Training & Nutrition - A different kind of diet

So, I'm really bit into fitness, weight loss, strength training, and of course biking. I bought the Tour de France for Dummies (thinking that in 5 years, with awesome amounts of training, I could do it, not knowing that it's invite only), some bike magazines, looked online... and I cant seem to find a good diet for me. I'll admit, I'm a bit picky, but I have one huge road block - I'm a vegetarian. I'm healthy as far as eating habits go, but whenever I buy fitness magazines and they tell you how to get a gorgeous torso in 4 weeks (along with the eating plan), there's always chicken, fish and eggs - none of which I eat. Can someone give me some advice? Thanks!

-Heather

More vegetables, less pasta, breads and cheese.

So, I'm really bit into fitness, weight loss, strength training, and of course biking. I bought the Tour de France for Dummies (thinking that in 5 years, with awesome amounts of training, I could do it, not knowing that it's invite only), some bike magazines, looked online... and I cant seem to find a good diet for me. I'll admit, I'm a bit picky, but I have one huge road block - I'm a vegetarian. I'm healthy as far as eating habits go, but whenever I buy fitness magazines and they tell you how to get a gorgeous torso in 4 weeks (along with the eating plan), there's always chicken, fish and eggs - none of which I eat. Can someone give me some advice? Thanks!

-Heather

The chicken, fish and eggs are protein sources. If you do not know how to get the required amount and type of protein from veggie sources, I suggest you rethink being a vegetarian. - TF

The chicken, fish and eggs are protein sources. If you do not know how to get the required amount and type of protein from veggie sources, I suggest you rethink being a vegetarian. - TF

+1

As a vegetarian you should really know what your options are for high protein foods. Here's a quick guide:

http://www.happycow.net/vegetarian_protein.html

Also http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/ has many people who can help you out with a diet plan. I used those boards a lot when I first switched to vegetarianism.

Heather,

I'm still working on a set diet to help with training, but as of now I tend to eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, as well as nuts, seeds and beans. I try to start my day off by making a smoothie with bananas, ice, (rice / almond / coconut, depending) milk, protein powder, flax oil and whatever other fruits I have in the kitchen. I'll also throw in peanut or almond butter a lot of the time. I've been slacking on this lately, but throwing some greens into your fruit smoothies is a GREAT way to get nutrients.

Also, check out the Clif Bar "Builder" bars. Each bar has 20g of protein, and they actually taste pretty good. My flavor recommendations? Peanut butter or Mint Chocolate. Regular Clif Bars will still get you about 10g of protein per bar.

As far as protein powders go, I've used soy, rice and also a blend of soy, rice and pea protein. So far, the blend of the three (Can't remember the brand off hand) has been my favorite. Wasn't as impressed with the soy. The rice proteing (MLO Brown Rice Protein Powder) is pretty alright too.

Also, as far as diets go, you could read up on some of the articles on veganbodybuilding.com (http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=menu_nutrition)
(Of course, not all of that will be applicable, as most is geared towards body building, but there is definitely information for those of us who are just looking for a solid diet...)

Hope some of this was helpful!

-L

I've been training as a vegetarian for about 15 years. I don't worry about my diet at all: I just eat lots of fruit, veggies, carbs, etc., whatever I want. Then I supplement with whey protein at a rate of 40g-60g/day, depending on my workout demands. You could use soy protein isolate if you don't do dairy. These protein sources come mail order in 5 to 10 lb. containers and are not expensive compared to meat sources.

i've had good results with weight watchers. You pretty much can eat what you want within reason. You just monitor your portions. I lost almost 30 pounds in 3 months last summer. I was riding alot as well. I started it back a couple of weeks ago and have already dropped 10 pounds

The chicken, fish and eggs are protein sources. If you do not know how to get the required amount and type of protein from veggie sources, I suggest you rethink being a vegetarian. - TF

It's not that I don't know what to eat, but some things - when you're training for a triathalon, tour, what have you- are better to eat than others. Of course, my options are pretty limited because I've cut so much out of my diet, but the last few posts contained information I didn't really know. All I really eat is fruits, veggies, pasta and boca stuff and tofu when I feel like making a dish. So again, it's not that I don't know what to eat - I'd just like to see more options :)

Im on a see food diet. I see food I eat it lol.

