Forum Suggestions & User Assistance - Censorship part 2

Since the original thread was convieniently closed before any other members have a chance to express any opinions on censorcism here is another.

I did not spend years of my life as a member of the military to stand in defense of free speech only to have it revoked by one who benefits from mine and others sacrafices.

Censorship will ruin the forum.

Anyone disagree?

I'll PM this one to you Joe so you might at least see it before it is slammed.

Sam, the right to free speech means that the government can't restrict what you say.

Extreme censorship can ruin a community, I'll agree with you there. At the same time, lack of moderation will also ruin a community.

You are right there Joe, thank you for not allowing indiscriminate censorship to close or delete this thread as initially seemed had happened.

Since the original thread was convieniently closed before any other members have a chance to express any opinions on censorcism here is another.

I did not spend years of my life as a member of the military to stand in defense of free speech only to have it revoked by one who benefits from mine and others sacrafices.

Censorship will ruin the forum.

Anyone disagree?

I'll PM this one to you Joe so you might at least see it before it is slammed.

You also have the freedom to leave this forum if you feel you are not getting to say what you want and let others enjoy the information and friendships that are formed here. Freedom comes in many ways...it's up to you to decide how you want to use those freedoms. ;)

?????

A good point indeed.

So how do you deal with government infringements? Leave the country? Hardly a good arguement but I do see your point and have addressed it. I'm not sure how long my login and use info will be around for me to respond.

Those who know me and have met me know I am straight up and I will stand for right against wrong under all circumstances.

So who do you want deciding what you can say? You may not be allowed to question those who have the censorship authority so decide quickly.

Think you can flesh out what was censored??

?????


:roflmao:

Just consider it a thread about censorship in general. That is actually what it really is at this point Dnvr.

Think you can flesh out what was censored??

This post was deleted/stalled initially and the original censorship post was shut down before you can blink.It was pretty much harmless, just making a quick point to try and get others opinions until their opinions were immediately denied by closing/deleteing the thread.?????

Sorry I did not copy and save my original thread but it concerned why the bicycle smile thread was shut down after it had lived for months.

It was harmlessly entertaining for months but all of a sudden gone. Apparently there were a handful of complaints so the few rule the many I guess. It boils down to censorship and who decides what you are allowed to say. Keeping good taste is a noble goal and should be present here but what if the censor was a cleanliness freak? Maybe I am overreating but censorship is still bad. I'll fight to see you get to speak your mind as long as what you say is not harmful or in violation of anothers liberties.

A good point indeed.

So how do you deal with government infringements? Leave the country? Hardly a good arguement but I do see your point and have addressed it. I'm not sure how long my login and use info will be around for me to respond.

Those who know me and have met me know I am straight up and I will stand for right against wrong under all circumstances.

So who do you want deciding what you can say? You may not be allowed to question those who have the censorship authority so decide quickly.

The government has absolutely nothing to do with this forum.

Lets put it this way...say I am at a party of some friends and some people show up that I don't like. Do I stay and fight and possibly go to jailover something stupid, OR do I leave. Personally I leave. I am not a chicken $&^%, I just see no reason to go to jail for somethng petty. I am all for standing up for my rights believe me, I have fought many employers on my rights and when they infringe upon them I let them know. This forum is entirely different, you don't have to be here, you weren't asked to be here, and you may leave anytime you feel like, with basically no consequences to anyone.(except maybe your pride) If you don't like the food at a resturaunt, do you continue to go ther and just complain about it or go somewhere else?

Denver: The "Bicycle Smile" thread was closed / removed from the public side after users continued to bump the thread just to have it a the top of the list.

Maybe I should be a good little forum member and keep my keyboard shut. ;)

This is by and far the best forum I have been to on the net due to the good taste that resides here. But when I see censorship where it is questionable start creeping in I see it going downhill and have to at least say something. This is my neigborhood too and I like it. But when someone shows up weilding authority a bit loosely......Immediate closing and deletion of a thread questioning an action before the community can voice itself is bad censorship.

I refuse to cower and hide and be a nice quiet little boy.

I agree with Sam I read his original post before it was deleted he was expressing an opinion that was not offensive. I think though this is not covered by the constitution that it should take more than just one moderators opinion to remove threads. I have seen threads removed that were no more offensive than other threads that continued and still continue to this day. Sam is right over zealous censorship can ruin this forum. I do think that over all this forums decorum (hey that rhymes) is better than most out there but when it starts to step on someones right to opinion something that is going on at this site that steps over the line.

