Touring - Our Book is Done and We Are Back on the Road

Our second bicycle touring book is finally finished! I look back and can’t believe we did all the work to write, edit, and publish this book on the road as we traveled internationally, frequently while free camping on the side of the road in our tent on battery power.

The first draft was written in South America as the events unfolded. The second draft was worked on in Malaysia except a couple chapters that were reworked later in Tasmania, the Gold Coast, and as we rode across the lonely outback “top end” in Australia. The first edit of the entire book was done in New Plymouth, New Zealand. We hired a professional editor and worked with her as we rode through the South Island of New Zealand. In Valdez, Alaska, USA we hired the book cover artist, completed the layout, and wrapped everything up. We are writing you from the road in Destruction Bay, Yukon, Canada and heading towards Vancouver Island and the west coast of the USA.

We would like to thank the members of the Bike Forums who helped us by providing feedback on the packing list that appears at the end of the book. Thank you all very much for your assistance. You can read the first chapter and look at the photos from the book on our web site.


To update you on where we are now, we have left Valdez, Alaska, USA and have started riding again making our way south through Canada and down the west coast of the USA. I am now working on a new section of our web site for the current leg of our journey; stay tuned for our regular photos and daily journals. I hope that this does not include stories about a grizzly bear attack or moose chasing us across Canada.
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-(Mod removed link to book)

When you get into northern California PM me. The wife and I could put you two up for a couple of days. We are in Wine Country, a days' ride north of the Golden Gate Bridge.

thanks for the invite, we look forward to meeting you when we get there.

your web site gives me a headache, and I think your posts are an MLM snow job or some form of viral marketing.

Hello RichardCranium:

We have read your negative comments about CrazyGuy and many others and will just have to consider the source. You have the freedom to look elsewhere. No "hatin" please.

I have the first book and want the 2nd. Will we get the same deal again?

All the details of our second book can be found on our most recent blog post found at the link below. If you have any questions feel free to email us.

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Mod removed link

I really enjoyed your first book - After reading your book I still want to go to Costa Rica. Went to Belize instead and rode a bit on "hotel bikes" Nixon era single speeds. A bike "mechanic" we met at one location was named Elvis. Good fortune on your ride south.

I'm just getting into touring and discovered your site recently, very inspiring. Looking forward to the updates.-Brian

This pair of freeloaders not only get to advertise their adventures ... they get to prohibit any criticism as well.

Their web site has the same problem as many other "Send me money so I can have adventures!" sites. In order for them to follow their dream, a whole bunch of other people have to NOT follow their dreams.

I find nothing inspiring about their narrative at all.

Hello RichardCranium:

We have read your negative comments about CrazyGuy and many others and will just have to consider the source. You have the freedom to look elsewhere. No "hatin" please.


My negative comments towards many others? Please supply links? My comments about the crazy guy were absolutely accurate, and when that sites is back online I'll post a link so you can READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

Secondly, I get a little tired of seeing your "Form Letter" postings on every discussion board on the internet. They are all the same, word for word. All you're doing is begging for money from un-suspecting people and trying to drive hits to you pathetic web site... which by the way does give me headache, and that ain't no hatin', it's just the cold hard truth.

In keeping with the spirit of these forums, people post touring blogs FOR FREE! An by the way, I've read hundreds blogs/journals/etc that are far superior to yours.... all for FREE.

I'd suggest taking your "pull the wool over everyones eyes" advertising elsewhere. Maybe take your own advice and take yourselves ... DOWNTHEROAD

I have no problem with these guys writing a book and posting about it on here. However, their website is the most advert and endorsement laden site I've ever seen and that turns me off. I also agree that there are far more interesting touring blogs, many on crazyguyonabike.

Here's what I read on BF about its terms and conditions: "Refrain from using BikeForums to advertise your site, items for sale, commercial services or website. You may attach a short link to your site within your profile or signature."

Since the only real content from the original post on this thread is a notice that a (commercially published) book is available for sale, I'm not sure why this is an appropriate thread for BF.

Not hatin', just sayin'.

I removed all links to the book inside the threads. Please do not repost the links.

