Southern California - Socal Suburbs...The Dream is Over???

Bikeforums.net is a forum about nothing but bikes. Our community can help you find information about hard-to-find and localized information like bicycle tours, specialties like where in your area to have your recumbent bike serviced, or what are the best bicycle tires and seats for the activities you use your bike for.




Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5

alicestrong
07-07-08, 11:48 AM
This was posted on the Car Free subforum by a New Jersey resident...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is known as the Inland Empire: a vast stretch of land tucked in the high desert valleys east of Los Angeles. Once home to fruit trees and Indians, it is now a concrete sprawl of jammed freeways, endless suburbs and shopping malls.

But here, in the heartland of the four-wheel drive, a revolution is under way. What was once unthinkable is becoming a shocking reality: America's all-consuming love affair with the car is fading.

Surging petrol prices have worked where environmental arguments have failed. Many Americans have long been told to cut back on car use. Now, facing $4-a-gallon fuel, they have no choice.

Take Adam Garcia, a security guard who works near the railway station in Riverside. Like many Inland Empire residents, he commutes a huge distance: 160km a day. He used to think nothing of it. But now, faced with petrol costs that have tripled, he is taking action. He has even altered the engine of his car to boost its mileage. "I have to. Everyone does. I can't afford to drive as much as I did," he said.

Recent figures showed the steepest monthly drop in kilometres driven by Americans since 1942. At the same time car sales are collapsing, led by huge SUVs.

General Motors, once the very image of American industrial might, is in deep trouble. Cities are now investing in mass transit, hoping to tempt people back into town centres from far-flung commuter belts where they are now stranded by high petrol prices.

Jonathan Baty used to be a pioneer. The lighting designer has cycled to work every day since 1993. It's a 14km round trip through the heartland of a car-based culture once famously termed "Autopia". But now Baty has company on his daily rides as others choose two wheels rather than four to navigate southern California's streets. "We have seen a whole emergence of a bike culture in this area. There is a crescendo of interest," said Baty, who does volunteer work for a cycling group, Bicycle Commuter Coalition of the Inland Empire.

In Riverside, bus travel is up 12% on a year ago, rising to 40% on commuter routes. Use of the town's railway link is up 8%. A local car pooling system is up 40%. It is the same in the rest of the US. In South Florida a light rail system has reported a 28% jump in passengers. In Philadelphia one has shown an 11% rise. Even nationwide scooter sales have shot up. At the same time car sales are hitting 15-year record lows. Last week major American car-makers reported a devastating 18% drop in car sales.

Route 66
The numbers point to a more fundamental shift. In America car sales carry a symbolic value that transcends the wheeler-dealering of the showroom. This is a nation of fabled road trips and Route 66. "There is an American dream of mobility and freedom and wealth. The car is part of all that," said Professor Michael Dear, an urban studies expert at the University of Southern California.


In the 1950s the confident nation that helped win World War II was expressed in classic car designs of huge fins and open tops. By the 1990s it had become the Hummer, a huge bulking car born from the military. Now there is to be another shift. For, hidden within the car sales figures, is a more complex story than a simple fall. Sales of big cars are plummeting while smaller vehicles, especially fuel-efficient hybrids, are replacing them.

GM has now closed SUV production at four plants. Its Hummer brand is up for sale, or might even be closed. GM is ploughing huge resources into its 2010 launch of the Chevy Volt, a hybrid car that may get up to 240km a gallon. It needs to. GM's share price recently hit a 54-year low, prompting one top investment bank to warn that the firm could go bankrupt.

The Volt, and cars like it, could become symbols of a new more conservation-minded car age. As Americans enjoyed the July 4 holiday weekend, increasing numbers of them were staying at home rather than hitting the road. Newspapers were full of tips for "stay-cations", not weekend breaks away. Customs once scorned, such as car pooling and cutting out trips to the mall, are now commonplace. The fact is, the vast majority of Americans cannot give up their cars altogether. Too many cities lack any reliable public transport.

Adam Garcia is one of those caught. He does two jobs and his daily road trip by car is a necessity. "We don't have much of a choice. I have to drive," he said. Sacrifices come elsewhere, in giving up trips to the cinema and to see friends.

But America's changing relationship with the car is just part of the story of how the most powerful nation is changing in the face of the oil price rise. America has been built on an oil-based economy, from its office workers in the suburbs to its farmers in the fields.

