Living Car Free - Drill Drill Drill

What 'we' can do to get free of oil........

From the story.....
"By the way, forget about oil shale and the Dakota "Bakken" oil play as anything more than pipe dreams by people who don't understand the economics of oil production or geology.

Is there anything we can do?
Of course... and I've repeated it a hundred times

Rebuild the passenger rail system (and public transit at all scales) with electrification
Prepare to reinhabit our small cities and small towns, while decanting the suburbs and our supersized metroplexes
Grow much more of our food locally around these places
Rebuild local networks of retail and wholesale trade
Prepare to resume manufacturing at smaller scales
Raise interest rates to reward savings
Do not waste alt.energy production on automobile use"

The whole story........
http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_drill.html

I always thought we should increase the federal gas tax and put it in a fund for improving infrastructure (mostly rail). Imagine how much money we could bring in with just a slight increase in gas tax. Plus it would likely lead to less driving overall, and likely accelerate innovation in creating more fuel efficient vehicles.

Found this website this week http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

a bit wacky but there is solid information in there. Much more than I have found in any single "mainstream" website.

at least people are realizing that drilling is not gonna do beans.

Why would I want to be "free of oil"? I can understand conservation, but why would I want to do away with oil? When a better alternative to it exists, I'm all for it. But since one doesn't exist, being free of oil is a ridiculous concept. It's like being "free" of electricity. Why? Should we all go back to wood fires to heat our homes....oops, can't do that, trees are sacred, and the smoke is bad for the environment.

Light rail is all fine and dandy in the big cities, but the concept doesn't work in rural America.

Rebuild the passenger rail system (and public transit at all scales) with electrification
Prepare to reinhabit our small cities and small towns, while decanting the suburbs and our supersized metroplexes
Grow much more of our food locally around these places
Rebuild local networks of retail and wholesale trade
Prepare to resume manufacturing at smaller scales
Raise interest rates to reward savings
Do not waste alt.energy production on automobile use"

Good suggestions on the passenger rail, locally-grown food and local trade networks. But I have some questions about a few of the other items on the list..

If people are to leave the larger cities for smaller cities, they need to have reasons to relocate. Right now, we have a society where the bigger businesses and corporate headquarters are often located in large cities. A lot of other work opportunities are also in urban areas. People won't leave the cities en masse unless there are proper job opportunities for them.

Also, if we see a transition to small-scale manufacturing, will we also see prices rising? Large manufacturing and big businesses can produce goods more cheaply than smaller operations, simply because of economies of scale.

As for raising interest rates to reward savings, I'd love to see it happen. But when we have people living from paycheque to paycheque because the cost of living is high, the idea of creating a savings account is out of reach. How do we break this cycle?

Rebuild the passenger rail system (and public transit at all scales) with electrification


Why do you want to wait until we build a national passenger rail system? You could be 100 years old by then! LOL

I didn't wait and moved next to a lightrail stop. I found a job at the other end of the line, junked my car and become car free! It's a simple formula but then again, life is what you make it. I travel about 385 miles a month on this line for $53.00 dollars and I don't have to pay for parking, insurance, maintenance, gasoline, tolls and tickets. My 1.4 billion dollar electric cars cost what people pay in gas a week. In case you did not know, there is a lightrail building frenzy in this country and new lines are being built all the time and others are getting extensions. All I can say is join the fun, the water is warm!

As for those who are married to a job in the middle of nowhere the rest of their lives, you have my condolences. The price oil dropped today and gas still went up at the pumps! Go figure.

www.lightrailnow.com

Why would I want to be "free of oil"? I can understand conservation, but why would I want to do away with oil? When a better alternative to it exists, I'm all for it. But since one doesn't exist, being free of oil is a ridiculous concept. It's like being "free" of electricity. Why? Should we all go back to wood fires to heat our homes....oops, can't do that, trees are sacred, and the smoke is bad for the environment.

Light rail is all fine and dandy in the big cities, but the concept doesn't work in rural America.

