Road Bike Racing - Is it possible for my Max HR to increase over time?

I posted this in the Road forum as well but I thought the racers might have better insight.

So before this season, my max heart rate in a race was 197. During tonight's crit I felt spectacular but analyzing the data there are 4 data points where my HR went over 200. Now if these points were together they would be an anomaly and I still think one possibly might be.

I hit:

- 202 bpm at the end of the first lap (very conceivable and might not be an anomaly)
- 216 bpm at 2 miles in (this is the most suspicious as 216 is ridiculous for me but it also occured at a point where I was sprinting to grab onto the last wheel that passed me after being lapped)
-198 at 4.1 miles after being lapped again
- 202 bpm at 5 miles after sprinting to try to close the final gap between me and the last wheel.

I really think the 202, 198, and 202 bpm are possible...216 not so much?

Any feedback? I'm 25 yrs old, have been into competitive sports my whole life (baseball, basketball, and now cycling) so I'd say I have the ability to be very fit (my current RHR is 42 bpm) but at the moment I'm just coming into some fitness for the first time this year.

Once you know what your real MHR is it is my understanding that you cannot increase that number.

I think you should throw away your heart rate monitor.

-bullseye

Once you know what your real MHR is it is my understanding that you cannot increase that number.

Yeah i figured my real max might be higher than the 197 I hit last year (which was my first season of racing) so the 202s are feasible.

I think you should throw away your heart rate monitor.

-bullseye

It is the garmin 305 and it has been great for almost 2 years for me. I think I'll keep it thank you. I never look at it though until after the ride. If I had seen 216 on the screen I think i would have fallen over thinking I was having a heart attack.

216 and 220 seem to be common "rubbish" numbers for HRMs - electrical interference or something else. Does the high value look like a spike on motionbased (or whatever you used)?

As to the general question - I have seen my max increase in the last year (as I have become fitter) so yes, it can happen. The actual maximum rate your heart can pump at should (probably?) not increase, but your ability to get to that level of exertion can.

Yeah, whenever my HRM has issues with interference or contact it gives me a HR of 220 or so. The ones around 200 sounds consistent enough to be real though.

you can decrease it over time.

216 and 220 seem to be common "rubbish" numbers for HRMs - electrical interference or something else. Does the high value look like a spike on motionbased (or whatever you used)?

+1

I get these kinda of reading quite a bit with my Polar 725. It easy enough to figure out what the real max numbers are when looking at the charts in WKO.

The 216 is BS. The 202 sounds realistic.

FWIW, my lab-tested max-hr is 205. I usually max out around 198 in races but have hit 204 a few times this year.

The problem with finding your real max hr is in order to hit your real max you have to dig really deep into the pain cave, and most people stare into that pit of darkness and shy away.

The 216 is BS. The 202 sounds realistic.

FWIW, my lab-tested max-hr is 205. I usually max out around 198 in races but have hit 204 a few times this year.

The problem with finding your real max hr is in order to hit your real max you have to dig really deep into the pain cave, and most people stare into that pit of darkness and shy away.

i must find the pain cave this weekend.

later.

My experience has been not so much pain or fitness, but if my leg strength is low I can't hit my "real" max. Need to be capable of high power/short duration efforts to max out my HR.

My experience has been not so much pain or fitness, but if my leg strength is low I can't hit my "real" max. Need to be capable of high power/short duration efforts to max out my HR.

Im am the same. I need to be fresh to be able to hit my max. A month ago i couldnt get out past 180. In the last week or so, i've been hitting it close to my max of 191 a couple of times. I changed up me training to get over the funk. I guess it worked.

The more I look at the data the more I think the 216 is an actual peak. There is a period for almost 2 minutes where my heart rate is over 200 bpm and peaks at 219 bpm. Here's the data.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b96/chrisvu05/critHRdata.jpg

I don't think so. I think you've got a misreading on that 219 spike. Look at the time, it's only over a 30 second period and it is a quick jump to the ceiling -- this just reeks of bogus hrm data.

