OK, so the idea of building a commuter/fun bike with an electric assist seemed like a great idea until I started reading up on it... it seems as though most of the simple plug and play systems(bionx, crystalyte, etc.) are more for non-cyclists with top speeds of 20mph or they are basically just electric motorcycles that you can pedal if needed... what I want is something that lets me ride it like my own bike, but allows me to ride at a pace I would do while racing with a more moderate input level to ride to work, etc... basically something that would give me an assist through my own gearing setup for speeds of 20-35mph.

So for a guy like me; a Cat 2 racer who can sustain 400watts for 20 minutes on gatorade with my own legs and ride all day long at 300 watts, is there anything out there (i.e. pedal assist up to 20mph is not needed since I ride that fast or faster already)? I would like something that I could add to a Cyclocross bike, or maybe a 29er mtn bike, but would be capable of giving assist of 200 watts or so allowing me to ride speeds that are threshold level outputs(25-35mph) with an endurance level input.

Is this something that just doesn't exist? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Maybe the Cyclone motor? There are some threads on Endless Sphere about them. The motor is about 7 lbs but you have to change the cranks to some really heavy chunks of metal.
You might have a hard time finding what you are looking for because most of this electric stuff is meant for cheap bikes and the better stuff for recumbents. Also the laws in most places say 20mph for a top speed for electric assist and all the weight you have to carry for electric doesn't usually sit well with bicyclists that are used to caring about weight.

I would suggest something which would have total freewheeling, that falls to internally gear reduced hub motors like eZee, and frame mounted motors. These motors will have no additional rolling resistance, and will keep your bicycle most natural.

A Cyclone would work with your bicycle's gearing, but it requires the use of a tailor-made crank which only has one ring, and you might not enjoy that. I would suggest having a look at eLation, which allows the use of a triple crank.

Also,
many various hub motors could simply be adapted to take higher current and provide the speed you need as a result, while providing the ability to retain your own drive train. Talking to someone at ebikes.ca about the eZee kit doing this could be good, its a light motor which has no rolling resistance over a regular wheel.

If you have the money, you can buy the Bionx PL500HS like I did (look for my thread in this forum). Of course, you'll have to find someone in CA to ship it to you because it's only sold to CA residents. If you can maintain 23 on the flats with a regular bike, this kit's level 2 assist can take you to 27 or so with the same effort (it goes up to level 4).

My wilderness BD36 will do 25-28mph, and I can ride the bike without electric help.

the cyclone kit is good for what you want. you don't need multiple chainrings with a cyclone-type bike. The fact that the motor has any multispeed type gearing at all really helps, and you won't need the low-gears for pedaling* because the powered bike is so much better uphill than any unpowered bike.

only caveat is that the electronics in the cyclone don't seem to be the most reliable thing ever, and the freewheel (if you want the option of running the motor EVER without pedaling) is also unreliable.

*except that if your batteries run out of juice, THEN it's like riding a bike with some heavy panniers (or riding a much heavier bike) and you will wish for low gears.

For a semi/serious cycler (like me), I would settle for nothing less than a Crystalyte 5303 running at least 48v. This will push you well past 30mph without even pedalling. If you can somehow manage a road bike setup with a 53/55-11 top gear, then you could push yourself to 40mph for long periods of time (like 30+ miles).

To do this however, you would need a front hub motor and not a rear, because the rear requires a freewheel, which only 13t is the highest going now. Front hub 5303 motor would allow for use on virtually any bike.

OK, thanks for the feedback so far... it looks like I need to do some more research into how electric motors work, and how to manipulate what is already out there to get what I want...and cerewa you hit the nail on the head about gearing (I could make a single speed 53x14 work)... I was actually thinking I need the exact opposite of what is available... I don't need (or want) any assist below 20mph... more like something that kicks in at a progressive rate from 20mph-35mph or so... for a guy my size 600watts (to the wheels) is enough to maintain 35mph on flat road in an aero tuck and I can provide half that no problem.

