Road Cycling - Frames made from air hardening alloy

Hi All,

I am interested in compiling a list of non-custom road frames made with air hardening alloy (such as Reynolds 853) for some portion of the frame. Non-2004 models may be included. So far, I've come up with:

1) Lemond Zurich & Maillet Juane
2) Gunnar Roadie
3) KHS Flite 800
4) Steelman Stage Race (SR)
5) Cervelo Prodigy
6) De Rosa Neo Primato & Corum
7) Jamis Eclispe

Can anyone add to the list?

--Twofer

Sycip Pave 33
Mercier Serpens
Fuji Roubaix Pro

Hi All,

I am interested in compiling a list of non-custom road frames made with air hardening alloy (such as Reynolds 853) for some portion of the frame. Non-2004 models may be included.

1)

--Twofer
And this really matters how?

Hi,
Waterford uses 2 air hardened steels in their frames; 853 is one of the two. Really nice bikes.

Reynolds is a Brummie company :)

Reynolds is a Brummie company :)
<birmingham sniping mode>
i'm not sure that's a whole lot to be proud of...
</birmingham sniping mode>

fssb
sparky

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

--Twofer

Well i'm very proud. Reynolds produce top class, world renowned steel tubing.

it's the birmingham bit that gets me though...

fssb
sparky

Sycip Pave 33
Mercier Serpens
Fuji Roubaix Pro
Fuji Marseille

And this really matters how?
Because he wants to know.Thats kinda how the forums work.You ask questions and get them answered. Its pretty easy,dont you think?

Because he wants to know.Thats kinda how the forums work.You ask questions and get them answered. Its pretty easy,dont you think?Just wonderd what I might be missing. It would not be on my list of criteria.Maybe you can provide some insight,since he did not seem willing or able to.I would hate to screw up on my next big ticket purchase.

That could be why twofer asked. Maybe you could start a thread on insight for your next big ticket purchase. I bet Twofer will have some useful insight for you. We all want to be helpful. Don't you?

Isn't Columbus FOCO air-hardened? If so, add the Specialized Allez Cr-Mo models (Comp and Elite).

He's got cervelo on the list and i dont think its 853.

I recently bought a Jamis 2002 Eclipse and it is very sweet and I got a nice deal on www.bicycleblowout.com

It is an 853 frame.

Nice bikes.

For all you who may wonder why I originally asked the question on bike frames made from air hardening alloys; I was curious to see how well accepted the alloy had become by framemakers.

Late - Which Waterford models have air hardening alloy? I would like to include them on the list if they are not custom models.

Shokhead - Thanks for the feedback on the Cervelo. When you say it is not 853, does that mean it is not any type of air hardening alloy?

Tommy2pants - should I infer from your statement that you don't care what your bike is made of? Or that all steels are the same regardless of alloy type? BTW, did you forget to include the word "tight" after the "2" in your name?

Thanks again everyone. My list now stands as below. Any others I should add/remove?

1&2) Lemond Zurich & Maillet Juane
3) Gunnar Roadie
4) KHS Flite 800
5) Steelman Stage Race (SR)
6) De Rosa Neo Primato & Corum
7) Jamis Eclipse
8) Sycip Pave 33
9) Mercier Serpens
10&11) Fuji Roubaix Pro and Marseille
12&13) Specialized Allez Comp and Elite

--Twofer

Some more production frames (and inexpensive, I might add):

Interloc Impala Race

Salsa La Raza

Soma Smoothie Road

Rippin - Thanks for the additions to the list.

I also read somewhere that the Schwinn Peloton was an 853 frame, so I added it to the list.

My list of air hardening alloy frames now stands as below. I am still hoping for further additions or corrections ya'll may have.

