Preface I love Phil Ligget. He's been great, and I'm sure he's forgotten more about profesional cycling than I'll ever know.

However, I think he's finally lost it. For several years his calls have been slipping, and he gets more and more wrong.

Yesterday on L'Alpe de huez, he just did not get what was going on, even after Paul repeatedly tried to explain it to him.

Ligget kept saying Frnak Schleck didn't have it, and his attaacks which should be sticking weren't.

Ligget totally missed that Frank Schleck and Andy Schleck were trying to disrupt Evans, not trying to chase down their teammate Sastre.

It was embarassing for Phil, when he kept making inane comments even with Paul trying to explain it to him.

I'm afraid Ligget's best days are behind him.

Honestly, I didn't see it like that. Phil and Paul disagree on lots of stuff, and they get it wrong alot, too. I mean over the years its always like that.

They have to comentate on what they see on the race video, and they miss riders names all the time, or get confused as to what group they are seeing. I didn't really see any degradation in Phil's work this year at all.



so I have to respectfully disagree with you there

4.5min 3.5k... they better work together or they'll get caught.

Honestly, I didn't see it like that. Phil and Paul disagree on lots of stuff, and they get it wrong alot, too. I mean over the years its always like that.

They have to comentate on what they see on the race video, and they miss riders names all the time, or get confused as to what group they are seeing. I didn't really see any degradation in Phil's work this year at all.



so I have to respectfully disagree with you there

Neither do I, but I never thought any of them were very good.

... but I never thought any of them were very good.

Now, I'm sorry, but no, I won't stand for any of that :D

Phil and Paul are quite possibly the best tandem in ALL of sports broadcasting. How this boards members continues to nit pick them is beyond me.

They make 4-6 hours of broadcasting fun and informative...and let me tell you thant aint easy. I really cant figure this board out. We want biking and bike racing to be accepted in mass but adopt a snooty know it all attitude as soon as we hear a minor slip up by 2 of its front line promoters of the sport. It just makes no sense.

If you dont like the call of Paul and Phil just turn the volume down on your TV and see how well you follow the race. With all your acute skills im sure you will know exactly who is who and what is going on at all times every where on the road.

Check out the Podium Cafe analysis of the Versus coverage (http://www.podiumcafe.com/2008/7/19/574795/ah-versus-a-review).

There is an interesting comparison to Phil and Paul to John Madden. And if you have watched John Madden call a football game over the last 30 years or so, you'll get the spirit of the comparison.

Phil and Paul are quite possibly the best tandem in ALL of sports broadcasting
You don't watch a lot of sports, do you?

You don't watch a lot of sports, do you?


I watch a TON of sports. I spent 2 years as a sports broadcaster with CBS.

I watch a TON of sports. I spent 2 years as a sports broadcaster with CBS.

So you think the current iteration of Paul and Phil spouting the same platitudes over and over, while butchering names and/or not getting names right is quite possibly the best tandem in all of sports broadcasting?

I would say they have a decent chemistry as a tandem, but it's gotten to the point where they don't bring a lot of new information to the booth. The epitome of current sports broadcasting? I can't get behind that opinion.

Ah their great fun, Phil trying to figure out how the farmers got the sheep to stand in the outline of France was priceless. Where can you get commenting like that?

So you think the current iteration of Paul and Phil spouting the same platitudes over and over, while butchering names and/or not getting names right is quite possibly the best tandem in all of sports broadcasting?

I would say they have a decent chemistry as a tandem, but it's gotten to the point where they don't bring a lot of new information to the booth. The epitome of current sports broadcasting? I can't get behind that opinion.

Start with telling me a sport that is harder to call than a bike race. Its 4-6 HOURS. It has riders who are all of very similar height, weight all attempting to look as uniform as possible. Now add in that you cant see the race with your own eyes, only with what the TV feed shows you. Add in one of the most multinational sports on the planet for names. Now take all that and ask ANY broadcaster on the planet to fill those 4-6 hours without making a single mistake. Now ask them to make it entertaining. Finally ask them to make it informative. Your list is gonna be REAL REAL REAL short on people who can fill that bill.