We are very sorry if we broke the rules of this forum. We saw this post (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=338542&highlight=empanadas) announcing another new bike touring book a few months ago and thought that it was acceptable and we could do the same. We did not know we were held to a different standard.

As far as our site having advertising; yes it does. I did not know this is a crime. I would argue that this site, Bike Forums, has an equal number of ads and even multiple animated ads. Even National Geographic, NPR, Yahoo, MySpace, and web based mail has ads in it. We may be one of the first to make a meager living this way while on tour but we certainly will not be the last.

We are sorry to announce that we are saying goodbye to the bike forums for now and possibly longer. We feel like our 6 years on the road would give us the experience to add to the community, and we have tried when we have internet connections, but it is increasingly difficult not to be seen as having an anterior motive. If any of you have questions about long term bike touring please email them directly to us and we would be happy to answer.

For what it's worth, I've always found Tim and Cindie's input here quite helpful.

Ouch! Why the anger? Tim and Cindie have a point....actually a few. Would rather see them here than venom...take a breath.
I notice that the link to the other book for sale is still there and has been since the post a year ago.

We are very sorry if we broke the rules of this forum. We saw this post (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=338542&highlight=empanadas) announcing another new bike touring book a few months ago and thought that it was acceptable and we could do the same. We did not know we were held to a different standard.

As far as our site having advertising; yes it does. I did not know this is a crime. I would argue that this site, Bike Forums, has an equal number of ads and even multiple animated ads. Even National Geographic, NPR, Yahoo, MySpace, and web based mail has ads in it. We may be one of the first to make a meager living this way while on tour but we certainly will not be the last.

We are sorry to announce that we are saying goodbye to the bike forums for now and possibly longer. We feel like our 6 years on the road would give us the experience to add to the community, and we have tried when we have internet connections, but it is increasingly difficult not to be seen as having an anterior motive. If any of you have questions about long term bike touring please email them directly to us and we would be happy to answer.

But that other book was actually good. Besides, you give no recommendations for the best types of firearms to carry while touring third world countries.

+1 'Would rather see them here than venom'.

These are two people out there doing some pretty interesting touring and sharing their experience on BF. If they have a new book I don't mind hearing about it. And so what if they have some ads on their site???

As for the comment that "In order for them to follow their dream, a whole bunch of other people have to NOT follow their dreams", I'm sorry Nate1952, I'm sure you have lots of thoughts that make sense, that just wasn't one of them.

I notice that the link to the other book for sale is still there and has been since the post a year ago.

I'm assuming someone reported their post to the mods out of spite. Way to go.

I'm assuming someone reported their post to the mods out of spite. Way to go.
jaypee,
Since you quote me, I assume you meant me and if so, you are wrong. I just pointed it out here in my post. Didn't advocate removing it or report it to mods, just pointed it out in a statement. One was removed and one wasn't.

In general, not pointed at jaypee..
I really don't care if either Tim & Cindie or eleanor tell us they have published a book about their tours in the forum. We all have the choice to read the posts or not.
I don't think we need to flame each other as some do, but then that is just my opinion.
Keith

Oh! Goodness, no, I wasn't implying you at all. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And you're right on the flaming, I try not to get involved but I'm a little irritated that due to someone's actions, we've lost a couple of valuable voices.

Oh! Goodness, no, I wasn't implying you at all. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And you're right on the flaming, I try not to get involved but I'm a little irritated that due to someone's actions, we've lost a couple of valuable voices.

I agree with you 100%.

Oh! Goodness, no, I wasn't implying you at all. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And you're right on the flaming, I try not to get involved but I'm a little irritated that due to someone's actions, we've lost a couple of valuable voices.


It is the Internet for crying out loud!

If this causes them to not contribute then maybe that is a good thing. I would have thought after traversing the world they would be a able to take a little Internet criticism. :rolleyes:

It is the Internet for crying out loud!

If this causes them to not contribute then maybe that is a good thing. I would have thought after traversing the world they would be a able to take a little Internet criticism. :rolleyes:


Not sure I get your drift..because it's the internet, communication carries less importance, relevance, level of respect or what? Just curious....

Not sure I get your drift..because it's the internet, communication carries less importance, relevance, level of respect or what? Just curious....

In many respects, yes.

