Road Cycling - With all the EPO positive results now, how did Lance

I ate your chocolate squirrel.

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LOL cat knows all.

This might help too...

I ate your chocolate squirrel.

:roflmao:

Where did you get those clothes? At... the... toilet store?

Lance tested positive for a corticosteroid once

He had a doctor's prescription for that, and the authorities were aware.

Lance's father is Chuck Norris. 'nuff said.

Lance may have use "blood transfusions" Tyler was the first to get busted for it in 2004. Also (although there is no direct connection) Lance or one of his agents (Carmichael) may/did have connections with BALCO. Better racing though chemistry.

Lance was riding with just one ball, the others had a weight and comfort disadvantage

Cynical as I may be at times, I'm still not 100% convinced he doped. However likely from a common sense standpoint, he still managed to pass hundreds of tests under unfavorable circumstances (not like the French would help him cheat), was watched like a hawk during the latter part of his career, and managed to keep his name off every black list that netted untold dozens of other world class riders. At the very least, I'd infer that he doped less than all the guys rolling around at 55%.

For the sake of argument, if he doped, I'd guess his advantage was primarily informational. Lance had enough pull that I'm sure he knew exactly when every test was coming, what they were looking for, and was medically managed accordingly. No mission impossible style sample swaps, bribes, or organization wide conspiracies. There's too much motivation for any no-name insider to gain fortune and fame by outing Lance. There was probably 1 or 2 well connected, third party MD's who specialized in manipulating the sample levels to avoid red flagging.

Wherever the truth lies, no one can really argue that Lance was the best because of the dope as every single one of his rivals has now been caught red handed.

What about the testing of the old blood samples gathered before EPO tests existed. The testers wanted to see if their new EPO test worked by using samples where they assumed many were juiced. Didn't he "fail" that test? Didn't I read that while undergoing chemo and legitimately taking EPO he was tested and still passed? Also interesting that so many former Posties failed drug tests after joining other teams. They never failed when with Team Lance. It all kinda makes you wonder.

Tim

Oh, there is the condescension again. No insight, but most personality disordered people lack insight into their own dysfunctional thought patterns.

Your little exchanges remind me of a Soltis quote about Bobby Fischer. Mind you, I ain't Soltis in this case. You keep thinking you got me figured out. Like when I play chess, I am thinking 3 plys ahead.

You know you're going to lose. Even when I was ahead I knew I was going to lose."
- Andrew Soltis





I'm not whining or crying--just enjoying your logical leaps. They are frequent, long, and random. It's entertaining in its own strange way. Keep swingin'--you're bound to hit something sooner or later.

Ya ever get the feeling that Lance is sitting on his couch with a laptop, skimming the forums, and muttering to himself "You people seriously need to move on...."

One thing that is for certain, the French and the UCI would have wanted nothing more in the world, even more than a Frenchman winning the Tour, than to bring him down for doping, so I'm sure their efforts in trying were far more than what they are doing today with these idiot cyclists that keep getting caught.

This is a good post and thoughts. The whole idea that "everyone" was paid off and kept quiet is BS, because if someone were able to expose him, it would have been HUGE. Being that he is suppose to be kind of a dick (from people I know who have met him on several occasions), you would think someone would have been a rat.



Cynical as I may be at times, I'm still not 100% convinced he doped. However likely from a common sense standpoint, he still managed to pass hundreds of tests under unfavorable circumstances (not like the French would help him cheat), was watched like a hawk during the latter part of his career, and managed to keep his name off every black list that netted untold dozens of other world class riders. At the very least, I'd infer that he doped less than all the guys rolling around at 55%.

For the sake of argument, if he doped, I'd guess his advantage was primarily informational. Lance had enough pull that I'm sure he knew exactly when every test was coming, what they were looking for, and was medically managed accordingly. No mission impossible style sample swaps, bribes, or organization wide conspiracies. There's too much motivation for any no-name insider to gain fortune and fame by outing Lance. There was probably 1 or 2 well connected, third party MD's who specialized in manipulating the sample levels to avoid red flagging.