:roflmao:

Just consider it a thread about censorship in general. That is actually what it really is at this point Dnvr.

Thanks. I get the essence of what is being discussed. Appreciate your response.

Thanks. I get the essence of what is being discussed. Appreciate your response.

But what can you add to this? You always bring forth wisdom which can only come with your years of dealing with life in general.

You can even call me a stupid immature jerk and I won't mind. If I were a woman it might be argued as that time of the month.

But what can you add to this? You always bring forth wisdom which can only come with your years of dealing with life in general.

You can even call me a stupid immature jerk and I won't mind. If I were a woman it might be argued as that time of the month.

We have been through this issue a number of times, and I was going to stay out of it.

But, since you asked :D

1. I am essentially here by invitation and at someone else's expense.

2. This is a private forum not subjest to the provisions of the US constitution on free speech.

3. Being a moderator is one H*** of a job (I would not want to be one) and no moderator is perfect. They are all volunteers, and I would guess get a fair amount of crap from folks that I probably have no clue about.

4. I agreed to certain forum guidelines when I signed up.

5. It is not the most important part of my life. Sort of like reading a magazine, I can put it down whenever I like, BUT, every single one of my "Letters to the Editors" gets published - unlike a magazine.

6. I have been guilty of over statement and even rudeness to others at times. I have made a vow to not continue this behavior, and, all-in-all, I think I have done a good job of being more friendly. However, never during those times was i criticized by a moderator.

7. I am continuously extremely impressed with the intelligence, insight, good nature and forebearing of 99% of the folks on this forum. A very high class of folks, and one I am extremely pleased to associate myself with. You will rarely find this kind of talent on most other forums, social groups or gatherings of any kind.

So, I balance the bad with the good, and have decided the bike forum is much more good than bad. As with everything, nothing is perfect, but I personally would not spend a lot of time fighting about what is essentially entertainment. In my mind, it beats just about everything on TV!

There you have my thoughts, for whatever they are worth!

Your thoughts are worth their weight in gold my friend. Dead on and fair in every aspect.

Thank you.

Maybe I need therapy.....

Sorry I did not copy and save my original thread but it concerned why the bicycle smile thread was shut down after it had lived for months.

It was harmlessly entertaining for months but all of a sudden gone. Apparently there were a handful of complaints so the few rule the many I guess. It boils down to censorship and who decides what you are allowed to say. Keeping good taste is a noble goal and should be present here but what if the censor was a cleanliness freak? Maybe I am overreating but censorship is still bad. I'll fight to see you get to speak your mind as long as what you say is not harmful or in violation of anothers liberties.

Sam, I've found plenty to disagree with you about over time, but I'm mostly on your side on this one. I thought the bicycle smile thread was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen in these forums. It's taste was questionable, but no worse than the things you can see on network television or hear on the radio every day. There were innuendos, but no naughty words that I recall. There were not ethnic slurs or personal attacks in the thread. Those who were offended by it had the right to ignore it. Just as they have the right to ignore the offensive material that is broadcast in other media.

I am often offended by things I see, hear and read. But I am more deeply offended by those who would censor the things that I see hear and read.

I saw earlier that the thread had been closed. That didn't bother me particularly. It had run to 10 pages and what? 250 posts? It was pretty well spent. That it occasionally was bumped and refused to die even amused me. I thought briefly about posting a "re-open the bicycle smile thread" thread, but didn't have time to think it through. That the thread has been deleted entirely seems to me an absurd and wrong-headed decision. That thread amused a lot of people and brought a little notoriety to this website.

I like the fact that this is a moderated forum. I appreciate the fact that there is a way to redress personal wrongs. Attacks can be curtailed. Community standards can be enforced. I realize that this is not a democracy. I hope that it does not become an oligarchy. If it becomes too restrictive, I'll leave too.

I know that my opinion sometimes flies in the face of the popular. I try to state my opinions without restricting the voices of others. As long as it doesn't get personal, debate can be a valuable thing.

Start a "Bring back the bicycle smile" poll and I'll vote yes. We'll see if it is truly the wishes of the community to have the thread removed.