Preface I love Phil Ligget. He's been great, and I'm sure he's forgotten more about profesional cycling than I'll ever know.

However, I think he's finally lost it. For several years his calls have been slipping, and he gets more and more wrong.
Yesterday on L'Alpe de huez, he just did not get what was going on, even after Paul repeatedly tried to explain it to him.

Ligget kept saying Frnak Schleck didn't have it, and his attaacks which should be sticking weren't.

Ligget totally missed that Frank Schleck and Andy Schleck were trying to disrupt Evans, not trying to chase down their teammate Sastre.

It was embarassing for Phil, when he kept making inane comments even with Paul trying to explain it to him.

I'm afraid Ligget's best days are behind him.

john madden comes to mind here. both of these guys are still the best at what they do :eek:.

ed rader

Your list is gonna be REAL REAL REAL short on people who can fill that bill.

All it takes is a little perspective. :)

Az

So you think the current iteration of Paul and Phil spouting the same platitudes over and over, while butchering names and/or not getting names right is quite possibly the best tandem in all of sports broadcasting?

I would say they have a decent chemistry as a tandem, but it's gotten to the point where they don't bring a lot of new information to the booth. The epitome of current sports broadcasting? I can't get behind that opinion.

by any chance are you under the age of 30?

I'm not putting you down, I'm just curious. Well, actually, I'm not putting you down YET. I'll at least be honest about that, but I think the perception of Phil and Paul may be a demographic thing.

Gotta agree - I like Phil - but he's not as sharp as he was a few years ago. And I'm not talking about the missed names, who could get that right even half the time?

by any chance are you under the age of 30?

I'm not putting you down, I'm just curious. Well, actually, I'm not putting you down YET. I'll at least be honest about that, but I think the perception of Phil and Paul may be a demographic thing.

No. I'm not under 30.

Look, I have always loved listening to Phil's calls of races. He's the voice I hear in my head when I'm suffering up a climb (Oh, CyLowe has cracked!). But even as I recognize him as the voice of professional cycling (to most US viewers), I can also recognize that the quality of his calls has diminished. Phil gets a pass, though, as he has earned it. See the Podium Cafe post I linked above.

I hope you are not going to put me down because I don't agree with the opinion above that Paul/Phil are the best tandem in all of sport. Perhaps I was a bit snide when I insinuated SunSwingsLow doesn't watch much sports. That was not called for on my part. He's got his opinion, to which he is rightly entitled.

I like both Phil and Paul, and I like bike racing even more. I'm willing to put up with the odd butchering of names, the occasional mistakes of who is chasing or who is off the back, and the worn out cliches and repetitious banter. All I know is, no one would want to listen to me talk for 5 hours. There'd be calls to the network saying "Get that clueless broad off the air!" :lol:

It's bike racing as we know it, and I'll take it, warts and all.

As I was watching yesterday's stage I did find myself wondering what the British public gets to listen to as far as commentary.

I would almost like to trade off, with some other English speaking nations to hear a real comparison. I like the commentary of the live coverage a lot more than I like the "Enhanced" coverage in the evening, although I have to admit it is a lot to ask to fill the air waves for 5 hours with entertaining and informative information.

I find it incredible that they can make "The 4 man break-away has a 4 minute lead on the peleton, just like they have for the last hour" into something worth watching by comenting on what sort of tour rider "X" has had, and how rider "Z" is getting water for the team, and where ridwe "W" is riding in the peleton, and flashing back to previous races, and commenting on what the riders may be considering... and on the scenery.

No. I'm not under 30.

