Tour de France - stage 17 - Embrun L'Alpe-d'Huez 210.5 km Spoiler

So I guess CSC looked at who was the better time trialist and decided to go for him, on paper it works but I don't think Sastre got enough time.

Do you think they counted on Sastre getting more than 1:34????

yes

too bad about the the time VdV lost on the fall the day previous. That extra minute or two would have made it even more interesting. He is gonna have to really hustle on the ITT to make top 5. He's probably not gonna take back any time or at least minimal time on Mechov or Evans. 3 minutes on Kohl or Schleck? Gonna need some good fortune i think.

Guess CSC decided Sastre was the the better TT option than Frank. Got to put your eggs in some basket, and so they have.

maybe. but i think it came down to who was the better climber. who could put significant time into Evans on the last climb. later.

LoL

I wasn't joking.

http://cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/tour0817/bettiniphoto_0029425_1_full.jpg

http://cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour0817/bettiniphoto_0029425_1_full

Anyone know where I can find an elevation profile for todays stage? I thought I heard a Versus announcer this morning say something about 50,000 feet of gain over this route... which seems VERY excessive...

Anyone know where I can find an elevation profile for todays stage? I thought I heard a Versus announcer this morning say something about 50,000 feet of gain over this route... which seems VERY excessive...

in the first post of the thread?

looks more like 15,000 feet

Anyone know where I can find an elevation profile for todays stage? I thought I heard a Versus announcer this morning say something about 50,000 feet of gain over this route... which seems VERY excessive...


I've ridden all of todays climbs except the Croix de Fer. I'd guess the total elevation climbed today would be more in 12,000 -15,000 range.

If you looked up the total climb of the Marmott, ( aportif over much of the same terrain.) it would be pretty comparable.

While exciting, I'm not happy that the Tour will likely be won by a guy who made only one tiny attempt to attack... don't like the wheel sucker.

While I have noticed Evans' wheel-sucking as well, you can't really blame that on him today. Jeez, it was 3 CSCs against him on the final climb, each CSC arguably just as good if not better climbers than Evans. What was Evans to do, attack, attack, attack, to be chased down by Andy and Frank, then go into the red and lose even more time? He was really stuck between a rock and a hard place and I believe did the only thing he could...conserve, conserve, conserve, then bust a gut trying to limit his losses.

The REAL blame goes to Lotto management for not building a team around Evans, instead building it around aging and increasingly speedless McEwen. I didn't notice one Lotto guy around Evans on the final climb, at least not one doing any work. That's shameful for a GC contender, and every Lotto teammate of Evans should farkin' apologize to him for doing nothing...

JMHO,

Mark

The REAL blame goes to Lotto management for not building a team around Evans, instead building it around aging and increasingly speedless McEwen. I didn't notice one Lotto guy around Evans on the final climb, at least not one doing any work. That's shameful for a GC contender, and every Lotto teammate of Evans should farkin' apologize to him for doing nothing...



I agree. Evans survived against all of CSC. Nobody was in the leading breakaway today...Popovich should have been in today's break not yesterdays. Armstrong was never isolated day after day like this. I'm not much of an evans fan...kinda blah to me and he looks kinda weird (but not at wierd as schumacher and kohl)....but he is doing what he needs to do. Maybe lotto should have kept Chris Horner. He can carry guys on his back when he needs to.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2008/jul08/cascade08/cascade085/DSC03810

I know nothing about racing, but am following le tour. I tuned in late today and heard the announcers talk about how Sastre's victory was a team effort and I would like to understand how. It seems like he jumped out pretty early and the announcers said that when someone from the chase group attempted to catch him the Schleck's "took care of it". My question is just how did they take care of it? I somewhat understand the dynamics of the group, but I don't understand what exactly kept anyone from catching him.

Thanks

I know nothing about racing, but am following le tour. I tuned in late today and heard the announcers talk about how Sastre's victory was a team effort and I would like to understand how. It seems like he jumped out pretty early and the announcers said that when someone from the chase group attempted to catch him the Schleck's "took care of it". My question is just how did they take care of it? I somewhat understand the dynamics of the group, but I don't understand what exactly kept anyone from catching him.

Thanks

Allright. First CSC kept the pace high over the first 3 climbs, making the race hard, and causing other teams to lose support riders from the front of the group, and take some steam out of the other riders.

Notice that when they got to the final climb, CSC had both Schlecks, and Sastre. Evan had only himself.