If, in fact, the reason certain threads are simply deleted is due to length and bumping, can I offer a suggestion? I've seen this done in other forums - if a particular thread becomes very popular can it not be continued after a certain number of pages? Some threads do become too cumbersome to wade through when they are more than 5 pages long, so why not pick an arbitrary cut off and then restart it. If the interest is there, the topic will survive. If not, it will die a natural death. Just my .02

I think the issue here lies more in the thread Sam had originally started on censorship, not on deleting the bike smile thread. It is dangerous even in the private world of the internet to let a small group of people control some ones opinion. His post was not on any subject mater that should of offended anyone forum guide lines or not. The moderators need to look past their personal feelings when someone expresses an opinion that is honest and non threatining. I really hope we do not see that kind of thing again.

David Parker

I think the issue here lies more in the thread Sam had originally started on censorship, not on deleting the bike smile thread. It is dangerous even in the private world of the internet to let a small group of people control some ones opinion. His post was not on any subject mater that should of offended anyone forum guide lines or not. The moderators need to look past their personal feelings when someone expresses an opinion that is honest and non threatining. I really hope we do not see that kind of thing again.

David Parker

I agree with you 100%. Since Joe brought it up (the reason the bike smiley thread was deleted)....


The "Bicycle Smile" thread was closed / removed from the public side after users continued to bump the thread just to have it a the top of the list.

...I was merely offering the suggestion. In a less direct way though, I guess I'm questioning the motive behind the deletion of the entire thread instead of just closing it. Was it housecleaning or censorship?

A handful complaints brought the demise of one of the most entertaining and fun threads to ever grace this forum after it lived for months.

It had a cult following you might say.

It had a cult following you might say.

Oh I know it did! I may not have contributed to it but I followed it with interest. It was the lighter side to biking to say the least. And really, how different is it to the numerous threads started by the Underwear Nazi? (nothing against UN by the way! I think he/she is GREAT!) It's all good if it makes you smile! ;)

I would think that the "pee off your bike" thread, though a legit concern, would take cake for offensive.
Are coy, cute observations more offensive than defecation recipies?

No matter where you put it....mtb or road, A nice italian leather racing seat is a sexy thing-ride on!

oops..I ment Saddle, new to bikespeak. ;)

Censorship is bad and I had this go-round with Joe (via PM) at the beginning of my joining the forum. Essentially, the same response as posted above. A private forum and I can leave if I don't care for the censorship. Very unAmerican, IMHO.

That said, I thought the Smile thread was silly and immature and I only visited once. However, it is not my (or anyone's, again IMHO) place to censor same. Like the political forum, if I don't care for I don't need to visit. Same for all others who are offended. Don't like it, don't go there. But don't censor.

As one of the moderators I think I need to chime in
on this one. We (mods) debated a good deal concerning
the bicycle smile thread, and there were a number of
issues that led us to close it.
The two following issues are the main reason I saw for closing the thread.

1) The thread had been linked to by a few porn sites,
and we believe that some of the posters were refugees
from that arena. While I personally have no problem with
folks who enjoy that sort of thing,
I do not want that kind of exposure here at Bike Forums.

2) There were something like 40 e-mails and PMs reporting
some of the content of the thread.
Usually when we get this type of report we edit the
offending post and PM the poster.

Given both of these we felt it best to close the thread.
Prior to the bumps the thread received we were content
to just let it die out, obviously it didn't.

Marty

Since the original thread was convieniently closed before any other members have a chance to express any opinions on censorcism here is another.

Actually, I did respond, Sam. However, I noticed that my response was deleted, and the thread was closed.

Let me first state, that I am a visiter here, and I do everything I can to conform to the rules of the forum. I try to post helpful responses to other's posts, and appreciate the good responses I get to my posts. This is a great forum, in part due to the great contributions of its users, and in part due to the thankless work of the moderators. However ....

... it does seem that some moderators delete or close threads when the rules of the forum HAVEN'T been broken or even bent. That does rub me the wrong way. I respect, and obey the rules. In doing so, I expect other users, as well as the mods, to respond in like-kind. This certainly hasn't always been the case, IMHO.

As one of the moderators I think I need to chime in
on this one. We (mods) debated a good deal concerning
the bicycle smile thread, and there were a number of
issues that led us to close it.
The two following issues are the main reason I saw for closing the thread.

1) The thread had been linked to by a few porn sites,
and we believe that some of the posters were refugees
from that arena. While I personally have no problem with
folks who enjoy that sort of thing,
I do not want that kind of exposure here at Bike Forums.

2) There were something like 40 e-mails and PMs reporting
some of the content of the thread.
Usually when we get this type of report we edit the
offending post and PM the poster.

Given both of these we felt it best to close the thread.
Prior to the bumps the thread received we were content
to just let it die out, obviously it didn't.