Wherever the truth lies, no one can really argue that Lance was the best because of the dope as every single one of his rivals has now been caught red handed.

Oh, there is the condescension again. No insight, but most personality disordered people lack insight into their own dysfunctional thought patterns.

Your little exchanges remind me of a Soltis quote about Bobby Fischer. Mind you, I ain't Soltis in this case. You keep thinking you got me figured out. Like when I play chess, I am thinking 3 plys ahead.

You know you're going to lose. Even when I was ahead I knew I was going to lose."
- Andrew Soltis

:roflmao2:

Like when I play chess, I am thinking 3 plys ahead.



http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50306893/Toilet_Roll_Paper.jpg

http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/confused.gif

If you're going to accuse someone, you should have a reason based on reality

Don't be ridiculous. That would pull the rug out from under half the threads on BF.

Lance won!?! Why no spoiler alert???*


*For those who absolutely need a spoiler alert, because there might still be one person in the world who hasn't caught up with recent TDF news.

Out of 150+ people, the only guy in the race not on performance enhancing drugs is also the winner?
We don't need proof Lance was on these things. We just need proof everyone else was and he beat them.
I know it's blasphemous to say such things but he got paid to win as a professional athlete. You guys act like he was out there doing this sh--it for free. There is a lot of money in winning and nothing in losing. He's just like everyone else only smarter.

To my rose colored sunglass wearing friend....


How could a non-doper with a natural crit level beat and dominate doped riders with crits at 55% and higher?

Answer?

THEY CANT!

Didn't a poster above describe how attempts at doping are aimed at producing a rider that has LA's natural, well documented attributes? People dope because they can't hang at the front on nature alone. Then who is this front they are trying to hang with? There's not one good, clean cyclist?

Besides, I do like the rose colored lenses for evening rides when it's bright, but not that bright. Nice road contrast.

This is a good post as well because I agree about the $ issue. Lance with endorsements was raking in about $20 million some of those years he was winning. So yes, the incentive was there. But for the same reason, he had more to lose. Look at Landis' life now.

If Lance got caught with all the Livestrong crap, he would have been the biggest fraud in history of any sport. That and his brush with death makes me think he would be crazy to risk all that, but who knows. I watched every Charlie Rose interview which were great and they talked about this.



Out of 150+ people, the only guy in the race not on performance enhancing drugs is also the winner?
We don't need proof Lance was on these things. We just need proof everyone else was and he beat them.
I know it's blasphemous to say such things but he got paid to win as a professional athlete. You guys act like he was out there doing this sh--it for free. There is a lot of money in winning and nothing in losing. He's just like everyone else only smarter.

The drug tests have been there for years. And as has been mentioned- Lance was a marked man and was the most tested athlete around. He never had a positive test- whilst others were getting caught.

It is up to you to make your own decision as to whether he doped- But Fact is he was never caught if he was.

get away with it? I say this because I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt but I am not naive. But being he was so marked, how did he get by without the "red handed" nature of these recent situations?
Testing for EPO especially later in his run was advanced enough but yet he never got caught.

My friend at work and other guys who follow cycling emphatically say without a doubt he doped with nothing other than a "gut feeling". But how did he get around it if that was the case? All that BS that his doctors were "better" makes no sense because science is science and it should have shown up. No? I understand that the % in the blood could be manipulated easily, but why are these guys getting slammed so quickly? Test may have improved a bit, but the only thing I would believe is if people were paid to look the other way because if not they would have slammed him.

