By way of an experiment I've decided to allow gas (petrol) powered bikes to be discussed here too as many issues around applying non-human motive force to a bicycle are issues in common; And by logical extension from that I would imagine that diesel, steam, wind, etc & etc could be discussed too. However when it comes to seriously technical questions about these sources of energy it might well be better to seek out a specialist forum in which to find the answers you might need.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/Sianelleofavelorn/FrenchRocketBike.jpg?t=1216853612

C'mon, most fuel powered bikes are cheap two-stroke kits with worse emissions than an SUV. They only wreck for the air quality for the rest of us.

Yes I do realise that the two strokes aren't especially clean running, but at least they don't guzzle fuel like there is no tomorrow. When it comes to prying folk out of their ridiculous oversized motorcars we have to start somewhere afterall.

I am a keen e.cyclist btw. I've only just returned home with my electric assisted tricycle loaded with all the week's groceries and some firewood as well :thumb::D

I'd rather they stay in their cars unless they're getting a fuel injected motorcycle. The emissions are just that bad. Charging your electric trike probably causes fewer emissions than the food I eat to pedal my bikes. Most gas kits I've seen though have worse emissions than 5 hummers. Many two strokes even send a third of the fuel unburnt out the tailpipe. It doesn't matter if they get 200mpg when they're spewing out unburnt fuel all over the place. Electric bikes: sometimes even greener than pedaling, Gas bikes: dirtier than any car made today. So why allow them in this forum?

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-throttle11-2008jun11,0,3268856.story

As I said it's an experiment and I'd like to get as much feedback as possible from forum members.

Electricity in NZ comes from almost 100% renewables since we use mostly hydro, geothermal and wind generation. Gas fired, oil burning & etc are a backup system only.

My feedback is the same as Maxwell. To me, some of the essential things about a bicycle is that you can pedal them and take them onto the trails, MUPs, and sidewlaks. I just can't see anyone not minding these gas powered bicycles on these places. They're loud, smelly, and too powerful. Also, most gas powered bicycle owners don't even bothering pedaling. These things are a lot closer to mopeds rather than bicycles.

My feedback is the same as Maxwell. To me, some of the essential things about a bicycle is that you can pedal them and take them onto the trails, MUPs, and sidewlaks. I just can't see anyone not minding these gas powered bicycles on these places. They're loud, smelly, and too powerful. Also, most gas powered bicycle owners don't even bothering pedaling. These things are a lot closer to mopeds rather than bicycles.

Can I have some cheese with that whine? :D I go with what Sianelle says.

The forum is called Electric Bikes. No internal combustion engines allowed.

I'd rather resign from Bike Forums than allow this group to become a forum for polluting, gas-gussling ICE users who already have their own forums where they can carry on their own narrow discussions.

I'm sorry, it's them or me.

I don't care if the emitions are worth than a lactose intolerant elephant drinking warm milk. Things have changed. the people must do what ever it take, what ever it costs to get from point A to point B with using the least amount of gas possible. Plants like CO2 right? well, then we're killing 2 birds with 1 stone. but seeing as i know most people wont buy into that, I think its time we all wake up and face the fact that one day, getting to where you need to go is becoming more important than what we are doing to get there and do what ever it take, even if its the environment that is at stake. I for one don't believe in global warming at all. I trust the scientists, not the media. like all things, we need to start somewhere. things get more advanced over time. the car wasn't perfect when it first came out. I think one day these things will have serious potential. hell, maybe one day they will used E85 ethinal, or even E100 ethinal. you people need to give these things a chance. ya never know. they may one day come back to surprise ya.

CO2 is not the pollution we're concerned with when it comes to these motors. It's all the other toxic stuff that a car's catalyic converter and other components catch or burn up before it leaves the tailpipe. In fact, the CO2 emitted from lawnmower type of engines is significantly less than that of the average car.

Gas powered bikes don't follow the same legalities of eBikes in Ontario. I'm pretty sure it's similar elsewhere.

