Professional Cycling For the Fans - I don't care if they dope!

Dance monkeys dance!!!

The stages that Ricco won were exciting to watch, period. Attacking and hard racing is exciting to watch.
All the stuff that comes afterwards is starting to exhaust me. Sure the doping cheapens the win but at the time it was fun to watch.
As it is now anytime someone has a strong ride we think they are doping anyways, I will enjoy the racing for what it is and still be disappointed everytime a rider fails a test.

Doesn't seem as simple as that to me. As Swart said, if everybody's doping, Lance is the best, if nobody's doping, Lance is the best.

What if Lance was doping and some others weren't?

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But the argument isn't so simple. The drugs follow the money. The sponser that may pull out is also the sponser that's paying lots of money for more exposure, a good showing, etc.; Sure they want clean wins, but they want wins.

There's been cheating since the first Tour, and not just drug related cheating. I don't like it but I agree with the OP that it's a huge distraction and sadly for some, the only reason to pay attention to the sport.

It would be great if cheating could be limited. One option that might work would be to go back to national teams, and give riders set contracts with a purse at the end for the winning rider and team, but no amount that a rider's going to kill himself over. It's seems to me that any cyclist that dopes, and that goes for athletes in other sports, too, has pretty much been lured away from the true spirit of competition that got him into the sport in the first place. Sad.

First off. while there still are teams, look how difficult it was for several to get money this year. And there are fewer second tier teams, and there are fewer riders with jobs. So as a result, there are a number of riders that are no longer working at the level where they make a living.

Secondly, if people are paying attention to pro cycling only due to the doping, I'll run into these same moron pinheads at an Indycar or F1 race who want to watch the accidents.

One has to wonder what companies like Credit Lyonnaise, Champion Supermarche, Vittel, PMU and the like are thinking. Nice to have your company name on the leader's jersey, and have the rider wearing it be a doping cheat.

Interesting thing about cycling is that there are no paying spectators. Only paying sponsors.

Maybe because people still watch it, they don't care. Personally, I'd take the approach that Mapei took. Adios.

I say let the free-market decide. The rule should be up to whatever league or business organizes the competitions (across all sports). If you don't want to dope the ride in a different league. See which leagues attract the better athletes or bigger audiences. People will naturally gravitate to where the best competition is.

The government shouldn't have any role in whether it's legal or not. The it should be up to league rule.

I say let the free-market decide. The rule should be up to whatever league or business organizes the competitions (across all sports). If you don't want to dope the ride in a different league. See which leagues attract the better athletes or bigger audiences. People will naturally gravitate to where the best competition is.

The government shouldn't have any role in whether it's legal or not. The it should be up to league rule.

I am curious where that stops. Where's the limit? Should government set no laws at all? Or only in certain places and for certain things. And who decides that?

You might want to re-think that statement.

Courts are a branch of government, as are legislatures (of whatever type depending on what country one lives in) and while I know that they don't teach much civics these days, last time I checked that was pretty much the backbone of a civilized country.


BTW...people gravitate to where the best money is. Sometimes the best competition and the best money collide.

I am curious where that stops. Where's the limit? Should government set no laws at all? Or only in certain places and for certain things. And who decides that?

You might want to re-think that statement.

Courts are a branch of government, as are legislatures (of whatever type depending on what country one lives in) and while I know that they don't teach much civics these days, last time I checked that was pretty much the backbone of a civilized country.


BTW...people gravitate to where the best money is. Sometimes the best competition and the best money collide.

Objective law would define and defend an individual's right to pursue his own life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness. A rational court system exacts justice 1. done by criminals, and 2. in disagreements among rational men (i.e. contract disputes).

The governments role in creating and carrying out laws ends when they begin to act as arbiters of culture and personal choice. Popular choice should never win the day in a just society. If that means that people kill themselves by using drugs, eating fast-food, or waste their lives worshipping silly gods, then so be it. Just because you alone or a majority don't like it doesn't mean you're allowed to use the government's monopoly on force to deny someone else's right to act on their own (no matter how crazy*) judgement.

*caveat, that right ends when your actions harm someone else.

THAT is the backbone of a civilized society.

What other kinds of cheating are you ok with?

What other kinds of cheating are there?

Unlimited doping would kill pro riders. And, it would kill the kids who WANT to be pro riders. And, it would kill kids who only want to pretend to be a pro rider.

Easier solution: lifetime bans for dopers. One year bans for all of their team mates, and everyone associated with the team in any way. In a year or two, all the dopers will be gone.

Over the past twenty years, dozens of pro cyclist have suffered sudden heart failure, as a direct result of doping.

Many of them wanted to race "clean", but were competing against dopers. So, their choices were "dope and die" or get a job in a factory or on a farm.

And, of course, teen cyclists around the world look up to the pro riders. If dope is good for the pros, it must be good for Johnny in Montana.

Nope. I'd like to see "dope free" cycling. If a guy gets caught doping, a lifetime ban. And, a one year ban for everyone associated with his team...that way, your team mates have an incentive to NOT look the other way.