Are your friends from Salem, MA or something? So the most tested person in the world is guilty because they just can't believe that he was that good. I hope your friends don't end up on the supreme court.
:deadhorse:

ok so lets say he did dope and so did everyone else. He still won 7 times.
I remember when he was in DSICO they had a special on him. They were saying how his WATTS output and ability to get oxygen to his muscles was off the charts. I am starting to beleive the half alien test lab theory. He was able under test conditions ride harder than anyone else. My understanding is that his training regiment would probably kill most of us mortals.. lol
Doping or not the guy could ride.

This is getting VERY old!!! It gives new meaning to, "Beating a dead horse".

After Lance retired, the French decided to make issue of some old blood sample, knowing full well he did not dope. He really is one of the few genetic supermen, who got the full benny if his mental and physical ability from the recovery of cancer.

Lance responded accordingly. "Shut up, or I'll come back and win it again!!!"

It was amazing how quickly they shut their traps.

I think there needs to be better evidence to discredit him. It could be all about genetics...there are such things as gifted athletes...and perhaps Lance Armstrong was just that...and more importantly he trained hard. I would say he is like the Michael Jordan of cycling. Not everyone can be like "Mike" so don't discredit the man for being the best.

Alright, it's time to reveal the truth. Lance's 7 wins was a covert op to help the French. Think Swordfish.

Say you're a French patriot, the grandson of a WW2 hero who fought Nazi's in the French Underground. It's post cold war mid-1990's and you're dismayed with how your country is so backward, soft and pliant. Why, your countrymen still don't use soap or shower curtains (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/80293/garmin-chipotle-s-will-frischkorn-reports-on-another-day-in)!

Through your connections with American cold war government operatives, you come up with a plan that will invigorate both the spirit of Frenchmen, as well as the French economy. With the TDF as the perfect vehicle, the plan involves bringing in American money and media attention by building an American racing team that will effectively crush all Euro opponents for 5 years running. The price to pay for the long term plan.

A discussion by the conspirators would have gone something like: "One up and coming American racer is a cancer survivor and a Texan? Perfect! America will love him, Euros will hate him. His yearly rival is a former East German??? This is too good to be true! And no matter what, no drug testing of him will ever reveal the truth. Agreed? Agreed."

Everyone wins. However, the Americans, being the greedy b****rds we are, stretched the dominance out to 7 wins instead of just 5. Then, after Lance's retirement, Floyd Landis had the balls to win without drugs! Well, the French had enough and nullified that win. Tell me I'm wrong.

get away with it? I say this because I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt but I am not naive. But being he was so marked, how did he get by without the "red handed" nature of these recent situations?
Testing for EPO especially later in his run was advanced enough but yet he never got caught.

My friend at work and other guys who follow cycling emphatically say without a doubt he doped with nothing other than a "gut feeling". But how did he get around it if that was the case? All that BS that his doctors were "better" makes no sense because science is science and it should have shown up. No? I understand that the % in the blood could be manipulated easily, but why are these guys getting slammed so quickly? Test may have improved a bit, but the only thing I would believe is if people were paid to look the other way because if not they would have slammed him.

What's next, a chain lube thread? Exploding carbon?

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~mdownes/bdhome/csm1.jpg

This man seen near Ricardo Ricco's hotel room this morning. If you have any information on who he might be, you are asked to please contact the UCI.

Look, I am a fan of Lance, but any reasonably intelligent person has to question. Eddy Merckx is unarguably the best cyclist ever and Lance's accomplishments although incredible, don't even compare to what Eddy did.

However, even the great Eddy Merckx was disqualified from races for amphetamine use. So even though I would want to believe Lance did it clean, even the GOD OF CYCLING was a cheater.

So to be honest, it is an equal playing field and Lance dominated. I would only want to know for sure not to discredit his accomplishments, but bolster his legend if he actually is proven to NOT have doped in the age of EPO and kicked all of their *****es clean.