The cyclone kit looks really bulky and heavy, but that may give me what I want... the eZee kit may have some promise, but I imagine it will be too difficult to change the planetary gearing to make it effective for what I want. I found some limited info on something Panasonic has that seems like exactly what I want, but can't get a good source.

I am really surprised at how these electric bikes are marketed... I mean forget about my "serious cyclist" verbiage in the title... how about just any cyclist, I mean the average joe can ride 18mph all day long... yet these bikes are setup so that this is close to top end... and if they go faster then they are for not pedaling...I watched the youtube stuff and it is just a bunch of 100lb crappy mtn bikes that the owners ride as mopeds...:wtf: It is like the lazy SUV culture has somehow transmuted into electric bikes? Am I wrong? I mean I don't understand why not just get a moped if that is what you want, it seems odd that wanting a bike you pedal, at normal+ cycling speeds with a small assist, doesn't exist.

For a semi/serious cycler (like me), I would settle for nothing less than a Crystalyte 5303 running at least 48v. This will push you well past 30mph without even pedalling. If you can somehow manage a road bike setup with a 53/55-11 top gear, then you could push yourself to 40mph for long periods of time (like 30+ miles).

To do this however, you would need a front hub motor and not a rear, because the rear requires a freewheel, which only 13t is the highest going now. Front hub 5303 motor would allow for use on virtually any bike.

I don't know... I need to look into the hub motors more, but it seems like it isn't as efficient. A 53-13 is good to about 35mph without crazy cadence and that is all I need. But front hub may not work well as I would prefer to do this on a road bike... maybe a Surly Pacer or something like that with steel fork could work... really I would prefer something like the Yamaha Racer-01 from 2001... I would commute on that thing, mess with guys on the local hammerfests, then go to the local TT series on that baby... you think 10mile TT at 20min is fast?... ha ha how about 16 minutes:D

I saw all those YouTubers as well.

I am a roadie, and don't want a Wally-World special for my ebike. I want something lighter I can reliably depend on, so I can commute 23mi to work. That's why I decided to rebuild a Vintage Peugot UO8 road bike with a heavy gauge steel frame for my project. I'm going to use some 8s FB shifters, a 52-42-30t crank, and a 13-28t freewheel with a 5303 48v rear hub motor. It'll weigh in around 24lb before I start adding gear. Much better than a 40lb Wally-World Behemoth.

If you're running a triple like I will, hill climbing is a little easier with a 80lb bike. With a 52-13 gear @90rpm cadence, you're running 360rpm 700c wheel. Which computes to about 28.6mph.

So... assuming your wheel dia. is ~2130mm.....

90rpm= 28.6mph.

100rpm= 31.8mph

110rpm= 35mph

120rpm= 38.2mph

This is where a double crank would be nice. Imagine a 55-11t gear.

90rpm= 35.7mph

100rpm= 39.8mph

110rpm= 43.7mph

120rpm= 47.7mph!!!!! :D

This is what I am going to try over the next couple of months, a cyclone (Electoportal, same motor) but instead of using their system which limits the bike to one chainring, I am going to try to use an IPS (independent pedaling system) crank designed for a tandem stoker. This will allow a triple crankset but still allow the pedals to 'freewheel' independent of the motor. The motor will drive the triple chainring set directly and the normal bike drivetrain will remain the same. You could use a small motor like the 350 watt if you were only going to use it to maintain speed.
The other method I have in mind is to use an internal hub and attach a gear to it that would accept a chain driven from a motor mounted like the old Currie but on the chaindrive side of the bike. This would allow the motor to drive through the gears for power on hills or speed on the topside.

Bionx is considerably lighter than Crystalyte. And the Cyclone system is even lighter. So it just comes down to how important that is to you.

I prefer hub systems so my bike won't sound like a high pitch machine wherever I go.

Regarding the freewheel, Shimano makes a 11-28t 8sp freewheel which I use, but it's hard to find.