Look, I have always loved listening to Phil's calls of races. He's the voice I hear in my head when I'm suffering up a climb (Oh, CyLowe has cracked!). But even as I recognize him as the voice of professional cycling (to most US viewers), I can also recognize that the quality of his calls has diminished. Phil gets a pass, though, as he has earned it. See the Podium Cafe post I linked above.

I hope you are not going to put me down because I don't agree with the opinion above that Paul/Phil are the best tandem in all of sport. Perhaps I was a bit snide when I insinuated SunSwingsLow doesn't watch much sports. That was not called for on my part. He's got his opinion, to which he is rightly entitled.

no, no, I was kidding with that. I was actually starting to wonder if it was young people who were getting tired of Phil. you know, not "in your face" enough or something.

I seem to be picking up on a Howard Cosell Monday Night Football vibe.

I realize I'm being an antagonist to the Phil/Paul admiration here, but 4-6 hours of commentary?

C'mon now. Have you been WATCHING Versus broadcasts?

It would be interesting to see how much time is actually spent watching the race with regard to:

The pre-race with Roll and Hummer
They pick up the race many miles into a stage
The canned fluff pieces
The 138 Saab commercials
The 429 Tapout promos
The Garmin/Chipotle stylized interviews leading into the Saab/Tapout commercials
The Saab Fly-To-The Finish Sweepstakes mentions
The mentions of "Big George Hincapie"
Etc.


Yes, calling a race is challenging given the circumstances, but they don't have anywhere near 4 hours of time to fill with actually calling/commenting on a live race.

... I did find myself wondering what the British public gets to listen to as far as commentary.



we make them listen to Craig Hummer all day.

hey, who wears the pants in this North Atlantic alliance anyway?

I realize I'm being an antagonist to the Phil/Paul admiration here, but 4-6 hours of commentary?

C'mon now. Have you been WATCHING Versus broadcasts?

It would be interesting to see how much time is actually spent watching the race with regard to:

The pre-race with Roll and Hummer
They pick up the race many miles into a stage
The canned fluff pieces
The 138 Saab commercials
The 429 Tapout promos
The Garmin/Chipotle stylized interviews leading into the Saab/Tapout commercials
The Saab Fly-To-The Finish Sweepstakes mentions
The mentions of "Big George Hincapie"
Etc.


Yes, calling a race is challenging given the circumstances, but they don't have anywhere near 4 hours of time to fill with actually calling/commenting on a live race.

now hold on a second....

I thought I was watching a Tap Out marathon with bike race commercials thrown in!

Yes, calling a race is challenging given the circumstances, but they don't have anywhere near 4 hours of time to fill with actually calling/commenting on a live race.

OK, I'll give you back 2 hours. Still, no one would want to listen to me for 15 minutes so I'm ahead of the game. :D

They do make mistakes sometimes, but I think generally they do a really great job. It's so hard to figure out what's going on during field sprints. I did think he was wrong yesterday when he said that Frank Schleck was having a bad day. His comments are always so great, though...the suitcase of courage, the Harry Potter cloak.

now hold on a second....

I thought I was watching a Tap Out marathon with bike race commercials thrown in!

Personally, I just strip down to my skivvies and roll out the door at 50 mph. The wife and kids get quite freaked out when all the sudden no one is driving the car.

As much as I hate to say it, it might deserve to be said that bike races like the Giro and the Tour are profound achievements by the cyclists, but for much of the race are also pretty profoundly uneventful.

"And the field is staying together on a flat 100 mile stage where there will be exactly 10 to 15 seconds of excitement at the end involving riders who don't matter at all to the overall classification or any of the leaders' jerseys."

More the idiot that I am, I still watch. I don't watch every second of the five hour telecast, but I do watch a bit of most days, even if I sometimes zip through big parts of it with Tivo.

As I was watching yesterday's stage I did find myself wondering what the British public gets to listen to as far as commentary.

I would almost like to trade off, with some other English speaking nations to hear a real comparison.

