Classic & Vintage - Garage Sale Find: 80s Centurion Ironman - help ID (photo included)

(Comments on what might be worth replacing or other ideas are welcome)

I went looking for a bike at local garage sales last weekend and had a great find after checking just 3 places:

A Japanese-made Centurion Master Ironman Dave Scott of 1980s vintage. I'm not sure exactly what year - maybe someone can help identify that based on color scheme and components.

My plan is to convert it to fixed-gear or a flipflop hub. I'm also pondering whether to keep the original paint job or spray it to a single tone. Right now, the bike weighs under 20 pounds :)

Components when bought:
Frame: Tange Champion #1 (CR-MO double-butted steel). Forged dropouts.
Gears: Shimano 600 SL-6400 M5
Brakes: Shimano SLR.
Stem: Nitto B115 420
Pedals: "Look" brand metal clip pedals
Chainwheel: Shimano Biopace
Hubs: Shimano 600 w/ quick release
Front Rim: Araya CTL-370
Rear Rim: Mavic MA-40
Seapost: Sugino SP-K
Saddle: "Champion" brand. Far from the best. This will be the first thing to go.

Oh yeah! Very very nice. BTW, I think the chain should be the first thing to go, looks sort of rusty, don't try to salvage, it's not worth it. But I think you're right the saddle is old and tired. Still, a beautiful find. Is it a six speed rear?

Oh, absolutely - I was going to scrap the chain. Any particular brand/size it should be replaced with?

And it's 7-speed, I think. How can I tell? I know that's an awfully dumb question, but despite riding thousands of kms on bikes, I know next to nothing about them. This is the year I finally learn, I think ...

you know, someday (maybe next week) all the kids are going to just go nuts for these wacky '80s New Wave paint schemes and graphics...then you'll really be sorry if you painted over this one with flat black or sumthin'.
It's a fine bike (BTW, Tange #1 is not *stainless* steel) with a fine mix of components (except the saddle,as you say, and maybe the Biopace rings). If it were me I wouldn't change hardly a thing on it and I'd look for an older frame (with 120mm rear spacing and long slot dropouts) if I wanted to make a fixie...I'm just sayin'.
Edit: count the cogs on the back wheel: 6 or 7? Also, on second look that might just be a saddle cover over a Turbo or Turbo-copy...might be a decent saddle after-all.

to tell how many speeds a bicycle has, count the number of sprockets on the rear wheel. then multiply this number by the number of chainrings on the crank. for example, a 14speed bike would have 2 front chainrings and 7 rear sprockets. 2*7=14


good score.

Vim or rubbing alcohol will clean up the brake hoods nicely. Great looking bike.

to tell how many speeds a bicycle has, count the number of sprockets on the rear wheel. then multiply this number by the number of chainrings on the crank. for example, a 14speed bike would have 2 front chainrings and 7 rear sprockets. 2*7=14
that's exactly it for this one. 2 font and 7 sprockets.


good score.
thanks!

I wouldn't change hardly a thing on it and I'd look for an older frame (with 120mm rear spacing and long slot dropouts) if I wanted to make a fixie
another newbie question ... what spacing are you talking about? the rear fork?
if yes, it's about 150mm on this one. does that make it too wide for fixed-gear use?

Also, on second look that might just be a saddle cover over a Turbo or Turbo-copy...might be a decent saddle after-all.Sorry, forgot to mention that it is a 1987 dark Turbo saddle underneath. Not my cup of tea though ... just doesn't feel right somehow.

And if you like it the way it is, overhaul headset, BB, hub
and pedal bearings. It deserves it and you'll like it even
more as it is.BB is back brake?

My plan is to convert it to fixed-gear or a flipflop hub. I'm also pondering whether to keep the original paint job or spray it to a single tone. Right now, the bike weighs under 20 pounds

Terrible idea IMHO, that's an awesome bike. BUT, if you don't want your brakes, I'll buy'em off you. :thumb:

Seems like the fixed-gear convo was indeed a dumb idea. Maybe I'll do that in the future to another, cheaper/heavier frame :)

I have an old Centurion too. Same year, but the Expert version.

Now it's a modern commuter with a 10s Veloce group. :)

Patiot, we meet again!

The face lift in question is a Centurion Expert. It will have some upgrades and updates after the face lift such as 105 triple (replaces a current TruVativ triple), and an Ultegra RD to go along with the already installed Brifters.