This is the link to my review of the Bionx PL500HS (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=438465).

I mean I don't understand why not just get a moped if that is what you want, it seems odd that wanting a bike you pedal, at normal+ cycling speeds with a small assist, doesn't exist.

Well, they're sold for compliance in legal limits - which in most places is 32-35kph. About 20-22 mph. Most of these kits will exceed that with little effort, with a little adjustment. They don't sell kits like this, because they're illegal to use in many areas.

Bionx is considerably lighter than Crystalyte. And the Cyclone system is even lighter. So it just comes down to how important that is to you.

I prefer hub systems so my bike won't sound like a high pitch machine wherever I go.

Regarding the freewheel, Shimano makes a 11-28t 8sp freewheel which I use, but it's hard to find.

This is the link to my review of the Bionx PL500HS (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=438465).

Weight matters of course, but only in the context of power to weight...but then I don't want a motorcycle either... I read your review of the Bionx and it looks to be closest to what I would like, but I don't need any more assist than 350 watts (that is more than enough). The problem is that the way the motor is geared... if I understand the way the controller works, more speed is achieved through more voltage based on how the motor is setup... so effectively while the pedal assist controller of the Bionx is exactly what I want... unless I softpedal everywhere I will max out the motor anyway.

What does the motor do if you are descending or sprinting at 40mph? Does it effectively become a brake while still drawing power?

Being able to get 100 watts assist at 25 mph and up to 350 watts assist at 32mph or so would be perfect for commuting, but would be a buzzkill on hard efforts if you end up overdriving the motor and it holds you back. I guess you only need to put in 1000watt+ efforts up hills and any time you are descending or on flats conserve your own energy. The problem is that I am basing my understanding of wattage requirements on my own use of power meters (measuring MY wattage!;)) while training so I know what the ACTUAL power demands are for riding at specific speeds and conditions, but the ebike kits and ratings are not setup the same way so I have a hard time fully understanding how it will function on the bike.

Can you modify the Bionx system at all to change its effective speed range (other than just cranking up the voltage)... or can you use the pedal assist controller with another motor wound for higher speeds (lower torque)?

So I just saw the assist levels of the Bionx, and to illustrate my concerns consider the following:

So the assist has 4 levels of 25%, 50%, 100%, and 200%

So 50% is the level I would probably be using the most in practice, so lets say I am cruising along at 300watt output (at the cranks), this means the motor should be contributing about 150watts, and on flat ground with average atmospheric conditions this (450watts) is about 26-28mph... if I ramp it up to a harder 400watt pace, now I should be putting out 600 watts to the wheel which is good for 32+mph, and that is only on level 2! But I see reviews where people are putting it on level 3 just to ride 25mph so this is making me think something in the motor itself is a limiting factor and I will never get the assist the controller is trying to give unless I softpedal (under 200 watts)... is this correct?

And what about hard efforts? You would be surprised at how high power spikes can be for short durations (power climb, etc.)... the average cyclist can put out 1000 watts for brief periods, and a bigger guy like myself can put out 750 watts for a minute, so what does the Bionx do under these circumstances? If at slower speeds like you would see for a climb for acceleration it probably will match to the peak of the motor right? But what about if you are going 30 mph already and you sprint at 1400watts, will it still contribute peak power or is it outside its operating range?

Hmm, are you sure you're looking for a commuter? I'm few level below you but know of couple of guys in cat 2 level - who commute - but don't sprint down the road like they are on a race.

One of the acquaintance (cat 2 racer) commute 18 miles each way and said he doesn't go that fast and certainly will not sprint, or he'll be soaking wet by time he gets to work or home. He actually thought about Ebike but decided against it since he's a weight weenie.

I could also do a club ride all weekend long - but when commuting, I'm constantly slowing down for a traffic, getting off the bike to walk the cross walk, get coffee (yes you do drink ice/coffee on a bike when commuting), etc.