Since the 1950s and the building of the pioneering car-orientated suburb of Levittown in Long Island, the American city has been designed for the convenience of the car as much as its human inhabitants. People live kilometres away from jobs, shops or entertainment. If you take away cars, the entire suburban way of life collapses. To some, that development is long overdue.

Cheap oil
"Suburbia has been unsustainable since its creation," said Chris Fauchere, a Denver-based filmmaker who is producing a new documentary on the issue called The Great Squeeze. "It was created around cheap oil. People thought it would flow easily from the earth forever."

Fauchere's film, due out later this year, aims to tackle the profound changes caused by a world where oil is becoming scarcer. He does not think that it is going to be easy for America to make the adjustment. "It is going to be tough. It is like a chain reaction through the economy. But if you look at history, it is only crisis that starts change," he said.

The suburbs are already being hit. As cars become more expensive, the justification for suburbs seems to disappear. Some commentators have even suggested that suburbs -- once the archetype of an ideal American life -- will become the new slums.

In the face of expensive fuel and crashing property prices, the one-time embodiment of a certain American dream will become crime-ridden, dotted by empty lots and home to the poor and unemployed. That is already happening as crime and gang violence has risen in many suburban areas and tens of thousands of homes have been reposessed because of the mortgage crisis.

In effect, suburbs will become the new inner cities, even as once-abandoned American downtowns are undergoing a remarkable renaissance. Even malls, the ultimate symbol of American life since the war, are undergoing a crisis as consumers start to stay away.

But there are even deeper changes going on. The car, the freeway system and cheap air travel made America smaller. Everywhere was easily accessible. That, too, is ending. Higher fuel prices have dealt a terrible blow to America's airlines. They are slashing flights, raising costs and abandoning routes. Some small cities are now losing their air connections.

In effect, America is becoming larger again. That will lead to a more localised economy. To many environmentalists that is a blessing, not a curse. They point out that cheap fuel for industrial transport has meant the average packaged salad has travelled 2 400km before it gets to a supermarket shelf.

"Distance is now an enemy," said Professor Bill McKibben, author of the 1989 climate-change classic The End of Nature. "There's no question that the days of thoughtless driving are done."

The worst hit parts of the US are not yet the suburbs or the freeways of southern California, but the small towns that dot the Great Plains, Appalachia and the rural Deep South. Even more than the Inland Empire, people in these isolated and poor areas are reliant on cheap petrol and much less able to afford the new prices at the pump. Stories abound of agricultural workers unable to afford to get to the fields and of rural businesses going bust.

Even farmers are not immune. They might not need a car to get to their fields but their fertilisers use oil-based products whose prices have gone through the roof. A handful have started using horses again for some tasks, saving petrol on farm vehicles.

Frontier of endless mobility
The American dream of the last half century is thus changing. The car and its culture is now under a pressure unimaginable even a few years ago. "The frontier of endless mobility that we've known our entire lives is closing," said McKibben.

America's excess has had many imitators. Recently a delegation of Chinese government officials and architects visited an Arizona suburb near Phoenix. Approving notes were taken as they surveyed the luxurious car-driven suburban lifestyle on display. This was just one of the many delegations that regularly come from the Far East or South America.

Even as America is sobering up from its excess of cheap oil, other parts of the world are seeking to join the party. They, too, want homes far from dirty city centres, huge open roads and fast cars. It is still a beguiling vision of freedom, mobility and bountiful riches.

McKibben spent last week on a visit to Beijing. He was worried about what he saw. Even as America's obsession with the car lifestyle is ending, others are embracing it. "The Chinese have spent the Bush years starting to build their own version of America. A key question for the planet is whether they still have time to build a version of Europe instead -- global warming will probably hinge on the answer to that question," he said.

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-07-06-the-car-becomes-burden-of-suburbia


GP
07-07-08, 02:06 PM
The same article could have been written during the gas rationing period in the late-70s. Most of the houses and fuel-inefficient vehicles of today weren't built yet. Why isn't the present cost of fuel just a temporary setback like it was then?

1955
07-07-08, 03:01 PM
The same article could have been written during the gas rationing period in the late-70s. Most of the houses and fuel-inefficient vehicles of today weren't built yet. Why isn't the present cost of fuel just a temporary setback like it was then?

It is, but the left wing environmental movement and the media is going to play it for all it's worth. Some people have no memories of how fads come and go.


