High-end vs entry-level tandems

[Cycl/Canoe-ist]

On my journey to acquire our first tandem, I had my hand on a late 90's Santana Sovereign for a brief period. On my test ride, I took this bike out solo around the block to make sure all mechanical pieces are in working order. In the end, I sold this bike due to improper fit (frame too large). We now own an 08 Cannondale Road tandem that fits like a glove.

Aside from componentry and bike weight, what differences should one expect to find between high-end tandems vs entry to mid-level tandems performance-wise?

From my limited and brief experience of both tandems, I've noticed that the C'Dale frame has a lot more flex. I found this to be true even when I ride the tandem solo (ie no stoker). The Santana was stiff and felt like riding a single, while th C'Dale sways and fishtails a lot.

Is my observation accurate between these two? As previously said, I'm new to tandeming.

[Telkwa]

Jeepers, one of the reasons we bought our C'dale was because the aluminum frame is supposed to be significantly stiffer than steel, putting more pedal power to the road.
Now you've got me wondering!

[rmac]

Our Cannondale is the stiffest (and harshest) bike I have ever owned. Either, Cannondale changed the bike for 2008 or there is something wrong with your frame/fork. I always thought that older Santana's were relatively compliant compared to other tandems.

[swc7916]

The Santana was stiff and felt like riding a single, while th C'Dale sways and fishtails a lot

Cannondales are supposed to be about as stiff as they come - It's the steering geometry and not frame flex that is causing the fishtailing. Our Rodriguez handles the same way; the rear wheel goes everywhere when I ride it solo.

[merlinextraligh]

Cannondales are supposed to be about as stiff as they come - It's the steering geometry and not frame flex that is causing the fishtailing. Our Rodriguez handles the same way; the rear wheel goes everywhere when I ride it solo.

I haven't ridden a Cdale tandem, or a Santana, but I was going to say the same thing.

Santana's are setup to be very stable. Going to a quicker handling bike may give you the feel that the stoker portion of the frame is flexing, when in fact, its the bike reacting more quickly.

We went from a steel Burley, to a Co-Motion Robusta, which like the Cdale is made of oversized aluminum tubing.

I am very confident that the Robusta is more rigid than the Burley, and on the rigid side of the spectrum as all tandems go.

However, I've read at least one review complaining about it's flex.

When we first got on the Robusta, I could definitely feel that the bike was more twitchy, and that Stoker input had more of an effect on the bike. These effects, in my opinion, are the result of the quick handling ( resulting from the amount of trail ) as opposed to frame flex, but I could see how they could be mistaken as such.

[tandem_dude]

Agree completely with merlinextraligh. Our first higher end tandem was a Santana Sovereign (aluminum). The bike was both stable and stiff. We then sold it and bought a Co-Motion Robusta (also aluminum). The bike was at least equally stiff, but the handling was so completely different. Essentially it was like going from driving a large truck / van to a heading out in a sports car. A lot more sensitive to input. Give it a few rides for both of you to adjust. Also, helps if the stoker gives you a heads up if she is going for water, adjusting in the seat, etc., at least until you are more comfortable with the bike.

[MB1]

I'm thinking you are making a mistake even thinking about comparing tandems to each other based on how they ride sans stoker.

As far as differences between a modern entry level tandem and a modern high end tandem; the primary difference is a great deal of "Zoot factor" and perhaps a small improvement in durability and high speed performance. Performance on a tandem is more about the fitness, skill and experience of the team then it is about the frame material, frame design and components.

[TandemGeek]

Aside from componentry and bike weight, what differences should one expect to find between high-end tandems vs entry to mid-level tandems performance-wise?

If you exclude components and weight, there are very few differences between entry-mid-high end tandems within the brands aside from frame material and, with a few exceptions, geometry. In other words, a Santana Sovereign SE will -- for all intents and purposes -- have similar geometry and handling characteristics to a Santana Sovereign and a Santana Team AL (or Scandium, which may have taken the place of the Team AL). While the fork materials and brake fittings may be a bit different for the various steel and carbon forks offered by Santana, they all use the same fork rake (55mm) and crown height.

Co-Motion's racing tandems are a bit different than Santana's 'Team' tandems in that Co-Motion specs carbon forks that have lless rake (44mm and 45mm) than their steel forks (50mm). Therefore, given that a stock Co-Motion will have 'sportier' handling than a stock Santana, the Co-Motion racing tandems truly have much more aggressive geometry than even their stock siblings. Before Burley exited the tandem market they too adopted a shorter rake carbon fork for their "Race" model tandems (47mm) and when Trek introduced their carbon tandem fork it too had shortened rake (50mm) compared to their stock steel forks (55mm).