We will be free of oil one day whether we want to or not. There are no alternatives that will ever be as cheap as petrol. Whatever alternatives on the horizon will be more expensive to create and less efficient than what we are using today so get ready to pay more. We'll do away with oil when the last drop is sucked from the face of the earth.

Lightrail does not work and you're right in rural America. However, it doesn't mean YOU can't take advantage of this tremendous vehicle of transportation. What's going to happen to rual America when the price of gas hits 10, 11 or 15 dollars a gallon is anyone's guess. I said it before on another thread, the railroad will one day save the middle class. I still believe that today.

Oh, by the way. Try to keep my carfree lightrail life a secret between us. LOL! I don't want to see more motorist on the train because it's crowded enough! How am I supposed to get a seat if everyone starts using lightrail?? ;-)

Good suggestions on the passenger rail, locally-grown food and local trade networks. But I have some questions about a few of the other items on the list..

If people are to leave the larger cities for smaller cities, they need to have reasons to relocate. Right now, we have a society where the bigger businesses and corporate headquarters are often located in large cities. A lot of other work opportunities are also in urban areas. People won't leave the cities en masse unless there are proper job opportunities for them.

Also, if we see a transition to small-scale manufacturing, will we also see prices rising? Large manufacturing and big businesses can produce goods more cheaply than smaller operations, simply because of economies of scale.

Yes...cheap goods are not an inalienable right...at least I don't think they are:p We are very spoiled in this current generation by an overwhelming supply of cheap products. Look back 2-3 generations at the way people lived and what they possessed. They, for the most part, had necessities and durable goods that lasted generations. Today people have whatever toy is the current fad and if it lasts more than a few months is will soon be tossed and superseded by something else. Our land fills are over flowing with the trappings of modern life. As an example: I have a solid walnut table that belonged to my great grandfather, it was made in the Amana Colonies. My great grandfather was a well paid machinist in his day, that table cost him over a month's wages. How many people today are spending that kind of money on durable products and keeping them for their life time? Most people run to IKEA and purchase some chipboard POS that will soon wear out and be in the land fill.


As for raising interest rates to reward savings, I'd love to see it happen. But when we have people living from paycheque to paycheque because the cost of living is high, the idea of creating a savings account is out of reach. How do we break this cycle?

Living paycheck to paycheck is quite often caused by choices that people make, financial education started at an early age is one way to break the chain. Unfortunately most children are never taught any form of fiscal management and it is carried on from generation to generation. I am fortunate in that I was taught at an early age to do without things and to save money, regardless of how little it was. Even when I was working minimum wage jobs I would put money in savings every week. I also learned the difference between needs and wants.:thumb:

Aaron:)

Even when I was working minimum wage jobs I would put money in savings every week.
Aaron:)
I did this too. Even when I was a kid delivering newspapers, it made it seem like I had a real job when I'd go to the bank every week with a bag of change and make a deposit in my savings account. I had this strange idea in my head that I wasn't really making money unless I was building up savings.

One thing about James Kunstler's vision for the future is that he thinks things will get so bad that we'll lose the ability to make bicycles. That means that he thinks technology will go back to how it was in the 1870s or before right?- no roller or ball bearings, no rubber. Even if it gets to that, it will take years to use up all the stuff lying around. If you believe Kunstler wouldn't it be prudent to stock up on hubs and bottom brackets and pack tires and tubes away for the post peak world?

I know the price of bike tires went up due to oil prices, I just paid over $60 for an Armadillo thorn resistant tire.

Prepare to reinhabit our small cities and small towns, while decanting the suburbs and our supersized metroplexes

I don't see this happening anytime soon. Small cities/towns are going to become very isolated and VERY expensive to live in.

Airlines are cutting service to a lot of minor markets to save on cash. There are no reliable rail systems to most small towns. Heck Amtrack skips WY and SD altogether. And as expensive as rail is today (some cities it costs $150 million A MILE) reliable service isn't going to appear in our lifetimes.
The average american isn't going to bike 200 miles to a larger town so they can catch a train/plane. They will more than likely drive, or less likely take a bus. Neither option weans us off oil.