Sorry for the bad joke I just had to say it ha.

It's not that I don't know what to eat, but some things - when you're training for a triathalon, tour, what have you- are better to eat than others. Of course, my options are pretty limited because I've cut so much out of my diet, but the last few posts contained information I didn't really know. All I really eat is fruits, veggies, pasta and boca stuff and tofu when I feel like making a dish. So again, it's not that I don't know what to eat - I'd just like to see more options :)

I just read too much into the post.

I find most vegetarians do eat better - not because they do not eat meat (in my opinion), but because they are more knowlegable about everything they eat. On the other other hand, it scares me that some really don't know how to get the nutrients neccessary on a veggie diet.

TF

I love racing against 99% of veggies and 99.99% of vegans. Maybe they know more about their food than the average bear, but it's very tough to get all of the nutrition you need to train well on a restricted diet. Regardless of what they know, they seem to ignore some very simple truths, which, IMO, relates back to being a veggie in the first place.

Im on a see food diet. I see food I eat it lol.

Sorry for the bad joke I just had to say it ha.

That will always be a favorite joke of mine. :)

I'm guessing that you're a female based on the name Heather. If so, you would not have been able to race the TDF anyway.

However, if you're still interested in doing something like that check out the female version of the TDF:
Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale http://www.velo-feminin.com/

....whenever I buy fitness magazines and they tell you how to get a gorgeous torso in 4 weeks (along with the eating plan)....

Can someone give me some advice? Thanks!

-Heather

Stop reading the magazines. They have the "new, greatest plan/workout/diet" monthly. I often see advice one month that contradicts info from another month in the same magazine. Set a plan, stick with it, and ignore the latest "fad" advice.

However, the specific diet advice you need will depend on what your goals are. Are you trying to add lean mass, lose weight in general, get stronger, build endurance, build speed, or etc?

Interesting factoid: Per 100 calorie serving, romaine lettuce has more protein than beefsteak. That's one reason vegetarians and vegans almost never have a protein deficiency.

Iron (for women and children) and vitamin B12 are more likely to be deficient, but that's very rare also.

Interesting factoid: Per 100 calorie serving, romaine lettuce has more protein than beefsteak. That's one reason vegetarians and vegans almost never have a protein deficiency.

True enough. The people most likely to have a protein deficiency (if they are getting sufficient calories) are those eating a diet of junk food.

Interesting factoid: Per 100 calorie serving, romaine lettuce has more protein than beefsteak. That's one reason vegetarians and vegans almost never have a protein deficiency.

Iron (for women and children) and vitamin B12 are more likely to be deficient, but that's very rare also.

Of course that ignores the uncomfortable quantity of romaine lettuce that one would need to consume in order to reach 100 calories. And that also ignores any question of protein quality, both in terms of bio-availability and amino acid completeness.

Actually, I doubt if anybody in America or Europe--including vegans--has a protein deficiency, unless they have some eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia, or serious medical diseases.

Very strict vegans, who don't even eat cultured soy products like tempeh or tofu, might develop a B12 deficiency, but I've read that that's very rare. Female vegans might need an iron supplement (so might some female omnivores) because iron is lost in menstruation.

Of course that ignores the uncomfortable quantity of romaine lettuce that one would need to consume in order to reach 100 calories. And that also ignores any question of protein quality, both in terms of bio-availability and amino acid completeness.

Whereas you're ignoring the more basic fact that protein deficiencies are pretty much non-existent in wealthy countries like the US, barring serious medical or psychological disorders. Researchers who tried to study Americans with protein deficiencies literally had to give up because they couldn't find any subjects.

You might want to read some literature about nutrition that was published within the last 30 years. Your ideas about bioavailability and amino acid composition are outdated. Almost every food--vegetable or animal--contains protein, and a reasonably varied diet provide all the essential amino acids.

Interesting factoid: Per 100 calorie serving, romaine lettuce has more protein than beefsteak. That's one reason vegetarians and vegans almost never have a protein deficiency.

