"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Ban teams, Directors, and owners for repeated positives

As the Ricco situation makes clear, the dopers will always be looking for the next new non detectible drug. And the nature of the game makes it likely that the dopers will always be a step ahead of the testers.

However its difficult to believe that there could be significant doping on a 3 week grand tour, without fellow riders, support staff, and directors knowing about it. You just can't travel,and live in that close of proximity for 3 weeks without people picking up on things IF THEY HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO BE LOOKING.

The Team Organizers, and fellow riders are the people in the position to stop this. The rules need to give them the incentive to do so.

Until and unless Team Management feels the pain this sh*t will continue.

Bio passports are the answer.... Just wait

I agree. Any manager with a rider caught doping is immediately suspended. 2 different riders caught, full team suspension. Fellow riders then have an incentive to police as well as offences negatively impact them. I am not normally a fan of such rules, but if cycling wants to get serious, it does have to go after the enablers, not just the riders who are doping.

It needs to be a well-written code, however. Leaving it up to race organizers is a pretty crappy way to do it. Astana doesn't get invited to the Tour despite all new management while other teams with a history of doping offences do get the invite. I would actually be fine with the Astana exclusion if there were any consistency.

I've alway felt that what the sport needs is a complete mia culpa. The UCI should offer a one time amnesty to the riders....fess up...completely...name the suppliers...the doctors...the DS's. Do this and there will be no repercussions...no punitive measures. Next positive test and you are banned for life. The big issue is that these riders are not doping in a vacuum. They have help. Honestly I imagine this conversation after Lance beat Basso in the Tour:

Riis: Ivan, if you want to beat this man and win the Tour you need help....I can't just coach you to a Tour win...I know people who can get you what you need....I will support you in this...

Ivan: Yes I will take your help...

Seriously the thought that most of these DS's are not involved, either through direct pressure or through direct supply is ludicrous. These guys just didn't learn how to dope by using the Google.

And to add...

With regards to the event that the team is currently racing in, if one man gets caught the entire team should be disqualified. That in itself would help.

In the Saunier Duval case, I believe the entire team volunteered their own departure. It should have been mandatory. Seems like one of the other positives was from Barlo and they are still there.

+1

Bio passports are the answer.... Just wait

yep.

And to add...

With regards to the event that the team is currently racing in, if one man gets caught the entire team should be disqualified. That in itself would help.

I agree. even if the entire team isn't helping and its just one rider going to a shady doctor somewhere, it will make him think twice about injecting knowing his actions could distroy their entire teams future.

They shouldn't be mandated to leave, however they should all be tested for same substances.

If any rider tests positive, the entire team is banned from all events for the remainder of the season.
You wanna get serious, get serious, otherwise it's just posturing.

I think you should lose your job and go to jail if your kid gets caught shoplifting...

Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.

Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.

Ahh, shaming! I like it.

I think you should lose your job and go to jail if your kid gets caught shoplifting...

F that, you should be crucified, and the rest of your family burned, you bleeding-heart liberal wussy.

Don't even make them leave. Just make the offender wear a hot pink jersey with no sponsors that says "DOPER" and make them lead the parade, handing out pamphlets describing how the sport is trying to clean itself up.

Can't we at least lop off a limb?

Whoa, I just had a brain storm...(now I've shot my wad for this century).
What if, besides the pink jersey, the rest of the team and the management has to wear yellow jerseys that say "I'M WITH DOPER" ?

I am a fracking evil genius...you had a good idea too, but it needed a lil chippie magic to round it out.

Why make 'em more comfortable on the saddle?


Can't we at least lop off a limb?

Can't we at least lop off a limb?

Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.

My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.

But think of the TV ratings! BRILLIANT!

Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.

Done with bladed spokes.

I actually thought that the initial ideas in this thread were good - the other ideas, while funny - aren't really reality based. At least, not "their" reality.

