Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - How important are horizontal dropouts?!

I was advised against building a fixie from an old steel frame that did not have horizontal dropouts. But I've seen (on this board and around town) plenty of fixies with all manner of dropouts...what gives? Why are horizontal dropouts desirable/necessary anyway? As you can tell, I'm new to SS/FX. Can someone drop some science on me?

There are not "all manners of dropouts" -- they're either semi-horizontal (the dropouts open towards the front and slope down), vertical (one small notch with a hangar that allows for a multi-speed wheel's axle), or completely horizontal (track ends).

You don't want to use vertical dropouts because they cause a headache when adjusting chain tension. But old steel frames on the whole didn't have verticals. So I'm assuming you mean you have semi-horizontal dropouts, which are just fine to build with.

Because the chain is not going to be perfectly tight without having to move the wheel slightly forward/backwards, and the horizontal drop out allows you to do that. Vertical dropouts are designed to keep teh wheel in one place while the derailleur applies tension to the chain. You can mimic this with a chain tensioner: http://www.performancebike.com/shop/Profile.cfm?SKU=23062&item=50-6550&slitrk=search&slisearch=true which can apply tension to the chain to keep it tight.

I am going to go out on a limb and say they are probably more important than tires or handlebars.

Not having to deal with vertical dropouts makes life easier.

You can mimic this with a chain tensioner: http://www.performancebike.com/shop/Profile.cfm?SKU=23062&item=50-6550&slitrk=search&slisearch=true which can apply tension to the chain to keep it tight.

For SS, yes. If going fixed as the OP mentioned, then you can't rely on a tensioner. Fixed is still possible with vertical dropouts (e.g. eccentric bb, messing with chainrings, cogs, and half-links), but I wouldn't endure that headache without some very compelling reason.

What kind of frame is it? Old steel with vertical dropouts are often good quality. You might be able to trade it or sell it and buy something more suitable.

It wasn't a specific frame, but I've been trying to find an old beater frame to build a cheap fixie to see if I like it. But I've found it hard to find any with horizontal dropouts for cheap...

Thanks for the responses so far.

Are horizontal dropout significantly better/easier to work than semi-horizontal?

Look around at garage sales, pawn shops, and charity shops. Most of the horizontal drops
bikes around were made in the 80's. Those places are where you'll find a lot of older bikes.

As already mentioned in post #2, semi-horizontal drop-outs are fine. They're actually termed "horizontal" dropouts and common to most conversions. Track ends are truly horizontal but uncommon outside of track frames. You can find the details on Sheldon's site: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed-conversion.html.

As already mentioned in post #2, semi-horizontal drop-outs are fine. They're actually termed "horizontal" dropouts and common to most conversions. Track ends are truly horizontal but uncommon outside of track frames. You can find the details on Sheldon's site: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed-conversion.html.

Very true!

track ends are key when switching your gear ratio, aka swapping cogs, without messing with your chain. plus track ends are sexy

track ends are key when switching your gear ratio, aka swapping cogs, without messing with your chain. plus track ends are sexy

?? By messing with the chain you mean removing it? This isn't necessary with horizontal dropouts either.

?? By messing with the chain you mean removing it? This isn't necessary with horizontal dropouts either.

Sorry I'll be a bit more precise next time. when changing your gear ratio with track ends, adding or removing a chain link isn't usually necessary. if you have a road frameset with vertical or angled dropouts there isn't as much leeway.

hypothetically, your at the velodrome an you decide to go a gear higher, you could swap your chainring or cog, adjust the rear wheel and be back on the track before the practice session ends.

Vonzip, both track ends and horizontal dropouts are available in a variety of lengths. Some track ends are obnoxiously short and some dropouts (e.g. Simplex and the Campagnolo 1010) are quite long. It is true that the longest track ends are likely longer than the longest horizontal dropouts, but you're really overestimating how much this matters. On a conversion that I own that has sizable horizontal dropouts, I can put on a cog with two more teeth with no problem, assuming that my chain was properly sized initially. If anything, when it comes to swapping wheels, horizontal dropouts make for faster changes.

That all said, I like the look of track ends and find them to be perfectly functional, but your argument that they're superior for swapping gearing is specious at best.

If the bike has completely vertical dropouts, ditch it and start with another bike. You will hate your bike before you ever get to ride it.

Just get a real track frame. You don't want to risk that rear wheel walking out from under you when you lock up your legs.

I personally despise conversions.

There. I said it.

Just get a real track frame. You don't want to risk that rear wheel walking out from under you when you lock up your legs.