For the OP, doing a fixtie on that bike would be a real trajedy to most of us. I think you're on the right track with finding another frame to convert.

dubesor, 7 speed chain is very common. If you can find one, I like the SRAM PC-68, that's a nice replacement. It's polished and looks really good when clean.

dubesor, 7 speed chain is very common. If you can find one, I like the SRAM PC-68, that's a nice replacement. It's polished and looks really good when clean.
and how much should i pay for one? i personally would guess no more than $20.

geez don't let people tell you what to do with your bike. the main idea is to set it up so you'll ride it often and get the most enjoyment out of it. if you decide to go fixed or single speed its VERY easy to go back to geared later - just keep all your original parts. i just got a pristine small centurion ironman master for my girl and converted it to single speed and she loves it - rides it all the time. light enough for her to carry it up and down 3 flights of stairs. you don't need to wait for a cheaper heavier frame to try fixed since that would only make your first experience feel well, heavy and cheap. by all means ride it around geared for awhile and you can always convert if you feel like it. its a very decent bike - have fun!!!

Nice find! How much did you pay for it?

My old eyes may be deceiving me, but are those chainrings in the correct position, or are they off by one bolt?

Hmm, an Ironman, in purple fade. PM sent.

and how much should i pay for one? i personally would guess no more than $20.

A little more than $20. You can get the PC-58 for aobut $20, not quite as nice as the PC-68. My guess is a PC-68 is around $25-30. It's been over a year since I bought one.

Great find and a great bike. Those frames are really sweet riding- you should enjoy it for years. Personally, I'd keep the rad purple/white paint job. Have fun.

Ashley pretty much filled you in on the bike, and he's the one to do it. Since I have two of the '89 Masters, I can tell you a bit.

The bike is excellent quality, and can be upgraded easily to perform with anything out there, plus you can say "steel is real" when asked. Despite claims currently on eBay that these were $1500 new, they were not, but that hardly matters today.

The best thing you can do if you keep the bike is take it apart, clean each component, lube where needed, and put it back together.

That particular model has Shimano 600 (tricolor) hubs, which can be disassembled, examined, repacked, and will spin like new, and you should do this regardless of how well preserved you think they are. The spokes can be cleaned, along with the rims, which are extremely light, but will need to be trued regularly if you ride on rough pavement.

You should also have the bottom bracket cleaned and repacked, new ball bearings if necessary, or just buy a new square taper Shimano BB. I think I paid 16.95 at my bike shop for a new one. Moisture tends to collect in this area and can rust the bearings and other stuff in there.

Then, the headset. It's probably dry as a bone, so that should be repacked.

All of the above are minor, and necessary maintenance.

You should also clean and lube the shifters, front derailleur, and rear derailleur. I take them off and take them apart, but that's just me; I feel the bike deserves it. Then, turn the bike over and make sure no gunk has built up under the bike where the shifter cables run.

I don't know about that saddle. It's your derriere. You'd likely need bar tape and after you clean and lube the brake levers, pick a color. You can polish part of the bars and all of the stem, but it's a lot easier if you disassemble them, too.

Those tires are hard as wood, but it's your call. If you don't replace them now, you will if you ride the bike anywhere other than smooth roads.

Nice bike, and if you don't feel like the rehab on it, I'll buy it, price depending.

The advice you get here on BF Classic & Vintage is spot-on, except mine, which you should understand is blatantly subjective when it comes to Ironman bikes. Remember, Dave Scott won all those Ironmans by training about 20 hours a week. No one else can say that, so the Ironman bike sort of carries that mojo...capable, competent, effective, but no big deal. There are prettier belles at the ball, but few deliver. (maybe that's not a good analogy...):D

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!

There's not a whole lot of serious work to be done on this one and I will do it gradually, learning more about cleaning/tuning bikes as I go along. It definitely is a light and sweet ride, even with the (so far) minimal attention I've paid it, that ol' rusty chain, and old tires.

What kind of 700c tires should I be looking for? Any suggestions for what would work well with these Araya/Mavic rims, look good, and have a smooth tread? I will do mainly stop-and-go commuter cycling with this one, in city traffic.

Also, you can confirm your bike's MANUFACTURE year by
checking its serial number, stamped on the underside of
the BB (bottom bracket). It will probably start with an N
and be followed by a number, probably 9 as in 1989 and
then another letter, the fortnight code (ie. A=1st two
weeks of January; B=next two weeks, et al). It is possible
your bike has a late 1988 serial number but while that
would indicate it was MANUFACTURED in 1988, the marble
fade paint scheme makes it a 1989 MODEL.
Strangely, the serial # from the bottom bracket begins with N8B - which puts the manufacture in early 1988, but I guess it's still a 1989 model.

I vote no for fixie as well. Find a ragged out bike to build a fixie from. That one is nearly perfect shape, and way too sharp to be messing with. Hopefully the fad will die soon, and vintage bikes will once again be safe from the grinder and horrendous paint.,,,,BD

We weren't telling him what to do with the bike, we were persuading him from turning it into a pink and purple monstrosity. There' a difference.

I vote no for fixie as well. Find a ragged out bike to build a fixie from. That one is nearly perfect shape, and way too sharp to be messing with. Hopefully the fad will die soon, and vintage bikes will once again be safe from the grinder and horrendous paint.,,,,BD

We weren't telling him what to do with the bike, we were persuading him from turning it into a pink and purple monstrosity. There' a difference.
+1 w/Bikedued above.

Bikes like yours make it possible for people to get into riding without spending a grand on an entry-level bike. They fill a market slot no manufacturer wants.

There are scads of frames better suited for single speed / fixie conversion, especially the later chrome-moly frames that had stem shifters. They're less encumbered with braze-on shifter brackets, and often have stickers over the clear coat, which makes them easy to "clean" and give the bike a leaner look. The nice thing is, these bikes are often just a step away from, or already in, a dumpster, so they're cheap and fairly easy to find.

Tires? Leave the red/yellow/blue striped race tires on the shelf, chances are this bike has flat sided rims
so they would slip off and blow the tube within a mile or two. If it were me I would get something very tough. I do the same type of riding every day, but no one seems to carry but one brand of steel bead
tires around here. They're Serfas Secas, which up until recently had proved to be indestructible. I got
a cut the other day and a set of tire liners went in.

I've had really good luck with Bontrager Race Lites. Good flat protection, and have extra rubber around the bead to help reduce pinch flats. There are more expensive ones too of course. Search tires and a million threads should pop up. Most important though, check the rim to see what kind it is. Some are hooked on the inside edge. Those can "usually" hold a folding bead tire. Some rims have a flat side, which pretty much means steel bead tires only in my personal experience. Some just have a bump along the outer rim. I usually keep steel bead on those just to be safe.

Having a tire slip off the rim is NOT fun, especially on bikes with tight clearance on the brakes and fork. The tube blowing up isn't all that bad, but sometimes they only partially slip off the rim, acting as a brake usually at the worst possible time;).,,,,BD

Tires? Leave the red/yellow/blue striped race tires on the shelf...
...I've had really good luck with Bontrager Race Lites....
...Having a tire slip off the rim is NOT fun, especially on bikes with tight clearance on the brakes and fork. The tube blowing up isn't all that bad, but sometimes they only partially slip off the rim, acting as a brake usually at the worst possible time;).,,,,BD
He's right. I've got several sets of those rims. The folding tires don't hold that well on them, and are a pain to replace/repair. I moved to a sturdier road tire and was well served by Hutchinson HP-25 Profil 700x23's. A decent, middle of the road tire will work just fine. You go too light on those rims and you'll be truing them a lot, and wondering why your butt hurts, if you can keep them on the rim at 115 psi.

dubesor and Ashley,

I've not had any of those NEW light racing tires come off the Arayas once installed, but getting the bead to sit under the lip when mounting was a problem, and it took about 4 tries to inflate without slipping off. This doesn't occur when I use a sturdier road tire. I wouldn't want to change a flat on the side of the road with that problem on those thin new foldables.

I'm thinking the clincher lip on those ultralight tires is reduced to a minimum and doesn't grab the rim as well. I found little difference in clincher thickness on the rims themselves, no matter the brand.

The 1989 OEM Panaracer 700x18's had no problem. Old stuff simply works.

.
But your bike, with its N8B... serial number is too early
to be a transitional 1988-89 model. So unless you have mid-
read the N8B, then I'm wrong and the marble fade must have
arrived at about the same time as the unmarbled fade.

Yep, definitely N8B540 (although the N is a little worn under the right gear cable).


PS - Did you count freeHUB cogs? If so, where there 6 or 7?
Your Shimano 600 shifters are SL-6400, I believe. That would
be 7-speed SIS (indexed). I don't think the Ironman models
switched from 12-speed to 14-speed until 1989. I'm not
absolutely sure of this but I've only seen 1989 examples
with 14-speed setups (ie. 7-cogs x 2 chainrings = 14).
Again, definitely 7 cogs connected to 2 chainrings on the Biopace.

So, looks like it's a bit of an anomaly, which is even cooler :)

My two 89 Masters identical to his were 7-speeds.
My 89 Expert was was a 7-speed, also.