Then Evans had to decide who tomark and who to let go. Calculating he could limit his losses and make up ground in the final TT he let Sastre go and marked Frank Schleck.

Then the Schlecks disrupted Evans rhythm. Evans would prefer to climb at one steady tempo. Instead, one Schleck or the other would accelerate in an attack, get caught, then sit up. So the constant attacks, disrupted Evan's rythym, and actually slowed the overall pace of the chase group(as evidenced by the fact that Menchov was able to regroup and join back on.)

What the Schlecks did was actually textbook "blocking" You don't physically obstruct the chase group. Rather by attacking, and then easing up repeatedly you disrupt the chase group.

Hope that helps.

go sastre

i would only begrudgingly accept cadel winning the tour if he wins a stage (i guess thats going to be the TT if at all) i never think of a true tdf winner without a stage win
but then like everyone else i like to see attacking riding (always kinda annoyed me about indurain although he did win stages)

Allright. First CSC kept the pace high over the first 3 climbs, making the race hard, and causing other teams to lose support riders from the front of the group, and take some steam out of the other riders.

Notice that when they got to the final climb, CSC had both Schlecks, and Sastre. Evan had only himself.

Then Evans had to decide who tomark and who to let go. Calculating he could limit his losses and make up ground in the final TT he let Sastre go and marked Frank Schleck.

Then the Schlecks disrupted Evans rhythm. Evans would prefer to climb at one steady tempo. Instead, one Schleck or the other would accelerate in an attack, get caught, then sit up. So the constant attacks, disrupted Evan's rythym, and actually slowed the overall pace of the chase group(as evidenced by the fact that Menchov was able to regroup and join back on.)

What the Schlecks did was actually textbook "blocking" You don't physically obstruct the chase group. Rather by attacking, and then easing up repeatedly you disrupt the chase group.

Hope that helps.

I agree, it was well done by CSC. Evans is a stronger rider than the others overall, but he's a bit like Ullrich in that he likes to go at a steady pace uphill. CSC played it well. Had Frank attacked instead of Carlos at the bottom of the Alpe d'Huez, Evans would have had no choice but to mark him. And had Evans responded to Carlos, he could have spent himself chasing and paid for it half way up. So he stayed with Frank and Kohl.

Finally you saw Evans uncharacteristically take control of the situation and controll the group to limit his time loss to Sastre, at which point the Schlecks couldn't do that much about it, but I think CSC did about as much damage as they could against someone so solid.

Finally you saw Evans uncharacteristically take control of the situation and controll the group to limit his time loss to Sastre, at which point the Schlecks couldn't do that much about it, but I think CSC did about as much damage as they could against someone so solid.

What so uncharacteristic about this? Can you think of another time where Evans refused to work to catch someone he needed to?

What so uncharacteristic about this? Can you think of another time where Evans refused to work to catch someone he needed to?

"Work" as in pulling or setting the pace of a group is uncharateristic for Evans. Of course he's chased down riders before but my point was that it was unusual to see him jump to the front of the yellow jersey group.

to me it appeared he was chasing today too.

Cadel did what he could and in a way, he succeeded since he will probably be dominant in TT. I guess we'll see how it goes. But pretty exciting strategy by CSC.

The only thing I didn't understand about CSC's tactics was Andy Schleck chasing down someone like Valjevec. A couple kilometers to go, Valjevec is 10:00 down on GC, he's certainly no threat, and all I could see happening was Andy towing Cadel and VDV back closer to Sastre. Other than that, they did a pretty good job. Originally I was hoping Sastre would go on the Croix de Fer, but even if he had hooked up with Vilets, he would have burned a lot of energy crossing the valley to Bourg d'Oison (sp?) and probably would have had a lot less left to increase his lead on the Alp. I guess he really played it the best way he could.

Anyone hear of his time for the ascent of the Alp and how close was it to Pantani's record?

Did historical Alpe d'Huez stages usually include Galibier and Croix de Fer? For some reason I thought it was usually a flatter run up to the HC climb at the end.

Anyone hear of his time for the ascent of the Alp and how close was it to Pantani's record?

39 minutes and change

The only thing I didn't understand about CSC's tactics was Andy Schleck chasing down someone like Valjevec. A couple kilometers to go, Valjevec is 10:00 down on GC, he's certainly no threat, and all I could see happening was Andy towing Cadel and VDV back closer to Sastre. Other than that, they did a pretty good job. Originally I was hoping Sastre would go on the Croix de Fer, but even if he had hooked up with Vilets, he would have burned a lot of energy crossing the valley to Bourg d'Oison (sp?) and probably would have had a lot less left to increase his lead on the Alp. I guess he really played it the best way he could.