1&2) Lemond Zurich & Maillet Juane
3) Gunnar Roadie
4) KHS Flite 800
5) Steelman Stage Race (SR)
6) De Rosa Neo Primato & Corum
7) Jamis Eclipse
8) Sycip Pave 33
9) Mercier Serpens
10&11) Fuji Roubaix Pro and Marseille
12&13) Specialized Allez Comp and Elite
14) Interloc Impala Race
15) Salsa La Raza
16) Soma Smoothie Road
17) Schwinn Peloton

--Twofer

The '03 and '04 Jamis Eclipse is now 853/carbon stays. If you can find a '02, it is all 853. I found one this winter and it is a dream to ride.

Is'nt some of the bianchi's 520 or 631 or 853?

Rippin - Thanks for the additions to the list.

I also read somewhere that the Schwinn Peloton was an 853 frame, so I added it to the list.

My list of air hardening alloy frames now stands as below. I am still hoping for further additions or corrections ya'll may have.

1&2) Lemond Zurich & Maillet Juane
3) Gunnar Roadie
4) KHS Flite 800
5) Steelman Stage Race (SR)
6) De Rosa Neo Primato & Corum
7) Jamis Eclipse
8) Sycip Pave 33
9) Mercier Serpens
10&11) Fuji Roubaix Pro and Marseille
12&13) Specialized Allez Comp and Elite
14) Interloc Impala Race
15) Salsa La Raza
16) Soma Smoothie Road
17) Schwinn Peloton

--Twofer


De Rosa Corums are now made with Dedacciai EOM 16.5 - Is that tubing air hardened?

Lets put it this way - Every steel manufacturer who produces a top end steel tubeset? They're 'air hardened', cold drawn, heat treated tubesets that don't loose strength in the Heat Affected Zone after welding.

That includes -

Columbus Foco and UltraFoco
Reynolds 853
Dedacciai EOM 16.5
True Temper S3 and OX Platinum.

There maybe others ( in fact, I'm sure their are ), but they're the main ones. My personal preference is not for 853, but it is probably the most resiliant and common variety.

Now, I'm not sure what the point is of compiling a list of off-the-shelf frames ( Although I hardly consider anything the Sycip Bros or Steelman make as such ) because I mean, it's like comparing houses made of the same bricks. See what I mean? There's nothing new or amazing about these steels, and they're used extensively by a LOT of companies.

Howdy from Tucson:
Co-Motion, Eugenen, OR builds custom and non-custom beautiful singles and tandems using Reynolds.

Thylacine - Thanks for your input. I never proposed that frame material was the most important factor in choosing a frame (that was Tommy2pants' own inference). I assume that most people would agree with me that it should be one of the factors, though.

If it makes sense that one should decide between aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon, for a frame material when choosing a bike, why wouldn't it also make sense to go through a similar selection process to further refine the frame material choice once one of the broad categories has been chosen? Afterall, there are different grades of material in each of the broad categories (even carbon is indicated as having different types). I would say that the steel category has one of widest range of alloy types, and that some of those tube and alloy combinations are more "budget" oriented and some are more performance oriented. Why wouldn't it make sense to choose to examine the more performance oriented tube sets after questions of fit, etc., have been addressed?

Also, you say that Reynolds 853 is not your preference for an air hardening alloy. May I ask what is your preference and why? 853 appears to be the most popular air hardening alloy among frame makers. Is that because it is the easiest to work with? Reynolds' marketing clout?

I was at my LBS and discovered that the Serotta Classique is made from 853 and have added to my list. (BTW, is the Serotta CSI made from an air hardening alloy?).

Zonatandem - Thanks for the tip on Co-Motion.

I have revised my list as below. Thanks for everyone's input and comments. I have found them all to be helpful and look forward to receiving more.

1&2) Lemond: Zurich & Maillet Juane
3) Gunnar Roadie
4) KHS Flite 800
5) Steelman Stage Race (SR)
6) De Rosa: Neo Primato & Corum
7) Jamis Eclipse
8) Sycip Pave 33
9) Mercier Serpens
10&11) Fuji: Roubaix Pro and Marseille
12&13) Specialized: Allez Comp and Elite
14) Interloc Impala Race
15) Salsa La Raza
16) Soma Smoothie Road
17) Schwinn Peloton
18) Serotta Classique
19&20) Co-Motion: Espresso & Nor'Wester

--Twofer

Kelly makes a road frame and other models as well from OX Platinum. Also Depserado Cycles uses OX Platinum. FWIW Waterford uses 853 and OX Platinuim.