If you just want something that will keep up with what you can do on a race/training day or don't mind getting terribly sweaty - get a x5 motor with 72v+ battery. It could do 35+ MPH and you could use it in assist or full power mode at that speed.

By the way, you don't use the electric power all the time (I don't) - you use it occasionally to either keep the speed up or help you on a climb. Based on CA, I'm averaging ~1ah for my 7 mile commute, which means I'm pedaling most of the time.

Here's a more important question.

400 watts and you're only a cat2? Uh...

You really need to try out a hub motor and an ebike with a pedal sensor. I don't care for either because I live in a very hilly town. I have the Charger bike but the sensor I prefer is the one in my head because it can actually tell when to give me power and when not to. There is resistance to pedaling when you are not powering a hub motor unless it is one of the internally geared ones, hubs are also a bit heavier and less efficient than an inline motor. However, they are easy to install and the best part is they are very quiet. Most ebikes use hub motors so there is a lot of support info out there. When it comes to the electric part of ebikes, check out Endless Sphere.

Hmm, are you sure you're looking for a commuter? I'm few level below you but know of couple of guys in cat 2 level - who commute - but don't sprint down the road like they are on a race.

No no sure:D... some of those questions were more to understand how it functions at those speeds inputs, but in all reality it may be something to go out and ride at a faster pace than normal for recreation too just to change things up.

Here's a more important question.

400 watts and you're only a cat2? Uh...
400 watts is 20MP... and yeah, cat 2 packfill... I am 6'4" 195lbs though so nothing to write home about power to weight... and I have a crappy sprint, but with a strong 1MP I am a good leadout man... if only I was there in the end to lead someone out:o

At any rate I am burned out racing as it is just too hard and takes to much time to train to that level... well maybe not if it were actual cat 2 racing, but everything is always P/1/2 so you go from being very competitive in the 3's to getting your ass handed to you by Div 3 pros. Probably OK if you are a 20 year old college student, but not very motivating when you are a 32 year old with a demanding job (come on masters 35+ :thumb:)...probably entertaining this idea due to burnout anyway....

When it comes to the electric part of ebikes, check out Endless Sphere.

I just found that site... a lot of good info, but a lot to digest... clearly I am going to have to research this a lot more.

So I just saw the assist levels of the Bionx, and to illustrate my concerns consider the following:

So the assist has 4 levels of 25%, 50%, 100%, and 200%

So 50% is the level I would probably be using the most in practice, so lets say I am cruising along at 300watt output (at the cranks), this means the motor should be contributing about 150watts, and on flat ground with average atmospheric conditions this (450watts) is about 26-28mph... if I ramp it up to a harder 400watt pace, now I should be putting out 600 watts to the wheel which is good for 32+mph, and that is only on level 2! But I see reviews where people are putting it on level 3 just to ride 25mph so this is making me think something in the motor itself is a limiting factor and I will never get the assist the controller is trying to give unless I softpedal (under 200 watts)... is this correct?

And what about hard efforts? You would be surprised at how high power spikes can be for short durations (power climb, etc.)... the average cyclist can put out 1000 watts for brief periods, and a bigger guy like myself can put out 750 watts for a minute, so what does the Bionx do under these circumstances? If at slower speeds like you would see for a climb for acceleration it probably will match to the peak of the motor right? But what about if you are going 30 mph already and you sprint at 1400watts, will it still contribute peak power or is it outside its operating range?


The PL500HS uses 33%, 75%, 150%, and 300% for assist levels (just like the PL350). So if you're outputting 400W, then you'll get 300W more at assist 2. 700W! I don't know how much of the 300W will translate into actual work to move the wheel. Sounds like you only need at most level 2 assist! At level 3, if I push it, I can go 30 on the flats. But I wouldn't have been able to do that with the other Bionx motor because their designed for lower speeds.

The no loads of the other Bionx is at 25mph. The no load test for the PL500HS is about 40-41mph. So the assist will diminish as you approach the no load speed. At 40mph, the PL500HS will only provide enough power to turn the wheel at that rate.