Anyone hear of his time for the ascent of the Alp and how close was it to Pantani's record?

I was wondering myself what was going through Andy's mind at that point.

Sastre 39:29 min for the last 13,8 km
Marco Pantani 37:35 min in 1997 ;)

close! I know he'd be retired now if he was still alive, but sometimes, on stages like this, i really miss pantani...i miss seeing his bald head shining in the peloton, and the skull and crossbones flags flying...although his name is always painted everywhere.

well i guess it wouldn't have been a huge leap anyways, but i was right about sammy sanchez...came in second. I said watch the basques- that team hasn't had much success yet in the tour and they'd be motivated.

The only thing I didn't understand about CSC's tactics was Andy Schleck chasing down someone like Valjevec. A couple kilometers to go, Valjevec is 10:00 down on GC, he's certainly no threat, and all I could see happening was Andy towing Cadel and VDV back closer to Sastre. Other than that, they did a pretty good job. Originally I was hoping Sastre would go on the Croix de Fer, but even if he had hooked up with Vilets, he would have burned a lot of energy crossing the valley to Bourg d'Oison (sp?) and probably would have had a lot less left to increase his lead on the Alp. I guess he really played it the best way he could.

Anyone hear of his time for the ascent of the Alp and how close was it to Pantani's record?

Great point. I didn't get it either. Anyway I thought Evans rode quite well today and did what he needed to do to limit his loses.

I'm still surprised CSC didn't brow beat Evans in yesterday's stage. Any time advantage over that last climb probably would have stuck with that tricky descent an all.

CSC can drive as hard as they want tomorrow, they won't take time on Evans on those puny climbs.

Great point. I didn't get it either. Anyway I thought Evans rode quite well today and did what he needed to do to limit his loses.

I think Cadel had that "time" in his head that he could allow Sastre, and for my money it was 2 minutes. His DS in the car was surely yelling "Sastre has 2 minutes, you gotta go!" in his earpiece. And you could see Cadel was on the limit in the last 2-3 kilometers, barely holding that 2 minutes and not really gaining much back. He played it smart, he could have punched it at the bottom and then really blown up in the last half and lost maybe 4 minutes instead!

Allright. First CSC kept the pace high over the first 3 climbs, making the race hard, and causing other teams to lose support riders from the front of the group, and take some steam out of the other riders.

Notice that when they got to the final climb, CSC had both Schlecks, and Sastre. Evan had only himself.

Then Evans had to decide who tomark and who to let go. Calculating he could limit his losses and make up ground in the final TT he let Sastre go and marked Frank Schleck.

Then the Schlecks disrupted Evans rhythm. Evans would prefer to climb at one steady tempo. Instead, one Schleck or the other would accelerate in an attack, get caught, then sit up. So the constant attacks, disrupted Evan's rythym, and actually slowed the overall pace of the chase group(as evidenced by the fact that Menchov was able to regroup and join back on.)

What the Schlecks did was actually textbook "blocking" You don't physically obstruct the chase group. Rather by attacking, and then easing up repeatedly you disrupt the chase group.

Hope that helps.

very well said. every cat 3 and cat 4 amateur team that thinks blocking is clogging up the road gutter to gutter should watch todays stage, read your post, and learn from it.

Please? Maybe we should include it in our conference meeting next year... got tired of Navy, Wake and Pfeiffer riders clogging the front this year.

I wasn't joking.

http://cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/tour0817/bettiniphoto_0029425_1_full.jpg

http://cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour0817/bettiniphoto_0029425_1_full

My gosh, I had NO idea Catherine Zeta-Jones could age a man like that - Michael Douglas looks positively "geezer-ancient" in that photo.

For all the attacks and pacing CSC did in the mountains (and I give them credit for incredible team strength and depth), and with almost zero team help for Cadel, I find it remarkable that Evans can still win this TdF with a good TT (he took 1:17 on Sastre in the first TT, and this next one is about 70% longer, so Cadel should be able to take 2+ minutes on Carlos this time, if the first one was any useful index).

OTOH, they've got one more stage with a climbing finish where more time gaps could theoretically be taken, making it possible it will come down to a gap of just seconds to win.

Did historical Alpe d'Huez stages usually include Galibier and Croix de Fer? For some reason I thought it was usually a flatter run up to the HC climb at the end.