A few years of that, and all of the dopers would be gone. The remaining two cyclists would battle it out to see which of them was the best "clean" cyclist.

A dozen does not represent the majority.

Unlimited doping would kill pro riders. And, it would kill the kids who WANT to be pro riders. And, it would kill kids who only want to pretend to be a pro rider.

Easier solution: lifetime bans for dopers. One year bans for all of their team mates, and everyone associated with the team in any way. In a year or two, all the dopers will be gone.

This is a good plan, but there is one flaw; drugs will become more and more sophisticated and probably undetectable at some point.

Unlimited doping would kill pro riders. And, it would kill the kids who WANT to be pro riders. And, it would kill kids who only want to pretend to be a pro rider.

Easier solution: lifetime bans for dopers. One year bans for all of their team mates, and everyone associated with the team in any way. In a year or two, all the dopers will be gone.

I like where you're going. If we can prove that someone's sole action by some mystical mental power 'forced' some innocent kid to start juicing then we could get these guys on serious criminal charges.:p

Off with their heads...or send them to the gallows....or burn them at the stake...or we could send them to some sort of camp so they can concentrate on the bad things they did. From now on I proclaim that all juicers will be referred to as 'BIKKERS'!

/just being snarky :p

Unlimited doping would kill pro riders. And, it would kill the kids who WANT to be pro riders. And, it would kill kids who only want to pretend to be a pro rider.

Easier solution: lifetime bans for dopers. One year bans for all of their team mates, and everyone associated with the team in any way. In a year or two, all the dopers will be gone.

Because there will be know one left.
Astana, CSC, Rabobank, Highroad, S-D, Baroworld, credit Ag, Quickstep just to name a few, would have been a pretty boring tour this year.

it IS illegal, dumbass. of course, if you had any morals, it wouldn't require the act of a legislative body

Go to hell *****r. Make it legal then.

You are not really that ignorant are you? Doping IS illegal in France, therefore the police haul off the dopers for questioning. It is also not allowed in the sport. If you want to compete in this particular sport, you must play by the rules set out by the officials. If one chooses not to play by those rules, they are penalized. What part do you not understand?

Well duh! Of course it's illegal. So make it legal.

Doping allows certain people to have an advantage?? Not if everyone dopes....


With this logic, would you jump off a bridge just because someone does it.

Also, if everyone dopes to eliminate the advantage, then why dope at all. If no one dopes, then everyone is on a level playing field.

DOPING is cheating. If everyone dopes, then it is still cheating because it diminishes the feats of past riders who didn't dope.

All sports should be dope free!

What if Lance was doping and some others weren't?Not much evidence of that.

it IS illegal, dumbass. of course, if you had any morals, it wouldn't require the act of a legislative body

Yes please legalize, if only to silence moronic statements like the above.

With this logic, would you jump off a bridge just because someone does it.

Also, if everyone dopes to eliminate the advantage, then why dope at all. If no one dopes, then everyone is on a level playing field.

DOPING is cheating. If everyone dopes, then it is still cheating because it diminishes the feats of past riders who didn't dope.

All sports should be dope free!

sorry, nobody comes to mind.

Go to hell *****r. Make it legal then.

LOL ya know, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to know what you're talking about. otherwise, you have no credibility

there are a lot of people here that seem to agree with you that dope should be legalized. i'm not one of 'em. the minute you do that, cycling becomes indistinguishable from wrestling. it risks a man's health and even his life just for your enjoyment. you sound like you're fine with that. whatever...

hey, you're entitled to your opinion. but next time please check your facts first

have a nice day

Are all the pro-dopers completely serious? If so, I'd suggest two circuits of racing: One where all the dopers can do whatever they want, take whatever shots, pills, etc... and race against each other. Call it the 'unlimited class' or some other such name. The other circuit, of course, is for those who are clean, pushing the limits of the sport without doping. That way, those who think it's more entertaining to watch cyclists go a few miles per hour faster, or climb a little harder, can be that much more entertained. I'll stick to watching men and women ride on a level playing field, where you've actually go to earn it.

hey, you're entitled to your opinion. but next time please check your facts first

have a nice day

I never once stated doping was legal. Not sure what you're talking about.

How about this, anybody that tests positive, may remain in the race, but they must start each stage on the opposite side of the main peloton. They will at some point meet the peloton coming the other way. This would make for very exciting TV viewing. If you get enough dopers in the "wrong way" peloton, it would be really thrilling.

I think I just saved professional cycling! :thumb:

The whole they are gonna die argument doesnt hold much water. Only a handful of riders have died from this stuff. In addition if you asked these riders i bet most of them would say they would dope if it was legal. Why because then they could ride faster and make more money for themselves and their family.

Lets face it people, it isnt going away as long as there is millions of dollars at stake people are going to look for medical advantages. The art of cheating will always be 2 steps ahead of detection.

I think the sport would do well to simply embrace it and allow it. Otherwise its the "war on drugs" and we al know how well that has worked out for the past 2 decades. Doped up riders make the race more interesting and watchable.