I would leave gas powered bikes out of this forum because you could be opening this forum up to mass confusion regarding power systems, laws, advocacy and so on.

I VOTE NO!

them or me? WOW... what an attitude. maybe that's part of the problem - nobody wants to LEARN and/or EDUCATE about alternative methods of bicycle assistance.

fact is, electric is limited RANGE, oil not nearly so much. I suggest, at least try and look beyond the differences and embrace the vast amount of similarities. least of which is death or severe injury when ran over by cars/truck.

maybe more people need to LEARN that there are much better options than 2 cycle engines? the uniformed assume wrongly because they refuse to OPEN their minds to ALTERNATIVES all while "posing" as alternative thinkers. why segregate people any further? short-sighted and selfishness is the only answer to that question we can see by those remarks...

Sister Annie - all the best to you.

them or me? WOW... what an attitude. maybe that's part of the problem - nobody wants to LEARN and/or EDUCATE about alternative methods of bicycle assistance.

fact is, electric is limited RANGE, oil not nearly so much. I suggest, at least try and look beyond the differences and embrace the vast amount of similarities. least of which is death or severe injury when ran over by cars/truck.

maybe more people need to LEARN that there are much better options than 2 cycle engines? the uniformed assume wrongly because they refuse to OPEN their minds to ALTERNATIVES all while "posing" as alternative thinkers. why segregate people any further? short-sighted and selfishness is the only answer to that question we can see by those remarks...

Sister Annie - all the best to you.

FACT IS: GAS POWERED BIKES ARE ILLEGAL IN ONTARIO!

There's no point in me, or anyone else in our province, even discussing about gas powered bikes since they're irrelevant.

The whole point behind electric bikes is to get rid of petrol. So why go backwards to 1903 and make gas powered bikes all over again?

http://www.speedtracktales.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/1903~Harley.jpg

You want to talk alternatives? Talk about Hydrogen powered, Talk about compressed air powered and so on.

Gas powered is not the alternative, it's the old way to power bikes that we should be going away from. EBikes are the alternative to gas powered bikes. You have it all backwards.

You want to talk alternatives? Talk about Hydrogen powered, Talk about compressed air powered and so on.



Ok, sounds good, - so go ahead and talk about them :thumb:

The simple truth of the matter is that not very many gas powered bicycle folk are going to visit the forum as there is a very good forum 'out there' already for them where all the business of the rules, regulations and legal stuff gets discussed to the finest degree. So don't worry the E.bike forum isn't going to get invaded by the Great Unwashed. No need to go symbolically burning any membership cards or anything.
I had a fortunate upbringing in that I was encouraged by my Dad to learn about the use of tools and how to do my own spannerwork. I own a lathe and know how to use it and I can weld, braze and solder nice and neatly. I hold a great interest in alternative power sources and I love bicycles as well. If anyone wants to search the Patent Office database with the keywords 'bicycle motor' and limit the search to nothing after 1910 you'll swiftly discover just how many inventive minds had turned to the means of alternative power for bicycles during the 'heroic' era. As an example there are a stunning amount of patents for clockwork and spring power assisted bicycles which has to be the greenest power source of all.
Perhaps I should change this thread's subject line to 'Gas and otherwise powered bikes welcome here too'.

Has our moderator totally lost it?
Never mind the BS about how it gets people out of cars. This is not on topic and should be talked about in the right place. All you are doing is pi**ing people off. Me included

Has our moderator totally lost it?
Never mind the BS about how it gets people out of cars. This is not on topic and should be talked about in the right place. All you are doing is pi**ing people off. Me included

No no I haven't lost it, - I just wanted to discuss the alternatives as there have been folk asking about whether or not there is a forum for other forms of propulsion.
I could change the title of the sticky thread to Alternative power sources for bikes welcome here too.'

C'mon, most fuel powered bikes are cheap two-stroke kits with worse emissions than an SUV. They only wreck for the air quality for the rest of us.