Flatter?
Yes, the Galibier is usually included, and often either the Croix de Fer or else the Col du Glandon. Usually the stage goes in a different compass direction than today... usually they climb the Galibier on the more difficult, Telegraphe+Galibier combo side, which is immediately followed by l'Alpe at the end. The Croix de Fer was climbed over the more difficult side on this occasion.

Yes, the Galibier is usually included, and often either the Croix de Fer or else the Col du Glandon. Usually the stage goes in a different compass direction than today... usually they climb the Galibier on the more difficult, Telegraphe+Galibier combo side, which is immediately followed by l'Alpe at the end. The Croix de Fer was climbed over the more difficult side on this occasion.

That's another thing I love about the TdF - these classic mountains are often in the tour (and kudos to Lemond/Trek for putting the names of some of those classic mountains on its bike models to help make them more familiar, even for us lazy Americans), but from a different direction or sequence, so it's familiar, but still different nearly every time.

Awesome stage today. Just awesome.

The REAL blame goes to Lotto management for not building a team around Evans, instead building it around aging and increasingly speedless McEwen. I didn't notice one Lotto guy around Evans on the final climb, at least not one doing any work. That's shameful for a GC contender, and every Lotto teammate of Evans should farkin' apologize to him for doing nothing...


This I don't quite get... Again and again Robbie (who historically has an awesome list of stage wins, despite not being the out-and-out fastest sprinter) has had to try to make something out of nothing, support wise. I don't recall seeing or reading about any major lead-outs for him this year.

In one of the interviews before one of the early sprinter's stages he was asked about his tactics and his reply was something to the effect of "I'll look to see which other team looks strong and try to hop on."

I think it's pretty obvious to say that Lotto just doesn't have the depth of some of the other teams this year, particularly CSC, which makes Evans' performance even more impressive, wheelsucker or not.

If Evans wins the tour with out winning a stage I will stop following cycling.









until the Olympics.

If Evans wins the tour with out winning a stage I will stop following cycling.









until the Olympics.

Better get ready to quit for a few days. I believe he's going to do it.

Better get ready to quit for a few days. I believe he's going to do it.

Insert sad face...

Evans is playing smart with what he's got. If he wins he has outplayed the entire CSC team.

Awesome stage today. Just awesome.

Well said.

Evans is still the man. Sastre got some back today but, really, is he more deserving than Evans for the TDF win? I think not. He (Sastre) looks like a nice solid GC guy but, he's riding the big CSC train.

Sastre is sucking wheels for two weeks and now I'm supposed to praise him for putting a whopping 2+ mins. on Evans after the 17th Stage? Sheit. Weak sauce.

Evans is one tough, grinding Aussie. Screw Riis and that whole big CSC operation. They wont win.

Call me the noob but, please don't tell me Sastre is a champion. Boring, boring rider for a great team.
That's hardly the stuff of TDF history.

Results on this stage are the best thing that could possibly have happened, as far as us the fans are concerned.

Had Cadel kept the time gap to under 1 minute we would know he would smoke Sastre in the time trial and win the GC.

Had the gap been over 2 minutes we'd know he'd probably lose. Sastre has been a pretty lousy timetrialist in the past but he did fairly well this year so far. He could finish within 2 minutes.

But no, the gap is something like 1:40 so we still don't know who will win overall. :)

OTOH, they've got one more stage with a climbing finish where more time gaps could theoretically be taken, making it possible it will come down to a gap of just seconds to win.


I wouldn't count on it. Cat 4 climb, with a run in of several kilometers after the climb. Odds are extremely strong there's no change on GC today or tomorrow.

Watching Sastre attack caused a sense of disorientation, like waking up one morning and seeing the sun rising in the west.

Nonetheless Carlos is the Mastre of Disastre. He'll lose three minutes (at least) to Evans in the TT.

The REAL blame goes to Lotto management for not building a team around Evans, instead building it around aging and increasingly speedless McEwen. I didn't notice one Lotto guy around Evans on the final climb, at least not one doing any work. That's shameful for a GC contender, and every Lotto teammate of Evans should farkin' apologize to him for doing nothing...

JMHO,

Mark

Mark, Lotto DID build their entire tour team around Evans. The only one not working for Cadel is McEwen. Lotto brought no riders to help Robbie - he has been on his own. The fact that no Lotto rider was around Cadel in the mountains has more to do with the fact that Lotto has a weak team, than anything else.