Your Cannondale is somewhere in the middle with 53mm of rake... but does so with a really, really harsh fork given that it was designed to support the use of a front disc.

Now, the interesting thing here is that almost all of the stock premium tandems use the same 73* head tube angle (as well as 73* seat tubes with some variation for the largest and smallest sized frames) so one might assume that you could 'tailor' the handling of a Co-Motion to be more like a Santana or visa-versa by simply switching forks. However, once again there are a lot of differences in how each brand designs their frames and it's the way their tubing is spec'd (gauge, butting, etc...) and joined that further defines how they handle. Again, what you'll find is that within the brands there are very few major 'performance' differences inherent in their frame geometry or construction methods, just differences in materials (lighter and more expensive alloys or exotic tubing) to reduce the weight (hopefully) without reducing the stiffness, stability, or comfort of their designs and, of course, the components to include forks which do influence how a tandem handles.

From my limited and brief experience of both tandems, I've noticed that the C'Dale frame has a lot more flex. I found this to be true even when I ride the tandem solo (ie no stoker). The Santana was stiff and felt like riding a single, while th C'Dale sways and fishtails a lot. Is my observation accurate between these two?

I think others have done a pretty good job of capturing what you may be exeriencing here. Santana's are designed to be very easy to ride, comforable and very forgiving... a great thing for beginners which is one of the reasons that they are so popular. The Cannondale, on the other hand, is a bit more aggressive and less forgiving. On the bright side, most teams will adapt to whatever tandem brand and model they choose so long as they stick with stock configurations and avoid classic consumer errors, e.g., if you don't plan to race or ride aggressively don't buy a racing tandem.

[jgg3]

In my experience, the best way to determine a tandem frame's quality is climbing out of the saddle while the stoker is sitting. At least, for me, it directly mapped to my overall satisfaction with the bike. On low end bikes, it is almost impossible to do. On high-end bikes, it is close to single bike behavior. I know that it will be the my first test on any future tandem.

Now, I don't have the tandem experience of some here, so take it with some skepticism. But do the test if you can. Riding around without a stoker (especially your primary stoker) would not nearly be as a good a test in my opinion.

[Retro Grouch]

When I had my bike shop I kept 3 tandems in stock: an entry level tandem from Univega or KHS, a Burley and a Santana.

It was interesting to test ride them one immediately after another. Most of the difference was in the frames. As you moved up the food chain the frames got noticeably stiffer. It was scary to ride the KHS immediately after riding the Santana.

[Cycl/Canoe-ist]

Thanks for all the comments. As a newbie to tandeming, I really appreciate the insight on further understanding how our machine moves :P

Don't get me wrong, we already love our tandem. I also have no doubt that our C'Dale will see lots and lots of miles (km in my neck'o woods) whether local rides or tours. I definitely agree that it's great value.

RetroG - I was sooo close at working a deal on a used KHS Tandemania Milano. I didn't buy it coz the guy didn't want to give me a $50 discount. In the end, I thought I blew out a deal. I feel better now after your experience.

[Telkwa]

Wanted to add to this thread -
We spotted a cell phone on the side of the road this morning while commuting home. (Found its owner this afternoon.)
Anyway, Patti hopped off while I pedaled back to get it.
That was the first time I'd ridden our C'Dale without my partner. It felt like the tail was slithering back and forth with each pedal stroke! I imagine this is what the OP was trying to describe. I have no explanation for the perception. The bike feels very linear with both of us, and I'm confident there's nothing wrong with it. But it sure felt like there was a hinge in the frame about one foot behind my saddle.
Weird

[joe@vwvortex]

Flex can also be felt in the wheels - i'd check to make sure all wheel tension is correct as well.

[TandemGeek]

Anyway, Patti hopped off while I pedaled back to get it. That was the first time I'd ridden our C'Dale without my partner. It felt like the tail was slithering back and forth with each pedal stroke!

Well, yeah... Your tandem just lost the entire weight of an adult rider which shifted the center of gravity from somewhere around the middle of the tandem to the front 1/2. Moreover, even though your stoker was gone your mind hadn't adjusted to the stoker being gone so you were most likely putting in the same pedal and handlebar effort as if they were. This will happen on any tandem... regardless of price, material, or stiffness.

The change is not as dramatic if you hop on the tandem after a long rest stop during a ride and is almost un-noticeable if you decide to pull the tandem out of the garage while working on it to do a solo road test.