I think there needs to be better evidence to discredit him. It could be all about genetics...there are such things as gifted athletes...and perhaps Lance Armstrong was just that...and more importantly he trained hard. I would say he is like the Michael Jordan of cycling. Not everyone can be like "Mike" so don't discredit the man for being the best.

the "he never tested positive" argument is a terrible one. my friend is tested randomly for illegal drugs & has never tested positive either, but that doesn't mean he doesn't hit the bong as soon as he gets home from work everyday.

the "he never tested positive" argument is a terrible one. my friend is tested randomly for illegal drugs & has never tested positive either, but that doesn't mean he doesn't hit the bong as soon as he gets home from work everyday.

More than likely it means they don`t care if he smokes pot ( don`t tell, we won`t ask) but if he had tested + for Coke , LSD or Smack and on the road he would be.

whos is this lance?

More than likely it means they don`t care if he smokes pot ( don`t tell, we won`t ask) but if he had tested + for Coke , LSD or Smack and on the road he would be.

oh, they do care. same goes with my other friend's parole officer. if he got busted he would've been thrown in jail.

"never tested positive."

lol- makes it sound like i hang around of irresponsible losers. turns out both of these guys hold very responsible & high-ranking careers.

Doping is over rated. Has anyone shown how much better any one particular person is via doping? Maybe it doesn't help at all? Maybe the guilt hurts more than the drug does?

Doping is over rated. Has anyone shown how much better any one particular person is via doping? Maybe it doesn't help at all? Maybe the guilt hurts more than the drug does?

Is that a serious question?

whos is this lance?

He is the break away and life's peloton is hounding him like a pack of yapping dogs.

Doping is over rated. Has anyone shown how much better any one particular person is via doping? Maybe it doesn't help at all? Maybe the guilt hurts more than the drug does?

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of professional cyclists who are endangering their health, risking lucrative contracts and risk being black-balled from a sport that they have dedicated their lives to. Do you really think any of them would be doing this if there were no substantial performance benefit to taking PEDs? (Here's a clue - the answer is "No").

As someone else mentioned earlier on, how does a rider climbing out of his deathbed, entering the most doped peloton since the death of Tom Simpson in the late 1960's, not only come back and remain competitive, but absolutely DESTROY his competition year-after-year, including some of the most talented riders of this generation who were doped up to their eyeballs?
His wins before then (including the World Championships) indicated a very talented rider, but nothing of the sort we saw on slopes of Sestriere in 1999, or 2000, or 2001...

If he truly is the genetic supermutant the "non doping" camp says he is, then we need Mama and Daddy Armstrong to go back and start cranking out as many new brothers and sisters for Lance as possible because their gene pool created a new breed of Superman. And if that's the case, why did we never see this before his cancer?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting some genetic advantage here, but what he did, in many ways, defies all basic logic without some kind of assistance.

Think about it - just a few years ago they supposedly had controls for riders that were doping. Can you name 10 riders between 2000 and 2005 that were busted for EPO? There have been that many in the last couple of years alone.

Lance rode during an era when EPO was new, the organizations were not that serious about catching people (as they are now that the sport is truly dying) and the technology to catch wealthy riders like Lance with the best doctors who were ahead of the curve was weak.

Many of Lance's teammates have admitted to doping and some of them have said that Lance was a doper. I think you would have to be naive to think that Lance did not dope at some point in his career. It would be like saying the mafia don was doing legitimate business only while everyone else was into drugs and prostitution. VERY UNLIKELY.

The ticket is to undergo chemo theraphy and thus nullify every drug test done to you. The reason I say this is a friend of my mine after doing chemo and fighting his tumor and 6 months later, he passed a drug test 3 days after he went on coke and weed binge. Chemo alters you're chemistry and makes drug detection harder.

Dr. Ferrari is not also a stupid vitamin doctor.

As someone else mentioned earlier on, how does a rider climbing out of his deathbed, entering the most doped peloton since the death of Tom Simpson in the late 1960's, not only come back and remain competitive, but absolutely DESTROY his competition year-after-year, including some of the most talented riders of this generation who were doped up to their eyeballs?
His wins before then (including the World Championships) indicated a very talented rider, but nothing of the sort we saw on slopes of Sestriere in 1999, or 2000, or 2001...

