Living Car Free - Biker irresponsibility?

I'm not sure what to make of these articles. When I visited the UK in
the '90s I was shocked at how polite car drivers were toward pedestrians
compared to the US. There seems to be some anger at cyclists on the
"pavement" meaning side walk - I think. It seems to me that in my town
as transportational biking becomes more popular, the car drivers are becoming
more polite.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7497432.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/7496757.stm

Respect goes both ways. If we want motorists to respect our right to use the road, then it behooves us to ride in a responsible, lawful manner.

I'm not sure what to make of these articles. When I visited the UK in
the '90s I was shocked at how polite car drivers were toward pedestrians
compared to the US. There seems to be some anger at cyclists on the
"pavement" meaning side walk - I think. It seems to me that in my town
as transportational biking becomes more popular, the car drivers are becoming
more polite.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7497432.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/7496757.stm

I'm not so sure. When I was in London earlier this year with a German college, we stepped into the road and nearly got run over. His comment was "That's right, I forgot we're in England", which was exactly what I was thinking as well... The amount of respect shown to pedestrians here in Stockholm is almost absurd. If you walk along the pavement on a less busy street, you merely have to glance at the road for the cars to stop. This somehow used to irritate me, until I noticed that drivers in most countries drive like homicidal maniacs.

Respect goes both ways. If we want motorists to respect our right to use the road, then it behooves us to ride in a responsible, lawful manner.
You've said it much more eloquently than I've ever heard. Every time a cyclist rides against traffic, runs stop signs or red lights, rides on the sidewalks, rides without lights at night, weaves in and out of traffic or forgets to use a helmet (which is required here) it tarnishes our reputation just a little more.

Every time a cyclist rides against traffic, runs stop signs or red lights, rides on the sidewalks, rides without lights at night, weaves in and out of traffic or forgets to use a helmet (which is required here) it tarnishes our reputation just a little more.

Fine.
As long as every time a motorist speeds, passes unsafely, stops beyond the white stopline, refuses to yeild the right of way, gabs on their cellphone, or texts on their blackberry while driving, it tarnishes THEIR reputation a little more.

I mean shyt... if we're going to hold all cyclists responsible for the actions of some scofflaws, doesn't it make sense to do the same for vehicles with MUCH greater potential for injury and death?

Fine.
As long as every time a motorist speeds, passes unsafely, stops beyond the white stopline, refuses to yeild the right of way, gabs on their cellphone, or texts on their blackberry while driving, it tarnishes THEIR reputation a little more.
That works for me. There are a lot more cars than bikes around here. Although it shouldn't be necessary, we still have to convince the motoring public that we belong on the roads.

Honestly, I can say I dont' follow the laws the same way I do in a car when I am on a bike. Like if taking the side walk a block or two will get me to my destination safer and quicker..I take the side walk. But, I am usually coasting a long..not asking peds to get out of my way but just going with the flow of the side walk.

I yield at most stop signs..if there aren't cars there already. I stop at red lights. I probably give you all a bad name. Because I feel that as a bicycle I can go places cars can't and I will utilize that to my benefit all the time. No use in me going four blocks out of my way to avoid a one way street. When I can take the one way street on the side walk 1 block up and be at my destination.

I know this thread is drifting, but...bikes are fundamentally different from automotives. Why should they have to follow the exact same rules? There is a functional alternative in this country: "Idaho-style" stop as yield, stop-light as sign.

I know this thread is drifting, but...bikes are fundamentally different from automotives. Why should they have to follow the exact same rules? There is a functional alternative in this country: "Idaho-style" stop as yield, stop-light as sign.
My impression of the functional rules in DC is anything goes so long as you don't bother other people or you are obeying the traffic laws. I've blown through red lights in front of cops many times, I just don't do it if I'll strafe a pedestrian or make a car hit its brakes. Friends have gotten tickets from cops having a bad day and I'll get mine someday. It seems like as long as you aren't bothering anyone else the cops leave you alone. The suburbs are different- an Alexandria cop pulled me over for speeding at like 5:30 am. Don't think I'm a roadie type I was going downhill.

I know this thread is drifting, but...bikes are fundamentally different from automotives. Why should they have to follow the exact same rules? There is a functional alternative in this country: "Idaho-style" stop as yield, stop-light as sign.

Well, y'see, there's this thing called the law. It can be changed. If you do not like the way it works, you can write to your legislators and work to get it changed. You can join political groups and lobby.

Running stop signs and scaring pedestrians doesn't get the law changed. It just means now the pedestrians (who are almost always drivers too) are scared of you and want you to go away. And now *they* have a motive to lobby against any changes.

Ain't democracy grand?

Well, y'see, there's this thing called the law. It can be changed. If you do not like the way it works, you can write to your legislators and work to get it changed. You can join political groups and lobby.
...
Ain't democracy grand?

Yeah, cause that's exactly how democracy works. It's not like they present you with the choice between two almost identical political parties, that are going to act as dictators for the following mandate period. Right...

Democracy isn't so much the tyranny of the majority anymore, it's the tyranny of the chosen. Honestly, do you think there is such a big difference between a two-party system and a one-party system?