Iron (for women and children) and vitamin B12 are more likely to be deficient, but that's very rare also.

"Factoids" like this is one reason people get in trouble. You would have to eat SEVEN POUNDS of romaine to get the protein in one six ounce steak. And you still would NOT get all the essential amino acids that the body cannot synthesis.

If you are going to go on a veggie diet (or any diet), be sure to know the facts (not the pop-culture factoids) that will keep you healthy.

TF

However, the specific diet advice you need will depend on what your goals are. Are you trying to add lean mass, lose weight in general, get stronger, build endurance, build speed, or etc?

I'm trying to get lean, build speed and endurance. I don't have a weight issue. I'm 5'2 at 125 lbs. Maybe I'd like to lose the extra 5 lbs, but it doesn't matter. I have an athlete's figure - more broad and thick boned, so I'm not a little skinny-mini that fits into a size 16 in girl's pants. People ask me why I turned veggie, and I'll answer you:

It always put me on a guilt trip that my fiance is a veggie and I'd be eating steak in front of him. I couldn't imagine how unfair it was for him to watch.
More importantly, I wouldn't want a cow coming up to me with a tranquilizer, stabbing me with it, stuffing me with hormones and then cooking me for dinner. Besides the fact that it's completely unrealistic, I still wouldn't like it. I'm sure they don't like it either.
... And it just grosses me out. I feel cannibalistic. I'm also transcendentalist.

Just as a side note - I've had enough with people laughing and making stupid jokes. Just accept that I do it, and please don't make fun. Thanks :)

Whereas you're ignoring the more basic fact that protein deficiencies are pretty much non-existent in wealthy countries like the US, barring serious medical or psychological disorders. Researchers who tried to study Americans with protein deficiencies literally had to give up because they couldn't find any subjects.

You might want to read some literature about nutrition that was published within the last 30 years. Your ideas about bioavailability and amino acid composition are outdated. Almost every food--vegetable or animal--contains protein, and a reasonably varied diet provide all the essential amino acids.

I'm not sure where in my response I asserted that individuals in wealthy countries suffer from protein deficiencies to any degree. You might want to highlight for me the section where I said that, or at the very least, brush up on your reading comprehension.

I'll make it shorter this time: all things being equal, to claim that romaine lettuce represents a good source of protein is patently absurd.

Just jumping in here --- it's not like you necessarily know you have a protein deficiency. It's more like, you don't put on muscle easily (because your body is breaking it down to use), you have more lactic acide buildup than other people, your muscles don't recover as fast as other people's, you get more headaches, need more sleep, etc. It could be anything on like a sliding scale from serious to just a nagging something that you don't even notice until you eat finally get enough good, digestable protein at a meal. Just because you can finish a tough workout doesn't mean you're not deficient in something.

I think cruelty to animals is the best reason --- scratch that, the only good reason --- to go veggie. It's not better for your health. But I can definitely see the angle of not wanting to be a part of animal suffering and abuse.

When I train though, the last thing I want to do is cut out entire food groups! Lol! I need all the food I can get, it just gets burned off so fast.

Red beans mixed with wild rice and brown rice is a good, cheap, protein-rich thing you could have for dinner. Wild rice has more protein than brown rice, and unlike lettuce, 100 calories is actually doable without needing a second stomach to hold all the roughage. Lol. Add some Tapatio and make it spicy!

I'm not sure where in my response I asserted that individuals in wealthy countries suffer from protein deficiencies to any degree. You might want to highlight for me the section where I said that, or at the very least, brush up on your reading comprehension.

I'll make it shorter this time: all things being equal, to claim that romaine lettuce represents a good source of protein is patently absurd.

Your statement about bioavailability and amino acid completeness led me to believe that you were passing along the common misconception that vegetable protein is inferior in composition to animal protein. I'm pretty sure that's what you meant, but if I'm wrong I apologize.

Absurd or not, it's a fact that Romaine has more protein than beefsteak. That's all I claimed. I never claimed that it's a good source of protein. My point was that almost all foods contain protein, therefore it's very easy to get protein in a varied diet even if you don't eat animal products (or Romaine lettuce).