If he truly is the genetic supermutant the "non doping" camp says he is, then we need Mama and Daddy Armstrong to go back and start cranking out as many new brothers and sisters for Lance as possible because their gene pool created a new breed of Superman. And if that's the case, why did we never see this before his cancer?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting some genetic advantage here, but what he did, in many ways, defies all basic logic without some kind of assistance.

To be fair, he also had a team and a training program built solely for winning the TdF. No KoM or GJ competitors, just Lance support. By not racing a full season but, instead, focusing on peaking for a single event he entered the tour fresher and better trained than the other riders. Is that enough to explain his success without doping? Beats me.

He had a post-dated doctor's prescription for that, and the authorities were aware after the fact.
fixed

As someone else mentioned earlier on, how does a rider climbing out of his deathbed, entering the most doped peloton since the death of Tom Simpson in the late 1960's, not only come back and remain competitive, but absolutely DESTROY his competition year-after-year, including some of the most talented riders of this generation who were doped up to their eyeballs?
His wins before then (including the World Championships) indicated a very talented rider, but nothing of the sort we saw on slopes of Sestriere in 1999, or 2000, or 2001...

If he truly is the genetic supermutant the "non doping" camp says he is, then we need Mama and Daddy Armstrong to go back and start cranking out as many new brothers and sisters for Lance as possible because their gene pool created a new breed of Superman. And if that's the case, why did we never see this before his cancer?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting some genetic advantage here, but what he did, in many ways, defies all basic logic without some kind of assistance.

Well I can't say I've seen all Lance's races...but I'd say I've probably seen his last four...and he definitely has always had the best teammates behind him to get the win. I think Lance would usually state in his wins that it was a team effort. So perhaps being in the best team had a big part of how he was able to win all the time.

Are your friends from Salem, MA or something? So the most tested person in the world is guilty because they just can't believe that he was that good. I hope your friends don't end up on the supreme court.
:deadhorse:


Oh, I think Justices Ginsburg and Kennedy pass that test with flying colors.

Somebody once put together a list of the top 10 finishers in each of Lance's TDF wins, highlighting the riders busted for doping....

Quite interesting...

Anyone know where to find that list...

Lance will always be second place to eddie merckx b/c the tour de france was the only race that was his sole focus. I know he raced other races, but they were only preparation for the Tour. If Eddie did the same thing, I'm sure he'd win the same amount of races if not more.




Both roads are possible.

Lance barely raced throughout the year - he trained and built up massive efficiency and base. He practiced the climbs he would eventually do on the Tour. He had a stellar team [something like this year's CSC] to protect him for 7 years and rock the peleton - and yes, some of them were dopers. Think about how many guys on USPS went off to become GC guys for another team. He had all the genetic potentials to become a great endurance athlete.

OR

He doped.

Either way - he holds 7 TdF victories without any concrete links to doping. He's scott-free.

The ticket is to undergo chemo theraphy and thus nullify every drug test done to you. The reason I say this is a friend of my mine after doing chemo and fighting his tumor and 6 months later, he passed a drug test 3 days after he went on coke and weed binge. Chemo alters you're chemistry and makes drug detection harder.

Dr. Ferrari is not also a stupid vitamin doctor.

Uh, no.

anquetil was `greater` than LA.

Like I said earlier, the great Eddy Merckx was a cheater and got disqualified from races for amphetamine use. So we should discredit him too? Just a thought.


Lance will always be second place to eddie merckx b/c the tour de france was the only race that was his sole focus. I know he raced other races, but they were only preparation for the Tour. If Eddie did the same thing, I'm sure he'd win the same amount of races if not more.

People I know who has clout with high cycling circles say that Lance had access to the "the best",
whatever that means.

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