The more likely option is that people will congregate in larger cities creating more density, and relying more on the existing infrastructure. Or that they will stay in the existing suburbs and rely more on the mass transit options, and staying closer to home than previously.

If people are to leave the larger cities for smaller cities, they need to have reasons to relocate. Right now, we have a society where the bigger businesses and corporate headquarters are often located in large cities. A lot of other work opportunities are also in urban areas. People won't leave the cities en masse unless there are proper job opportunities for them.


A lot of the jobs people do in big cities are reliant on abundant cheap energy. For example in San Francisco a lot of jobs are in inport/export - when it becomes to expensive to ship stuff from China to the US (and then on to interior destinations) those jobs vanish. Boeing is in Chicago - how many airliners are they going to need to build with airlines going under and surplus planes lying around.



Also, if we see a transition to small-scale manufacturing, will we also see prices rising? Large manufacturing and big businesses can produce goods more cheaply than smaller operations, simply because of economies of scale.


A lot of that economy of scale is possible due to abundant cheap energy. Machinery in assembly lines is built with cheap energy, shipped with cheap energy, and run with cheap energy. Prices for hand built goods might be higher, but perhaps be more affordable to all because they can get jobs manufacturing stuff recycling the money internal to the country rather than shipping it off to China (for goods) and Saudi Arabia (oil to ship the goods).

Regarding a comment further down the thread about people moving into the cities because of the costs of living in small towns, I used to think this way. If we were shepherding our energy better I would still believe it but my mind is changing. The problem is that the food is not grown in the cities. It's shipped into the cities with abundant cheap energy. People may need to move to where the land is and more will be involved in farming when farm labor becomes cheaper than oil.

If you think that is doom and gloom - read "Peak Everything". He predicts massive change but (and I agree) he says that a reduction in societal complexity should not necessarily be seen as "bad".

Boeing is in Chicago - how many airliners are they going to need to build with airlines going under and surplus planes lying around.

seattle, although boeing has contracts inked for many years into the future.

Found this website this week http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

a bit wacky but there is solid information in there. Much more than I have found in any single "mainstream" website.

at least people are realizing that drilling is not gonna do beans.

The website you posted is pretty thorough on what is needed and what is just political fluff in the days of peak oil. thanks for posting it.

I'm almost oil free. I had to rent a car to move, but that's it.

Protip: Electricity doesn't come from oil.

And there have been better alternatives to oil for a long time, there was just no incentive for them to be implemented because oil was cheap and was, in all likelihood, paid to not develop alternatives. Better alternative has more to do than just price...

I'm almost oil free. I had to rent a car to move, but that's it.

Protip: Electricity doesn't come from oil.

And there have been better alternatives to oil for a long time, there was just no incentive for them to be implemented because oil was cheap and was, in all likelihood, paid to not develop alternatives. Better alternative has more to do than just price...

It does come from natural gas and coal though.

It does come from natural gas and coal though.

Depends on where you are. Some places use hydropower.

Light rail is all fine and dandy in the big cities, but the concept doesn't work in rural America.

So don't live in rural America.

The country's too damn big to fix all at once. It's the idea that we have to help everyone, whether it be the rural farmers of the midwest, or the suburbanites of a given city, etc. that has kept us from making any progress with mass transit.

At some point, you have to just start building something and either you move close to it or you go without.

I live in the exhurbs. Suburbs so far from the city that they don't really qualify as suburbs.

But oh what an exhurb.

Check out Peachtree City, GA. If you're lucky enough to find a good job here (and we have some high paying jobs), you'll be glad you did.


I think this is the best place in the entire country to raise a family. If you're single, forgetaboutit. It's dead at night.

But if you value a nice small town with all the amenities you expect in the suburbs (like Chilis, Victoria's Secret, upscale shopping, dining, etc.) then you're in the right place.


