turns off the street nor when pulling out of driveways. Riding in the streets is no more unsafe than driving. I think being a polite rider is important (its better sometimes to be polite than right). The riders who ride down the middle of the street slowing traffic are not obeying the law (at least in this state) vehicles are not allowed to slow traffic if you are moving slower than the traffic you are to pull over and let traffic go by as soon as it is safe to do so. We need to SHARE the road not own it. And I may be slightly on the arrogant side (as you seem to be byu your post) but I am not a fool.

emgNH
02-06-04, 10:04 AM
nice post, ngateguy.

in NH at least, riding on sidewalks is governed by town ordinance; it's illegal everywhere i have lived. i have no desire to jockey for room with pedestrians, baby carriages, older people, and children while trying to both avoid being knocked off a four inch curb and maintain a 15-20 mph rate of speed.

bicycles are vehicles. they belong on the road.

this is also, by the way, my issue with segways. a wheeled vehicle moving 20 miles an hour DOES NOT belong on the sidewalk.

ChezJfrey
02-06-04, 10:10 AM
. . . bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker.

Using this logic, I should start riding my motorcycle on the sidewalk since it is in a different weight class than a car or truck.

Schiek
02-06-04, 10:50 AM
bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker.


80,000 lb. fully-loaded eighteen-wheeler hits 2000 lb. vehicle. Holy cow! What are you doing driving on the road? Cars belong on sidewalks!

-The Snowman and Fred

'East bound and down, loaded up and truckin' we gonna do what they say can't be done...'

caloso
02-06-04, 11:14 AM
I have a road bike. I ride it on the road.

If you have a sidewalk bike, ride it on the sidewalk.

Buzzbomb
02-06-04, 11:28 AM
Despite what many say about "owning the road" and legal rights, bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker. Doesn't matter what you think your rights are or whether the car drivers are arrogant aholes if your injured or dead does it? To many people ignore the statistics of not only clobbered bicyclists but maimed motorcyclists. Only arrogant fools ride on busy streets.

www.southernblades.com

Yep, you stepped in it real good right here...

Feldman
02-06-04, 01:28 PM
Wheels=road, feet=sidewalk--is that simple enough for anyone? Then of course we have to figure out where those Segway things fit in!

LittleBigMan
02-06-04, 01:39 PM
I ride on sidewalks when there is traffic in the road. I try to stick to backroads and minimal traffic going out of my way to get to work. I avoid car traffic at all costs. Despite what many say about "owning the road" and legal rights, bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker. Doesn't matter what you think your rights are or whether the car drivers are arrogant aholes if your injured or dead does it? To many people ignore the statistics of not only clobbered bicyclists but maimed motorcyclists. Only arrogant fools ride on busy streets.


If you were correct about it being safer to ride on sidewalks, I would agree with you. But the simple fact of the matter is that riding a bike on the sidewalk is extremely dangerous. Just because a thing feels safe, that doesn't mean it is.

We don't ride on the road because we're arrogant fools, we ride there because it's safer.

ChezJfrey
02-06-04, 03:53 PM
You know, I bet it's safer to just ride those bicycles they have in those "Fitness Clubs." I imagine they never tangle with traffic.

But, I suspect that I might be pedalling a LONG, LONG time before I arrive at my work entrance every morning.

temp1
02-06-04, 03:57 PM
even in Nazi Germany you could ride a bike in the road.

Chris L
02-06-04, 05:02 PM
I ride on sidewalks when there is traffic in the road. I try to stick to backroads and minimal traffic going out of my way to get to work. I avoid car traffic at all costs. Despite what many say about "owning the road" and legal rights, bikes do not belong on the road in traffic. Think about it. 2000 lb vehicle hits 200 lb biker. Doesn't matter what you think your rights are or whether the car drivers are arrogant aholes if your injured or dead does it? To many people ignore the statistics of not only clobbered bicyclists but maimed motorcyclists. Only arrogant fools ride on busy streets.[/url]

If you looked at the statistics, you'd actually see that riding on the road is not only safer than riding on the footpath/sidewalk, it's also considerably safer than driving on the road. Not to mention the fact that the busier the road, the less likely you are to be hit, and the less the impact will be if you were simply because grid-locked traffic moves slower. There's not such thing as an arrogant fool -- arrogant fool is a contradiction in terms. Arrogance is not the act of a fool and fools have nothing to be arrogant about.