While its true the cheapest kits are 2-stroke, there are many motor kits that utilize less polluting four strokes. Which can provide those that need assistance an alternative when the electric kits will not suit their needs.

Or make one sticky for gas powered crap so the rest of us can just not look at it.

Or make one sticky for gas powered crap so the rest of us can just not look at it.

Could be good, - thanks for the suggestion :)

them or me? WOW... what an attitude. maybe that's part of the problem - nobody wants to LEARN and/or EDUCATE about alternative methods of bicycle assistance.

fact is, electric is limited RANGE, oil not nearly so much. I suggest, at least try and look beyond the differences and embrace the vast amount of similarities. least of which is death or severe injury when ran over by cars/truck.

maybe more people need to LEARN that there are much better options than 2 cycle engines? the uniformed assume wrongly because they refuse to OPEN their minds to ALTERNATIVES all while "posing" as alternative thinkers. why segregate people any further? short-sighted and selfishness is the only answer to that question we can see by those remarks...

Sister Annie - all the best to you.
I totally agree with you 100%. right now, we all need to learn what we are talking about before we can even begin to make a definite decision. what is so bad about gas bikes besides the pollution? it wouldn't hurt to have a section for gas bike. in fact, we should have a section devoted to alternative ways of propulsion. battery, ethanol, hydrogen, gas included. we need to explore the idea and give it a chance to develop to understand the topic more to see if these can be good ideas or not. true not too many people would use a bike such as these, but the fact that there ARE people who DO makes it more than enough to be worth while to have JUST IN CASE someone wants to talk about it. Edison was laughed at until he proved the light bulb can work. I think that gas bike are following the same path. think about it like this: in the city, police use bicycles. now, if they NEEDED the power and speed to chase a criminal they could use gas so catching the crook would be easier. I'm sure in time the situations that this kind of bike can be applied to will start to number up. I personally don't want to ever own a gas bike, but I'm not stubborn to the point where i think we shouldn't even talk about it just cuz i wouldn't use one. and i think more people should see it like I am. just my 2 cents.



My vote is yes. We need something like this. to open up our minds to the reality of what could be, instead of letting them close and prevent the chance for new things to have a chance at life. for if peoples minds were so closed, man would never have moved on from the stone age.

I was a moped mechanic for a few years back in the 70's when I worked for a shop that sold and rented them along with bikes. I can attest that they are a completely different animal with regards to every aspect explored in this forum from the technical, to the legal, to the kind of ways they are used from bicycles.

They also attracted a different kind of rider. A rider that has virtually no interest in the synthesis of the human body with the machine. You don't have to train to get a gas powered engine to go 25 mph. You don't have to work harder to ride it into the wind or up a 10% grade.

Other than the fact that it has a seat, 2 wheels and a handlebar I think it has little in common with most of what I see discussed in BF.

On a side note the moped rentals we did were in a tourist town and at the end of the day we'd hop on a tandem bike and hunt down the mopeds that had not been returned by closing. I'd throw another bike racer/mechanic on the back of the tandem and off we'd tear at around 30 mph delighting in chasing down the darned things, which topped out at 25 mph. Then we'd take the moped away from the person, they were usually drunk, and I'd draft my partner on the moped back to the shop. We'd get a great workout in gathering up the things at the end of the day. And for what it's worth as loathed as cyclists can be these low powered gas engined bikes were at the top of the "I hate them!" list for everyone in town.

i love the elitism in an electric bike forum, maybe just manning up and pedaling is in order *shurgs*

I have no objection to any different powered bikes in this forum; it may be fun.

Its sad when folks actually leave or threaten to leave but quite frankly, adding diversity may infuse wider experience and better expertise on this forum.

This thread needs a poll for which its members can vote upon. the people are demanding it. with every post, is a yearn to officially tally up how many people want to see a great change and invoke a new light into the realm of endless possibilities.