If their message is good, and it seems like it is, then they should just push on as the missionaries of the touring lifestyle. Like most missionary work you are going to run across the true believers, recently converted, non believers, and the hostile natives. A few haters should not stop them from adding to the knowledge base of this site.

This pair of freeloaders not only get to advertise their adventures ... they get to prohibit any criticism as well.

Their web site has the same problem as many other "Send me money so I can have adventures!" sites. In order for them to follow their dream, a whole bunch of other people have to NOT follow their dreams.

I find nothing inspiring about their narrative at all.

+1 to that...

If their message is good, and it seems like it is, then they should just push on as the missionaries of the touring lifestyle. Like most missionary work you are going to run across the true believers, recently converted, non believers, and the hostile natives. A few haters should not stop them from adding to the knowledge base of this site.


I can agree with that..

Their web site has the same problem as many other "Send me money so I can have adventures!" sites. In order for them to follow their dream, a whole bunch of other people have to NOT follow their dreams.

Sounds to me like you are blaming these people for not being able to follow your own dreams. I seriously doubt that anyone who buys one of their books or purchases some piece of bike equipment through their site is rendered so poor that they can "NOT follow their dreams." Do you have any evidence that this is, in fact, what is happening or are you just blowing off steam at some one else's expense?

This is a forum of people who have a common interest in bike touring. As in any such group, there will be people whose advice you don't agree with, ideas you think are foolish, and personalities you don't like. But, to accuse other forum members of being "freeloaders" or other derogatory things does nothing to improve bike touring or enhance the quality of this board.

If you don't want to "send money," don't. But spare us the holier than thou rhetoric as it adds nothing to the discourse here.

Ray

Sounds to me like you are blaming these people for not being able to follow your own dreams. I seriously doubt that anyone who buys one of their books or purchases some piece of bike equipment through their site is rendered so poor that they can "NOT follow their dreams." Do you have any evidence that this is, in fact, what is happening or are you just blowing off steam at some one else's expense?

This is a forum of people who have a common interest in bike touring. As in any such group, there will be people whose advice you don't agree with, ideas you think are foolish, and personalities you don't like. But, to accuse other forum members of being "freeloaders" or other derogatory things does nothing to improve bike touring or enhance the quality of this board.

If you don't want to "send money," don't. But spare us the holier than thou rhetoric as it adds nothing to the discourse here.

Ray


I would tend to agree. It is not a Zero Sum Game. I saved my money, quite my job, and am working on a PhD. I could have took three years off to tour instead.

I think part of the problem is the stink of "shilling" that makes people kind of leery. You have to admit their web page does look like a MLM site.

However, their web page does have useful information and I would think we are poorer without it. Let the haters hate. If they have useful information it will speak for itself.

I came across their site a long while back and I thought it was interesting until I came to the part where they asked the reader to send money so they could continue their adventures. Having worked, saved and paid my own way for my travels I was really disturbed by the openness of their internet begging. I have worked with some of the poorest people in my own community, as well as in the developing world, and there is always a certain amount of shame when a person has to ask for charity. These two come from the richest country in the world and have chosen a lifestyle based on leisure and are not worthy of charity and are simply freeloaders who are not willing to earn their own crust!

I also find their website a bit tacky but I don't understand why people are so upset about it. Ever been to a free concert where they pass the hat? It takes money to travel, to build and maintain a website and it's all free for us to enjoy. If some people like it enough to support them so they can keep going, more power to them. They're not freeloading. You can, but are not forced to, pay them in exchange of their stories, tips and photos. Sounds like a good deal for both sides.

I also find their website a bit tacky but I don't understand why people are so upset about it. Ever been to a free concert where they pass the hat? It takes money to travel, to build and maintain a website and it's all free for us to enjoy. If some people like it enough to support them so they can keep going, more power to them. They're not freeloading. You can, but are not forced to, pay them in exchange of their stories, tips and photos. Sounds like a good deal for both sides.

I agree that these folks were not just begging, they're selling books they've written and providing links for just about every bit of equipment they use. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's appropriate for this forum. It's great when someone recommends a piece of gear in a completely altruistic way, but somehow to recommend gear and then find that there's sponsorship deal and a link on their website so you can buy it is crossing the line for me. Their knowledge will be a loss, but there are plenty of people on here with lots of touring experience so I think we'll survive. I get the feeling that Tim and Cindie are genuine people, and just didn't realize there might be an issue combining their commercial ventures with this forum.