BTW, quit the blatant trolling just to add a link to a post. If you want to promote your website, do it in the Shameless promotions forum.

Chris L
02-06-04, 07:35 PM
Using this logic, I should start riding my motorcycle on the sidewalk since it is in a different weight class than a car or truck.

Actually, the weight differential between most cars and trucks is far greater than the weight differential between most cars and the average bicycle. Ergo, perhaps everone in anything less than an SAV (Suburban Assault Vehicle) should start driving on the footpath/sidewalk.

Poguemahone
02-07-04, 06:12 AM
...and don't forget that bicycles are slower than cars and therefore should not be allowed in traffic. Of course, this ignores the fact that some cars are slower than others, so only hi-performance cars should be allowed on the road, everything else on the sidewalk... perhaps the only thing allowed on the road should be hopped up supercharged tractor-trailers, so we can take care of both the speed and the size issues.

Chris L
02-07-04, 01:55 PM
...and don't forget that bicycles are slower than cars and therefore should not be allowed in traffic. Of course, this ignores the fact that some cars are slower than others, so only hi-performance cars should be allowed on the road, everything else on the sidewalk...

It also ignores the fact that in traffic that can even be described as "moderate", bicycles are actually faster than cars -- and in gridlock, I can turn a 2-3 hour drive into a 30 minute ride. Maybe during the so-called "rush hour", all cars should move to the sidewalk to allow bikes through easier -- not that they make it overly difficult for me as it is.

LittleBigMan
02-07-04, 02:07 PM
Christopher, what time is it over there? It's about 4:08 here.

You're online, I was just wondering, mate! :D

Chris L
02-07-04, 03:23 PM
Christopher, what time is it over there? It's about 4:08 here.

You're online, I was just wondering, mate! :D

Right now it's about 8.30am here. I'd normally be riding during this time, however I went for a solid ride yesterday and a barbecue last night. I might head out later on for a few extra km -- even if this is supposed to be an easy weekend.

iceratt
02-07-04, 03:50 PM
...and don't forget that some cars are slower than others, so only hi-performance cars should be allowed on the road, everything else on the sidewalk.

I take the reverse position. Only the slowest should be allowed on sidewalks. Since my son Natty is slower than anything else on the sidewalk( he has taken 20 minutes to walk a whole two blocks to school), he should have exclusive rights to the city's walkways. Considering how few people walk around here, he practically does have them to himself.

LittleBigMan
02-07-04, 06:47 PM
I take the reverse position. Only the slowest should be allowed on sidewalks.
Lemme tell ya...I was walking down the sidewalk from the train station to the college to meet my daughter and some green sprout comes bombing down the otherwise barren sidewalk in his bike. I thought, ya, he'll slow down, but he almost clipped me at high speed.

Chris L
02-07-04, 07:11 PM
I take the reverse position. Only the slowest should be allowed on sidewalks. Since my son Natty is slower than anything else on the sidewalk( he has taken 20 minutes to walk a whole two blocks to school), he should have exclusive rights to the city's walkways. Considering how few people walk around here, he practically does have them to himself.

I think Pogue was making that point to highlight the ludicrous nature of the troll's 'arguments'. As far as I'm concerned, the only wheeled thing on sidewalks/footpaths should be wheelchairs.

Poguemahone
02-08-04, 11:05 AM
"As far as I'm concerned, the only wheeled thing on sidewalks/footpaths should be wheelchairs."

Little kids on tricycles and bikes are okay, too, in my book. You've gotta start riding somewhere, and I don't think tossing 'em out into traffic first thing is the best idea. Let's not forget baby strollers.

Seriously, IMHO, cyclists can dismount/mount on the sidewalk, but should get into traffic ASAP. I'll ride a little bit on one, maybe 1/2 a block, before a dismount, but only if there are no pedestrians.

Riding on walks is fraught with dificulties, not the least of which is you're less visible to motorists, and moving faster than a pedestrian. It would seem to me you're much more likely to get hit at an intersection if you're using the walk, due to the visibility problems.

The base fallacy of the car/bike problem is that too many assume that cyclists are most often hit from behind. If you're cycling with traffic, everything I've seen indicates you're far more likely to get hit by a turning car at an intersection. I don't think riding on the walk would do anything but increase the potential for such a collision. In addition, if you're riding with and behaving as the rest of the traffic (we're talking flow here, not speed and size), you're far more predicatable to the drivers around you than a cyclist behaving in an unorthodox, take me out of the gene pool, fashion (i.e. riding against traffic or on the walk).

LittleBigMan
02-08-04, 12:47 PM
The base fallacy of the car/bike problem is that too many assume that cyclists are most often hit from behind. If you're cycling with traffic, everything I've seen indicates you're far more likely to get hit by a turning car at an intersection.
Absolutely.

If the main danger of cycling was posed from same-direction traffic, then freeways would be the most dangerous place to drive a car, because on freeways, everyone is flowing in the same direction. But it is precisely this same-direction design of freeways that allows traffic to flow faster with fewer crashes.

The principle of traffic flowing together in the same direction with predictable behavior at intersections is at the basis of safe traffic flow design. Removing bicycle traffic from the main flow and re-routing it to criss-cross the existing grids endangers all cyclists who use such routes. All you have to do is look at the unacceptable number of pedestrian injuries and deaths from being struck by motor vehicles to see that cyclists wouldn't fare any better.

However, cyclists who use the roads in an unsafe, unpredictable manner are at a high risk of crashing. I would strongly advocate that all cyclists know how to flow safely and predictably with traffic before being released into it, as would be the case with children (or even adults who don't know better.)

Chris L
02-08-04, 08:33 PM
"As far as I'm concerned, the only wheeled thing on sidewalks/footpaths should be wheelchairs."

Little kids on tricycles and bikes are okay, too, in my book. You've gotta start riding somewhere, and I don't think tossing 'em out into traffic first thing is the best idea. Let's not forget baby strollers..

You are right, of course. I'm just referring to teenagers on bikes who don't know how to ride them properly. I've been a pedestrian on the footpath/sidewalk in those situations, too.

Daily Commute
02-10-04, 08:38 AM
I think bus drivers have a tendency to be the most inconsiderate drivers on the road. I guess it's because they spend all their time driving the same route they begin to feel that they own those roads.

I've had exactly the opposite experience. In Columbus, city bus drivers are some of the most courteous drivers on on the road. I think there are three reasons for this. They are experienced, they are easily identifiable, and their employer has a financial incentive to punish dangerous driving.

As to riding on the sidewalk, I only do it for very, very short distances, usually right before I dismount outside of my office. Crossing streets while riding on sidewalks is extremely dangerous because cars aren't looking for you. I agree with the numerous posters who say that when on the sidewalk, ride like you are walking. Better yet, if you have to be on a sidewalk, get off your bike and walk. If that's too slow, get back on the road.

franklen
02-10-04, 08:47 AM
A thought just popped into my mind. I know the safety issue with riding sidewalks instead of roadways, but everyone seems to always spout off about how cars are not looking for bicyclists at intersections and when crossing roadways, driveways, etc from sidewalk to sidewalk ("Crossing streets while riding on sidewalks is extremely dangerous because cars aren't looking for you."). But that is not a radical behavior because pedestrians cross all the time, and car drivers have to be aware and on the lookout for them. Nothing really makes the bikes any different than the walkers, unless they choose not to stop or slow down to pedestrian speed at each of these intersections, which is the difference I guess.

Daily Commute
02-10-04, 09:09 AM
Bikes on sidewalks are at higher risks at crosswalks than pedestrians because bikes generally go faster than pedestrians. Bikes are also not as maneuverable. Try stopping on a dime and jumping backwards on your bike. Or a yard to your right.

ngateguy
02-10-04, 09:24 AM
[QUOTE=franklen\. But that is not a radical behavior because pedestrians cross all the time, and car drivers have to be aware and on the lookout for them. Nothing really makes the bikes any different than the walkers, unless they choose not to stop or slow down to pedestrian speed at each of these intersections, which is the difference I guess.[/QUOTE]

You need to be a pedestrian they don't watch out forthem either. They just move slower. I still have to dodge cars when they are turning and I am walking.

madpogue
02-10-04, 10:20 AM
The speed difference factor (bicycle vs. pedestrian) in a crosswalk has two manifestations. Not only is it more difficult (as has been stated) for the bicyclist to react than the pedestrian, but a car driver approaching the crosswalk has less reaction time with a bicyclist coming into a crosswalk at higher speed than a pedestrian.

This doesn't excuse a motorist from failing to yield. And here, in one of the supposedly most bicycle-friendly cities in the country, pedestrians are routinely brushed back to the curb by motorists who fail to yield.