As requested I've placed a poll at the top of the thread. Please vote, I want this to be a completely democratic decision :)

I signed up for a bike forum. Electric bikes happen to not pollute. Gas bikes do. But they are both bikes, and that trumps any emissions argument to shun them.

I support Sianelle's experiment. Perhaps someday a gas-powered bike sub-forum will exist here too.

The forum is called "BikeForums". Assisted bikes are great as long as they provide the experience of riding a bicycle. This includes riding on bike trails and MUPs and riding with other cyclists. It's hard to imagine any cyclist enjoy following a 2 stroke engine, breathing in those wonderful pollutants, listening to a lawnmower engine. Can you imagine taking a 2 stroke engine and taking it around all the places a bicycle can go: sidewalk, parks, bike paths, etc... Who'd want a lawn mower in all these places?

If we add ICE bikes, why not add a scooter forum. For that matter, a motorcycle forum?

Buzzman wrote (re:mopeds)
They also attracted a different kind of rider.
Sounds like an electric rider, hence opening the forum to gas powered.

Metricoclock wrote
i love the elitism in an electric bike forum, maybe just manning up and pedaling is in order *shurgs*
Guess I missed the elitism but manning up is tough after quadruple heart surgery; thats why I ride electric. BTW: What does "shurgs" mean

If we add ICE bikes, why not add a scooter forum. For that matter, a motorcycle forum?

Nope, because scooters and motorcycles aren't bicycles. It must use pedals and be equipped with pedals to be called a bicycle - and those pedals must be able to be used as the primary method of propulsion. As large and heavy as my adult tricycle is I can still pedal it about without using the electric hub motor.

Please vote, I want this to be a completely democratic decision

I've counted several people (anti) who used this thread as their first post to the Electric forum. Unfortunately Sianelle, I don't expect it to be very democratic.

I'm reluctant to vote because I'm not into shutting anybody down but I really don't see the point. But then I simply don't have to participate in the discussion.

Personally, I'm not fond of 2 cycle engines. I speak not out of ignorance on this count but of experience. These gas powered machines are neither a true motorcycle nor are they a bicycle. They increase in popularity during times of gas shortage. The Solex, an early French front friction mounted bike, was popular in Europe post WW II, they made a brief come back during the 1970's gas crisis and then the chain driven frame mounted engines appeared now they are reappearing. They seem like a good idea but they tend to be more of a fad than a practical means of transport. They offer a band-aid like solution to bigger problems, they are noisy, burn dirty, not much faster than many bike riders, and are dangerous. The number of accidents we saw on them when I was selling and renting them was really high. Much higher than bikes, cars or regular motorcycles.

And, as I said in a previous post, if you think people get mad at bike riders- whew! everybody from pedestrians, to bicyclists to drivers hated these things after a while.

edit:

I've counted several people (anti) who used this thread as their first post to the Electric forum. Unfortunately Sianelle, I don't expect it to be very democratic.

by all means count me among them and don't let me rain on your parade. I express interest in this because I occasionally see these machines on bike paths, in bike lanes and other places bicyclists ride. Sorry but some of us prefer non-motorized vehicles being kept separate from these facilities. The appearance of gas powered engines on BF could be construed as a precursor to the desire for the operators of these vehicles to be included with bikes on certain facilities, in terms of certain legislation etc. and I, for one, would prefer they not be and would resist their inclusion.

thank you. as of now, its tied. 4 v 4.

You guys don't care for me here. That's fine. My friend has a hub motor ebike, and a bike with a clip on 2 stroke gas motor. I have questions about it. So it might be useful if somebody here did know about them.

For me gas or electric, about the same. Gas powered by oil. Electric powered by coal. Both dirty.


So I'd like to change my vote from NO, to YES.

You guys don't care for me here. That's fine. My friend has a hub motor ebike, and a bike with a clip on 2 stroke gas motor. I have questions about it. So it might be useful if somebody here did know about them.

I personally think that gas powered bicycles should have their own sub-forum, or "electric bikes" should be renamed to "powered bikes."