I personally despise conversions.

There. I said it.

Has any wheel ever walked out from under you?

I love conversions, especially with vertical dropouts and fenders.

Has any wheel ever walked out from under you?

I love conversions, especially with vertical dropouts and fenders.

Yes.

I became a bike messenger in NYC in 1992 using my father's bike, which was a 10 speed road bike. I don't remember the name but I know it was really nice. Eventually I went through a lot of frames riding SS freewheel conversions. When I switched to fixed gear in 1995, still with the conversions, I always had problems with the rear wheel moving, the chain getting loose, etc. especially under the daily grind working in the city. I had a wheel pop completely out, and since the seat tube is typically farther away on a road frame the wheel can travel more.

It was unsafe. Finally I scored a Miyata frame with horizontal dropouts. I then knew what riding fixed gear was all about. Now I will not even go close to a conversion. I know a lot of people disagree, and there are some frames that are beautiful to be used for conversions. But when you depend on your chain to stay tight & your rear wheel to stay put, it becomes a gamble.

But I feel like if it wasn't made to be ridden with a fixed gear, then it shouldn't be converted. Period.

But that's just me. You do what you like.

For instance, this wheel is just begging for freedom from the frame:

http://www.stlbikeworks.com/fixed/James-LeMond-Fixed4.jpg

If you have vertical drop outs, you can always get a White Industires Eccentric Eno hub. It's expensive but will solve your problem.

The frame is your foundation. Build on a solid one.

Vonzip, both track ends and horizontal dropouts are available in a variety of lengths. Some track ends are obnoxiously short and some dropouts (e.g. Simplex and the Campagnolo 1010) are quite long. It is true that the longest track ends are likely longer than the longest horizontal dropouts, but you're really overestimating how much this matters. On a conversion that I own that has sizable horizontal dropouts, I can put on a cog with two more teeth with no problem, assuming that my chain was properly sized initially. If anything, when it comes to swapping wheels, horizontal dropouts make for faster changes.

That all said, I like the look of track ends and find them to be perfectly functional, but your argument that they're superior for swapping gearing is specious at best.

point taken, but isn't asking 800 for a 580 frameset also a specious.. f a i l

an in the end, I'm always stoked to see a fixed rider no matter how much cash they dropped

Just get a real track frame. You don't want to risk that rear wheel walking out from under you when you lock up your legs.

I personally despise conversions.

There. I said it.

Pearls of wisdom from the poorly informed. If you have a rear wheel "walking out", then you haven't put it in correctly.

Pearls of wisdom from the poorly informed. If you have a rear wheel "walking out", then you haven't put it in correctly.

What do you ride?

they're meant for the track....
because there isn't a chance of the hub slipping out of the drop outs in a sprint, it's possible for it to slip forward but not out.

they're meant for the track....
because there isn't a chance of the hub slipping out of the drop outs in a sprint, it's possible for it to slip forward but not out.

bonus point, one more check on the track end side

Bottom line, I'd respect the cheapest ebay frame with track dropouts over the most classic/renowned/well-known/lightweight road frame conversion any day & twice on Sunday.

Bottom line, I'd respect the cheapest ebay frame with track dropouts over the most classic/renowned/well-known/lightweight road frame conversion any day & twice on Sunday.

Once again SSFG does not fail with completely useless and incorrect advice. Where or where would we be today without clueless posters.

99% of the posters in this forum could get by fine riding a conversion. Infac, unless you are racing on the track I don't see how a track bike is any better suited for the road than a road conversion.

Yes.

I became a bike messenger in NYC in 1992 using my father's bike, which was a 10 speed road bike. I don't remember the name but I know it was really nice. Eventually I went through a lot of frames riding SS freewheel conversions. When I switched to fixed gear in 1995, still with the conversions, I always had problems with the rear wheel moving, the chain getting loose, etc. especially under the daily grind working in the city. I had a wheel pop completely out, and since the seat tube is typically farther away on a road frame the wheel can travel more.

It was unsafe. Finally I scored a Miyata frame with horizontal dropouts. I then knew what riding fixed gear was all about. Now I will not even go close to a conversion. I know a lot of people disagree, and there are some frames that are beautiful to be used for conversions. But when you depend on your chain to stay tight & your rear wheel to stay put, it becomes a gamble.

But I feel like if it wasn't made to be ridden with a fixed gear, then it shouldn't be converted. Period.

But that's just me. You do what you like.

For instance, this wheel is just begging for freedom from the frame:

True about the setup you have posted. Still, I do not see how you can have your wheel freed from the frame riding FG drivetrain any more than the same setup freewheeling.

