Professional Cycling For the Fans - Manuel Beltran tested positive after Saturday's stage

Here we go again...

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/79845/l-equipe-reports-that-liquigas--manuel-beltran-tested

He is on my Kenda team. :(

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2008/news/story?id=3483087

Read that one. I don't trust the testing. It doesn't seem reliable to me, from what I've read.

Hey, another former Postal Tour rider gets nabbed.

Who's turn is it next? Popo?

Hey, another former Postal Tour rider gets nabbed.

Who's turn is it next? Popo?

Lance?

I kid, I kid!....sorta.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2008/news/story?id=3483087

Read that one. I don't trust the testing. It doesn't seem reliable to me, from what I've read.

It depends on whether it was detected in his blood or urine.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/06/26/sports/NA-SPT-EPO-Study.php

The urine test is the one that may not be reliable, and its important to note, that its mainly not reliable in detecting EPO when its known to be there.

The blood test is a different story.

Okay who had stage 7 in the pool?

The EPO tests require a lot of interpretation; also, since EPO is now available as a generic, there are lots of variants out there. However, false negatives are a much bigger concern - and apparently more common - than false positives.

Beltran may well be innocent; as hard as it may be, hopefully everyone (including ASO) will wait for the "B" test until making a judgment, particularly if it involves bouncing the whole team.

It depends on whether it was detected in his blood or urine.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/06/26/sports/NA-SPT-EPO-Study.php

The urine test is the one that may not be reliable, and its important to note, that its mainly not reliable in detecting EPO when its known to be there.

The blood test is a different story.

According to Velo News (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/79845/police-search-hotel-after-beltran-positive), it appears that the urine test was used.

Hey, another former Postal Tour rider gets nabbed.

Who's turn is it next? Popo?

Gives "Going Postal" a new meaning.

At this point, if you get caught doping you're just an idiot.

Hey, another former Postal Tour rider gets nabbed.

Who's turn is it next? Popo?


Lance?

I kid, I kid!....sorta.

Shhhh... you might awake his lawyers!!


At this point, if you get caught doping you're just an idiot.

or on Astana, former Postal, or former Discovery...


Gives "Going Postal" a new meaning.

Nice one :D

At this point, if you get caught doping you're just an idiot.

i agree. if you can't not dope by now, it's time to retire.

Yet another one of Armstrong's boys. Add Beltran's name to the rest. Hamilton, Landis, Haras , ??????

Beltran had very high Hct Values just prior to the start of the tour, so he was singled out for extra testing, and bingo!! liquigas is serious about racing clean, that why they hired ivan basso a few months ago


I was at work today, thinking " i wonder when the dope scandals will start?" and was going to post a thread to that... the french testers beat me to it... I have been out of the loop for a while but what i gather is that the UCI is not doing the testing, the french anti doping people are, correct? That will be beltrans and liquigas first excuse.. that the french have a vendetta against the spanish/italian etc... then they will say that the uci tests were better etc.. hahahaaa!!

or maybe the Frenchies decided to start tossing guys out so they look like they are tough on dope, but no frenchies will be tested.. slick kinda what the belgians did several years ago on a TdF stage that finished in Antwerp. at the last minute the testing was done by flemish labs, and no belgians were tested that day, not even the Belgian Stage Winner Mark Wauters, who also took the Jersey that day.... hmmmm.....

Beltran had very high Hct Values just prior to the start of the tour, so he was singled out for extra testing, and bingo!! liquigas is serious about racing clean, that why they hired ivan basso a few months ago


I was at work today, thinking " i wonder when the dope scandals will start?" and was going to post a thread to that... the french testers beat me to it... I have been out of the loop for a while but what i gather is that the UCI is not doing the testing, the french anti doping people are, correct? That will be beltrans and liquigas first excuse.. that the french have a vendetta against the spanish/italian etc... then they will say that the uci tests were better etc.. hahahaaa!!

Excellent point. Welcome back by the way. The Tour forum could use a junkie.

Michael

Of course Liquigas is serious about the fight against doping -- they're a cycling team.

At this point, if you are doping you're just an idiot.

Fixed.

Don't teams understand that if they dope, sponsors will pull out? It's pretty simple.

teams do understand that, but riders understand if they dont dope they will lose their job if they cant get results naturally.

I may be in the minority but I was a little dissapointed to read on cyclingnews that Liquigas is going to stay in the tour, considering that Astana and Confidis getting the boot last year. It's always on the rider, but not the management. Liquigas seems to be in the doping spotlight more often recently, with the Di Luca issues last year, then they signed Basso and left the AIGCP a couple of months back, and now Beltran.

Sure, the anti doping mantra gets a little old after a while, but it's better than headlines like this, right?

he IS tricky, no?
I for one would love to see everyones hematocrit level at the start of the tour. how many 50%ers do you think?

From cyclingnews.com:

"While reports initially stated that should Beltrán's B sample come back positive, the team would be forced to withdraw from the race, the German television station ZDF received confirmation from the Amaury Sport Organistion (ASO) that the team could remain in the race.

"The station also reported that the team will escape the 100,000 euro penalty which was part of the ASO's anti-doping contract signed by all teams prior to the Tour, because they removed Beltrán immediately after the positive A-sample.

While I'm not nearly as critical of the testing and the French labs, this bothers me. While I realize false positives are rare, they can happen. But if a team has a rider with a positive A, it's quite clear that they do not have time to wait around for the B sample to be tested.

According to Velo News (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/79845/police-search-hotel-after-beltran-positive), it appears that the urine test was used.

It doesn't specify which test Beltran failed-it states he was one of the group of riders that urine tests were taken from Saturday. The earlier article stated ALL 180 riders were given a blood test that day. Beltran may have failed either or both.

I may be in the minority but I was a little dissapointed to read on cyclingnews that Liquigas is going to stay in the tour, considering that Astana and Confidis getting the boot last year. It's always on the rider, but not the management. Liquigas seems to be in the doping spotlight more often recently, with the Di Luca issues last year, then they signed Basso and left the AIGCP a couple of months back, and now Beltran.

Sure, the anti doping mantra gets a little old after a while, but it's better than headlines like this, right?

What I don't get is why Astana was singled out for the non-invite to the tour. In my view, if the tour is serious about fighting doping, they should have non-invited Confidis and Rabbobank as well as Astana.

Apparently the police are now questioning Beltran. Chances are he wouldn't have been available to ride today's stage anyway....

Keep in mind that in 07, Cofidis voluntarily withdrew; Astana was asked to leave, but wasn't kicked; Rabobank didn't leave.

Astana has an extensive history of doping offenses, dating back to their previous sponsor (Liberty Seguros). I assume ASO also wants to make an example of them, not only to the teams but to the UCI.

I just heard a report on CNN that there could be as many as 20 abnormal test results but none high enough to be posative...HUH?
Dwayne

Yet another one of Armstrong's boys. Add Beltran's name to the rest. Hamilton, Landis, Haras , ??????

More former Posties: "Here's the tally of caught/confessed former Posties, with the caveat that none of them were ever busted while on Postal: Roberto Heras, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, Frankie Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters (no outright confession but if you're not seeing this you're not paying attention), an "unnamed" former Postie on the 1999 Tour team who admitted doping to the NY Times along with Andreu and who may or may not be Jonathan Vaughters, and now Beltran. Six or seven is the tally, depending on the anonymous NY Times source."---Bicycling Magazine

Opened the Richmond Times-Dispatch this morning, and they FINALLY did an article covering the Tour, rather than just reprinting the Associated Press' two column inch day's synopsis.

Of course, it was all about Beltran's bust, and had nothing to do with the race itself.

A couple of days ago the sports editor did his weekly column, this time about winners and losers of the month. His comment regarding cycling was, "Can someone please put this sport out of its misery already?"

I'm getting tired writing nasty letters to the paper . . . . . . :bang:

I just heard a report on CNN that there could be as many as 20 abnormal test results but none high enough to be posative...HUH?
Dwayne

EPO boosts the hematocrit, which is the percentage of the volume of blood made up of red blood cells. A hematocrit of 50 (50% of the blood volume is red blood cells) is the upper limit of "normal", and the drug cops assume that a hematocrit over 50 indicates doping. Some people naturally have a hematocrit over 50, or get over the limit with exercise. I understand that many riders had crits right at or just below 50 at the start of the race, which were considered abnormal but not in violation.

Blood doping, in which your own blood is removed and the red cells separated out and later replaced, raises the hematocrit without drugs and is very tough to prove. That's why they need a rather arbitrary level, above which you're in violation, and below which you are not.

Having had EPO while getting chemo, I can tell you that it is magic juice. I suspect for an endurance athlete is can turn a good day into a great day.

jeez louise.....:rolleyes:

I haven't seen liquigas in the coverage all morning. Did they pull out, or are they still in this thing??

No mention in the coverage, but I'm really puzzled.

never mind... there they are.

I failed to see the dope thread but dang, you know these mofos are going to be testing like a mofo!

Why try to get away with it?

is a Lihooo hoozer

loser :roflmao2:

I'm not buying this time. Irresponsible testing, lab owned by Tour, piss poor procedures, yet another old discovery rider. Does not pass the smell test. Not even a contender, attacking the domestiques. Yet no team has the balls or money to fight city hall. I would not ride in that farce unless I had private testing to keep the liars out of my pocket.

When will the tour learn they can't pick and choose. I am for the first time doubting the tests on Hamilton and Heras. Landis's case was a jokel

If you want to clean up cycling, get clean yourself, first. Independent labs that are capable of complex testing. A and B samples should never even enter the same lab. How can anybody claim objectivity.
I guess anyone who rode with Armstrong should quit cycling, that's the message. I guess if you own the race, the newspaper and the testing, you can due what you want to control who wins, or who doesn't.

I would rather watch the cyclists decide, not ASO. What a crock.:mad::mad:

I'm not buying this time. Irresponsible testing, lab owned by Tour, piss poor procedures, yet another old discovery rider. Does not pass the smell test. Not even a contender, attacking the domestiques. Yet no team has the balls or money to fight city hall. I would not ride in that farce unless I had private testing to keep the liars out of my pocket.

When will the tour learn they can't pick and choose. I am for the first time doubting the tests on Hamilton and Heras. Landis's case was a jokel

If you want to clean up cycling, get clean yourself, first. Independent labs that are capable of complex testing. A and B samples should never even enter the same lab. How can anybody claim objectivity.
I guess anyone who rode with Armstrong should quit cycling, that's the message. I guess if you own the race, the newspaper and the testing, you can due what you want to control who wins, or who doesn't.

I would rather watch the cyclists decide, not ASO. What a crock.:mad::mad:


What does ASO have to gain by reporting a positive in the tour? Each time this happens, the tour gets a heaping of bad press, and remember that last year stations in Europe were pulling coverage due to the doping fiascos. Ultimately, the ASO and TDF is a business who's top priority is profitability, so even if there is some agenda against Postal, stories like this and the 9 other "abnormal blood values" in this year's tour is going to significantly hurt their bottom line in a way that would do much more damage to themselves than to Lance Armstrong.

Also, don't forget that the ASO has a cozy relationship with Vaughters, one of those ex-Postals.

It doesn't specify which test Beltran failed-it states he was one of the group of riders that urine tests were taken from Saturday. The earlier article stated ALL 180 riders were given a blood test that day. Beltran may have failed either or both.

Reading between the lines, I think that it is still safe to say it was the urine test that he failed. From the article:

"Beltran, best known for helping Lance Armstrong to the last three of his seven Tour de France wins, tested positive for the blood booster erythropoietin (EPO) on the Tour's opening stage, according to top anti-doping officials on Friday."

"Beltran, who finished 25th on the day, was one of several riders randomly chosen to submit urine samples following the stage. An unnamed anti-doping official at the Tour confirmed the result of the test to AFP, and his team has removed him from the race while insisting that his is an isolated case."