I've voted no for two reasons, one reason is objectively based, and the other containing an opinion on a different reasoning:

1. The only thing gas bikes share with electric ones is their ability to propel the bicycle. All other mechanics are completely dissimilar, including technical applications and discussion, and I think that the complexity of discussion could use multiple threads - Perhaps having a split into sub forums (The way regional discussions are done as an example) might be a good option. This alone was not enough to cause the "no" vote, it would have been a vote for "sticky thread", however:

2. How they are dissimilar from "bicycles" - As much as I enjoy people choosing practical alternatives to hauling themselves with 3600lbs of vehicular steel, the gas bike is a fine option for choosing to get around on the roads and I have nothing against them. However, I find that unlike the electric bicycle, the gasoline variant is much closer to a scooter or LSM than a bicycle -

Gas bikes aren't community friendly to the same level as electrics are, and riding them on anything but the road is typically disruptive to the locale. This is very unlike a bicycle, which can integrate with the surrounding environment with very little reaction, having gas bikes rolling around green spaces and paths where bicycles normally travel is unenjoyable. Simply put, gas bikes do not "integrate" like other bikes do, and share little aside from their ability to be pedalled. Despite their having a human operated drive train, operating them in a responsible and respectable fashion is nearly identical to the fashion in which a scooter or moped would be used, and in my eyes categorizes them as such.

I simply believe there are better places for the discussion of gasoline powered bicycles, both practically and thematically.

I guess it was to be expected - like those flocks of birds who will attack their own to the death if a simple ribbon were placed on one. Can't handle diversity! Hold your heads high - be proud of yourselves for protecting the "electric way" as the "only way" to alternative transportation!

And while you're standing there all puffed up - think about how most gassers can be more easily pedaled with the engine off than any of those "electric scooters" with pedals or even a Crystalyte hub motored eBikes. I personally feel any type of "power assisted" bicycle should be included under ONE heading.

As if Segways have more in common to bicycles than a Golden Eagle or Staton drive kit???

C'mon, most fuel powered bikes are cheap two-stroke kits with worse emissions than an SUV. They only wreck for the air quality for the rest of us.

You know, through a discussion, we can educate more about WHY the 2 stroke engine is so polluting and how a 4 stroke is more reliable, efficient and a better purchase. While on such a thread, one might also inform how a new rider can ween him/her self from a gas or electric assisted propulsion to a fully biological one.

Or you could simply be elitists and close off all forms of new thought.

CE

You know, through a discussion, we can educate more about WHY the 2 stroke engine is so polluting and how a 4 stroke is more reliable, efficient and a better purchase. While on such a thread, one might also inform how a new rider can ween him/her self from a gas or electric assisted propulsion to a fully biological one.

Or you could simply be elitists and close off all forms of new thought.

CE

^^^^I've not seen a 4 stroke kit that includes a catalytic converter, or evaporative emissions system. So I'd say the 4 stroke kits are pretty dirty as well.

wow. 11 for yes, 11 for no and 2 for sort of.

Ah, - some of the very latest engines do have catalytic exhaust systems and it looks like it's going to be a continuing trend.

As requested I've placed a poll at the top of the thread. Please vote, I want this to be a completely democratic decision :)

Then where's the 'BF is for 100% human-powered bicycles' option??

I kid, I kid. But as I was not a BF member when the e-bike forum was created (or didn't pay attention to the debate if I was), I am a bit curious--how many pedal purists threatened to quit BF when a new e-bike forum was first discussed?

Then where's the 'BF is for 100% human-powered bicycles' option??

I kid, I kid. But as I was not a BF member when the e-bike forum was created (or didn't pay attention to the debate if I was), I am a bit curious--how many pedal purists threatened to quit BF when a new e-bike forum was first discussed?

None...although no one really thought there was all that much interest in e-bikes :p .

We were wrong!