I've watched the TDF in Europe on Eurosport a couple of different years. I think the commentary is a bit deeper in analysis, but it's not orders of magnitude different.

I think part of the reason the analysis is a little deeper is the sophistication of the audience they're playing to.

It's difficult to understand sometimes though with Sean Kelly speaking a foreign language.


Watching on French TV is actually a hoot. You pick up on the translation of the graphics pretty quickly, and I can make out a very little bit of what the announcers are saying. But it basically goes: " yabber, yabber, yabber, CHRSITOPHE MOREAUX, CHRISTOPHE MOREAUX, yabber, yaber, yabber,CHRSITOPHE MOREAUX, CHRISTOPHE MOREAUX, yabber, yabber, yabber, CHRSITOPHE MOREAUX, CHRISTOPHE MOREAUX, ..."

When Phil and Paul are at home, which is during one of the Spring Classics or a vicious mountain stage of the Tour or the last 30 seconds of a dramatic sprint finish, they're at their best. And when they're at their best there's simply no one else I'd rather hear call a bike race.

Superslomo - I think you nailed it. Not a lot happens in a bike race. Well, stuff happens, but it happens quickly. It's like watching a baseball game being played out at high speeds over a hundred and fifty or so miles. Often it's like watching a pitchers' duel. And the only person who likes a pitchers' duel is George Will, and he's an idiot.

At first I thought I missesd Al Trautwig, but I don't. Craig Hummer asks good questions and obviously wants to be there. I wish he wasn't such a... smarmy git, but he's not bad as smarmy gits go. And he has mastered the segue, so to speak, as it were.

And speaking of segues, the weirdest thing was having Johan Bruyneel doing commentary. At first I thought it was going to be like having George Stephanopoulos as a pundit - you know he knows how it all works and he has all the dirt on everyone, but he won't give it up because he's too much of an insider to ever tell you anything really interesting. But then JB got into tactics and showed the obvious depth of understanding and love he has for the sport. Cool.

But after a while - maybe it was the next day - he started telling us what we already know, what everyone who has watched more than two stages of a Grand Tour knows. And he started sounding exactly like Hummer and Bobke. There's something about sitting in the Versus booth that turns your brain to Jell-O. Or maybe there's just a point when you run out of interesting new things to say about a bike race.

the weirdest thing was having Johan Bruyneel doing commentary.

yea, I was wondering how much ASO was liking that. But I have to give the man his due, he didn't take the opportunity to talk politics or talk Astana, and (here's the bit I have to respect) Johan didn't plug his new book once (at least not that I noticed, but after 17 stages I get into a sort of fog from tuning out all those Tap Out promotions)

yea, I was wondering how much ASO was liking that. But I have to give the man his due, he didn't take the opportunity to talk politics or talk Astana, and (here's the bit I have to respect) Johan didn't plug his new book once (at least not that I noticed, but after 17 stages I get into a sort of fog from tuning out all those Tap Out promotions)
I forgot about his book. Craig pimped it for him with the back-handed compliment, "It's a great book, I read it in one night."

Does anybody look more nervous and ill at easy on camera than Bruyneel ?

Preface I love Phil Ligget. He's been great, and I'm sure he's forgotten more about profesional cycling than I'll ever know.

However, I think he's finally lost it. For several years his calls have been slipping, and he gets more and more wrong.

Yesterday on L'Alpe de huez, he just did not get what was going on, even after Paul repeatedly tried to explain it to him.

Ligget kept saying Frnak Schleck didn't have it, and his attaacks which should be sticking weren't.

Ligget totally missed that Frank Schleck and Andy Schleck were trying to disrupt Evans, not trying to chase down their teammate Sastre.

It was embarassing for Phil, when he kept making inane comments even with Paul trying to explain it to him.

I'm afraid Ligget's best days are behind him.


Completely agree, unfortunately.

So what's the next move? Paul moves up a spot, and Bobke rides shotgun?