Marty

This is good information to know. Thank you, Marty.

Gee, I never even noticed the "smile" thread. Darn. But I have been wondering about the bump thing. What is it with that? Is it just to get their name as the last contributor?
Some threads just don't seem to die. NUDE BIKERS IN WATERTON CANYON for example. But the diverse group of people means someone is going to complain about just about everything.
I sure wouldn't want the moderators job.

As one of the moderators I think I need to chime in
on this one. We (mods) debated a good deal concerning
the bicycle smile thread, and there were a number of
issues that led us to close it.
The two following issues are the main reason I saw for closing the thread.

1) The thread had been linked to by a few porn sites,
and we believe that some of the posters were refugees
from that arena. While I personally have no problem with
folks who enjoy that sort of thing,
I do not want that kind of exposure here at Bike Forums.

2) There were something like 40 e-mails and PMs reporting
some of the content of the thread.
Usually when we get this type of report we edit the
offending post and PM the poster.

Given both of these we felt it best to close the thread.
Prior to the bumps the thread received we were content
to just let it die out, obviously it didn't.

Marty

Maybe the moderators need to tell us exactly why a thread is being removed instead of just saying this is enough it is over. It might help alleviate any confusion in the future.
It still doesn't excuse the deletion of Sam's original post. Which is what this thread is really about, not the bike smile thread.

Ok, I'm a bit confused here.
I explained my thoughts on the Bicycle smile thread
which I thought (obviously wrong) that was the object
of this thread. Hopefully it helped clear up why that decision was made.
Now to the censorship issue.
Are we discussing the closed thread "Censorship"?
or the thread by Sam titled "Good enough for Joe"?

I agree that we as mods should explain why we are
closing a thread (unless its been dead for 6 months
or more and we would like to keep it that way ! ).

Marty

Yes you explained the bicycle smiles deletion very well. And I have to say I would not want to be a moderator on this site its a tough job. And for the most part you all do a great job, especially for the money you make doing it :)
Sam's original thread on censorship was on the deleting of the bicycle smiles thread. But this one is about a moderator who deleted that thread not because it violated any forum guidelines they just didn't like what was being said. I personally think that oversteps the bounds of a moderator. Like any public figure when you become a moderator you are going to open yourself to criticism. Deleting threads like that ssets a nasty precedent, and though this site is not covered by the freedom of speech members should be able to voice their dissatisfaction in a fair and clear voice as an opinion without fear of censorship.

The good enough for Joe thread was in no way a violation of forum guidelines and brought up a concern with the use of authority in a questionable manner.

The point being that authority does sometimes need questioning to keep it in line with the general forum populations expectations.

When the question arose it was almost immediately shut down and deleted so apparently questioning authority openly to the forum population is taboo and will immediately be censored and the poster will be the one put under the microscope.

Alas, Joe has proven to me now that the forum members will be heard and thanks to him and his objectivity this thread was allowed to live rather than be destroyed by a rogue dictator.

I mourn the passing of the smile

Is there no joy left in life?

Aren't there other ways to beat the pornsters ... like occassionally moving the thread so that their links won't work -- I doubt they would stick around long.

I'm suggesting something like the Supreme's interpretation of the Constitutional free speech requirement: the restraint must be the least restrictive on speech that will accomplish the governmental interest when censorship is necessary.

:( :( :( :cry: :cry:

Aren't there other ways to beat the pornsters ... like occassionally moving the thread so that their links won't work -- I doubt they would stick around long.

I'm suggesting something like the Supreme's interpretation of the Constitutional free speech requirement: the restraint must be the least restrictive on speech that will accomplish the governmental interest when censorship is necessary.
Erraticrider,

Yes there are other ways to beat the pornsters, however Links from
porn sites, discussion of the Bicycle smile thread on porn/sexually oriented
sites/boards is not the kind of exposure that I personally want to see here.

As to the Supreme's interpretation, well I'll leave that to the legal fundis
(fundi is South African for expert or maven :D ).
I do believe that we do limit the amount of censoring we do here, most threads
are allowed to run without intervention. There is auto censorship of certain
terms, but we all know there are ways around that. I do believe the issue
is not the smile thread anymore, but censorship in general.
For those who want to see what a true uncensored, unmoderated forum
can become try some of the rec.alt.bicycles discussions. I subscribe to a
number of different forums, read the newgroups etc. and with the exception of
the classic rendezvous list, Serotta forum, and here (BikeForums) I find most
of them (unmoderated) to be so many slugfests and flamewars and not a place
I would care to either ask or offer an opinion.
Just my .02 worth and not necessarily the viewpoints of management or
any other moderator or persons of human descent.