Thylacine,
S3 from True Temper is pretty amazing for steel and it is a new alloy. When you can build a sub 3.5 lb frame from steel and it holds up that is amazing.

I disagree. When it comes to steel, all alloys are basically a chromium manganese base ( ie: CroMo or 4130 ). So basically what you have is very, very similar compositions. For simplicity sake there's really only 2 sorts you need to care about - micro-alloyed steels ( air hardening or non ) and 4130 ( normalised or heat treated ). All the branded steels I mentioned previously basically perform the same, so a discussion about the various merits of each is moot for the average, non-metalurgist consumer.

Now, tubing shape, size, geometry - these are more important than a list of people who use air hardening steel alloys. The list is long - it's like listing everyone that uses 7005 Al. It's kind of pointless, really.

Hunter, as far as I know, S3 is not a new alloy. What is amazing about it is how damn useless it is. It's hard to work with, it's stupid thin ( we're talking .38mm in the middle from memory ) and it makes for one incredibly flexy, scary frame. Anyone can make a 3.5lb frame currently from Foco or OX Platinum anyway, and the added hassle and cost launches S3 into titanium territory. No competition there as far as I'm concerned.

Twofer, 853 I believe was the first alloy of it's kind, and was initially only available in the three main tubes. It's a bit thicker and easier to work with than something like Columbus Foco - it's why something like an IndyFab is a couple of oz heavier than everyone else. 853 has just captured the bulk of the market for who knows what reason, although you could argue that Columbus is quite a bit more popular with the smaller custom houses. There's a lot of marketing and distribution factors to consider why something is more popular. Never assume popular automatically equals better.

Especially in the bike industry!

Its not pointless if he wants to know and have a list. Its getting to be that if you ask a question and somebody doesnt like it,its pointless,dumb,waste of time,well its not to him. Should we ask permission to ask a question before we post it? I think the list is usefull for someone looking at a steel bike even if some of these have changed for 04.

2004 Serotta CSi is niobium (columbus) tubing.
I tried to get more info on this tubeset but Columbus
site is not up (under construction).
I did find this on the Serotta Message board:

"Spirit tubing is made out of Niobium, a special microalloyed steel with Manganese, Chrome, Nickel, Molybdenum et Niobium. It has greater mechanical properties and better resistance to corrosion than conventional carbon steel tubing. The finer grains obtains with Niobium increase strength while Chromium and Molybdenum ensure resistance to corrosion and fatigue. The shape of tube has been redone to optimise strength and handling. The coefficient of reliability, resistance to fatigue, corrosion and the performance of this steel alloy is greater than the other one at a reduce weight. Perfect for the cyclist or racer that his fundamental criteria is reliability and lightness"

Marty

spectrum,sachs,landshark,masi,iron horse,waterford,pegoretti.

2004 Serotta CSi is niobium (columbus) tubing.
I tried to get more info on this tubeset but Columbus
site is not up (under construction).
I did find this on the Serotta Message board:


Marty


Columbus' website haven't been updated in ages (unless they have a new url that I don't know about).

I kinda like this list as it covers a range of (mostly) reputable manufacturers which offer (mostly) affordable 853 frames, which is exactly what I'm looking for. I don't need anything fancy or overly expensive - stuff $1000 and under for a frame.

Actually all of Serotta's new steel frames are made
of Niobium.
The columbus page looks new, maybe they're really
updating it this time.
Marty

I know this isn't the name of a manufacturer using air hardened steel in a specific model, but perhaps these links will provide some info for comparative purposes.

Joe Bringheli is the US importer of Dedacciai. His site has some technical info on the tubes if you click on the steel link:

www.bringheli.com

He has tube sets other than those he has listed icons for.