I don't think so. I think you've got a misreading on that 219 spike. Look at the time, it's only over a 30 second period and it is a quick jump to the ceiling -- this just reeks of bogus hrm data.

um...it looks to me like my heart rate peaks over 200 at the 4:30 mark and stays over 200 until the 6:00 mark which would be a 1.5 minutes. This is exactly the point in the race where I had been lapped the first time and was picking up my pace to catch on to the back of the group when they came by. I think it is real.

dude, it doesn't seem right.

look at your elevation coninciding with the 219 max. you are telling me that you were at 180 at the top of the hill (where most people would be at their highest), hit your max heart rate at the bottom of the roller (where most people would be at a lower number), and then the number shot down again as you went over top of another roller? i understand that the elevation gain is small, but that is tough to believe.

furthermore, you went from 98 bpm to 210 in around a minute.

it's not like this is a pissing contest. max hr really doesn't mean much when it comes to performance. it is just tough for people to beleive that number, especially considering that it is more likely that your real max is 225-230 based on your ability to hit 219. you either have some weird genetics or you are in need of a better heart rate monitor.

dude, it doesn't seem right.

look at your elevation coninciding with the 219 max. you are telling me that you were at 180 at the top of the hill (where most people would be at their highest), hit your max heart rate at the bottom of the roller (where most people would be at a lower number), and then the number shot down again as you went over top of another roller? i understand that the elevation gain is small, but that is tough to believe.

furthermore, you went from 98 bpm to 210 in around a minute.

it's not like this is a pissing contest. max hr really doesn't mean much when it comes to performance. it is just tough for people to beleive that number, especially considering that it is more likely that your real max is 225-230 based on your ability to hit 219. you either have some weird genetics or you are in need of a better heart rate monitor.

But in this case the elevation gain is less than 10 ft so I think the peaks are actually coinciding with periods of exertion i.e. points at which I am having to drastically having to alter my effort so that I can hang on to the passing group that is going 5mph faster than me.

As far as the 98-210 in one minute. That was during the first lap of a crit. First lap is an all out sprint to jockey for position so I went from standing to going all out in less than a minute. I think that is very possible for my HR to do so. If you'd like to see other examples of this I can show every single crit race i've done where my HR goes from around 100 bpm to my max in the first lap or so.

I truly believe the 219 could be and probably is a freak reading however the original question was "Is it possible for my max HR to change over time?" I think however I've answered it for myself in the fact that my previous MHR was what I thought was my MHR and wasn't a true MHR. I'm assuming I've realized that I can suffer a little more pain and my MHR is probably a little over 200bpm which would make most of the peaks correct and that 219 is probably way off.

Can a person's max heart rate increase over time: Lacking some medical issue that limits the heart, like an electrical abnormality, as fitness increases so can max heart rate. There is a theoretical maximum. But, that is what it is, theoretical.

Are the numbers given accurate: Maybe, maybe not. As the comments show they certainly are open to interpretation.

^^^ I guess then the original question should have been "Was my originally perceived max HR actually 197 bpm when last night i hit 202 multiple times? Can in fact one's perception of max expenditure be changed over time with increased fitness to indeed allow a change in perceived MHR?"

But in this case the elevation gain is less than 10 ft so I think the peaks are actually coinciding with periods of exertion i.e. points at which I am having to drastically having to alter my effort so that I can hang on to the passing group that is going 5mph faster than me.

As far as the 98-210 in one minute. That was during the first lap of a crit. First lap is an all out sprint to jockey for position so I went from standing to going all out in less than a minute. I think that is very possible for my HR to do so. If you'd like to see other examples of this I can show every single crit race i've done where my HR goes from around 100 bpm to my max in the first lap or so.

I truly believe the 219 could be and probably is a freak reading however the original question was "Is it possible for my max HR to change over time?" I think however I've answered it for myself in the fact that my previous MHR was what I thought was my MHR and wasn't a true MHR. I'm assuming I've realized that I can suffer a little more pain and my MHR is probably a little over 200bpm which would make most of the peaks correct and that 219 is probably way off.


man, i thought that it was (m) not (ft). that would explain that a little more.

i have been in many crits with hrm and i understand the go from the gun atmosphere. maybe it is just me, but my heart rate does not shoot up from that low that quickly. oh well.

i don't at all think it is unreasonable to have a max of 202-215 for your age. mine is probably around the lower end of that spectrum and i am 24. but to see a reading of 219, i think you are correct in recognizing that number as a misreading. the fact that you got such a high number makes me somewhat skeptical of the other numbers. again, i am not trying to shoot you down and tell you your numbers are wrong, merely identifying what you seem to already see yourself, that the 219 number is whack.