All this gets me thinking about the mass of ads on the side bar on this site, what do people think of them? I think I'll head over to http://www.bikelist.org for a while where there are zero ads.

And let's not forget that Crazyguyonabike has ads as well. Should Neil be banned from posting updates and/or links to it? I realize that the cases aren't really parallel, but I'm curious where the line should be drawn?


All this gets me thinking about the mass of ads on the side bar on this site, what do people think of them? I think I'll head over to http://www.bikelist.org for a while where there are zero ads.

What ads? ;-) One of the benefits of paying the $25 to BikeForums is that you don't have to deal with the ads. That's worth it to me.

And let's not forget that Crazyguyonabike has ads as well. Should Neil be banned from posting updates and/or links to it? I realize that the cases aren't really parallel, but I'm curious where the line should be drawn?



What ads? ;-) One of the benefits of paying the $25 to BikeForums is that you don't have to deal with the ads. That's worth it to me.

You can turn the ads on crazyguyonabike off anytime via the Options page, you don't have to be registered, and it doesn't cost anything. I thought that was a good compromise - the ads help to support the site, but if you don't like them, you don't have to look at them. It can also be useful to turn them off on smaller screens like the Eee PC.

I've been watching this thread from the sidelines as I check in here during the server rebuild. I don't know if people are aware, but Tim and Cindie retreated from crazyguyonabike a while back after I asked them not to put a "footer" on their forum posts which linked to their website. It felt too much like advertising to me, which I wanted to discourage on the forums. Then other people leapt into the fray, much like here, accusing them of being shills etc, and Tim & Cindie replied with some wounded kind of attitude. Then I posted a rather stupid, sarcastic response involving kittens, and some people were shocked about that, and then Tim and Cindie left crazyguyonabike, in much the same fashion they are apparently leaving bike forums. Here's that thread: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?thread_id=66669

Thinking back on the whole episode, I really regret the way it went down. I can relate to their desire to make some money based on what they are doing - they are trying to support themselves while touring on bikes and I am also trying to support myself while running a community website. When I was asking the crazyguyonabike community about how to support myself, there were some quite surprising (to me anyway) reactions against the idea of voluntary donations.

There seem to be two types of brain out there:

The first type sees someone else asking for voluntary donations, and they feel somehow threatened by this. They think it's unfair that someone else should be able to not have to work 9-5 and "begs" for money from the hardworking folks. Why should they get away without working hard and saving up money like I do? This type of person usually turns out to be either Republican or Libertarian in character - very into self reliance, against any kind of liberal-sounding "support from the state" or relying on charity. This concept seems to disgust them.

The second type is the person who says "Hey, great, go for it!" and may or may not actually donate anything, but is happy that there is someone out there just doing what they want to, regardless of the "norms" of society. So they are not so much focused on "work hard and do your part you lazy *******s", as "find your own path, follow your dreams, good luck to you!". This is, to me, the more "liberal" viewpoint. Now I'm not making any value judgments here about who's conservative and who's liberal, or which is right or who's wrong, this is just my honest take on the situation. Liberals tend to be more hippy-like, do-your-own-thing, while the conservatives tend to be more do-your-part and support yourself.

So, given that these two mindsets are what is polarizing America at the moment, in a very stark fashion, it doesn't really surprise me that the subject of Tim and Cindie posting here and advertising their book and website gets people up in such a polarized fashion. Looking back, I really regret the way that Tim and Cindie were driven away from crazyguyonabike. My long-standing stance was that I was fearful of shills and advertisers taking over the forums, so I try to avoid all forms of overt advertising on crazyguyonabike. I know that may seem disingenuous, given the fact that I have ads on the site myself. But as I said at the start of the post, you can turn them off anytime. Even the most perfunctory clicking around the site will reveal this fact - go to the FAQ, for example, it's in there. Also, my ads are very controlled, and restricted to companies and services that I think will actually be relevant to the readers. I've been approached by people wanting to post timeshare ads on the site, and ads for general travel and hotel websites, and I've turned them down.