Just as long as it isn't Andreu. Ugh.

Completely agree, unfortunately.

So what's the next move? Paul moves up a spot, and Bobke rides shotgun?

Just as long as it isn't Andreu. Ugh.

Had to laugh when Adrieu(sp?) said everyone would wait to attack on Alpe d'Huez until they got near the top. I guess he meant to say everyone who doesn't mind Cadel beating them in the ITT and passing them in the GC standings.

As I was watching yesterday's stage I did find myself wondering what the British public gets to listen to as far as commentary.

I would almost like to trade off, with some other English speaking nations to hear a real comparison.

Eurosport - it's very good. They give Versus a run for their money. I like to listen to both. You can't match the excitement of Phil and Paul at the finale of the races, though - they really know how to get you worked up.

I'm getting concerned about those two, also. It seems like Paul Sherwin adds 10 kph to the descending speeds every year. It was one of the earlier stages in the Pyrenes that he announced that they would be descending at 110 kph. I just about spewed water out of my mouth. Even my wife laughed and she's not ridden a bike for more than 2 miles. They showed the speed on the descent a few moments later at a respectable 64 kph and he said 100 k a few minutes later. Unbelievable.

Then there's the famous, "If you touch you're brakes (going around this hairpen turn) you'll lose 15-25 places". Milliseconds later there's a close-up of the riders going around the turn with both brake levers about half way down. No retraction.

It was one of the earlier stages in the Pyrenes that he announced that they would be descending at 110 kph. I just about spewed water out of my mouth. Even my wife laughed and she's not ridden a bike for more than 2 miles. They showed the speed on the descent a few moments later at a respectable 64 kph and he said 100 k a few minutes later. Unbelievable.

100 km/h is also respectable, and certainly possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kZSzB4kEE8

100 km/h is also respectable, and certainly possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kZSzB4kEE8

Oh, no doubt they can do it on a really straight descent, but this was a very technical descent and the riders were clearly still pedalling, so the speed was no more than 70k at the time. Thanks for the video clip, that was an incredibly fast descent.

There's a certain aesthetic to the Tour that is unmatched by any other sport. The colors of the team jerseys, the bikes, the flow of the peloton, the landscapes, the insane fans, and so on. For me, Phil Ligget is the voice of that aesthetic, and without him it wouldn't be the same.

I could care less about his mistakes.

And speaking of segues, the weirdest thing was having Johan Bruyneel doing commentary. At first I thought it was going to be like having George Stephanopoulos as a pundit - you know he knows how it all works and he has all the dirt on everyone, but he won't give it up because he's too much of an insider to ever tell you anything really interesting. But then JB got into tactics and showed the obvious depth of understanding and love he has for the sport. Cool.


We have an ex-pro and current elite coach who does announcing for a lot of our local track races. He does an amazing job. One time early on after he had done it for a few races I thanked him for it and he said something like "When I'm watching a bike race I'm doing it anyway, you're just adding the microphone". If you stand near him during a world cup race he just stands there and calls the race-- you can learn a ton.

Yes, calling a race is challenging given the circumstances, but they don't have anywhere near 4 hours of time to fill with actually calling/commenting on a live race.

They're probably calling the race for british audiences at the same time, and alternating which network they're plugging for (I've seen them do that before). Most likely they just announce pretty much non-stop and the directors/editors take care of the rest. I much prefer the morning coverage that's pretty much just them calling it over the evening coverage where they've added the americans calling it, but still revert to phil and paul's live commentary for the exciting parts.

Well said Malthus, and I completely agree. I also don't mind the occasional stumble, and absolutely love listening to P & P each and every year.


There's a certain aesthetic to the Tour that is unmatched by any other sport. The colors of the team jerseys, the bikes, the flow of the peloton, the landscapes, the insane fans, and so on. For me, Phil Ligget is the voice of that aesthetic, and without him it wouldn't be the same.

I could care less about his mistakes.

