"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Is it normal for Cat 5's Cat 1s to be able to hang together?

Recently did my first race.
Thought it would be fun to try out.
Instead of 3 seperate starts, at the last minute they went with one giant group start. So EVERYONE started together.

I had an infection the days before and wasn't feeling well so couldn't hang with the main group. It was I think around 10 laps, total distance 112km. I finished 2 laps down and rode a fair bit in no-mans land. Looking at the results. Several of the registered "Senior 4 Men" which I believe is our equivalent to your Cat 5 finished on the same lap as the top riders in the top division. Even if they hung on to the back of the pack for 112km, is that how close it is between the slowest group and the fastest groups?

sometimes, depends who's racing.

too many "it depends" factors to conclude anything but it depends.

Certainly possible on a flat course without an elite team drilling it at the front. I've also seen Cat 4/5 crits average 29mph for 45 minutes, where the P/1/2 was at 27mph for 60 minutes the same day.

So, "It depends" is probably the best answer. Certainly possible though.

Fishing at the back of a flat road race and actually racing it are two different races.

So, yes, it is possible. But it depends.:D

besides at 112km the Cat 1's are just warming up. It would have had to be a faily non-aggresive day or maybe you have some sandbaggers

Reading between the lines of the OP's post I'd say: Don't get your hopes up. The 1's aren't as slow as you might be hoping, and you aren't as fast as you might be thinking.

Bob

Reading between the lines of the OP's post I'd say: Don't get your hopes up. The 1's aren't as slow as you might be hoping, and you aren't as fast as you might be thinking.

Bob

Appropos to the "Am I good or do they suck?" thread.

I did a 35+ Masters crit where it was Cat 1-5. Silly me, I thought it was going to be a M4/5 race. The pace was pretty damned brisk.

was this the Tour of Terra Cotta race? i think alot of the S4's were one day permits of guys who a) hadn't raced in a while or b) race things like mountain bike etc.

If it's the same race there wasn't alot of surges, etc to break the field up, it was a pretty even speed.

no cat 5s aren't cool enough to hang out with cat 1s. you must only hang with +/- 1 cat from your level.

Cat 5's can easily hang with Cat 1's


...when they're Ryan Wohlrabe (http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=264404)

What's missing there is his crits before June of last year where he tore off the front never to be seen again.

was this the Tour of Terra Cotta race? i think alot of the S4's were one day permits of guys who a) hadn't raced in a while or b) race things like mountain bike etc.

If it's the same race there wasn't alot of surges, etc to break the field up, it was a pretty even speed.
Yes that was the race.
I was just wondering how much faster I have to be to keep up with a normal "beginner" field.
I had a feeling there would be a few fast guys on 1 days, but the # of them had me rethinking that.

Since it sounds like you were there, was that a slow race for the top riders ? Kinda sounds like that's what you were saying?

Normal, no.

Possible, definitely.

Reading between the lines of the OP's post I'd say: Don't get your hopes up. The 1's aren't as slow as you might be hoping, and you aren't as fast as you might be thinking.

Bob
OP says he finished 2 laps down. It was the other "beginners" he's wondering about.

It's not overall time and average-speed that differentiates the Cat-1/2/pro races versus the Cat-4 or Cat-5 races. It's the spread between slowest and fastest speeds that count. The lower categories are all about GO-GO-GO and ride as fast as they can (some of the fastest average speeds I've seen were in the cat-3 races). It's more the slow-to-fast surge speeds that's differences. The cat-4/5 races might see 25-35mph surges, fine. The cat-1/2/pro will see 25-50mph surges. Who cares if you average 27mph in race, can you get up to 45mph within seconds to hang onto the pack when they take off?

Who cares if you average 27mph in race, can you get up to 45mph within seconds to hang onto the pack when they take off?
Not yet, guess that's why I'm still a Cat5. :thumb:

most everyone in cat 5 is a sandbagger... i really need to cat up...

My first cat 1-5 race was a 60min +lap crit with mostly 2's and 3's and about 10 cat 4 and 5 cat fives. There were only a few local 1's. I found sitting in no problem, and eventually, with a break of four up the road, I bridged the 45 second gap they had, held onto the break for half a lap, and then was shelled off the back of the break as though I was a fly being swatted. I suffered trying to hold on to no man's land but was caught by the pack with 1.5 laps to go. I finished with the pack.