They recently instituted a "flag" system, where you pick up a little red flag at the corner, carry it as you cross, and drop it off on the other side, at several of the city's busiest crosswalks. To me, it's a silly idea. It puts the onus on the pedestrian to do something extra to get the motorist to do what s/he's legally required to do in the first place. Plus, it establishes two standards; drivers might get the (wrong) idea that if there are no flags at the intersection, they don't have to yield (they do).

Generally, when I want to cross in a crosswalk, I'll dismount and walk it across. Yeah, my right-of-way is the same, but I want to leave the driver no excuse; I want to make sure the motorist sees me in time to yield. Often I do this for the express purpose of getting across faster than if I stay on the street, and have to wait like any other traffic.

ngateguy
02-10-04, 11:07 AM
They recently instituted a "flag" system, where you pick up a little red flag at the corner, carry it as you cross, and drop it off on the other side, at several of the city's busiest crosswalks. To me, it's a silly idea. It puts the onus on the pedestrian to do something extra to get the motorist to do what s/he's legally required to do in the first place. Plus, it establishes two standards; drivers might get the (wrong) idea that if there are no flags at the intersection, they don't have to yield (they do).

I agree that is a silly idea. That seems to be the trend is to try and take more responsibility off the driver. A lot of our underground parking lots here in Seattle have warnings now for when cars are comming out. I think it should be the other way around, they need to be reminded that there is pedestrian as well as other traffic out ther to be cautious.

Roughstuff
02-10-04, 12:11 PM
"If you're cycling with traffic, everything I've seen indicates you're far more likely to get hit by a turning car at an intersection. I don't think riding on the walk would do anything but increase the potential for such a collision.

Absolutely spot on. I have seen more accidents of this type than all the others combined. If you are not careful you'll slide right under the car and get squelched by the rear wheels. I am always ultra vigilant when I come up to a major right turn. Here is exactly a situation where it is probably better to completely claim your lane so no one can pass you.

The best case I ever got cut off was on a bike tour years ago in Czechoslovakia. I swung out my left hand to hit the guys' passenger window and not only BROKE IT (the window, not my hand) but shattered it completely and scared the hell out of the passenger. For some odd reason all the glass still managed to fall outside the vehicle. We didn't have any languages in common so i just shrugged my shoulders and rode off; never heard anything else about it.

roughstuff

Richard D
02-11-04, 04:05 AM
Pedestrians are far less predictable than car drivers - I'll stick to the roads, but then in this country riding on the 'sidewalk' is illegal anyway.

franklen
02-11-04, 07:57 AM
I was wondering yesterday whether any of the studies that determined that bicycling on the road is safer than bicycling on the sidewalks, took into account the skill and biking knowledge level of the riders. I mean in the end it is no excuse to not know the proper rules and procedures for operating your vehicle whether a car or bicycle. But might not the people who are injured while riding thier bikes on the sidewalk (by weaving through peds and not being careful at driveways and crosswalks)also be the ones who would regularly run redlights and stopsigns, squeeze through long lanes of traffic, ride in the door zone, and ride the wrong direction on the street, and thus probably also get injured if they were actually on the roads? I mean if you aren't going to ride safe, you aren't going to period. But if you are riding safe and conscientiously then you are in good shape. Just a thought I had floating around during the ride home yesterday.

Poguemahone
02-11-04, 08:14 AM
franklen, you might see if you can dig up a copy of a book called Effective Cycling by John Forrester (I think, I'm going from my extraordinarily faulty memory). He analyzes the exact points you bring up... he's got another book called, (I think) Bicycle Transportation but I've not read it.

Daily Commute
02-11-04, 09:07 AM
The safety arguments are valid, but they miss the main reason not to ride on sidewalks--it's rude.

Unless you are about to dismount, or unless the city has stupidly made the sidewalk a bike path, it is best to stay off the sidewalks. We bicyclists have enought PR problems without scaring the bejeebers out of pedestrians.

Allister
02-11-04, 05:18 PM
I was wondering yesterday whether any of the studies that determined that bicycling on the road is safer than bicycling on the sidewalks, took into account the skill and biking knowledge level of the riders.

This is a valid point. I do believe that the stats for collisions on footpaths is skewed by the number of children crashing.

Yes you can ride safely on the footpath, IF you're always ready to stop on a dime, IF you hold your speed under 15km/h or preferably 10km/h, and IF you don't mind getting clocked in the melon by low hanging branches.

I generally prefer the speed and convenience of the road.