I agree. even if the entire team isn't helping and its just one rider going to a shady doctor somewhere, it will make him think twice about injecting knowing his actions could distroy their entire teams future.
Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.

Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.

i concur. the only proven deterent to crime is the certainty of being caught.

Maybe just the tip of the index or middle fingers on the right hand to make it a little harder to shift when they come back to racing. One missed shift at a crucial moment would serve as a reminder of what they'd done.
My original thought was a ceremonial execution preceding the begining of the next stage, but that seemed a little harsh.

nah. save all the offenders for the last stage. guillotine 'em after the sprint on the champs elysees. you can do it on the place de la concorde like in the old days. the more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

Negative. The consequences will continue to be irrelevant as long as they believe they won't be caught. Better testing is the only answer. The death penalty isn't stopping people from killing each other. If there is a 99% probability of being caught even a one year ban will suffice. If the probability is 10% you could threaten to hang their entire family and somebody would still risk it.

Effectiveness of any deterrent depends on certainty,severity,and swiftness. The death penalty as currently administered lacks 2 of 3.

My proposal to punish all the enablers, relies on the time honored principle of giving conspirators a motive to roll. As long as the co conspirators, and the enabelers are placed at risk, they have a much greater motive to roll, and or self police, thus greatly increasing the likelyhood of punishing the transgressor.

The problem with testing is that the cheats will always be one step ahead. Hence you need to rely on non testing avenues of detection, i.e. witnessing riders injecting, seeing them possessing bags of blood, getting deliveries of drugs, etc.

If the team personell is given the proper incentive, they can easily detect such behavior. Problem is the current system incents them to turn a blind eye.

^^What he said.

lifetime suspension. Period.

As the Ricco situation makes clear, the dopers will always be looking for the next new non detectible drug. And the nature of the game makes it likely that the dopers will always be a step ahead of the testers.

However its difficult to believe that there could be significant doping on a 3 week grand tour, without fellow riders, support staff, and directors knowing about it. You just can't travel,and live in that close of proximity for 3 weeks without people picking up on things IF THEY HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO BE LOOKING.

The Team Organizers, and fellow riders are the people in the position to stop this. The rules need to give them the incentive to do so.

Until and unless Team Management feels the pain this sh*t will continue.

You don't want to EVER ban team 'owners'. F that action.

I say if Timothy friggin Leary wants to write a sponsor check, CASH it.

I say if Timothy friggin Leary wants to write a sponsor check, CASH it.

Can you imagine the team kit?

I was thinking along the same lines - instant ban for the team. HAving teams put up a huge bond pre-race to be forfeited upon any positive test would also help.

Thank god for the proactive stance Columbia/Garmin are taking.

Can you imagine the team kit?

What do you think?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/Daddy-bigheadcopy.jpg

Yup. A lifetime ban for the rider. At least a one year ban for his team and everyone associated with the team. A couple years of being tough, and the dopers will be eliminated. Then, the last two pro cyclists can settle which of them is the best.

The problem with testing is that the cheats will always be one step ahead. Hence you need to rely on non testing avenues of detection, i.e. witnessing riders injecting, seeing them possessing bags of blood, getting deliveries of drugs, etc.




That's not necessarily true. Roche supposedly worked with WADA to develop an assay for Micera. Smooth move on every body's part for not informing anyone of the test. This won't always be the case, but as long as the the testing agencies keep up with the medical journals and big pharma research, they could be on even par with the people trying to dope. Maybe.

That's not necessarily true. Roche supposedly worked with WADA to develop an assay for Micera. Smooth move on every body's part for not informing anyone of the test. This won't always be the case, but as long as the the testing agencies keep up with the medical journals and big pharma research, they could be on even par with the people trying to dope. Maybe.

A recent issue of Popular Science had an article on future of doping - methods that will come about in the next 10 years and the likelihood of detection for each. With things like using someone's stem cell's for increased growth, the possibility of detection is next to nil.