Typical? No. Possible? Sure.

I rather believe the entire cat system is a joke--- at least for road races. I can see not wanting 100+ riders on a short, tight crit course, but for road races, why not run everything together and let the riders sort themselves out. Are categories local only to the US?

Totally, I just shot a 85 in golf yesterday, why can't I play in the US Open? :rolleyes:

I rather believe the entire cat system is a joke--- at least for road races. I can see not wanting 100+ riders on a short, tight crit course, but for road races, why not run everything together and let the riders sort themselves out. Are categories local only to the US?

Tis how they basically do it in Japan. You're either at the pro-continental or you're not, at most races. (JCF), JBCF is a little bit different, but most races are combined all comers. The strong weed out the weak, and the races carry on - even in the one crit I did there.

Hell, a good portion of the races I did had 3-4 races on the same course at the same time going different speeds. You learn to navigate, that's for sure.

I rather believe the entire cat system is a joke--- at least for road races. I can see not wanting 100+ riders on a short, tight crit course, but for road races, why not run everything together and let the riders sort themselves out. Are categories local only to the US?

I agree with you, or at least agree that perhaps there's too many categories, but... 200-300 riders together (in Michigan, god help a part of the country where cycling is popular) on a road 8 feet wide is going to get messy.

I rather believe the entire cat system is a joke--- at least for road races. I can see not wanting 100+ riders on a short, tight crit course, but for road races, why not run everything together and let the riders sort themselves out. Are categories local only to the US?


Have you ever raced?

Are you seriously suggesting that Pros should race along side of Cat. 5 beginners? Have you considered how the Pros might feel about that.
(Heck, even Masters racers don't want to be anywhere near Cat. 5s.)

Using your logic, Pop Warner football teams should be paired up against Pro teams like the New York Giants. And the winner of the Little League World Series should go up against against the New York Yankees.

Bad idea.

Bob

I rather believe the entire cat system is a joke--- at least for road races. I can see not wanting 100+ riders on a short, tight crit course, but for road races, why not run everything together and let the riders sort themselves out. Are categories local only to the US?

It may depend on how many you people have at your races. At my [road] race today, there were over 100 people in the cat 4 field alone. All of the other cats were fairly full as well. Also, the different categories run different distances. The Pro/1/2 field did 7 laps of an 11 mile course, Cat 3 did 6, Cat 4 did 4 and Cat 5 did 3. Although there are some races where all the categories run the same distance, it is atypical, at least around here. To be somewhat relevant to the thread, a guy that I ride with on occasion was at this race. I hadn't seem him race since he moved out here, but he's a pretty strong rider and apparently a cat 3. Well, he lined up with the wrong race and ended up riding with the P/1/2 race. He even got in the break and although he was thinking it was much harder than he expected a 3s race would be, it took him 3 laps to realize he was in the wrong race. The final tip-off was seeing David Clinger's tattoos...

^ and ^^ Yep, imagine how great it would be for a pro to have to sort through 200-400 amateurs just to reach the front runners. I'm the first to state that there is an inherent flaw to any competitive system that categorizes people by ability, but I know there is a reason why they have it in cycling and why it actually works... somewhat.


most everyone in cat 5 is a sandbagger... i really need to cat up...
Sure seems that way. Cat 4 is not much faster than Cat 5 (if at all) and there are fewer crashes... except for So Cal lately. :notamused:

Using your logic, Pop Warner football teams should be paired up against Pro teams like the New York Giants. And the winner of the Little League World Series should go up against against the New York Yankees.


There's a huge difference between age-graded and "categoried." So huge that your stretch of logic isn't even relevant.

There's a huge difference between age-graded and "categoried." So huge that your stretch of logic isn't even relevant.

But Filtersweep suggested we lump everyone together regardless of age or skill. Masters races are age-graded, not "categoried". According to the suggestion--they should all line up en masse.

Bob

Hmm.. I only saw the "categories" part of his post. Either way, I have raced in events with 14-65 yr olds and been beat by a 15 yr old - twice. It's a humbling experience to say the least.

It's not overall time and average-speed that differentiates the Cat-1/2/pro races versus the Cat-4 or Cat-5 races. It's the spread between slowest and fastest speeds that count. The lower categories are all about GO-GO-GO and ride as fast as they can (some of the fastest average speeds I've seen were in the cat-3 races). It's more the slow-to-fast surge speeds that's differences. The cat-4/5 races might see 25-35mph surges, fine. The cat-1/2/pro will see 25-50mph surges. Who cares if you average 27mph in race, can you get up to 45mph within seconds to hang onto the pack when they take off?