Anyway, here's the point: I asked Tim and Cindie simply not to post their little ads at the bottom of each post. Crazyguyonabike doesn't have a "signature" feature (which puts a standard piece of text at the bottom of each of your posts automatically), so when their posts had this, it was obvious that it was explicitly put there. I wanted to avoid cluttering up the forums with lots of links to people's sites, which is often done just for the purpose of increasing their page rank with google. I delete spam regularly which is just posted for that purpose.

However, there is a big difference between a cellphone spammer coming on the site and posting their drivel, and Tim or Cindie coming on occasionally and posting about their journeys or telling us about their latest book. Sure, technically it is advertising, but surely it's at least relevant advertising. I mean, they are living their lives on the road, BICYCLE TOURING for crying out loud, you'd think that crazyguyonabike and bikeforums (at least the touring forum) would be the place they could tell people about what they're doing, if anywhere. So, yeah, I regret the way they exited crazyguyonabike. Not that I want to have self-serving posts which don't tend to add much in the way of information but rather always tend to be simply advertising their website in some shape or form. But that's just the mindset they are in - I wish they (Tim and Cindie) could simply recognize that people are quite happy, in general, to have people like them around, and things would go a lot smoother if they put out a little more effort to make the "advertising" aspect a little less overt. That's all that's needed. We don't really need to go into this whole vitriolic extremism where people are basically saying that they shouldn't be doing their trip at all - that's kind of ludicrous, isn't it? I mean, they aren't harming anybody really. So what if they gave up their jobs and decided to go live their lives on their bikes. So how would you support yourself if you tried this? You'd probably do much the same kind of thing - make a website, put ads on it, try to get sponsors, basically do whatever you can to make money from your travels. Sure, they could be more subtle about the endorsements, but that's a conversation, not a conclusion. Tim and Cindie should be engaged, not rejected. They're not ogres, they are bicycle tourists.

If they want to come on back to crazyguyonabike then I'd be fine with that. I never threw them off the site in the first place, they really just recoiled from the venom that some people directed at them (much like what happened here) and then my little sarcastic foray seemed to be the tipping point. I didn't intend that, it was just me saying that they were being much too thin skinned about people objecting to their somewhat obvious attempts to advertise their website via the forums... it was kind of a mess, not something I'm proud of by any means. Does anybody really come out of situations like this feeling good about it? I don't. Tim and Cindie certainly didn't. Maybe the conservatives who hate anybody asking for money feel good, but who cares. They have, once more, succeeded in simply stomping on someone else's freedom. Sorry, didn't mean to get political, but that's kind of what happens - Tim and Cindie have pretty much been stomped, in so many words.

I am not going to get into a big political discussion here - you can think what you think, there is the conservative mindset and there's the more liberal mindset, and from my experience you're not going to change minds through an online forum. As far as I can tell, the big problems with forums and email lists start to manifest when people get off the topic at hand and start to express their views on politics. I think that, in a veiled sense, is what happened here. It's kind of inevitable, it happens occasionally on crazyguyonabike (I'm as guilty as anyone there) and it's been happening lately on Phred (from my casual browsing of the archives) and while this thread wasn't explicitly about politics, I think that is the basic schism that is manifesting itself once more - liberal vs conservative. Again, some who don't like Tim and Cindie might not call themselves conservative, I don't know and I don't really care to mix it up there - I'm just giving my honest reactions to this storm in a teacup. It's rather sad. I don't have any good solutions - I have both conservatives and liberals on crazyguyonabike, and most of the time people manage to get along ok, but the minute anything political comes up ... guns, or police violence, or whatever... then people's underlying prejudices come roaring out, and there's no easy end to that. Like I said, nobody is going to change their opinions here. It's a basic split in the population, it seems.

Wow, I went on a bit there, sorry. I need to get back to finishing the crazyguyonabike server stuff.