What do you think?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/Daddy-bigheadcopy.jpg

I think that would be interesting, kind of like:

http://www.bicycling.com/images/cma/May_Michaelball.jpg

A recent issue of Popular Science had an article on future of doping - methods that will come about in the next 10 years and the likelihood of detection for each. With things like using someone's stem cell's for increased growth, the possibility of detection is next to nil.

Is that available online? Sounds like an interesting read for a geek like me :o

You don't want to EVER ban team 'owners'. F that action.

I say if Timothy friggin Leary wants to write a sponsor check, CASH it.

There's a distinction between the owner of the team and the sponsor. I'm suggesting you ban team owners.

For example Manola Saiz's company owned the Liberty Seguras' team. but Liberty Seguras was the sponsor. So you don't ban Liberty; you ban Saiz and his company.

Is that available online? Sounds like an interesting read for a geek like me :o


Here it is (http://www.popsci.com/scitech/gallery/2008-07/juicing-30)

Why don't teams sue offending riders for costing them sponsors? Would that be unreasonable?

Wow people talk tough on the Internets. Shoot first, ask questions later?

As long as riders think they can get away with doping then some of them will dope. As long as those guys win races other racers will dope in order to keep their jobs. The teams will be happy with this arrangement until someone gets caught and then feign disappointment. Improve the certainty and frequency of the testing so as to make getting away with doping more difficult and then doping will be minimized. Right now the riders believe they can get away with doping- and apparently basically are. Not because the testing won't catch them but because there simply are enough riders being tested. Not every riders should be given the whole battery but rather randomly select stuff to test for in addition to some basic stuff (EPO). Increase the % of riders tested daily to 15% and the riders will treat doping with more caution. Right now, it's too easy to get away with it.


Why don't teams sue offending riders for costing them sponsors? Would that be unreasonable?

If teams sue these riders the riders will accuse the management of helping them (regardless of the truth) and the sponsor get hurt- teams don't like that.

Barloworld is DONE. In fact they're pulling their funds after this month. That's why cycling has to get a handle on doping. If they don't the business model comes unglued.

Sports fans in baseball and football may not care too much, but companies who pay millions to plaster their brand name all over a sport for exposure and marketing do NOT want to be associated with doping. Who can blame them?

Effectiveness of any deterrent depends on certainty,severity,and swiftness. The death penalty as currently administered lacks 2 of 3.

My proposal to punish all the enablers, relies on the time honored principle of giving conspirators a motive to roll. As long as the co conspirators, and the enabelers are placed at risk, they have a much greater motive to roll, and or self police, thus greatly increasing the likelyhood of punishing the transgressor.

The problem with testing is that the cheats will always be one step ahead. Hence you need to rely on non testing avenues of detection, i.e. witnessing riders injecting, seeing them possessing bags of blood, getting deliveries of drugs, etc.

If the team personell is given the proper incentive, they can easily detect such behavior. Problem is the current system incents them to turn a blind eye.

I agree 100%, in fact I posted a similar statement in the TDF forum about Barloworld. Self policing would be a step in the right direction if all were accountable. You can't tell me nobody knew about Ricco!

Professional sports exist on the notion of fair play. That the game is level and that any team of individual can win or lose based on their skill, luck, to tactics. Doping makes the competition about having the best chemists which undermines the fan base. Conflict within a sport does that to a higher degree. Cycling has both. The only thing worse is if the officials were manipulating the competition to effect the outcome. Sponsors dislike instability more than doping (Festina still sponsor cycling events). In a sport based entirely on sponsorship the teams, riders and the organization (UCI) must work to please the sponsors. The UCI and ASO have both forgot their place and is biting the hand that feeds them. They did that back in '98 and the teams organized to protest. What's happening now is worse than the '98 abuses. Those were against riders these are against sponsors.

I don't think Professional Cycling can fix itself and is doomed to return to obscurity.