If there is some slippage, the wheel would rather jam against the left chainstay and lock than walk away completely.

Some people use a box wrench. Some use an open-end. Some use a ratchet with a socket. Some use vice grips.

Which one are you?

Some people use a box wrench. Some use an open-end. Some use a ratchet with a socket. Some use vice grips.

Which one are you?

Good point. A box wrench, open end, ratchet, track end or semi-horizontal dropout will work fine. Vise grips and vertical dropouts might work, but they might cause more trouble than they're worth.

I marvel at some of the advice here. If folks want a track bike for clean lines, certain aesthetics, a particular geometry, or actually riding at the velodrome, that's great. But the track fetish seems to have spilled over into bizarre assertions regarding practical advantages of track bikes on the road. Suddenly people can stop just as fast with and without brakes, clipless pedals cut loose left and right, rack and fender mounts provide no advantages, and horizontal dropouts lead to various improbable failures. If your wheel has ever come out completely, I don't know what to tell you; I can only marvel that both axle nuts weren't torqued down. (And vise grips? Seriously? If using appropriate tools is problematic, shouldn't we all lobby for QR and vertical dropouts?) As already noted, typical horizontal dropouts provide plenty of leeway for swapping cogs without adding/dropping chain links.

Track bikes are fine. If the ride suits you, that's great. But a lot of this "advice" for new riders is impractical, and some of it borders on fiction.

If you're really worried about your rear wheel moving on a conversion with horizontal dropouts, this type of chain tensioner works well:

http://www.fietspunt.nl/images/articles/large/227/227005.jpg

Not sure if these available in the states.

I got an older Nishiki frame, i got slanted, and in fact, almost horizontal drop outs, my wheel is pretty close to the frame and sit in the really nicley. Im riding 52/18 which did bring the wheel super close to the seat tube.
However, i think if one cant torque the wheel properly that it falls out they should not be riding bikes...
And i think that slanted convercions are totally fine, i would stay away from the vertical drop outs simply for the fact that youll have trouble with tensionig of your chain, but tats the only reason.

:thumb:

Bottom line, I'd respect the cheapest ebay frame with track dropouts over the most classic/renowned/well-known/lightweight road frame conversion any day & twice on Sunday.

Your post makes absolutely no sense. My little sister has an old Kent "Hollywood" box-store bike. It cost about $50 new and everything on it sucks. It has what looks like track ends - non-dropouts that open horizontally rearward.

I think his point is, when going FIXED gear, a rear facing, truely horozontal Track Fork End is the only safe correct and smart mounting for a rear wheel/hub. When resistance is applied either accelerating or resisting to slow down (including skips/scrubs/skids), the rear wheel has a tendancy to be pulled forward by that force. Such is the reason for products like the chaintug, allowing for perfect adjustment for chain tension at the rear wheel in the track fork ends, then cranking the hub bolts/nuts down, then finally prohibiting the rear wheel from sliding forward at all. Some track ends have those adjustable threaded bolts through the front of the track fork end to do the exact same thing.

With a standard semi-horizontal drop out, riding fixed gear, that force can sometimes result in the rear wheel slipping and pulling completely forward out of the dropout (unless those cool chaintugs that sandwich the rear of the dropouts are in use).

In a track bike or any bike with a rear facing horizontal track fork end (bmx included), there is NO possibility for a wheel to pull itself completely out of the dropouts... and the chain prohibits it from pulling completely out the rear while its on the cog.

Both track fork ends and semi-horizontal dropouts are ideal for single speed chain tension adjusting in almost identical fashion (allowing you to pull the rear wheel forward or backwards to tension the chain) but with a freewheel, as most road bikes with semi-horizontal dropouts have, there is never the force factor that could and would potentially pull the rear wheel forward out of the semi-horizontal dropout like a fixed gear slowing/stopping resistance force would.

Basically, if youre gonna convert any bike with semi-horozontal, forward facing dropouts to a Fixed Gear bike, tighten the heII out of your rear hub and/or please use chaintugs LOL. I actually really like the ones Carabo postes but here is the 'On-One' piece.

http://home.dekoninck.co.uk/dawes/chaintug.jpg

http://kachinas.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/images/2008/04/03/dsc03201.jpg

http://kachinas.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/images/2008/04/03/dsc03202.jpg

with a freewheel, as most road bikes with semi-horizontal dropouts have, there is never the force factor that could and would potentially pull the rear wheel forward out of the semi-horizontal dropout like a fixed gear slowing/stopping resistance force would.