^^^word

as far as the HR shooting up at the beginning from 98 to so 200 plus so quickly. I had been standing there for 20 minutes so my HR unfortunately had been dropping so I went from almost completely relaxed to completely taxed in the first lap which is common for me. Usually however I get to the line with a HR around 130bpm and it jumps to about 190 bpm in the first lap.

Do you have access to the raw data or just the graph? The reason I ask is that graph looks "smoothed". My HRM lets me export a file that shows my HR every 2 seconds. That data would tell you if there was one bogus point or if there were a number of samples leading up to the 216 number.

Here is a graph from sport tracks that has the data sampled every 1 second and it still looks like my HR runs over 200bpm from about the 4:45 to about 6m

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b96/chrisvu05/unsmoothedCritHr.jpg

Max HR is a theoretical number. It cannot be increased on decreased, unlike an mechnical engine than can be dyno'd until it pops - you don't want to try this.

No.

It's genetically predetermined. That your heart rate went "over" what you thought your max was indicates that you haven't established your real max HR.

You can keep your max HR from declining with age, as what shows on a graph on your club's treadmills, ellipticals, and bikes, but you can't increase it.

I suggest being tested at a university; they have the equipment and qualified staff to do the job right.

220-your age is not the be-all and end-all.

Any feedback?

Your MHR is/was not 197. The 216 was a malfunction of your HRM.

... Brad

Agreed, and 42 bpm resting sounds a bit low too...

Agreed, and 42 bpm resting sounds a bit low too...

Why would you say that? 42 isn't even beginning to be really low...

Is there some age, assuming that you are coming from a lifetime of good fitness to begin with, where you need to start thinking about not maxing out your heart rate for fear of having a heart attack? Has anyone heard of older Masters racers just keeling over and dieing? I remember reading about an older Elite runner, late 50s or early 60s I believe, who had done the Pikes Peak run in Colorado many times before, and then the last time he did it, he had a heart attack and died.

Hmmm. Maybe I should take the question to the 50 plus forum.

Why would you say that? 42 isn't even beginning to be really low...

+1

At night I can coax my heart rate down to 38 bpm. Upon waking before my first cup of coffee, it's even lower.

Is there some age, assuming that you are coming from a lifetime of good fitness to begin with, where you need to start thinking about not maxing out your heart rate for fear of having a heart attack? Has anyone heard of older Masters racers just keeling over and dieing? I remember reading about an older Elite runner, late 50s or early 60s I believe, who had done the Pikes Peak run in Colorado many times before, and then the last time he did it, he had a heart attack and died.

Hmmm. Maybe I should take the question to the 50 plus forum.

The short answer to your first question is: No

People of many ages die of Sudden Cardiac Failure. I think generally it is caused by a problem in the heart's electrical system or a long standing abnormality the person just didn't know about, or couldn't be repaired. The electrical system relies on proper levels of electrolytes like potassium. Get it out of limits, like in dehydration or over hydration, and it can cause the heart not to pump blood. There are other detailed factors. Do some research and you can get educated in short order.

Have you had an event that causes you concern? Or, are you a member of the Worried Well? Or, maybe just discovered that you are not immortal? Depending, your worry can be pretty normal I would think.

Okay Chris. I will go against the masses and tell you that you have a new HR max of somewhere between 216 and 219. I have the 305 and like other HR readers I get the odd spike, but never is it more than a second or two. Your gradual rise up and decline suggests to me it is real. A couple more observations.
1) You are far more likely to see a max HR early in a race when you are not properly warmed up
2) You are more likely to see a max HR when you are somewhat fresh. i.e. not off the back of a hard training period

Point 1) agrees with when your reading is. You know the answer to 2).

What worries me about your readings is that I am not so sure you are as fit as you may like to believe. That is one hell of a spread from min to max and also in the race. My guess is that you lack aerobic conditioning, but have plenty of muscle that can run your cardiovascular system into dangerous areas...get some base training done.