Neil

As far as I can tell, the big problems with forums and email lists start to manifest when people get off the topic at hand and start to express their views on politics. I think that, in a veiled sense, is what happened here. It's kind of inevitable, it happens occasionally on crazyguyonabike (I'm as guilty as anyone there) and it's been happening lately on Phred (from my casual browsing of the archives) and while this thread wasn't explicitly about politics, I think that is the basic schism that is manifesting itself once more - liberal vs conservative. Again, some who don't like Tim and Cindie might not call themselves conservative, I don't know and I don't really care to mix it up there - I'm just giving my honest reactions to this storm in a teacup. It's rather sad. I don't have any good solutions - I have both conservatives and liberals on crazyguyonabike, and most of the time people manage to get along ok, but the minute anything political comes up ... guns, or police violence, or whatever... then people's underlying prejudices come roaring out, and there's no easy end to that. Like I said, nobody is going to change their opinions here. It's a basic split in the population, it seems.

Wow, I went on a bit there, sorry. I need to get back to finishing the crazyguyonabike server stuff.

Neil

:rolleyes:

You are indeed crazy, or at least boorish.

Maybe it is simpler than that. Perhaps it is just human nature. Some people are envious of their life style and some admire it. Nothing political, no tinfoil involved. You couple this with mob mentality and a little flaming and you get hurt feelings.

Writing - good writing - takes time and effort. Why can't people ask to be paid for their work?

There's a sense of entitlement out there that insists they should get something for nothing. If Tim and Cindie can make money to fund their tour, I'd say more power to them. Nobody is being forced to donate or read their words.

Neil, I was with you until the last paragraph where you got political and sort of proved your point about it being bad to get political.

The people who went off on Tim and Cindie were impolite and crass, I contributed by criticizing the layout of their website and commenting on the boring blog posts, but I think Tim and Cindie over reacted. I'm sure that everyone would be glad of their contributions without the advertising, but they are in an interesting situation as they are professional tourers and their endorsements and recommendations would be construed by some as money making ventures even if they were well meant.

I know plenty of people will probably disagree with my characterization of 'conservative' vs 'liberal'. However these observations are simply gleaned through many, many interactions with people of both stripes. In my experience, the more 'conservative' people tend to be more interested in self reliance and "not getting help from the state", also they tend to be more paternalistic and interested in loyalty to the authority figure (president, police etc) rather than liberals, who seem to be more interested in personal freedoms and charity. It's true that everybody claims to be interested in "personal freedoms", but the difference, in my experience, is how you want to impose control on other people. Many conservatives seem to be fine with the recent stripping of our personal freedoms in this country.

I sat next to a self-described Republican on a plane recently. He was older, an ex-Marine, and a very nice guy. We had a great discussion about all kinds of political matters. He was a personal friend of Norman Schwarzkopf (he even showed me a note from Stormin' Norman as proof). Anyway, he was adamant that people should take care of themselves, there shouldn't be any government handouts etc. When I asked him about public roads and suchlike, he said those were fine, because he used them. He also thought that the Iraq war was a fine idea, and that all the security measures put in place in recent years were necessary and good too. I found the discussion very interesting, but it mirrored many other discussions I've had with otherwise "nice" republican/conservative people.

I know that politics is a hairy area, and I also know that whenever I say anything political there will be at least 50% of the people out there who will probably vociferously disagree with me. However, I don't think that should scare people from stating the facts as they see them. In this case, I think the cause of the furore over Tim and Cindie does spring at least in part from the different mindsets of the right/left, conservative/liberal brain. People may disagree with me, but I do think it's related. Some people just cannot stand the idea of other people "leaching off society", "begging for money" and so on. I commented because this is an attitude that I've encountered myself on crazyguyonabike during discussions about donations and how to support myself while running the site. Without exception, when I analyze the postings of the people who are against the concept of donations, they turn out to be rather right-wing conservative people, with the political viewpoints I've come to expect from such. I'm not condemning them, though I do feel that they can be monstrously and catestrophically wrong about a lot of stuff. But nonetheless I felt compelled to comment - I think the politics of people is inextricably intertwined with so many other aspects of life today that it's becoming impossible to have a true discussion about some things without talking about the elephant in the room. We can tiptoe around and never say anything that may offend anybody, but I'm not really interested in that kind of discussion. As long as it's civil, we should be able to talk about stuff like this. I think it's apropos because it's attempting to analyze the backstory behind the vociferous nature of the rejection of Tim and Cindie Travis - it seemed to touch a nerve with some people in a way that begs explanation beyond the "we don't like ads" excuse. That doesn't hold water - there are ads all over many websites, and as someone else pointed out, other books have been promoted on here without furure. It's an interesting topic, is all, one that I thought worthy of comment based on my own personal experience. But I do accept that many will disagree.