Brian Sorrell
07-07-08, 03:47 PM
The same article could have been written during the gas rationing period in the late-70s. Most of the houses and fuel-inefficient vehicles of today weren't built yet. Why isn't the present cost of fuel just a temporary setback like it was then?

Because there is more than one cause: the cost of fuel is one among many. Nuanced discussion of multiple causal factors does not play well to the six-second attention span of America's contemporary media consumer.


It is, but the left wing environmental movement and the media is going to play it for all it's worth. Some people have no memories of how fads come and go.

And some people fail to recognize and understand how complex social / economic / political interactions and intersections are exactly what make today's fads tomorrow's status quo. (See above re: attention span.)

tinrobot
07-07-08, 04:26 PM
It is, but the left wing environmental movement and the media is going to play it for all it's worth. Some people have no memories of how fads come and go.

It's more of a tipping point than a 'fad.'

The planet is changing, and changing fast. If we don't change the way we live, we'll be gone.

1955
07-07-08, 05:08 PM
It's more of a tipping point than a 'fad.'

The planet is changing, and changing fast. If we don't change the way we live, we'll be gone.

Don't get hysterical now. Turn off CNN and step away from the TV.

1955
07-07-08, 05:15 PM
Because there is more than one cause: the cost of fuel is one among many. Nuanced discussion of multiple causal factors does not play well to the six-second attention span of America's contemporary media consumer.



And some people fail to recognize and understand how complex social / economic / political interactions and intersections are exactly what make today's fads tomorrow's status quo. (See above re: attention span.)

Why bother with the reality of how people perceive the world, they listen to CNN and follow their reports like lemmings without even trying to understand why they report like they do. When people follow environmentalism, like the religion it is to them, they don't hear logic.

I, like everyone else here, just like to put in my two cents. I really don't expect "the other side" to even understand.

rooftest
07-07-08, 06:07 PM
Ugh - what passes for journalism these days... 3 sentace paragraphs, starting sentances with "But," That author should have paid attention in high school English. (Note that the article is posted on what seems to be a South African site.)

worker4youth
07-07-08, 06:16 PM
Ugh - what passes for journalism these days... 3 sentace paragraphs, starting sentances with "But," That author should have paid attention in high school English. (Note that the article is posted on what seems to be a South African site.)

But a properly formed sentence can start with the word "but". Hate to break it to ya, but your 5th grade teacher lied to you!

I find it humorous that you're whining about grammar and spelling in an article, and your post is full of spelling and grammar mistakes ;)

Brian Sorrell
07-07-08, 06:23 PM
Why bother with the reality of how people perceive the world, they listen to CNN and follow their reports like lemmings without even trying to understand why they report like they do. When people follow environmentalism, like the religion it is to them, they don't hear logic.

I, like everyone else here, just like to put in my two cents. I really don't expect "the other side" to even understand.

That's why I get my information from scientists: three of our close friends include a botanist, an environmental toxicologist and a geologist. (I studied physics in a previous life.) I don't pay much mind to what the TeeVee networks say since I have sources like this close at hand -- and if I want official / political positions, I go directly to the sources, like the EPA website, rather than the pisspoor interpretations of the hack journalists on FOX and CNN.

rooftest: certain style guides advocate starting sentences with "But" over "However", especially for, shall we say, dramatic effect (e.g., the venerable Strunk & White). Personally, I get more concerned over passive voice -- or more pointedly, poorly chosen subjects and verbs -- when causal relationships are at issue.

DScott
07-07-08, 06:36 PM
But here, in the heartland of the four-wheel drive, a revolution is under way. What was once unthinkable is becoming a shocking reality: America's all-consuming love affair with the car is fading.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I imagined this sentence in that serious TV-announcer-guy voice, and just couldn't stop laughing. Which America did this guy visit again? Sure doesn't seem to be any shortage of things that go vroom around here...


The author is too much in love with his own ideas to be bothered with the real world, I think. What a drama queen.

tinrobot
07-07-08, 08:57 PM
Don't get hysterical now. Turn off CNN and step away from the TV.

I'm not and I don't watch cable news. I like facts, not hyperbole.

The North Pole webcam is kind of interesting to watch, however. Here's the link:

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/latest/noaa1.jpg

Notice there's water where there should be ice.

If the ice keeps melting at the current rate, the North Pole will be open ocean before September. No ice at all. Here's a fact: the last time scientists are certain the pole was open ocean was more than 50 million years ago.

Yep.