While we're on heart rates, mine is quite odd. My resting rate is generally somewhere in the high 50's, but when I exercise it goes quite high. In a crit it commonly gets up into the high 190's. During the Hunny Bop crit a few weeks ago (very hot day) I had to redline to bridge back up after a crash gapped me. My HR got into the high 190's from that effort, then slowly crept up to 207-209 and stayed there for the last 6 minutes or so (this was the Cat 5 race, so we just did what we are known best for - ride around fast in one stupid pack so there wasn't much opportunity to recover). On the last lap it maintained at 212. I didn't go for the sprint, as I was afraid I would find that theoretical max HR.

My HR recovers well when I back off, but I'm wondering if having such a high HR is something I should worry about. I'm 34, ftr.

isn't it hard to do heading into a corner at 30 mph?

http://www.la.ngb.army.mil/eprp/EPRP/doc%20photos/Pulse%20wrist.jpg

Yeah. Definitely go with the one hand on the neck technique. Much safer.

Agreed, and 42 bpm resting sounds a bit low too...

um...no. My RHR is in the low 40s. My father is 60 years old and does not participate in any sports except lawn maintenance and his RHR is in the low 50s. I think the low RHR is partially genetic and partially fitness.

While we're on heart rates, mine is quite odd. My resting rate is generally somewhere in the high 50's, but when I exercise it goes quite high. In a crit it commonly gets up into the high 190's. During the Hunny Bop crit a few weeks ago (very hot day) I had to redline to bridge back up after a crash gapped me. My HR got into the high 190's from that effort, then slowly crept up to 207-209 and stayed there for the last 6 minutes or so (this was the Cat 5 race, so we just did what we are known best for - ride around fast in one stupid pack so there wasn't much opportunity to recover). On the last lap it maintained at 212. I didn't go for the sprint, as I was afraid I would find that theoretical max HR.

My HR recovers well when I back off, but I'm wondering if having such a high HR is something I should worry about. I'm 34, ftr.

Why would you be monitoring your HR in the middle of a race?

This is like the guy you hear about in breaks that has his HRM set to beep when ever he goes above a certain threshold. Not only does it not matter, but it holds you back. And if people see you checking your HRM all the time, or hear it going off, they're going to attack until you DO hit that max HR.

My computer was displaying power, speed, and HR. I wasn't checking it on a regular basis, but noticed it with one lap to go. The data I'm citing isn't from my observations during the race, but rather from the download afterward.

my download goes something like this

damn, that was hard. I
a) had nothing left
b) had a little left

The short answer to your first question is: No

People of many ages die of Sudden Cardiac Failure. I think generally it is caused by a problem in the heart's electrical system or a long standing abnormality the person just didn't know about, or couldn't be repaired. The electrical system relies on proper levels of electrolytes like potassium. Get it out of limits, like in dehydration or over hydration, and it can cause the heart not to pump blood. There are other detailed factors. Do some research and you can get educated in short order.

Have you had an event that causes you concern? Or, are you a member of the Worried Well? Or, maybe just discovered that you are not immortal? Depending, your worry can be pretty normal I would think.

I was wondering whether completely anaerobic, sprint, race finishes at maximum effort start to be a little dicey or unsafe for your heart at some age. You are working your heart like crazy with no oxygen feeding it---seems like at some point in life your motor may not take kindly to that anymore. Mechanical motors wear out and quit with hard use, why wouldn't your heart?

if you sprint too hard you could die.

I was wondering whether completely anaerobic, sprint, race finishes at maximum effort start to be a little dicey or unsafe for your heart at some age. You are working your heart like crazy with no oxygen feeding it---seems like at some point in life your motor may not take kindly to that anymore. Mechanical motors wear out and quit with hard use, why wouldn't your heart?

Because your heart is not a mechanical motor. It is a sophisticated muscle with its' own supporting and enervating systems. Actually, like the rest of our muscles; unless diseased it responds quite nicely to heavy use.

Lots of sources on the internet. Go searching some of the caridiology sites. I know, it takes some effort. But the effort is worth it.