We have it all (except a Trader Joes, but a guy can dream).


Oh, and we need a good Indian restaurant. Man, I am SOOOO addicted to Indian food.

So don't live in rural America.

The country's too damn big to fix all at once. It's the idea that we have to help everyone, whether it be the rural farmers of the midwest, or the suburbanites of a given city, etc. that has kept us from making any progress with mass transit.

At some point, you have to just start building something and either you move close to it or you go without.

America had a great rail system just 40 yrs ago. Rail right of way can still be reclaimed and
re-railed but there needs to be rail to service it all. I can remember in the 1960's one could
get a train a few miles away by car almost anywhere in America. However, many rail companies
went out of busness from the interstate and the shove , a hard shove at that, towards semi-trucks.

America has to choose between the interstate system or a great rail system we can't afford both.

America had a great rail system just 40 yrs ago. Rail right of way can still be reclaimed and
re-railed but there needs to be rail to service it all. I can remember in the 1960's one could
get a train a few miles away by car almost anywhere in America. However, many rail companies
went out of busness from the interstate and the shove , a hard shove at that, towards semi-trucks.

America has to choose between the interstate system or a great rail system we can't afford both.

Gas taxes make it possible to fund the interstate system but the revenue system will change in the very near future. I read an article today they are getting ready to increase gas taxes because revenues have fallen as motorist are driving less! When electric cars hit the streets in the upcoming years, gas taxes will fall at an even greater rate and you'll see tolling spread like wild fire.

The reason we can afford the interstate is due to the fact the motorist will pay whatever it takes. This is not the same for the railroad. Commerical railroad will come back but we'll be very old men when it arrives. By that time, gas will be around $60.00 dollars a gallon and towns will vote for higher taxes to build a commuter railroad. Our grandchildren will live to see the rebirth of the railroad. I envy them.

Good point about shale oil. After you dig out the shale and separate the hydrocarbons you will have a pile of powdered rock twice the size of the original rock. Imagine dumping it in the Colorado River. In a few years you could fill up lake Powell.

Good point about shale oil. After you dig out the shale and separate the hydrocarbons you will have a pile of powdered rock twice the size of the original rock. Imagine dumping it in the Colorado River. In a few years you could fill up lake Powell.

Could it not be used to make cement?

Could it not be used to make cement?
As a constituent.
From:
S. OYMAEL

Mustafa Kemal University, Department of Civil Engineering, 31040 Antakya, Hatay, Turkey


"Physical and chemical characteristics of ashes formed at burning oil shale at temperatures 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 and 1030 °C were studied. Standard procedures were used to determine both pozzolanic activity and binding para*meters. The most suitable characteristics were provided with oil shale ash formed at 700 °C. Ashes (15 and 30%) were added to ordinary Portland cement. The optimum pozzolanic characteristics and performances were pro*vided by the mixture containing 15% ashes. The mixes meet the corres*ponding Turkish standards, and therefore, this oil shale can be used as an admixture in Portland cement."

Gas taxes make it possible to fund the interstate system but the revenue system will change in the very near future. I read an article today they are getting ready to increase gas taxes because revenues have fallen as motorist are driving less! When electric cars hit the streets in the upcoming years, gas taxes will fall at an even greater rate and you'll see tolling spread like wild fire.

The reason we can afford the interstate is due to the fact the motorist will pay whatever it takes. This is not the same for the railroad. Commerical railroad will come back but we'll be very old men when it arrives. By that time, gas will be around $60.00 dollars a gallon and towns will vote for higher taxes to build a commuter railroad. Our grandchildren will live to see the rebirth of the railroad. I envy them.

A little known fact it that states are selling large chunks of America's interstate roadways to
foreign countries to avoid the huge impending cost of rebuilding that is due shortly. Tollways
are the inevitable outcome of these sales.

Gas at $60 will collapse our economy so the whole question becomes moot. :eek: