Training & Nutrition - Sore knees and yucky out of saddle cadence

Am I spelling cadence right?

Anyway, I have been spinning Friday and Saturday (first time back on the bike in six weeks time), and I am on my new road bike on a trainer, with clipless pedals for the first time in my life.

I am using look pedals with 9 degrees of float. Today, my knees hurt. I have heard and read horrible things about what mis-adjusted pedals can do to one's knees. However, I am wondering if it is too early to tell. The guy at the bike shop I go to is excellent, he made sure the cleat matched with the ball of my foot, and he watched me spin for a bit in the store.

Do you guys have any advice?

Also, I was just reading something about heels vs toes down while pedaling and the article said that it didn't matter which you did, but to be consistant, since too much power is lost when changing the heel position during the pedal stroke. I am hardly consistant. I start to pay close attention to it, then my attention is diverted by shifting (new bike). Should I also give this a bit more time?

Now to the yucky cadence when pedaling out of the saddle. My cadence is not smoothe at all when I am out of the saddle. Which actually leads me to another question - should I even be out of the saddle? Another article I read a while ago (over a year ago) said that it was debateable as to whether or not one got more power out of a pedal stroke when one was standing or sitting. The writer's personal belief was that one expends too much energy standing, rather than sitting. However, whenever I attend a spinning class, the instructor has us out of the saddle..... So, does anyone have advice on the pedaling while out of the saddle issue? How does one improve one's cadence while standing?

Am I just reading too much? (that is inedeed a posibility).

Sorry for such a lengthy post - I am all questions I am afraid.

I love my bike.

Anastasia

Originally posted by Anastasia
I am using look pedals with 9 degrees of float. Today, my knees hurt. I have heard and read horrible things about what mis-adjusted pedals can do to one's knees. However, I am wondering if it is too early to tell. The guy at the bike shop I go to is excellent, he made sure the cleat matched with the ball of my foot, and he watched me spin for a bit in the store.

It could be the way your pedals are set up, however, it could also be that you're not warming up properly at the start of the ride. Generally, I spin easy on the early part of a ride and gradually build up to top pace. I've had knee problems myself in the past, and I believe this was the cause.


Originally posted by Anastasia

Also, I was just reading something about heels vs toes down while pedaling and the article said that it didn't matter which you did, but to be consistant, since too much power is lost when changing the heel position during the pedal stroke. I am hardly consistant. I start to pay close attention to it, then my attention is diverted by shifting (new bike). Should I also give this a bit more time?

I think it just needs some time and a few km to get used to the bike and cycling generally. See how it goes over the next couple of weeks.


Originally posted by Anastasia

Now to the yucky cadence when pedaling out of the saddle. My cadence is not smoothe at all when I am out of the saddle. Which actually leads me to another question - should I even be out of the saddle? Another article I read a while ago (over a year ago) said that it was debateable as to whether or not one got more power out of a pedal stroke when one was standing or sitting. The writer's personal belief was that one expends too much energy standing, rather than sitting. However, whenever I attend a spinning class, the instructor has us out of the saddle..... So, does anyone have advice on the pedaling while out of the saddle issue? How does one improve one's cadence while standing?


I find getting out of the saddle does provide additional power on a temporary basis, so the only time you really should be seriously pedalling out of the saddle is when you are climbing a steep gradient. Pedalling out of the saddle too much will expend a lot of energy, so doing it all the time probably isn't advisable. As far as improving the cadence while standing goes, I tend to thing that will also come with time and practice.

Hope this helps.

I hardly ever get out of the saddle. Only for a very brief spurt. I am pretty big, have short legs and a large upper body, so it seems that I am sort of out of balance when I am out of the saddle. However, I am practicing this more and more just to have another strategy available.

It would seem that this might be especially hard to do in a trainer as 1) you are on the level and not climbing, adding a different geometry; and (2) you simply do not have the typical resistance you would have while climbing the type of hill that would normally require you to get out of the saddle.

Chris L's points are good. And, yes, maybe you are reading too much!

If you've been off your bike 6 weeks, chances are your knees would hurt even with your old pedals. But seriously, my experience was that I had to ride clipless a while before my pedaling adapted to being fastened to the pedals. 9 degrees of float is a reasonable amount... riding platform pedals with straps allows a lot more than that. Considering that you got help setting them up from an experienced cyclist, I'd say give 'em some more time, and just pedal naturally (thinking about it may cause you to pedal funny). Same advice with heel vs. toe down. There have been world class cyclists that used both styles.

As far as out of the saddle cadence... fugetaboutit. The reason for standing is to use your body weight to add power to your stroke for climbing or hard acceleration (okay... also to restore circulation to your bum). And that, by definition, means most of your power is going into the downstroke. It'll get smoother with experience, but never as smooth as seated pedaling. It isn't
supposed to be.

Having graduated from Art college I can say with authority that "yucky" is an inadequate adjective.

A decent cadence while out of the saddle is crazy. It may be possible at a spinning class but on a bike it would be rather hard to do safely.

For me, getting out of the saddle is useful only to rest different muscles, get the upper body in play, and let the blood flow.

Like ChrisL, the only time my knees give me problems is when I don't warm up enough.

got it - warm up easy spin - cadence around 75 or so?


You guys are extremely helpful - I am off to spin....


I love my bike,
Anastasia

I agree with everyone here about being out of the saddle only for short burst of acceleration and when climbing. Even then it is good to get in and out of the saddle and not spend all the time climbing out. This will tire you very quickly.

As for the heels up or down. My understanding is that if you are doing a "proper" pedal stroke that there should be some "ankling" involved. If you imaging that you are wiping mud of the bottom of your shoes at the bottom of the stoke you should be lowering you heel a little bit. This wiping motion should start at about the 3 o'clock position on you pedal stroke. On the up\forward stroke you should be lifting your heel again and pulling up and then pushing through from about the 9 o'clock position with your glutes. Do not over do it though as this will cause knee problems as well. Do what is comfortable and practice. You will find the groove eventually. Really concentrate on keeping smooth circles and keeping the pressure even on each leg by pushing and pulling with opposite legs at the same time.


Hope this is of some help.

Mike

You do get a touch more power out of the saddle but, you use a little more energy and oxygen. Standing is useful for shorter accelerations when climbing, chasing, sprinting etc. and switching back and forth from sitting to maintain speed to standing to accelerate or regain lost speed and to give some muscle groups a rest while working others ( a little harder).

I'd find a spiinning class that emphasized seated workouts with some limited standing phases.

MAKE SURE THE SADDLE ON EVERY BIKE THAT YOU RIDE IS POSITIONED IN EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION!!!!

Different saddle positons alone can CAUSE knee pain, be sure to check fore/aft positioning as well as up/down.

To check fore/aft position- drop a plumb bob, ( easily made with a string and a large nut or socket etc.), from the saddle nose and measure the distance from the Bottom Bracket Center to the string. This needs to be the same on all of your bikes, just like the saddle height needs to be the same
Ride Well
Pat

anastasia,


look pedals = knee pain


time pedals = ahhhh lovely......



cabledonut.

Hello all -

Knee pain is no longer - I took the hint on warming up for a longer period and it has helped a great deal. I have been using the Cyclerobix vid that came with the trainer, and I think I am getting half-decent workouts when I do interval training.

I've been doin' the "scrape the mud off thing" and my cadence has gotten
much faster - it's actually pretty darn amazing.

Again, thank you all for the many recommendations.;)

Anastasia


I love my bikes!

With floating cleats, I doubt that the fit would be the problem with knee pain. I find that when my knees chirp at me, that I need to ease off and increase my RPMs (spin).

Your out of the saddle cadence will never be anywhere near your seated cadence. I believe out of the saddle cadence is about 60 rpm and seated cadence can go over 100 rpm and be much smoother to boot.

Here is something you might try. I noticed that when I tried the stair climber machine that if felt a lot like out of the saddle climbing. You may try sessions on the stair climber to help get your muscles more in tune for out of the saddle climbing (if this is a big deal to you). I generally climb seated unless the hill is 8% or steeper.