There is indeed such a force on a freewheel when pedaling forwards. Yet road bikes with horizontal dropouts work just fine without wheels pulling out of the frame, as do conversions.

I think his point is, when going FIXED gear, a rear facing, truely horozontal Track Fork End is the only safe correct and smart mounting for a rear wheel/hub. When resistance is applied either accelerating or resisting to slow down (including skips/scrubs/skids), the rear wheel has a tendancy to be pulled forward by that force. Such is the reason for products like the chaintug, allowing for perfect adjustment for chain tension at the rear wheel in the track fork ends, then cranking the hub bolts/nuts down, then finally prohibiting the rear wheel from sliding forward at all. Some track ends have those adjustable threaded bolts through the front of the track fork end to do the exact same thing.

With a standard semi-horizontal drop out, riding fixed gear, that force can sometimes result in the rear wheel slipping and pulling completely forward out of the dropout (unless those cool chaintugs that sandwich the rear of the dropouts are in use).

In a track bike or any bike with a rear facing horizontal track fork end (bmx included), there is NO possibility for a wheel to pull itself completely out of the dropouts... and the chain prohibits it from pulling completely out the rear while its on the cog.

Both track fork ends and semi-horizontal dropouts are ideal for single speed chain tension adjusting in almost identical fashion (allowing you to pull the rear wheel forward or backwards to tension the chain) but with a freewheel, as most road bikes with semi-horizontal dropouts have, there is never the force factor that could and would potentially pull the rear wheel forward out of the semi-horizontal dropout like a fixed gear slowing/stopping resistance force would.

Basically, if youre gonna convert any bike with semi-horozontal, forward facing dropouts to a Fixed Gear bike, tighten the heII out of your rear hub and/or please use chaintugs LOL. I actually really like the ones Carabo postes but here is the 'On-One' piece.

http://home.dekoninck.co.uk/dawes/chaintug.jpg

http://kachinas.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/images/2008/04/03/dsc03201.jpg

http://kachinas.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/images/2008/04/03/dsc03202.jpg

Good. Someone with some sense. Thank you for this post.

For whatever reason people hold on to their conversions, justify them & suggest to others that this is the thing to do, let them go right ahead.

When someone is on the fence about whether to convert or get a track frame, I will always suggest a track frame which is what I suggested to the OP & obviously someone else did, too. I just love it when people give other people advice without stating all of the facts, especially the potential danger. Leave it to the one guy who goes out & converts his frame without having all of the facts, and injures himself or others.

Let those others stay in the dark, ignorance is bliss I guess.

Good. Someone with some sense. Thank you for this post.
...
Let those others stay in the dark, ignorance is bliss I guess.

Someone who apparently lacked any sense:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed-conversion.html

Hey he never said I superseded the knowledge of our deceased SB LOL. I reference the SB site regularly to explain things to people.

As a simple experiment:

Take a fixed gear bicycle with track fork ends, adjust the rear wheel to have proper chain tension but BARELY tighten the hub bolts/nuts.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/dropf-sub.gif

Then, take a bicycle with semi horozontal, forward facing dropouts, adjust the rear wheel to have proper chain tension but BARELY tighten the hub bolts/nuts.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/dropf-camp.gif



Then, ride both, HARD and see which one the rear wheel falls out of.

As long as you crank the p!ss out of both, theyre fairly safe... but the safest route is to leave room for human error and eliminate the worst case scenario LOL. I'm positive I will, at some point, build a fixed gear bike, with no brakes, on a road frame with semi horozontal dropouts. I will ultimately forget to tighten (or one of my friends will play a joke and loosen) the rear wheel hub bolts/nuts... and I will eat *****... and I will go buy chaintugs then LOL.

If your wheel slips, you didn't install it properly and tighten it right. If you can't trust yourself to do that, you don't just need track ends, you need a fork with lawyer lips, and someone to check your bike over once a week. I once had the wheel slip on my road bike. Guess why? The QR wasn't tight. Did it leave the frame altogether? No, because that doesn't happen in real life. If you don't want to have unexpected things happen to you, put your bike together properly. If you can't do that, get a different hobby, like Playstation. Road bikes generate just as much torque as fixed gears, but they seem fine with horizontal dropouts.........

Good. Someone with some sense. Thank you for this post.

Let those others stay in the dark, ignorance is bliss I guess.