Few know that Phil's eyesight is horrible and he needs to place the monitors six inches from his face. I'm frankly amazed that they are able to pick out and recognize all the riders they do. And as someone said, he's forgotten more about bike racing than any of us will ever know.

There's a certain aesthetic to the Tour that is unmatched by any other sport. The colors of the team jerseys, the bikes, the flow of the peloton, the landscapes, the insane fans, and so on. For me, Phil Ligget is the voice of that aesthetic, and without him it wouldn't be the same.

I could care less about his mistakes.


Exactly! In the end it's the voice that makes you wish you could see it live more than anything in the world. I am dreading the day when Phil can't do it anymore.

Ligget kept saying Frnak Schleck didn't have it, and his attaacks which should be sticking weren't.

Ligget totally missed that Frank Schleck and Andy Schleck were trying to disrupt Evans, not trying to chase down their teammate Sastre.

I think those two announcers were disagreeing on strategy... and that's fine.....

I don't know if Ligget was wrong or not but the Schleck brothers protecting Sastre just gave the tour to Evans in my opinion. I think Ligget thought the Schleck's would blow away Cadel Evans & pretty much give the yellow and tour to Frank Schleck.... Or Frank would team up with Sastre and blow away Evans by even more time then what did happen.

Unless Evans shows up sick or crashes at the TT, he should be wearing yellow in Paris.

There's a certain aesthetic to the Tour that is unmatched by any other sport. The colors of the team jerseys, the bikes, the flow of the peloton, the landscapes, the insane fans, and so on. For me, Phil Ligget is the voice of that aesthetic, and without him it wouldn't be the same.

I could care less about his mistakes.

I couldn't agree more. I frankly can't imagine cycling without Phil or Paul. My goodness---they get my heart pounding out of my chest calling a bike race.

Start with telling me a sport that is harder to call than a bike race. Its 4-6 HOURS. It has riders who are all of very similar height, weight all attempting to look as uniform as possible. Now add in that you cant see the race with your own eyes, only with what the TV feed shows you. Add in one of the most multinational sports on the planet for names. Now take all that and ask ANY broadcaster on the planet to fill those 4-6 hours without making a single mistake. Now ask them to make it entertaining. Finally ask them to make it informative. Your list is gonna be REAL REAL REAL short on people who can fill that bill.

I agree with you that their job is hard, however, I think their commentary can be far less shallow than what it is, with fewer repetitions of worn out expressions. I had the chance this year to watch the Giro on Eurosport the level of discussion there was much superior to anything Phil and Paul produce, and it's not like Sean Kelly and his partner are from a very different neighborhood to those two.

From my limited watching of sports on TV, the best commentating duo in sports are John McEnroe and Mary Carillo.

Ligget is God.

Sean Kelly is a soft talker and with his Irish accent he can be very hard to understand.
No one can call a bunch sprint like Phil, he gets your heart pumping, even if his call was for wrong team member. Last year he missed the Gert Stegamens win and this year he gave one to Ciolek.

BTW. The live coverage for the Alpe D'Huez stage was well over five and one half hours long. They are not gods but good luck finding any one better. (English speaking)

I have been going to and watching races on TV since 1985 and it will be a sad day when Phil calls it's quits.

When Phil and Paul are at home, which is during one of the Spring Classics or a vicious mountain stage of the Tour or the last 30 seconds of a dramatic sprint finish, they're at their best. And when they're at their best there's simply no one else I'd rather hear call a bike race.

Nailed it. This thread is over.

Few know that Phil's eyesight is horrible and he needs to place the monitors six inches from his face.

Then he should stop sitting on his wallet and go and buy some glasses.

I'm frankly amazed that they are able to pick out and recognize all the riders they do.

Based on recent performances I'm amazed when he correctly picks out and names a rider full stop.

And as someone said, he's forgotten more about bike racing than any of us will ever know.

Could be senility?