The myth that you need to eat supplements or even meat to get enough protein is one of the most widespread misunderstandings in nutrition. Unfortunately, a lot of peopole believe this and similar lies, which I believe are fostered by the various meat and dairy trade groups. As far as I can tell, you belive these falsehoods and you like to spread them on the internet. Again, if I'm wrong I will apologize.

Eat a variety of foods with an emphasis on fresh fruits and vegetables. Nuts and grains are wonderful for calories and protein. Quinoa has the highest amount of protein for a grain, and you can either sprout it or cook it. Have fun with food and experiment with different kinds of veggies and recipes. Eating healthy can be a pleasure!

So I have a question, just because I was thinking about this vegetarian protein vs animal protein thing. I read (not saying it's true, just saying I read it) that meat is a better source of protein than vegetables because more of the protein gets absorbed as the food breaks down in your digestive system, whereas, in vegetables --- roughage and whatever -- it doesn't break down as easily and more goes right out the other end, so it may have just as much quality protein, but only a little bit of it ever makes it into your system to be used by your body. That seems to make sense, since a lot of leafy greens are good for you because they have fiber, which doesn't get absorbed --- insoluble, right?

And also, if there can be better / worse sources of carbs and sugar (HFCS vs fructose from fruit), and better / worse sources of fat (avocados vs Twinkies), and better / worse sources of hydration (Coke vs Cytomax) why can't there be better / worse sources of protein (meat vs romaine lettuce)?

"Factoids" like this is one reason people get in trouble. You would have to eat SEVEN POUNDS of romaine to get the protein in one six ounce steak. And you still would NOT get all the essential amino acids that the body cannot synthesis.

hm. i wonder what would take longer: to die of a protein deficiency from eating nothing but romaine lettuce or die from scruvy from eating nothing but six ounce steaks? :)

So I have a question, just because I was thinking about this vegetarian protein vs animal protein thing. I read (not saying it's true, just saying I read it) that meat is a better source of protein than vegetables because more of the protein gets absorbed as the food breaks down in your digestive system, whereas, in vegetables --- roughage and whatever -- it doesn't break down as easily and more goes right out the other end, so it may have just as much quality protein, but only a little bit of it ever makes it into your system to be used by your body. That seems to make sense, since a lot of leafy greens are good for you because they have fiber, which doesn't get absorbed --- insoluble, right?

And also, if there can be better / worse sources of carbs and sugar (HFCS vs fructose from fruit), and better / worse sources of fat (avocados vs Twinkies), and better / worse sources of hydration (Coke vs Cytomax) why can't there be better / worse sources of protein (meat vs romaine lettuce)?
The fiber has nothing to do with it. The issue has to do with essential amino acids--meaning amino acide that the body can't synthesize, so they have to be ingested as food. Animal products contain all of the essential amino acids, vegetable products do not. It used to be thought that vegetarians had to blend foods carefully to make sure that they were getting "complete" or "complementary" protein. For example, they were told to always eat beans with rice, or to eat wheat with nuts. However, over the last 30 years or so, it was noticed that vegetarians never have protein deficiencies, enen when they don't follow the food blending guidelines. This is probably because almost all foods contain some protein, so you get the proper blend as long as you eat a normally varied vegetarian or vegan diet.

Here is wikipedia's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid) take on it:


All essential amino acids may be obtained from plant sources, and even strict vegetarian diets can provide all dietary requirements, provided they are based on a variety of whole plant foods. Some believe that careful monitoring of nutrient levels is important in strict vegetarian diets, but there are virtually no cases of protein-deficiency among populations consuming adequate calories. The only common cases of protein-deficiency occur among populations that are chronically undernourished

No, I'm not talking about essential amino acids. I always thought that combining foods to get a "complete" protein was BS anyway, since as soon as you eat something, your body starts breaking it down. Your stomach is not an assembly line, it doesn't work that way.