NO question that the one article I found first through Google strongly hinted doping surrounding Armstrong, fwtw

What is the price that cycling is paying for doping? Four years ago, on a Saturday during the Tour, there would be 200 or 300 different people viewing or posting to "Tour de France" threads. Today...there are just 20 people viewing the Beltran thread.

That 90% loss of participation reflects the views of the American public: professional cycling is just the dirty cousin of professional wrestling.

The good news is, the revulsion against pro cycling does not seem to have reduced the number of folks riding bikes. I see as many or more people out riding this weekend as I did on weekends four years ago...perhaps fewer people on $5,000 bikes wearing "Lance A-Like" clothing, but plenty of regular folks enjoying a ride on regular bikes.

What is the price that cycling is paying for doping? Four years ago, on a Saturday during the Tour, there would be 200 or 300 different people viewing or posting to "Tour de France" threads. Today...there are just 20 people viewing the Beltran thread.

That 90% loss of participation reflects the views of the American public: professional cycling is just the dirty cousin of professional wrestling.

The good news is, the revulsion against pro cycling does not seem to have reduced the number of folks riding bikes. I see as many or more people out riding this weekend as I did on weekends four years ago...perhaps fewer people on $5,000 bikes wearing "Lance A-Like" clothing, but plenty of regular folks enjoying a ride on regular bikes.

As I pointed out in another thread, a 2006 NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/sports/othersports/07sandomir.html?_r=4&oref=slogin&oref=login&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) article attributed the "Lance effect" as being responsible for the dramatic decline in TDF viewership. It's not the doping that has generated the decline... No Lance = declining American interest in the sport. We're narcissistic that way.


Bob Roll, an OLN commentator, agreed that having Armstrong win every Tour since the seventh year of the Clinton administration was a wonderful albatross for a network that reaches just under 70 million homes. "It was a windfall, like winning the lottery," he said by phone from Vitr・ France, where today's Stage 6 will end. "There's no way to overcalculate his impact on the American audience. Without Lance, we wouldn't be where we are."

What does ASO have to gain by reporting a positive in the tour? Each time this happens, the tour gets a heaping of bad press, and remember that last year stations in Europe were pulling coverage due to the doping fiascos. Ultimately, the ASO and TDF is a business who's top priority is profitability, so even if there is some agenda against Postal, stories like this and the 9 other "abnormal blood values" in this year's tour is going to significantly hurt their bottom line in a way that would do much more damage to themselves than to Lance Armstrong.

Also, don't forget that the ASO has a cozy relationship with Vaughters, one of those ex-Postals.

What does the ASO gain? They attack a small team, a rider with no economic or political clout. I am tired of paying homage to the high road/columbia and Garmin/chipotle teams. They talk a great game. They won't be singled out. I've heard vaughters over and over, "our team is different". Bull...........
20 years of history of doping, look at high road. We changed the name, the sponsor.... we're a clean team. Hypocrites suck. Either cycling is still full of doping or it's not. I do not believe that Manuel Beltran woke up yesterday and decided to put EPO in his system while participating in the Tour de Farce.
It's just as stupid as Floyd Landis one day decided to load up on testosterone and put in the ride of his life. Gee, nobody will notice..............................

Until the testing is taken totally away from the Race organizers and done independently, it is not valid.

The real value of the UCI was to help cycling and cyclists grow economically. More races, more prizes, more sponsors, more coverage. Is this so bad/????? I would miss a tour as weak as this one (it sucks), the Giro was better; to see a Tour of America and Tour of China. That is what ASO fears. Screw them.

That 90% loss of participation reflects the views of the American public: professional cycling is just the dirty cousin of professional wrestling.

Speaking as someone who's been riding bikes since I was a kid...

Doping is only one of a few reasons I find pro racing so uninteresting.

There are moments that I really dig, though, like the four-rider sprint to the finish a couple days ago.

But, besides doping, the idea of "protected" riders seems, on the surface, like a team is just ushering some Chosen One to a race win.

It's such a team sport, yet I don't see many accolades being given to the teams, only individual riders.

Somebody mentioned a book in another thread that explains the tactics, so maybe I need to give it a read. For now, though, I just don't get it.