1955
07-07-08, 09:32 PM
I'm not and I don't watch cable news. I like facts, not hyperbole.

The North Pole webcam is kind of interesting to watch, however. Here's the link:

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/latest/noaa1.jpg

Notice there's water where there should be ice.

If the ice keeps melting at the current rate, the North Pole will be open ocean before September. No ice at all. Here's a fact: the last time scientists are certain the pole was open ocean was more than 50 million years ago.

Yep.


Why don't you go up and make sure the camera is really at the north pole, I hear that it's really where the moon landings were filmed.:roflmao2:

tinrobot
07-07-08, 09:45 PM
Why don't you go up and make sure the camera is really at the north pole, I hear that it's really where the moon landings were filmed.:roflmao2:

Whatever. Just presenting the facts.

alicestrong
07-07-08, 10:15 PM
Whatever. Just presenting the facts.



Yeah...this made me sad. I like Polar bears...
(http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/28/news/bear.php)

magicant
07-07-08, 10:21 PM
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n256/magicant2000/motivator8439689.jpg

Scootcore
07-07-08, 10:58 PM
all i know is that oil cant possibly be a limitless commodity.....sooner or later, much like yer cars gas tank, the worlds "tank" will run dry....dunno when it will happen but simple logic dictates that it will....just sayin'......someone better come up with a new idea.

1955
07-07-08, 11:07 PM
Whatever. Just presenting the facts.

Junk science and politics, not a single fact in sight, only emotions.

1955
07-07-08, 11:10 PM
Yeah...this made me sad. I like Polar bears...
(http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/28/news/bear.php)

Not to hurt your feelings, but what difference would it make if they became extinct, how will it effect your life? You can't hug them, they just happen to look cute.

1955
07-07-08, 11:12 PM
all i know is that oil cant possibly be a limitless commodity.....sooner or later, much like yer cars gas tank, the worlds "tank" will run dry....dunno when it will happen but simple logic dictates that it will....just sayin'......someone better come up with a new idea.

And how do you know that? More junk science from moron.org?

Scootcore
07-07-08, 11:18 PM
where do you get your info Ahole? if yer gonna come on here and present yer opinions as the be all end all of facts, its usually better to have something to back them up....other than elementary school comebacks at least......christ.....is this the kind of response yer looking for? is this why yer bringing all this stuff up? if so you are a sad sad man......

and i know because the big guage i have in my yard says its all getting low. if i say i have it it must be true right? it was just posted on the internet....

bitingduck
07-07-08, 11:19 PM
Why don't you go up and make sure the camera is really at the north pole, I hear that it's really where the moon landings were filmed.:roflmao2:

I just got an email today from a friend who is at the pole now (actually about 80 degrees north on Axel Heiberg Island).

It's 17 C and they went swimming. On previous trips (same time of year) it hasn't gone above about 3 C.

Scootcore
07-07-08, 11:21 PM
A minor detail im sure.....

magicant
07-07-08, 11:29 PM
If only the conservatives would let us drill into Rush's carcass, we'd be set for generations.

tinrobot
07-07-08, 11:42 PM
Junk science and politics, not a single fact in sight, only emotions.

Well, then please enlighten us rather than just tossing out random dismissals.

Exactly which facts are wrong? What part of the science is 'junk?'

1955
07-07-08, 11:49 PM
Testy aren't we...it really hurts your feeling when someone tells you that you're wrong.

1955
07-07-08, 11:53 PM
where do you get your info Ahole? if yer gonna come on here and present yer opinions as the be all end all of facts, its usually better to have something to back them up....other than elementary school comebacks at least......christ.....is this the kind of response yer looking for? is this why yer bringing all this stuff up? if so you are a sad sad man......

and i know because the big guage i have in my yard says its all getting low. if i say i have it it must be true right? it was just posted on the internet....

Wow Scooter, that really hurt my feelings, and this from someone who defended Ovo to the very end. I suppose when it's a fellow commie you allow them to say whatever they want. If I'm not mistaken, we've ridden and met face to face and I really though you were a nice guy. So I can be wrong about something...ahole.:roflmao2:

magicant
07-07-08, 11:53 PM
Tinrobot - please do your own research.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

http://www.insidefurniture.com/insidefurniture/images/world_is_flat.jpg

magicant
07-08-08, 12:01 AM
Wow Scooter, that really hurt my feelings, and this from someone who defended Ovo to the very end. I suppose when it's a fellow commie you allow them to say whatever they want. If I'm not mistaken, we've ridden and met face to face and I really though you were a nice guy. So I can be wrong about something...ahole.:roflmao2:You're also wrong about Ovo. He's Canadian.