What?

What?Yeah, exactly that. A team will send 1-2 guys on a flyer and they'll start out mid-pack somewhere. By the time they pass the front of the pack, they're going 38-40mph. If you're cruising near the front of the pack and see them fly by, can you go from 25-45mph in about 5 seconds to chase them down and get into the break? If it takes you more than 15-30 seconds to catch, you're going 35-40mph in no-mans-land. How long can you hold that speed?

In a 1/2/pro crit, it's not uncommon to slow down to 25mph for the corners, then immediately accelerate to 35mph+ on the straight. Then slow to 25mph for the next corner and accelerate up to 35mph again. This is only 27-28mph average, but can you handle the 25-35mph jumps 4x a lap?

That's the difference between the top-categories versus the lower ones. Average-speed has nothing to do with getting results in these races.

Yeah, exactly that. A team will send 1-2 guys on a flyer and they'll start out mid-pack somewhere. By the time they pass the front of the pack, they're going 38-40mph. If you're cruising near the front of the pack and see them fly by, can you go from 25-45mph in about 5 seconds to chase them down and get into the break? If it takes you more than 15-30 seconds to catch, you're going 35-40mph in no-mans-land. How long can you hold that speed?

In a 1/2/pro crit, it's not uncommon to slow down to 25mph for the corners, then immediately accelerate to 35mph+ on the straight. Then slow to 25mph for the next corner and accelerate up to 35mph again. This is only 27-28mph average, but can you handle the 25-35mph jumps 4x a lap?

That's the difference between the top-categories versus the lower ones. Average-speed has nothing to do with getting results in these races.

45? Flat road? Bullsh*t.

45? Flat road? Bullsh*t.

I don't know, but I was going over 36 in a flat cat 4 crit today, without sprinting, just responding to surges and moving up the field. I could believe that the p/1/2 guys could easily get to 45 on an attack or flyer as Danno described. Watching the higher cat races is amazing, you see them all together on one lap and then when they come around again, one guy is 10-15 seconds off the front, where the pack was already doing 30+mph laps.

Edit: I do disagree with some of Danno's points, but typing this on an iPhone in a car I can't be very wordy.

At my Tuesday night crit, it is just an A group and a B group. Fast 5's go into the A's which include some ex-pro's and hang on till the end.

I don't know, but I was going over 36 in a flat cat 4 crit today, without sprinting, just responding to surges and moving up the field. I could believe that the p/1/2 guys could easily get to 45 on an attack or flyer as Danno described. Watching the higher cat races is amazing, you see them all together on one lap and then when they come around again, one guy is 10-15 seconds off the front, where the pack was already doing 30+mph laps.

Edit: I do disagree with some of Danno's points, but typing this on an iPhone in a car I can't be very wordy.

I think Danno is a great poster, I just think 45 is far-fetched.

I think Danno is a great poster, I just think 45 is far-fetched.

It may be, it may not be. From my own experiences, it does not seem like much of a stretch. Just curious, what is your racing experience? What are you basing your suppositions on? Not being argumentative, just curious...

I also wanted to add, something that I thought of after started driving after typing the earlier post. Everyone has to start as a 5, so a very strong rider still has to work his way through the ranks. Thus a cat 1-strength rider may be in the 5s. I've been up against guys like that, and they've of course moved through the ranks very quickly.

It may be, it may not be. From my own experiences, it does not seem like much of a stretch. Just curious, what is your racing experience? What are you basing your suppositions on? Not being argumentative, just curious...

I also wanted to add, something that I thought of after started driving after typing the earlier post. Everyone has to start as a 5, so a very strong rider still has to work his way through the ranks. Thus a cat 1-strength rider may be in the 5s. I've been up against guys like that, and they've of course moved through the ranks very quickly.

45 is world class sprint speed. Danno is apparently just talking about surges. Again, no way.

45 is world class sprint speed. Danno is apparently just talking about surges. Again, no way.