On topic: Dammit, I don't want a Cannondale-equipped team to get knocked off the Tour; my CAAD8 will be sad. :( ;)

What does the ASO gain? They attack a small team, a rider with no economic or political clout. I am tired of paying homage to the high road/columbia and Garmin/chipotle teams. They talk a great game. They won't be singled out. I've heard vaughters over and over, "our team is different". Bull...........
20 years of history of doping, look at high road. We changed the name, the sponsor.... we're a clean team. Hypocrites suck. Either cycling is still full of doping or it's not. I do not believe that Manuel Beltran woke up yesterday and decided to put EPO in his system while participating in the Tour de Farce.
It's just as stupid as Floyd Landis one day decided to load up on testosterone and put in the ride of his life. Gee, nobody will notice..............................

Until the testing is taken totally away from the Race organizers and done independently, it is not valid.

The real value of the UCI was to help cycling and cyclists grow economically. More races, more prizes, more sponsors, more coverage. Is this so bad/????? I would miss a tour as weak as this one (it sucks), the Giro was better; to see a Tour of America and Tour of China. That is what ASO fears. Screw them.


Liquigas is small? Are you high? They won the Giro last year, they signed Basso this year, and they have a number of strong, decently known riders on their roster that have made a pretty big mark on some of the classics.

Your post still does not explain why ASO would actually benefit from having a positive dope test on their tour. It's terrible publicity and makes a huge impact on their sponsors as well.

I'm not saying that ASO had a problem with Armstrong, especially with all the smack talk post retirement, but you have to look at it logically. ASO is ultimately run by businessmen, and the tour losing coverage contracts and marketing potential makes absolutely zero sense. There is absolutely nothing to gain from them attacking Liquigas, although I feel as though they should have been kicked out. Remember that this is the team that pulled out of the UCI and AIGCP to sign Basso, a rider who, after being cornered, admitted to being involved in Operation Puerto.

I personally think the ASO and UCI fight is ********, but that has nothing to do whatsoever with the doping positive. I fail to see why you brought it up.

As business ventures go, declines in demand for a particular product are what good business people try to avoid. There's been a decline in demand for the TDF over the past several years. So given that reality, what ought the savvy business person do to reverse it? First, you correctly identify what it is that's responsible for the decline, and second, you fix it.

We're all attributing the decline to doping and thus misidentifying the problem.

By focusing on doping as the culprit, we're able to reconstruct the problem in moral terms, which allows us to place blame on behavior rather than on something we have no control over, namely, the loss of a key figure – "if individuals x, y, or z would just do the right thing, then all our problems would be solved." "I can't believe these stupid idiots would take such risks..." And thus we feel good about ourselves because we know what the right thing to do is to solve this problem and if only those idiots would realize what we already know.

It's really a crock of s.h.@.t., and this bandwagon mentality virtually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Armstrong's absence from the Tour is the true culprit here, and unless an equivalent replacement can emerge, in terms of generating the same sort of fervor for American audiences, a clean TDF won't make any difference.

Doping "scandals" are red herrings.

For the American audience...

I'm sure Tour fervor is alive and well in the places it's been for years.

Michael

What is the price that cycling is paying for doping? Four years ago, on a Saturday during the Tour, there would be 200 or 300 different people viewing or posting to "Tour de France" threads. Today...there are just 20 people viewing the Beltran thread.


And that's mostly due to the fact that Armstrong is not racing anymore.

I work in dialysis. HCT is a MAJOR factor in my field. All of my pts use a HCT booster. Aranesp (EPO is yesterdays med and I haven't used that in years) is the drug of choice.

Dehydration significantly raises HCT in people.

Blood tests should be done BEFORE the race....not after.


It is simple understanding...dehydration concentrates the blood...thus providing a false High HCT..


Ask any Nurse or Doctor.

For the American audience...

I'm sure Tour fervor is alive and well in the places it's been for years.

Michael

And how's that working out for Tour sponsors post-Armstrong? Yeah, reality sucks sometimes...

Took years to get in and will take years to get out. Hope it works to get it out.