Look at another obscure sport. Body building. They have a natural and non-natural segment. The non-natural ones make 10 times as much money.

Honestly...in 30 years i think we will look back at this and wonder why we told people not to take drugs that make them stronger and faster.

I don't give a damn either. Let them do whatever the hell they want, their life/bodies are none of MY business. They each have a father, and I ain't it.

I don't give a damn either. Let them do whatever the hell they want, their life/bodies are none of MY business. They each have a father, and I ain't it.

well i cant wait till your son dies from a heart attack after taking too much epo, just because he wanted to become a cyclist...


i cannot believe some people here, you want riders to risk their lives just so you can have some entertainment ?

*caveat, that right ends when your actions harm someone else.

So if you doping and cheating, and I'm not, and you beat me, you are harming me. You are taking money out of my pocket.

Thanks for making the point.

geez...:twitchy:

If I drive 100mph down the interstate, and I am the only one out there, the officer who is holding the radar gun (using your logic) would not arrest me because if I have an accident, the only person I will harm is me.

...man oh man...

Objective law would define and defend an individual's right to pursue his own life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness. A rational court system exacts justice 1. done by criminals, and 2. in disagreements among rational men (i.e. contract disputes).

The governments role in creating and carrying out laws ends when they begin to act as arbiters of culture and personal choice. Popular choice should never win the day in a just society. If that means that people kill themselves by using drugs, eating fast-food, or waste their lives worshipping silly gods, then so be it. Just because you alone or a majority don't like it doesn't mean you're allowed to use the government's monopoly on force to deny someone else's right to act on their own (no matter how crazy*) judgement.

*caveat, that right ends when your actions harm someone else.

THAT is the backbone of a civilized society.

1. the busted riders (assuming guilt) are criminals. 2. The contract dispute is with the organizers, who I assume, have the right to run le Tour however they want. How about looking at the bigger picture for just a moment. The French (govt. = the people) made a law making doping illegal. Is this somehow "uncivilized"? Every rider in le Tour has signed a binding contract with the organizer stating they will not dope and the will not cheat and they will subject themselves to the scrutiny required to determine such. Knowing this, Ricco, Beltran etc. did indeed break French law/cheat the organizers and IMHO attempt to cheat the other riders and the viewing public (to whom they may not be contractually bound). They were caught, spent some time in jail, were stripped of the results, and won't be racing professionally anytime soon (system/law worked). Do the organizers not have the right to run le Tour in any manner they want (they are citizens too, right), as long as: 1. it is consistent with the laws of France and 2. they can get some riders to participate/sign a contract to race?

What if Lance was doping and some others weren't?


Not much evidence of that.


I agree. Not much evidence the others were clean.

The whole they are gonna die argument doesnt hold much water. Only a handful of riders have died

lol

well i cant wait till your son dies from a heart attack after taking too much epo, just because he wanted to become a cyclist...

i cannot believe some people here, you want riders to risk their lives just so you can have some entertainment ?

Many boxers and football players have essentially become cripples with shorter life spans for our entertainment. And the outcry is minimal.

The main cause is the money. But another problem is our ignorance of what it takes to ride a stage race like the Tour. The naivete that a human can ride for three weeks over those distances, at those speeds and up those grades just because they're fit has existed since 1903.

i cannot believe some people here, you want riders to risk their lives just so you can have some entertainment ?


they already do...all we are talking baout is making it legal to do so.

They get paid MASSIVE sums of money to do what they love. They choose to dope as well.

If anything making it legal would make it more doctor supervised and safer for the riders.

Many boxers and football players have essentially become cripples with shorter life spans for our entertainment. And the outcry is minimal.

The main cause is the money. But another problem is our ignorance of what it takes to ride a stage race like the Tour. The naivete that a human can ride for three weeks over those distances, at those speeds and up those grades just because they're fit has existed since 1903.

+ everything

... Brad

they already do...all we are talking baout is making it legal to do so.

They get paid MASSIVE sums of money to do what they love. They choose to dope as well.

If anything making it legal would make it more doctor supervised and safer for the riders.

Well, apparently one sponsor today does not agree with you.

A whole bunch of people are out of a job on the Barloworld team at the end of the Tour. No money, no racing, no job.

Good for Barloworld making a statement.

I have to believe that Saunier Duval if they have not already done so is close behind.

Why in the heck would a company that has (and most do) zero tolerance on drugs with their employees want to have dopers riding around with their company name emblazoned on their chests?

Geez...

Hey, here's an idea...don't dope and ride slower.

well i cant wait till your son dies from a heart attack after taking too much epo, just because he wanted to become a cyclist...

i cannot believe some people here, you want riders to risk their lives just so you can have some entertainment ?

Nice! Einstein here can't wait for someone's son to die from a heart attack after taking too much epo, and then he/she hits us with moral outrage and disbelief over our apparent desire to risk lives for entertainment.

Do you folks even read what you write before hitting "Submit Reply"? Ufda!