An attack is basically a sprint in the middle of the race that nobody knows about. Using the entire pack as a leadout you can reach pretty substantial speeds, and you wouldn't need to hold it nearly as long as you would for a sprint at the end of the race. Even Cat 3 Guys like Waterrockets can put out 1500+ Watts for short periods of time. I don't know about 45 exactly, but given that a weakling like me was able to get up past 36 just casually slipping up the side of the pack, I'm sure that a strong guy putting out that kind of power using the pack as a slingshot could easily get well above 40 for a short period of time to establish a break.

An attack is basically a sprint in the middle of the race that nobody knows about. Using the entire pack as a leadout you can reach pretty substantial speeds, and you wouldn't need to hold it nearly as long as you would for a sprint at the end of the race. Even Cat 3 Guys like Waterrockets can put out 1500+ Watts for short periods of time. I don't know about 45 exactly, but given that a weakling like me was able to get up past 36 just casually slipping up the side of the pack, I'm sure that a strong guy putting out that kind of power using the pack as a slingshot could easily get well above 40 for a short period of time to establish a break.

I didn't think this would work, but it came out remarkably close...

In the following pic, I guesstimated that the blur of the spectators lasts about a foot of distance. The shutter speed was 1/60th of a second. So, in 1/60th of a sec, these guys are moving one foot; in one full second, they're going 60'. 60 feet/sec = 40.9 mph.

And yeah, as a first-time spectator, this was incredible to witness, happening on the last lap or three of a 100 km race (CSC Invitational back in June, the Pro race at the end of the day). I thought they had been moving fast already, but then they started hauling some serious ass. This was still on a slight uphill heading onto the main straight, too (EDIT* No, it wasn't uphill -- this was halfway down the main straight... sorry for the confusion).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/BarracksSi/Bike/CSC_sprint.jpg

Great photo, I think the blur is less than 1' long though.

Mathematically is not that simple, the blur of the spectators tells you how fast you panned your camera during the shot. You would want the difference in "blur" basically.
As well as accounting for the distance they are from you. For example if it was mountains in the background they would be extremely blurred for the same movement because they are so far.

Hold out your hand at arms length and look at something near by, turn a few inches and see how much it moves. Do the same with something far away, and of course the distance between those two points is much greater.

Sure, I thought of the difference in distance, but they're a lot closer than some distant mountain range - the spectators are only a few feet away from the racers. Rotationally speaking, the ones that are most perpendicular to my position would be the best "blur indicators" ;) and are blurred about the width of their heads (center of head to center); and the ones out of view to the left would be blurred even more.

I don't think that I'm off by more than one or two mph, so we're still looking at 40-mph speeds after a hundred kilometers of racing.

Sure, I thought of the difference in distance, but they're a lot closer than some distant mountain range - the spectators are only a few feet away from the racers. Rotationally speaking, the ones that are most perpendicular to my position would be the best "blur indicators" ;) and are blurred about the width of their heads (center of head to center); and the ones out of view to the left would be blurred even more.

I don't think that I'm off by more than one or two mph, so we're still looking at 40-mph speeds after a hundred kilometers of racing.

You can't seriously think your speed estimate based on the amount of blur is accurate to 3-5% (1-2mph). Even you say that the blur is about the width of their head. I don't know many people with a head that is 1 ft. wide. I don't doubt that these races are going near 40mph, but don't try to say you are measuring this speed.

By the way, the difference between riding 40 mph and 45 mph is enormous.

By the way, notice that I said guesstimated.

If you really want to get into a pissy fit about it, then shut your hole and go race those ****ers.

By the way, notice that I said guesstimated.

If you really want to get into a pissy fit about it, then shut your hole and go race those ****ers.

Whatever you say champ.

I can use your photo to guesstimate their speed as well. Based on the fact that the riders are in Health-net team kits, and the rider on the right is grimacing, I guesstimate that they are riding 40.9 mph.:)

Cat 5's can easily hang with Cat 1's


...when they're Ryan Wohlrabe (http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?compid=264404)

What's missing there is his crits before June of last year where he tore off the front never to be seen again.


That dude is a beast!

45? Flat road? Bullsh*t.You obviously haven't raced 1/2/pro. There are sprinters that can reach 45mph by themselves and even faster with leadouts. McEwen can hit 47mph by himself. Add in a km of leadouts and they'll be starting their sprint at 38-40mph.

BTW - the World Class sprinting to 45mph stat is for the track guys. They are hitting 45mph from a dead-stop at zero mph.