East Hill

Nope, because scooters and motorcycles aren't bicycles. It must use pedals and be equipped with pedals to be called a bicycle - and those pedals must be able to be used as the primary method of propulsion. As large and heavy as my adult tricycle is I can still pedal it about without using the electric hub motor.

Well. Gas powered bikes aren't considered bikes either under Ontario Law. They're called Mopeds. The rules are different.

1 - They need licence, insurance and registration.
2 - The top speed is much higher.
3 - They're not allowed on bike paths (trails).
4 - When a rider gets a ticket they get demerit points, which doesn't happen for cyclists.
5 - They're not required to be primarily pedal powered
6 - Helmet standards are different. Bike helmets are not allowed
7 - Flashers, headlights, taillights and so on are required

There are so many differences that Mopeds just aren't considered Bicycles under Ontario Law. And under Ontario law "assisted bicycles" can't use gasoline engines. They must be electric.

It's pretty much the same in most areas of the world I think. You have your answer right there. Mopeds aren't bicycles.

I guess it was to be expected - like those flocks of birds who will attack their own to the death if a simple ribbon were placed on one. Can't handle diversity! Hold your heads high - be proud of yourselves for protecting the "electric way" as the "only way" to alternative transportation!


This is where you fail to understand what's really going on. Electric bikes are the alternative to gas powered bikes. "Assisted bicycles" used to allow gasoline engines under 50cc in Ontario. In 2006, Ontario changed the laws and now only electric drive is allowed.

What you call an "alternative" to electric drive is completely wrong. EBikes are the alternative to gas powered bikes. They were developed as an alternative to gasoline powered bikes to get rid of all the problems of gas powered bikes. Namely:

1 - Noise
2 - Smell
3 - Pollution
4 - Dripping fluids all over the place (oil, gasoline)

None...although no one really thought there was all that much interest in e-bikes :p .

We were wrong!

East Hill

Told you so! Remember, I was one of the guys pushing for the eBike forum? I knew the gas crissis was coming and eBikes would gain in popularity.

Has our moderator totally lost it?

I think so. The Moderator has forgotten the purpose of this forum. When it was created, why it was created, who created it and so on.

The forum is called "ELECTRIC BIKES" for a reason!

.

It's pretty much the same in most areas of the world I think. You have your answer right there. Mopeds aren't bicycles.

Here where I live, under 50cc are exempt from all licensing. 50cc and over are motorcycles. I find nothing pertaining to electric motor bikes in our law at all. Legally in a gray area? My buddy has never had a problem legally with either his gas or electric bike.
Side question. He has a 49cc ebay Chinese made 2 stroke clip on motor. It uses an odd ball size drive chain. I've been to bike shops and motorcycle shops. Bike stuff is too small, motorcycle stuff is spaced wrong (it uses very short links). Any ideas where to look for a chain?

For me gas or electric, about the same. Gas powered by oil. Electric powered by coal. Both dirty.

Well, I guess along the same lines of argument... American food... produced using coal and oil. Dirty as well.

You do realize that of the three -- gas power, electric power, human power -- electric in general is the cleanest form of power for bicycles?

we are not trying to make this forum go backwards by having an addition of gas bikes, but instead make it have a more broad range of topics to suit even the most "out there" kind of people. I for one do not think the gas for should be with the Ebike, but they should also have a dedicated section. i honestly dont see what the problem is. I dont see how it can hurt to just add one. whats do you guy think will happen? Can we at least have a temporary section devoted to this to see if its worth keeping? cuz we can debate all we like but untill we see how it will actually plays out, we will never really know if its a good or bad idea.

Well, I guess along the same lines of argument... American food... produced using coal and oil. Dirty as well.

You do realize that of the three -- gas power, electric power, human power -- electric in general is the cleanest form of power for bicycles?

My Electricity comes from Nuke. My parents electricity comes from Hydro.

At least with Electricity, you have the option of where your power comes from. Example: If you have an eBike in Matane, Quebec; your electricity comes from Wind and when it's not windy from Hydro.