1955
07-08-08, 12:03 AM
You're also wrong about Ovo. He's Canadian.

lol

tinrobot
07-08-08, 12:05 AM
Testy aren't we...it really hurts your feeling when someone tells you that you're wrong.

My feelings aren't hurt at all. You're just tossing out insults and not giving one shred of evidence to prove your claims - other than the moon landings were somehow faked.

How am I wrong? How is the science junk? Please give me some good science and some good numbers. I have a degree in physics, I can handle it. Gimme all you got.

tinrobot
07-08-08, 12:06 AM
Tinrobot - please do your own research.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

http://www.insidefurniture.com/insidefurniture/images/world_is_flat.jpg

Shhhhh.... nobobdy's supposed to know.

voltman
07-08-08, 12:07 AM
Don't make me send this thread to Mountain Biking.

1955
07-08-08, 12:14 AM
My feelings aren't hurt at all. You're just tossing out insults and not giving one shred of evidence to prove your claims - other than the moon landings were somehow faked.

How am I wrong? How is the science junk? Please give me some good science and some good numbers. I have a degree in physics, I can handle it. Gimme all you got.

I really think it's funny how all you libs expect me to have proof, all the while having absolutely none of your own, unless you count what Whoopi Goldberg reported on CNN. Do I really need a degree in physics to talk with YOU...ha ha ha.

tinrobot
07-08-08, 12:32 AM
I really think it's funny how all you libs expect me to have proof, all the while having absolutely none of your own, unless you count what Whoopi Goldberg reported on CNN. Do I really need a degree in physics to talk with YOU...ha ha ha.

So, you have no proof.

Just poorly thought out insults.

Whoopi Goldberg? Is that best you got? If you're gonna toss out insults, at least be somewhat clever.

Scootcore
07-08-08, 12:37 AM
ive been exposed......back to the island with me.

rooftest
07-08-08, 03:32 AM
But a properly formed sentence can start with the word "but".

Name one.

GP
07-08-08, 08:17 AM
Name one.But everything started to go terribly wrong when the hamburgers exploded.

Brian Sorrell
07-08-08, 11:55 AM
Too much reference to TeeVee around here. CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. are basically all drivel; they are slaves to bottom lines; they produce what sells in their target markets. But that's Capitalism, and I love America, so I'm ok with it. A cool thing about democracy is that we have branches of the government that attempt to present objective views of this topic for us. I submit the EPA for review: Climate Change Basic Info (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.html)

And here's the starting page for their "science" section: Climate Change Science (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/index.html), which includes such conclusions as "Most of the warming in recent decades is very likely the result of human activities", footnoting Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change, WG1, 2007 (http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html), as well as clarifying "very likely": "Throughout the science section of this Web site, use of "very likely" conveys a 90-99% chance the result is true."

It's not the best writing ever: a few misplaced modifiers here and there, passive voice to obfuscate causal relationships -- you know, the stuff we've come to expect from both big media and government productions. But given that our government is not currently run by a pack of whacko lefties, you really can't reasonably level that sort of criticism against the government's official positions and the science that they have used to determine those positions. The point is that if you want to get an overview of what scientists have to say, minus CNN's so-called liberal spin, this is a good place to start.

Of course, if you hate America, you can choose to ignore this.

tinrobot
07-08-08, 01:14 PM
Back to the issue of the suburbs.

Building cities wider and wider is an unsustainable model. The current rise in oil prices shines a huge light on the problem. Suburbs only work when energy is plentiful and cheap. When energy is expensive, it's too expensive to get around, and servicing such far flung communities with mass transit is difficult.

I think the days where suburbs expand without bound are coming to an end. Instead of cities getting wider and more far flung, they will start to get taller and more dense. Little city centers and downtown areas will naturally start to spring up in each of the communities and make the suburbs look more like little cities, with a layout that's more amenable to walking, biking, and mass transit. This will also foster more of a sense of community. None of these are bad things, and I can't wait for the end of suburbia.

1955
07-08-08, 02:09 PM
Back to the issue of the suburbs.

Building cities wider and wider is an unsustainable model. The current rise in oil prices shines a huge light on the problem. Suburbs only work when energy is plentiful and cheap. When energy is expensive, it's too expensive to get around, and servicing such far flung communities with mass transit is difficult.