It appears at some point in that production run, Shimano went to 7-speed on the 600.
The Suntour GPX only came in 7-speed that I know of, per the literature on line.

It would make sense to have the Master model be 7 speeds if the Expert was, also.

I'm thinking that paint scheme was spec'd out for that production run, simply after the component upgrade.
This is born out by a recent Lemans RS on NYC craigslist in the same colors, 7-speed LX 100 equipped.
My Lemans RS is also that purple fade, and it also had the 7-sp LX 100.

I'd venture they were intended to be sold as '89's, regardless of production date in earlier '88.

This era was fully into "just-in-time" manufacturing processes, and many times, the supply chain dictated the end product. Shipping was cheap and taken for granted, and they maybe got ahead of schedule.

These days, we're seeing a real difference. Many bike shops can order 30 bikes, and they'll be lucky to see 10 in 3 months, especially smaller shops.

Tires? Leave the red/yellow/blue striped race tires on the shelf, chances are this bike has flat sided rims so they would slip off and blow the tube within a mile or two. If it were me I would get something very tough. I do the same type of riding every day, but no one seems to carry but one brand of steel bead tires around here. They're Serfas Secas, which up until recently had proved to be indestructible. I got a cut the other day and a set of tire liners went in.
Yeah, maybe having colorful wheels on this already bright number is not the best thing. I have the Serfas Secas in a 27x1.1/4 size on another bike and they've served me really well. I think they're also fairly inexpensive.

Yeah, maybe having colorful wheels on this already bright number is not the best thing. I have the Serfas Secas in a 27x1.1/4 size on another bike and they've served me really well. I think they're also fairly inexpensive.Some of the gumwall-style tires look good against that particular rim, make a nice contrast. Hutchinson, Forte, others make a cheaper model.

I just saw some Michelin Dynamics at Performance for $10. All black.
BigBossMan told me they were worth that, at best. He was right on.
But they are cheap.

If it's any help, this Ironman was originally $100 on eFray, pre-buildup.
I think the tires were over $80 shipped.
It's all relatively crazy.
'tis why we do it.
:D

Some of the gumwall-style tires look good against that particular rim, make a nice contrast. Hutchinson, Forte, others make a cheaper model.

I just saw some Michelin Dynamics at Performance for $10. All black.
BigBossMan told me they were worth that, at best. He was right on.
But they are cheap.
:D
I ended up not replacing the tires for now, just got new tubes and a sturdy tire liner for the back wheel. But still thinking about bright wheels :)

Oh and one more thing ... quick-release. Right now, the QR is on both back and front. I find that scary - someone will jack my wheels ASAP.

I can't really be bothered taking that stuff off and putting it back each time I drop by the corner store or work or w/ever. And I know having solid nuts makes it slightly less attractive for thieves. + being a total noob, putting the wheels back myself resulted in some shifting & rubbing against the fork. oy vey.

So anyway, any advice for era-appropriate and/or nice looking nuts? Or just get whatever the LBS has? Will I need to change the axle from hollow too?

http://www.nashbar.com/nashbar_photos/250/NS-BOS-K-ANGLE.jpg (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=&sku=8197&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Show%20All%20Products)
$10 at Nashbar (click the pic), or check your LBS

Thx for the advice on those. Got offered something very similar for $10 at LBS. So I will get them installed tomorrow.

What about the thickness? I like 700x20, but they're a rough ride on cobblestone & potholes.

Am I right to assume that having slightly thicker tires = not having to re-inflate the tires and true the rims as much?

??

narrower tires simply means less rolling resistance, more PSI, more likely to flat and rim damage in case of severe impacts.

Depending on the surface and purpose of the bike, ie. general city commuting...
25-28mm cross section tires will be more survivable and more comfortable.

For normal riding, I like whatever 700x23 is reasonably on sale.
I'll go into withdrawal when my Vittorio Open Chrono 700x18's wear out, though.

If you're talking about the skinny Panaracers that came on that Ironman, be careful.
I don't think those 700x18 or 700x19 tires, 20 years old, will take the 115 psi that long.

For commuting, WNG is right on, a 25-28 is more of a sturdy boot, and won't rattle your teeth.

For normal riding, I like whatever 700x23 is reasonably on sale.
I'll go into withdrawal when my Vittorio Open Chrono 700x18's wear out, though.

If you're talking about the skinny Panaracers that came on that Ironman, be careful.
I don't think those 700x18 or 700x19 tires, 20 years old, will take the 115 psi that long.