Aren't you calling others ignorant too easy? I'd think twice if these happen to include Sheldon (see above) or Tour top riders, like the previous owner of this conversion, used as his winter trainer:
http://www.pbase.com/wojtek_burkot/image/52872956/large.jpg

I'm positive I will, at some point, build a fixed gear bike, with no brakes, on a road frame with semi horozontal dropouts. I will ultimately forget to tighten (or one of my friends will play a joke and loosen) the rear wheel hub bolts/nuts... and I will eat *****... and I will go buy chaintugs then LOL.

First, you need to stop hanging out with *******s.

Fortunately, your wheel will not come out of your frame. You will pull the wheel against your chain stay, **** up the paint, and bring yourself to a quick stop. Whether or not you eat **** will depend on your bike handling skills and your sobriety. This happens with track ends and with horizontal dropouts. Do the experiment you propose and see for yourself.

The idea that it is better to get a track frame that is unsuited to your comfort, budget, and/or riding style is like saying you should wear full downhill mtn bike body armour every time you go out for groceries just in case you make a mistake and go down or hit a car. Even though it is uncomfortable, expensive, and ugly, the minute chance that you might make a mistake makes it all worth while.

I didn't know I was asking a contraversial question in the original post! Update: based on the info in this thread I've decided to buy a frame with track ends because 1. I am a novice bike mechanic so I don't want the added challenge of fussing with chain lengths, and 2. I don't know what kind of gearing will work for me and would like to have a flip flop hub to try out a couple of options and it will be easier to do with track ends.

I'll post a pic of what I end up with. Thanks again!

I didn't know I was asking a contraversial question in the original post! Update: based on the info in this thread I've decided to buy a frame with track ends because 1. I am a novice bike mechanic so I don't want the added challenge of fussing with chain lengths, and 2. I don't know what kind of gearing will work for me and would like to have a flip flop hub to try out a couple of options and it will be easier to do with track ends.

I'll post a pic of what I end up with. Thanks again!

You, sir, are a smart individual. Congratulations on your decision & ride in good health.

Wow... I was quoting from a friends experience... but somehow you can manage to take an actual event and quote it never happened... kinda like people and theyre theories about the non-truths of global warming, the holocaust and the lunar landing. If you think the drive side chainstay is gonna completely keep a wheel from pulling out of a semi-horozontal dropout with slipping hub bolts/nuts, youre assuming, not knowing.

I'm not saying it will always pull out, I'm saying the possibility is 100%... and with Track Fork Ends, it is 0%.

Wow... I was quoting from a friends experience... but somehow you can manage to take an actual event and quote it never happened... kinda like people and theyre theories about the non-truths of global warming, the holocaust and the lunar landing. If you think the drive side chainstay is gonna completely keep a wheel from pulling out of a semi-horozontal dropout with slipping hub bolts/nuts, youre assuming, not knowing.

I'm not saying it will always pull out, I'm saying the possibility is 100%... and with Track Fork Ends, it is 0%.

I will admit that your scenario is conceivable, though highly unlikely. I stand by my point, however, that your ability to control a bike on which you improperly installed the rear wheel depends on your skills, not on whether it has track ends or dropouts. (And I stand by my point that any friends who will loosen your axle nuts are *******s.)

Let's meet up and give the experiment you propose a try in the name of science. Seriously. I'll buy you a beer afterwards. EDIT: As I think about it, we could probably get it to work how you describe pretty easily in a work stand or in the magical world of high school physics where all forces are measured in isolation, but on the ground with a rider on the bike, and the axel all the way in the dropout, I'll bet it won't happen once in ten times.

Youre probably right... If only 1 in 10 happens to slip out, I'll buy us both beer. (on my bike, my rear 700x23 tire will actually make contact with the seat tube before it can even seat all the way in the front of the fork-end... so I can imagine some road frames doing that too; locking up the rear wheel either on the seat post or drive side seat stay and prohibiting it from coming completely out of the horizontal dropouts... unless its like 99% of the road frames with much more clearance between the rear tire and seat tube than track frames).

Wow, I'm in a civil mood. Lets just drink beer anyway. I'm in Federal Hill. You ever go out on those rides on Wednesday nights around town? I'm 34 this year. My assho1e friends have all graduated to less-assho1e-ish friends and very few would ever loosen my rear wheel since I am bigger than them and will hit them a lot harder than they hit me LOL. I gotta say mashing or skidding will cause one of us to eat ***** LOL. It'll be fun.

Bottom line, I'd respect the cheapest ebay frame with track dropouts over the most classic/renowned/well-known/lightweight road frame conversion any day & twice on Sunday.
:wtf:

You trippin'.