Neil

Neil, I was with you until the last paragraph where you got political and sort of proved your point about it being bad to get political.

The people who went off on Tim and Cindie were impolite and crass, I contributed by criticizing the layout of their website and commenting on the boring blog posts, but I think Tim and Cindie over reacted. I'm sure that everyone would be glad of their contributions without the advertising, but they are in an interesting situation as they are professional tourers and their endorsements and recommendations would be construed by some as money making ventures even if they were well meant.

I think the problem is the schizophrenic nature of their web site that cause confusion about their identity. This leaves one wondering if they are carefree wanderers living the dream or if they are part of a commercial venture.

For example:

From their web site –

“We are always pleasantly surprised when someone writes and asks us how they can help us continue our travels. We really never expected that when we took off from the security of our jobs and our home in Arizona. When I ask them why, a lot of people say something like they want to buy us dinner, pay for a hotel room, or help us continue in some way. I even had one person equate sending us money to their support of a local public radio or television station. They liked the content of our web site, received hours of enjoyment from it, and wanted to help continue it. I have learned that there are lots of people who are just plain old nice or generous - or both. The goodness of people never stops to impress us. I have written so many individuals back concerning this topic that I find it necessary to automate the process a bit and created this web page.

I also have received several emails asking if we are riding for charity or other non profit group. The answer to this is no. We are riding for our own education and hopefully the education of others about life in general or the places that we visit through our web site.”


OK, just living the dream. But then we get this –

“There is no need to steal from us and deal with being caught later!

Please do not take our images without our permission. One of our automated internet archive or library of congress search methods will catch you. When we are forced to obtain our legal compensation for use of our images we work hard to get much more than back royalties and payments. We strongly believe that people should be penalized for breaking copyright laws. Although this is by far the most profitable way to earn income from our web content it is the least pleasant. Please follow one of the options above.”

Why not share the love? I.e., http://creativecommons.org/about/license/

On one hand they are just trying to live the dream with a little help from generous fellow travelers on the other they have money do defend copyright infringement cases.

I'm a little confused as to how asking for voluntary donations from others somehow automatically means that the entire world should then be entitled to all the fruits of your endeavors for free.

I think it's apropos because it's attempting to analyze the backstory behind the vociferous nature of the rejection of Tim and Cindie Travis - it seemed to touch a nerve with some people in a way that begs explanation beyond the "we don't like ads" excuse. That doesn't hold water - there are ads all over many websites, and as someone else pointed out, other books have been promoted on here without furure. It's an interesting topic, is all, one that I thought worthy of comment based on my own personal experience. But I do accept that many will disagree.

Neil

Why do you feel the need to politicize this? 90% of the population hold no political views whatsoever.

It is not the adds per'se, in many ways it is the tone set by the shameless self-promotion that is reminiscent of an AMWAY convention followed by a Southern revival.

Americans are generous people. Left, Right and Center. Americans have no problem giving to people who are on a true altruistic endeavor. If they are a charity then act like one. If they are a business then be upfront about it.

People are particularly vicious when you make suckers out of them. If Tim and Cindie solicit donations to continue their trip then I find it somewhat disheartening to think they would use this generosity to fight a Copyright infringement case.

I'm a little confused as to how asking for voluntary donations from others somehow automatically means that the entire world should then be entitled to all the fruits of your endeavors for free.

I never said it should.

ETA:


I think it's apropos because it's attempting to analyze the backstory behind the vociferous nature of the rejection of Tim and Cindie Travis - it seemed to touch a nerve with some people in a way that begs explanation...

Actually, vettfrc2000, from looking at the quotes you've posted and from what I've gleaned from their website, I would say that they're not looking for donations or handouts, but would rather people show their support by purchasing their books, licensing their images, and so forth.

Of course, I could be missing something entirely, but from my cursory glance, it makes perfect sense to me. Also, in this case, you seem to be politicizing the copyright issue. Just because you disagree with current copyright law doesn't mean that people who do believe in it shouldn't be able to make a buck from their property.