I read --- and I'll have to find it again, because it wasn't all about fiber --- that the nutrients listed on the label of any food are the totals of what it contains, but it doesn't necessarily mean that your body will absorb all of it. An example would be fat soluble vitamins. If you eat them without also eating fat, they'll go right through you. The article said that the easier a food is for your body to digest, the greater percentage of total nutrients you'll be able to absorb. And meat (they said) was easier to digest than tofu, and easier to digest than beans / legumes, and easier to digest than most grains. So you'd actually absorb a greater total number of grams of protein from the meat than the other sources.

And I actually know a vegan, and another vegetarian who were both medically diagnosed with a protein deficiency (separately). Their doctors advised them to start eating meat, but since neither of them wanted to go that route, they worked out a better eating plan that beefed up (pardon the pun) their protein intake.

No, I'm not talking about essential amino acids. I always thought that combining foods to get a "complete" protein was BS anyway, since as soon as you eat something, your body starts breaking it down. Your stomach is not an assembly line, it doesn't work that way.

I read --- and I'll have to find it again, because it wasn't all about fiber --- that the nutrients listed on the label of any food are the totals of what it contains, but it doesn't necessarily mean that your body will absorb all of it. An example would be fat soluble vitamins. If you eat them without also eating fat, they'll go right through you. The article said that the easier a food is for your body to digest, the greater percentage of total nutrients you'll be able to absorb. And meat (they said) was easier to digest than tofu, and easier to digest than beans / legumes, and easier to digest than most grains. So you'd actually absorb a greater total number of grams of protein from the meat than the other sources.

And I actually know a vegan, and another vegetarian who were both medically diagnosed with a protein deficiency (separately). Their doctors advised them to start eating meat, but since neither of them wanted to go that route, they worked out a better eating plan that beefed up (pardon the pun) their protein intake.
Well, let us know if you remember the details. Keep in mind that a lot of doctors don't know as much about nutrition as your grandmother does, and the food industry is always spreading falsehoods in order to get people to eat more of a certain food. I stick to reputable, scientific sources and the consensus is that vegetarians don't need to worry about protein whatsoever. Vegetarians have longer life expectancies than meat eaters, and they get sick less often (as a group).

I think it's particularly amusing that so many people who are into fitness believe the self-serving lies of the food industry. Protein is one of the areas where this is most obvious. Most people who engage in light to moderate exercise are convinced that they need to supplement with whey or soy protein--on top of all the chicken breasts and egg whites they're always eating. The crooks that run the big chemical plants that manufacture that crap are laughing all the way to the bank. And so are the quacks who write all the training diet books.

Well, let us know if you remember the details. Keep in mind that a lot of doctors don't know as much about nutrition as your grandmother does, and the food industry is always spreading falsehoods in order to get people to eat more of a certain food. I stick to reputable, scientific sources and the consensus is that vegetarians don't need to worry about protein whatsoever. Vegetarians have longer life expectancies than meat eaters, and they get sick less often (as a group).

I think it's particularly amusing that so many people who are into fitness believe the self-serving lies of the food industry. Protein is one of the areas where this is most obvious. Most people who engage in light to moderate exercise are convinced that they need to supplement with whey or soy protein--on top of all the chicken breasts and egg whites they're always eating. The crooks that run the big chemical plants that manufacture that crap are laughing all the way to the bank. And so are the quacks who write all the training diet books.

Yeah, it's crazy, people can be hella religious when it comes to food. And it doesn't matter what you tell them, they believe what they want to and hang onto it really tightly. That's why I don't cut any food groups out. We all know what the bad stuff is and what the good stuff is. More vegetables, fewer Twinkies. More time on the bike, less time on the couch. And just be thankful you have enough money that you actually have the luxury of choosing what you get to eat every day, instead of just taking what's there (and having it not really be enough) like 80% of the world has to.

10 out of 10 people will die. Lol.

When I was in college I was vegetarian, and a weight lifter, and never really had any problems getting enough protein, without supplements. Beans and brown rice, or other whole grains mixed with some sort of legume, and you are good. I am of the opinion that you do need to mix your amino acids into the same meal, since your body will start putting it into your bloodstream at the same time, but I could be wrong, just going off of experience and logic.
Most of us get way, way more protein that we need, so if you are not having any adverse symptoms, like chronically sore muscles you are probably good.