I think the days where suburbs expand without bound are coming to an end. Instead of cities getting wider and more far flung, they will start to get taller and more dense. Little city centers and downtown areas will naturally start to spring up in each of the communities and make the suburbs look more like little cities, with a layout that's more amenable to walking, biking, and mass transit. This will also foster more of a sense of community. None of these are bad things, and I can't wait for the end of suburbia.

What planet are you from, what you say is what you'd like see, not what will happen. The burbs will continue to grow as long as there is a market and people want a home of their own, business will need the work force and move to where the people are located.

1955
07-08-08, 02:11 PM
Too much reference to TeeVee around here. CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. are basically all drivel; they are slaves to bottom lines; they produce what sells in their target markets. But that's Capitalism, and I love America, so I'm ok with it. A cool thing about democracy is that we have branches of the government that attempt to present objective views of this topic for us. I submit the EPA for review: Climate Change Basic Info (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.html)

And here's the starting page for their "science" section: Climate Change Science (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/index.html), which includes such conclusions as "Most of the warming in recent decades is very likely the result of human activities", footnoting Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change, WG1, 2007 (http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html), as well as clarifying "very likely": "Throughout the science section of this Web site, use of "very likely" conveys a 90-99% chance the result is true."

It's not the best writing ever: a few misplaced modifiers here and there, passive voice to obfuscate causal relationships -- you know, the stuff we've come to expect from both big media and government productions. But given that our government is not currently run by a pack of whacko lefties, you really can't reasonably level that sort of criticism against the government's official positions and the science that they have used to determine those positions. The point is that if you want to get an overview of what scientists have to say, minus CNN's so-called liberal spin, this is a good place to start.

Of course, if you hate America, you can choose to ignore this.

The bureaucracy of the government, those people that work in DC are mostly liberals. Not only that, but there is NO conservatism in DC, just people that want to get elected.

Indolent58
07-08-08, 02:47 PM
The bureaucracy of the government, those people that work in DC are mostly liberals. Not only that, but there is NO conservatism in DC, just people that want to get elected.

In America, political ideologies either from the left or the right or sideways are always framed and promoted by people who want to be elected. If there is no conservatism in DC I wonder what you would consider to be conservatism and where it would be found.

As for the bureacracy of government, I spent 18 years in DC spanning the Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton Administrations. Hiring is theoretically non-partisan except high level political appointees, but in truth both sides tend to hire people made in their own image. Thing is, over time it sort of averages out as administrations change so the bureaucracy is a mix of people. True enough, people in the EPA tend to care about the environment, and people in the Pentagon are generally not pacifists, but I would think that that's a good thing. Why would you want people doing a job that they didn't believe in?

Brian Sorrell
07-08-08, 02:53 PM
The bureaucracy of the government, those people that work in DC are mostly liberals. Not only that, but there is NO conservatism in DC, just people that want to get elected.

So what you're saying is that Bush is an ineffective leader? I didn't expect that.

Now that you've read through all of the basic scientific conclusions (and I'm impressed with the speed at which you have done so), minus the influence of CNN's interpretative machine, what are the deficiencies? I'm particularly interested in what methodological problems you have found. Furthermore, given the problems that you have uncovered, I'm interested in your recommendations for improving future research.

For my part, I find the analysis to be well documented and fairly even-handed. Some of the referenced studies are, admittedly, too technical for me, but from what I grasp of them, the corresponding paraphrases in the EPA documentation seem generally quite good. Just as an example: Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere:Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences (http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/default.htm) is cited here: Temperature Changes (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html), and though the analysis in the report is rather grueling to slog through -- particularly the methodological issues addressed in the Appendix regarding some of their regression analysis techniques -- the discussion on the EPA site remains quite crisp and on target. I'm curious to know which points / paraphrases you find problematic.

Regarding tinrobot's point about changes in urban planning: what he "wants to see" is currently happening around Southern California. I recommend reviewing some of the redevelopment plans for Pasadena, Riverside (http://www.riversideca.gov/redev/) -- which has partly based its plans on Pasadena's, Irvine, etc. Again, I resist citing interpretations as espoused by "the media", and I resist buzzword-shortcuts (such as "conservative", "liberal", "left", "right", etc.: those are TeeVee words.) Sound analysis is paramount here.