A site listing info on True Temper tubing is:

www.henryjames.com

Henry describes the S3 tubing like True Temper, as a new alloy, but also states that it's ultimate tensile strength is similar to OX Platinum. S3 is available from Henry James precut for compact frames only, and he says it produces a frame weighing ~2.85lbs.

The new Columbus Spirit and Life tubesets are alloyed with Niobium - the schpiel on the Serotta website is pretty much right. This tubeset is brand new so I know little about it, but I'm curious to see if it's the same deal as Richeys Nitanium frames, or whatever he called them.
Spirit is in the S3 level of scaryness, Life is a similar tube spec to Foco, just with this new alloy.

Anyway, this is a bit OT, isnt it? =] It's not like you'll see it on sub 1000 buck frames anyway.

If I may be so bold, you can add my Thylacine Tephra to the list =] Although it aint under 1000 bucks, but if you take the powdercoat option it'd be close.

Hunter and Shokhead - Thanks for the additional names. I'll go to the manufacture's respective websites and determine which models to include.

Thylacine - While the composition differences between tubes may be small, isn't it the composition which allows for different heat treating processes and tube dimensions? For example, it is my understanding that because an air hardening alloy strengthens near a weld zone, the thin section of an air hardening butted tube in a welded frame may be longer than a non-air hardening tube, and thus the tube weighs less. Plus, due to the air hardening quality, the thick section of the butted tube in a welded frame need not be as thick as a non-air hardening tube, and thus the tube may weigh less. Additionally, air hardening alloy tubes allow light and durable steel frames to be contructed without lugs, which also saves weight. Each one of these differences is due to using an air hardening alloy, and leads to a lighter, but still durable frame. (I am not a frame maker, so please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.)

I would agree that, while there may be actual realized differences in a finished frame due to the tube alloy, the differences may be so small as to border on insignificant. However, steel frame making is such a mature technology, that, after price, fit and geometry are choosen, such small differences as realized by tube alloy may be deciding factors. With that being said, a bike forum is not conducive to exploring all decisions relating to buying a bike. For example, while price and fit are critical, forum discussions don't help me learn how much money I have available to spend on a bike, and bike fitment is best decided by a road test.

BTW, I am happy to add the Tephra to my list. I will post up the revised list when I get the time to track down the specific models of the newly added manufacturers.

--Twofer

No, the thin butted sections of each tube are entirely dependant on the tube that the framebuilder selects for that specific part of the frame.

For example - If you're clever, you can often chose a longer tube than you normally would so that you get a longer middle section than you would if you spec'd a tube that in its raw state, was close to the right size.

High end steels simply have better mechanical properties than regular 4130 - that's why they can be made thinnner yet still retaining high mechanical values. A tube that is .1 of a millimeter thinner in wall thickness all round yeilds about a 20% weight savings, so if you can thin the wall down by a fraction yet use a higher strength alloy, ( which is the idea behind the high end steels, and pretty much most materials really ) then you're on a winner.

Now the issue is, is that at super thin wall thicknesses and larger diameters, tube material has to be very hard to prevent 'coke-canning' or denting. That's a whole series of other problems.

Here's some tech spiel on True Temper OX Platinum vs 853 -

"OX PLATINUM is an air hardening alloy, like 853. There are other significant differences: The key difference is that OX PLATINUM anneals very slowly compared to 853 (and to 4130).

At, and just beyond, a TIG weld or brass fillet, the temperature goes above 1500 degrees F. This is the temperature that triggers hardening of these alloys as they cool in air. The tensile strength goes up to over 210 Ksi. So far so good.

But what about the area beyond which does not get up to the air hardening threshold? With 853 (and 4130) the steel anneals. The strength drops significantly. OX PLATINUM resists annealing, so it retains more of its strength in this area.

Do remember that strength is not related to stiffness. Both alloys will retain their stiffness. In certain crash situations, the OX PLATINUM will survive where 853 won't, because the PLATINUM alloy retains more strength in the area of the tube that is heated between 1000 to 1500 degrees. The higher strength is also found to increase fatigue life of welded frames about 15% beyond 853."

Ionic Steelhead