Marty

I just tried to start a thread saying good-bye to the smile ... I realy don't understand why it was censored. It said nothing about the content of the old thread and didn't have "smile" in the caption. Why censor it?

You know, I've had a few bouts with the moderators here, but all in all they do what they can to be "fair". But, it's Joe's forum. He picks moderators who represent what he thinks the board should be. It's a drawback, but you either accept, or leave. I'm sure when presented with a decent case, they'll listen. If people are that concerned about female orgazisms... I suggest they see their spouse, loved one, significant other, battery operated/non battery operated toy of choice and settle that issue.. off forum.

Though, I'm no moderator.


I thought it strange that you were listed on the cranky list until I read this post. Now you've got my vote. :D

William - well said. So unlike you.

You know, I've had a few bouts with the moderators here, but all in all they do what they can to be "fair". But, it's Joe's forum. He picks moderators who represent what he thinks the board should be. It's a drawback, but you either accept, or leave. I'm sure when presented with a decent case, they'll listen. If people are that concerned about female orgazisms... I suggest they see their spouse, loved one, significant other, battery operated/non battery operated toy of choice and settle that issue.. off forum.

Though, I'm no moderator.

I wonder who got Karsten's password, and typed that little ditty? ;)

Seriously William, you were voted "most cranky" - now stand and deliver!!! :D

There's no censorship here... just censorsh*t :)

I don't consider there to be an excess of censorship here. We have to remember that the forum is open to all members of all ages so there have to be some checks and balances.

I think if you look at the forum over the past couple of years, past 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, there have been plenty of heated debates with no censorship on those.

As far as I am aware only offensive personal remarks have been addressed and members who did not comply with the guidelines expelled. You join the club, you play by the rules.

As to the "smile" I found it funny, but then I'm not the parent of a younger child who might find it less so.

Just to remind everyone, the right to free speech is not purely an American thing. It's part of virtually every democracy, but even in America there are restrictions on it, for the good of the population.

William - well said. So unlike you.

Thanks for the un compliment. So... like you.

I agree with you Sam I am a member in many forums and too many times moderators abuse their power and ENFORCE their beliefs on a public forum. We are not little children nor do little children fequent this forum so why is there censorship. Let us not forget that if it wasnt for the users there would be no forum, therefore this must remain a democratic style forum....2 or 3 people should decide whats right. And if you were really serious about people leaving the forum for our rights I assure you that most people would leave.

Saso, I can sometimes act like a child. ;)

But yes, the people make the forum not the server that processes all the info.

In fairness it does seem that 90% of the time here the moderators come to a consensus about taking drastic action on threads. There has been only a handful of questionables from what i have gathered from other board members but they all have a common denominator. A specific moderator. This means that the issue needed to be brought to light before one person could cause more damage.

The fact that this site is moderated makes me momentarily forget that there are bad, yucky people in the world (ones that are moderated rightly so).

Then I step outside my door.

Sam - you know there are about a jillion bike forums on the net, each with it's own unique personality. This one seems to be filled with a little more intellectual types than most of the others, but so far as I can tell it's moderated well. It's also a little more roadie/touring centered. And that's cool, it takes all kinds. One thing I mostly appreciate about this one is that I can let my kid visit and don't have to worry about explaining several new off-color words and phrases that you see at lots of the others. Occasionally, especially in the winter when the more northern sun deprived members start getting cabin fever, I split for awhile and go to one of the more hardcore forums where I expect to get abuse with every post. No matter what we all have something in common, and that is biking in all it's forms (even argggg cyclocross hehehe).

Just look at some of the more active moderators, I'll use Koffee as an example. Have you ever known anyone so helpful to people expecting nothing in return? And remember, all this is free!

I can sometimes act like a child.

Me too. A cranky one at that.

Perhaps we should improve ourselves this year.

I have been victim to "Super" Moderators before, not on this board....Even though what I had posted was in no way shape or form offensive or anything to that extent, the mod felt that it should be locked and then deleted. It was clearly a sign of Power trip. Instead of posting a thread about it and complaining in the open. I sent him and PM expressing my thoughts and concerns intelligently. I was quickly banned from that site. For reasons I guess I will never know. Short of the long, I don't need to be on boards like that and if I ever come across that tone on this board or any of the other 20 I am on, I will do the same and march on!