Brian Sorrell
07-08-08, 02:55 PM
{clip**
True enough, people in the EPA tend to care about the environment, and people in the Pentagon are generally not pacifists, but I would think that that's a good thing. Why would you want people doing a job that they didn't believe in?

Nicely stated.

tinrobot
07-08-08, 03:02 PM
....business will need the work force and move to where the people are located.

That would be India.

--

tinrobot
07-08-08, 03:02 PM
What planet are you from, what you say is what you'd like see, not what will happen. The burbs will continue to grow as long as there is a market and people want a home of their own....

I totally agree, the suburbs will continue as long as there is a market. That market came into existence in the 1950's, when cars became cheap and abundant. Suburbs don't work without cheap cars. When cars become too expensive to operate, then the market will change and people will demand different things. It's already happening.

If you want to talk about markets, look at the real estate market. A house in the middle of Los Angeles costs twice as much per square foot as one 30 miles away in the less dense suburbs. This wasn't the case 30 years ago when the suburbs were booming and the cities decaying, but today the demand has shifted, and so has the real estate market. The reason is not because the houses are better, the reason is higher demand for the location. Like they say in real estate - it's location, location, location.

blarnie
07-08-08, 03:21 PM
As for the centralization theory in effect. Look no further than Glendale, ala the "Americana at Brand".

http://www.americanaatbrand.com/

The Media is not a roving band of liberals with an agenda set on destroying middle American values. Rather, the Media is a well financed group of capitalists set on providing low impact, read fluffy, news and entertainment, meant to fill the gaps in between the ad space. Very corporate, very conservative. All about the bottom line. All about selling more HFCS to middle Americans. TV is specially made for Republicans, conservatives and capitalists. It serves their interests more than anyone else.

Calling "enviromentalists" whackos is akin to calling your mom a whacko because she wants you to keep your room clean.

The saddest part of the whole deal is how humanity has been to reduced to an economics equation and some defend the perpetrators as they falsely believe they're part of "the group" when they are really simply saps.

Indolent58
07-08-08, 04:37 PM
A
Calling "enviromentalists" whackos is akin to calling your mom a whacko because she wants you to keep your room clean.


Umm.. actually I did call her a whacko over my room. Was that wrong? Oops. :eek:

My bad. I guess I should apologize. Still, that was 35 years ago - maybe she forgot about it. :rolleyes:

1955
07-08-08, 04:39 PM
So what you're saying is that Bush is an ineffective leader? I didn't expect that.

Now that you've read through all of the basic scientific conclusions (and I'm impressed with the speed at which you have done so), minus the influence of CNN's interpretative machine, what are the deficiencies? I'm particularly interested in what methodological problems you have found. Furthermore, given the problems that you have uncovered, I'm interested in your recommendations for improving future research.

For my part, I find the analysis to be well documented and fairly even-handed. Some of the referenced studies are, admittedly, too technical for me, but from what I grasp of them, the corresponding paraphrases in the EPA documentation seem generally quite good. Just as an example: Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere:Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences (http://www.climatescience.gov/Library/sap/sap1-1/finalreport/default.htm) is cited here: Temperature Changes (http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recenttc.html), and though the analysis in the report is rather grueling to slog through -- particularly the methodological issues addressed in the Appendix regarding some of their regression analysis techniques -- the discussion on the EPA site remains quite crisp and on target. I'm curious to know which points / paraphrases you find problematic.

Regarding tinrobot's point about changes in urban planning: what he "wants to see" is currently happening around Southern California. I recommend reviewing some of the redevelopment plans for Pasadena, Riverside (http://www.riversideca.gov/redev/) -- which has partly based its plans on Pasadena's, Irvine, etc. Again, I resist citing interpretations as espoused by "the media", and I resist buzzword-shortcuts (such as "conservative", "liberal", "left", "right", etc.: those are TeeVee words.) Sound analysis is paramount here.

As you may have surmised, I didn't read your report (give me a break, like even you read it)...I also will not watch the Algore's movie, nor do I need or would I want to subject myself to a Michael Moore movie. You don't have to read or watch that garbage, it's everywhere...you can't get away from it, it's in big media, movies, commercials, adds...everywhere.

I'm also no fan of Bush either, but only because he's not a conservative or a conservative leader. He's very middle of the road and has been a large factor in the liberalization of the Republican party. I do vote Republican, as you may have figured out by now, but I do not call myself one, I am a conservative. All you have to do is look at the media hound, liberal that the Republicans are nominating and you should know that they are no longer a conservative organization.