... Brad

+1 !!!!!

I wouldn't count on it. Cat 4 climb, with a run in of several kilometers after the climb. Odds are extremely strong there's no change on GC today or tomorrow.

Well, I wasn't counting on it - just suggesting it's not a likely group sprint finish, given the course profile. I'd think CSC SHOULD try to get a few more seconds anywhere, anyway they can - b/c I'll be very surprised if Sastre can stay within 2 minutes of Cadel on the ITT.

While exciting, I'm not happy that the Tour will likely be won by a guy who made only one tiny attempt to attack... don't like the wheel sucker.

I, too, disagree.

I would agree completely with this, and with the complaints about Cadel possibly winning without winning a stage, if we'd never heard of Cadel before this year.

The thing is, the guy doesn't have stealth. EVERY GC contender knew that they would have to attack him in the mountains. Lotto could have painted a bullseye on his back on every mountain stage. He simply had to be attacked in the mountains, we knew it, the GC guys knew it, and he knew it.

That simply can NOT be an easy way to ride.

But despite every single GC hopeful knowing that they had to beat him in the mountains, danged few of them could do it. If he'd lost 3 minutes or 5 minutes on one of the climbs (like, say, VDV), we'd have all said "yup, he's not a climber, that was expected".

Instead, he rode WITH pretty much every single guy who knew they had to break him. Some got ahead of him, but nobody, except MAYBE Sastre, broke him.

If you can ride what 5, 6 days in the mountains with a bullseye on your back and fight them all off, well, that's good enough for me.

I love attacking riding as much as the next guy. That said, Cadel has been like a boxer with no arms, standing around in the ring, trying to endure until the final bell.

Everyone's taken their shot at him, and he's still here. My hat is off to him.

V

I would agree completely with this, and with the complaints about Cadel possibly winning without winning a stage, if we'd never heard of Cadel before this year.

The thing is, the guy doesn't have stealth. EVERY GC contender knew that they would have to attack him in the mountains. Lotto could have painted a bullseye on his back on every mountain stage. He simply had to be attacked in the mountains, we knew it, the GC guys knew it, and he knew it.

That simply can NOT be an easy way to ride.

But despite every single GC hopeful knowing that they had to beat him in the mountains, danged few of them could do it. If he'd lost 3 minutes or 5 minutes on one of the climbs (like, say, VDV), we'd have all said "yup, he's not a climber, that was expected".

Instead, he rode WITH pretty much every single guy who knew they had to break him. Some got ahead of him, but nobody, except MAYBE Sastre, broke him.

If you can ride what 5, 6 days in the mountains with a bullseye on your back and fight them all off, well, that's good enough for me.

I love attacking riding as much as the next guy. That said, Cadel has been like a boxer with no arms, standing around in the ring, trying to endure until the final bell.

Everyone's taken their shot at him, and he's still here. My hat is off to him.

V

Nice synopsis - I agree.

I, too, disagree.

I would agree completely with this, and with the complaints about Cadel possibly winning without winning a stage, if we'd never heard of Cadel before this year.

The thing is, the guy doesn't have stealth. EVERY GC contender knew that they would have to attack him in the mountains. Lotto could have painted a bullseye on his back on every mountain stage. He simply had to be attacked in the mountains, we knew it, the GC guys knew it, and he knew it.

That simply can NOT be an easy way to ride.

But despite every single GC hopeful knowing that they had to beat him in the mountains, danged few of them could do it. If he'd lost 3 minutes or 5 minutes on one of the climbs (like, say, VDV), we'd have all said "yup, he's not a climber, that was expected".

Instead, he rode WITH pretty much every single guy who knew they had to break him. Some got ahead of him, but nobody, except MAYBE Sastre, broke him.

If you can ride what 5, 6 days in the mountains with a bullseye on your back and fight them all off, well, that's good enough for me.

I love attacking riding as much as the next guy. That said, Cadel has been like a boxer with no arms, standing around in the ring, trying to endure until the final bell.

Everyone's taken their shot at him, and he's still here. My hat is off to him.

V

I also agree.

Funny how Christian is the hero and Cadel is the goat, even though they basically have ridden the same race. :innocent:

I'm a pig.

The woman in the orange bikini jumping up and down at approximately 6.5k to go was INCREDIBLE.

Best part of the stage by far.

The woman in the orange bikini jumping up and down at approximately 6.5k to go was INCREDIBLE.

Best part of the stage by far.

How did I miss it!!!!

... Brad