Yeah, cause that's exactly how democracy works. It's not like they present you with the choice between two almost identical political parties, that are going to act as dictators for the following mandate period. Right...

Democracy isn't so much the tyranny of the majority anymore, it's the tyranny of the chosen. Honestly, do you think there is such a big difference between a two-party system and a one-party system?

You're talking national, presidential politics. There's more to being involved in a Democracy than just voting for the president. There are state and local politics as well, with plenty of opportunities to attend public hearings and voice grievances about existing laws, or lobby for new ones. Plus you can contact your local representative to town or city politics, also state Representative and Senator--some of them are actually fairly accessible and like hearing from constituents. Voting for the president every 4 years is bare minimum involvement in the Democratic process here in the US--there's plenty of opportunity to quit b!tch!ng about it and actually make a difference on the state and local level.

Try running for your city council or state legislature on a pro-bicycle platform.

Try running for your city council or state legislature on a pro-bicycle platform.

You don't have to do it as your whole platform. Maybe you got other issues in your community you see as problems besides just bike issues--it could certainly be a plank in your platform, and if you think it would affect your campaign negatively, you could bury it in a general environmental statement somewhere... then once you get in office, roll out your bike proposals and see if they fly. Or better yet, get the lay of the land, make some allies, and then recruit them to support your plan as well. Just because you're a bike freak doesn't mean you have to wear it on your shoulder during a campaign...

You don't have to do it as your whole platform. Maybe you got other issues in your community you see as problems besides just bike issues--it could certainly be a plank in your platform, and if you think it would affect your campaign negatively, you could bury it in a general environmental statement somewhere... then once you get in office, roll out your bike proposals and see if they fly. Or better yet, get the lay of the land, make some allies, and then recruit them to support your plan as well. Just because you're a bike freak doesn't mean you have to wear it on your shoulder during a campaign...

You misunderstood me. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was suggesting that someone who wants more bicycle-friendly local government policies should put his money where his mouth is and get involved in local politics.

I would follow the same rules of the road if they worked for me. For instance, if I am supposed to be on the road, why do I have to pull over to the sidewalk and hit the cross sign for pedestrians? And I'd be more than happy to be on the road and not in the way of pedestrians if I wasn't risking my life at times doing so. I'm all for rules of the road and being courteous, just let's get them down consistant.

I generally obey the laws of the road, although sometimes I bend the rules if it will keep me safer of course. And I could be blowing through stopsigns and traffic signals all the time and I'd still be obeying the law more than 99% of the motorists I see. In fact, I'd say, as a cyclist, I obey the law more often than any motorist in town.

At intersections I slow down enough to keep myself and others safe. But I don't necessarily stop at all of them, or even most of them. I don't think this reflects badly on cyclists, but I don't much care if it does.

If there are cars waiting at the intersection, I generally line up with them rather than filtering forward. I think it's rude to take cuts, even though it's perfectly legal.

Respect goes both ways. If we want motorists to respect our right to use the road, then it behooves us to ride in a responsible, lawful manner.I think it's more that you get what you give. if you give respect, you get respect. if you give bad attitude, you get bad attitude. Of course, that goes both ways too.

Where I live, it is legal for motorcycles, scooters, and bikes to split lanes. Additionally, some lights have a green for cyclists that gives them maybe 15 seconds head start on motorized traffic. Even the concept of "legal" varies by location.


Respect goes both ways. If we want motorists to respect our right to use the road, then it behooves us to ride in a responsible, lawful manner.

The one thing I sometimes do is to run red lights. I generally stop, wait for the light to turn green. If, after several minutes, it hasn't, I conclude my presence will not trip the switch ... so I take off.

The only other option available is to get off the bike, cross lanes to the sidewalk, press the cross button and head back to the lane. I have done this several times and conclude that it is even more dangerous than running a light.

I do genuinely feel the rules are a little different for cyclists.

Here as in many places, the accepted practice and the law are quite different. The law requires vehicles (with or without motor) to stop at stop signs, and I think it may even require them to stop for three seconds. Cars and bicycles both tend to run stop signs, but not at speeds over 10-15mph, and the police generally don't stop folks for that. For cars, speed limits are more of a suggestion - if you're going no more than 15mph over the speed limit, police do not seem to be interested in stopping you. Especially since at about 5% of the vehicles are going more than 15mph over the speed limit if the driver thinks they can without hitting anything. Meanwhile, on a bicycle, if there is no traffic coming you can run a red light in front of a police car (or police supervisor van) and get no reaction.

I always obey traffic laws. I stop at four way stops. I stop at traffic lights. If the light doesn't change, I ride to the curb and punch the crosswalk signal. If I'm at an intersection with a lot of cars, I get at the back of the line and wait my turn. Drivers do notice what cyclists do, and I think it's important to set a good example. Those cyclists who violate traffic laws really piss me off, because, among other things, they make drivers think all cyclists are inconsiderate a**holes.

BTW, I agree with the victim's family that the rider got off way too easy.

If I'm at an intersection with a lot of cars, I get at the back of the line and wait my turn.