For commuting, WNG is right on, a 25-28 is more of a sturdy boot, and won't rattle your teeth.
They're not Panacers - I forget the actual brand. Both tires are 700x20. LBS staff looked at them (on more than one occasion) and declared them passable, FWIW. All deflation troubles were solved with new tubes and tire liners. The tires *are* old and not ridden for a while, but don't show all that much damage.

Regardless, I agree they'll need replacing soon. I guess even 700x20s are more for those century-ride-on-new-tarmac situations :(

If LBS passes them, I'd say they're OK, and if LBS skipped that opportunity to sell you some new ones, I'd say LBS is OK, too.

I've got some generic brand 700x20's on my Ti build, and they are old "new" tires. They're doing fine, but they don't exactly inspire confidence at that downhill T intersection.

I've got a 700x20 Fusion Pro on my Cinelli front; it's hard as a rock but handles well. I got it 1/2 price because every one LBS sold ended up coming back.

I'll miss the 18-20 wide tires when mine finally wear out, but as you'll see in other threads, the actual width vs. the stated width varies somewhat, and you just end up going for a good tire in the long run.

If LBS passes them, I'd say they're OK, and if LBS skipped that opportunity to sell you some new ones, I'd say LBS is OK, too.
I'll just take a moment to plug the LBS. I don't work for them, but they're just awesome. It's sort of a bike co-op (largely volunteer run and has a sliding-scale chage for help & advice). It's called Our Community Bikes and is based here in Vancouver. Pretty much everything they do is to help out the riders so they always give good, honest tips.

Also just found locally a Centurion LeMans RS in the same fade paint job (so probably same model year). Going to buy it for my friend. I love these Centurions. I can see why some of you have a bunch of them.

Thx for the advice on those. Got offered something very similar for $10 at LBS. So I will get them installed tomorrow.

Stick some removable goop - silicon would do - into the hex hole. Discourages thieves, and you can always pull it out if you need to replace a tube on the go.

-Kurt

Also just found locally a Centurion LeMans RS in the same fade paint job (so probably same model year). Going to buy it for my friend. I love these Centurions. I can see why some of you have a bunch of them.

We'd have more if the word hadn't gotten out.....:innocent:

Stick some removable goop - silicon would do - into the hex hole. Discourages thieves, and you can always pull it out if you need to replace a tube on the go.

-KurtBest place to put your gum.

There was mention of tires blowing off "flat sided" rims.
Both your rims, the original Araya and the Mavic MA-40,
are NOT flat-sided. They are excellent quality '80s
hooked bead rims and will take any modern 700C tire
with a standard wire bead. I've got Araya and Mavic
MA-40 wheelsets from the '80s and haven't had a tire
blow off those rims yet and I ride every day, year
'round, about 315-325 days a year when subtracting
bad rain, snow\ice days and a month in Asia each year.
.
Of my six Centurions, two have new tires on them (one
set of modern tubulars and a NOS mid-80s set of clinchers)
and four have their original wheels, tires and tubes
from the mid-80s.
.
Sheldon Brown's tires\tubes article suggests that old
tires are fine if the tread is OK and the sidewalls
are not disfigured or otherwise showing serious signs
of deterioration. His comments on this subject are at
the end of his article at.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
.

Thanks for the advice! With what you said in mind, here are some tires I'm considering (listed most expensive to cheapest). Would I have extra trouble mounting any of these on my Araya/Mavic rims? Or changing them if they go flat?

Hutchinson Fusion 2 Tour de France - $30 per tire
Vredestein Fortezza SE
Continental Ultra Gatorskin
Vittoria Rubino Pro - I like the all white option
Vittoria Zaffiro Pro
Vittoria Rubino - may be buying a few sets: they're only $12 per tire
Forte GT2 Kevlar - likely buying a few sets: they're only $11 each; these also seem to be the cheapest sort-of-reliable 27" tire around for those older bikes.

Are the Hutchinson & Vredestein tires at the top really that much better to warrant 2x-3x the price of the Forte & Vittoria tires at the end of the list?

Right now, I'm really struggling with flats. My bikes are sitting around unused as I've decided the trouble is in the tires. The 1980s 700x18s tires keep flatting, which I put down to the age of the tires and how thin they are. After all these flats, I was concerned about my riding style, but I doubt it's that - I ride fast and hard, but use mainly smooth roads and 2-lane bike paths; I weigh in the neighborhood of 165-170 so I doubt it's my weight either.

My other Centurion's old 27"x1.25 tires seem to have the same problem, which I would guess is due to the tire age as well. I'll probably throw a couple Forte tires mentioned above on this one as they seem to be some of the only affordable and reliable 27" tires around.