*shrug*

[edit]

Anyway, everyone in this thread is obviously a shill for Richard Cranium, myself included. We're all laughing at all possible permutations of this ridiculous thread, simultaneously.

I'm done.

I think the initial issue with Tim and Cindie was the promotion of their book, the "freeloading" issue only came up in a couple of "flaming" posts and I think we are putting too much emphasis on a minority of extreme posts. If they were more frequent contributors I don't think people would have minded as much.

I too have been following this thread with interest. If anything, I feel I'm sort of in between the two types of brain outlined by Neil......

On one hand, I freely admit to jealousy seeing these guys going out touring, but hey, good for them! I also think with the age of the internet where easily accessible blogs and web sites abound with literary works ranging from brilliant to downright appalling, it's easily forgotten there is a business model out there where you actually have to pay for an honest literary work -and if they get good money for their books and it allows them to tour, again, I'll say good for them for finding a way to fund their lifestyle that is not dishonest! And let's not forget it, they aren't forcing you to give them money.

On the other hand.... whereas I see nothing wrong with selling a book, I personally would be too proud to ask for money -but of course that's me, and that's why we are all different (and why I certainly won't be sending contributions!). I also am not enthused with the fact they freely publicize their books on discussion boards -I wonder how often they also contribute to message boards such as this? Of course there is also nothing wrong with doing this (assuming board rules don't prohibit this) -but I do wonder whether the spirit of internet boards is somewhat diminished with this approach. I haven't read first hand their copyright clauses on their web site, but if they are what has been reported, I find it very disappointing they feel so possessive of their web site material considering they freely take advantage of other web sites (again, I keep saying this, nothing really wrong with it, just not in the spirit of the internet I think).

I do find it tacky to include multiple posts to multiple boards, and provide limited or canned feedback to others -again, not wrong, but I have to wonder yet again about the spirit of good natured sharing on the internet..... And since Neil does put in a heck of a lot of work into his site, I totally see his point of view (but why kittens?). Given the circumstances, I'd be wary too.

Oh and one last thing about comparing ads on websites to advertizing your own book -the owner of the web site is (usually) paid money to place the ads -running a website certainly ain't free, and you have to get the money from somewhere.

I completely agree; if they posted regularly and frequently with helpful advice, I think this would be a storm in a teacup. They'd be showing they were willing to contribute to help other people -problem is they are not what I'd consider regular contributors -and as such I think they do come off somewhat badly -a kind of lack of good faith if that's a good way of describing it.


I think the initial issue with Tim and Cindie was the promotion of their book, the "freeloading" issue only came up in a couple of "flaming" posts and I think we are putting too much emphasis on a minority of extreme posts. If they were more frequent contributors I don't think people would have minded as much.

Actually, vettfrc2000, from looking at the quotes you've posted and from what I've gleaned from their website, I would say that they're not looking for donations or handouts, but would rather people show their support by purchasing their books, licensing their images, and so forth.

Of course, I could be missing something entirely, but from my cursory glance, it makes perfect sense to me. Also, in this case, you seem to be politicizing the copyright issue. Just because you disagree with current copyright law doesn't mean that people who do believe in it shouldn't be able to make a buck from their property.

*shrug*

[edit]

Anyway, everyone in this thread is obviously a shill for Richard Cranium, myself included. We're all laughing at all possible permutations of this ridiculous thread, simultaneously.

I'm done.


Dude,

I am just posting theories. I am a PhD student. I have zero animus for the authors. I think it is an interesting study of human nature. I find the dialogue with Neil stimulating. I just offer a different theory than Neil's. I cannot imagine anyone but the most jaded not cheering for the authors ability to "escape" the rat race. I only offer conjecture to present a different point of view.

:love:

... a little marketing idea for the authors: how about printing the book as if it had been written as it happened, on scrounged bathroom paper towels--sort of like Abraham Lincoln writing on the back of a shovel by firelight. Just a thought.

... a little marketing idea for the authors: how about printing the book as if it had been written as it happened, on scrounged bathroom paper towels--sort of like Abraham Lincoln writing on the back of a shovel by firelight. Just a thought.

They could scratch the words in the sand using rocks and seashells for punctuation. :)