What's this all about? If the road is wide enough for a car to pass me when the car is going faster than I am, then it is wide enough for me to pass the car when I'm going faster than the car. Last time I checked my local laws it was OK for me to pass cars or take the lane if there isn't room for cars to pass. One of the advantages of biking is that you go to the head of the line at red lights. Since cars pass bikes all the time around here it reads like you're advocating second class status for bikers. Don't cars pass bikes where you drive?

What's this all about? If the road is wide enough for a car to pass me when the car is going faster than I am, then it is wide enough for me to pass the car when I'm going faster than the car. Last time I checked my local laws it was OK for me to pass cars or take the lane if there isn't room for cars to pass. One of the advantages of biking is that you go to the head of the line at red lights. Since cars pass bikes all the time around here it reads like you're advocating second class status for bikers. Don't cars pass bikes where you drive?

Hmm, never thought of it that way.

What's this all about? If the road is wide enough for a car to pass me when the car is going faster than I am, then it is wide enough for me to pass the car when I'm going faster than the car. Last time I checked my local laws it was OK for me to pass cars or take the lane if there isn't room for cars to pass. One of the advantages of biking is that you go to the head of the line at red lights. Since cars pass bikes all the time around here it reads like you're advocating second class status for bikers. Don't cars pass bikes where you drive?

I don't know where you went to kindergarten, but my teacher told us that it's nice to take turns and mean to take cuts. So I'm with bragi on this one.

I don't think it means accepting second class status. It means that I don't think I'm in a special class of traffic--I'm just regular traffic like the cagers are--no better and certainly no worse.

Besides, since traffic signals are timed to favor cars, I'm more often at the head of the line than the rear anyway.

I don't think it means accepting second class status. It means that I don't think I'm in a special class of traffic--I'm just regular traffic like the cagers are--no better and certainly no worse.


Thats what I'm saying, if they can pass us we can pass them, no better no worse. If its not rude for them to cut in front of us its not rude for use to move the the head when we can do so safely. Not passing and breathing fumes isn't politeness its subservience.

The one thing I sometimes do is to run red lights. I generally stop, wait for the light to turn green. If, after several minutes, it hasn't, I conclude my presence will not trip the switch ... so I take off.

It's probably a commentary on my enormous size, but I never have that problem ;-) I wonder if the automatic traffic counters have been reading me as a heavy motorcycle all this time.

It's probably a commentary on my enormous size, but I never have that problem ;-) I wonder if the automatic traffic counters have been reading me as a heavy motorcycle all this time.

BTW, exactly how do those things work in the first place? Is there any trick to getting them to turn over?

I never stop at stopsigns unless there is other traffic there. I do it because I have an extremely good sense of my surroundings on my bike because I have all the time in the world to put my unobstructed, uninhibited vision to use when approaching. And at a blind corner I could probably hear a hydrogen car coming from all the noise that car tires make. Unless mine is the only stop sign, or there's somebody else there I wouldn't think of wasting my momentum, I worked hard for it.

I stop for red lights unless I'm the only set of wheels in sight. Don't know where it came from but I've got respect for them.

I absolutey do filter through slow/stopped traffic when there's room for me and I ride on the sidewalk when I think I can. I do not and will not follow laws to the letter because I can tell the difference between myself on a bicycle and myself in a car, and because I realize that I'm much more fundamentally dependent on my own wits and judgement on the bike. I wear my helmet about 50% of the time on a bike but, get this, 0% of the time when I'm trying to walk on Ottawa sidewalks after an hour of freezing rain (emphasis on the 'trying').

There's idiot-proof and there's reckless and there's risky and there's courteous and there's efficient, I'm not about to go looking for my definition of each in traffic law.

BTW, exactly how do those things work in the first place? Is there any trick to getting them to turn over?

Most are wire loops, sometimes double loops. When metal enters the loop it changes the current, I think its called impedance. The electronics can detect the presence of metal when it enters the loop. Like a metal detector. Sometimes they detect a bike sometimes they don't. I was involved in a bike project where they installed a special bike detector loop ( at Eisenhower and Clermont for DC metro people). They painted a little "T" mark on the pavement where bikes were supposed to stop. We went out to test it. It even detected the little bit of metal from the bottom bracket and wheels in my carbon fiber framed road bike. On may of them you can see the black tar strips where the loops are. If it is a double loop they seem to detect you bike if you ride up between the two squares. The traffic guys can change the sensitivity but you don't want the light changing due every time a cager tosses a beer can out at the light do you?

Back to biker irresponsibility... Today I saw a bike locked up on the wheel chair ramp in such a way that a wheel chair could not pass. The biker had a choice and chose to block wheel chair users rather than lock to the outside. The bike racks were full of course but there were plenty of other spaces. In my mind this is far worse than hurting cager feelings by cycling past them in a traffic jam. Here in DC I became more sensitive to the plight of wheelchair users because the Metro rules say that bikers have to use the wheelchair facilities. I reported the bike to the metro police but the officer wasn't interested. After I said "It might seem like a minor thing to you but it isn't minor to someone in a wheel chair who gets stuck on the ramp." his eyes kind of lit up like he'd check into it. Any of us could be smacked down by a car driver where we would become wheelchair users too.