Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - No horizontal dropouts need apply

That's the "adamant" suggestion from my LBS when I showed them the road frame I want to convert into a fixed-gear bike.

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm439/jack650/DSCF0037_0023_023.jpg

The road frame has a short horizontal dropout (http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/mm439/jack650/?action=view&current=DSCF0054_0022_022.jpg) (with hanger). The LBS basically said that they won't want anything to do with a conversion if it doesn't have a track fork end, supposedly for safety reasons.

I suppose I can understand their distaste for exposure to risk. They were afraid that I was going to go so fast and hard on the converted rig that when I brake, my wheel would pop out. I am not planning on going more than 17 to 20 mph on this fixie/townie/commuter converted rig.

Is their concern legitimate? Should I not tempt fate? Thanks.

Jack

No, what they are really saying is that they won't do conversions.

do it yourself

I agree with dutret on this.

are there any other LBS's in town? I recommend you transfer your service to them.

Do it yourself. You'll understand your bike better and be able to maintain it.

This doomsday rumor about horizontal dropouts seems to be gaining traction among folks who don't actually understand conversions all that well. Two recent threads went on ad nauseum about this; the take-home is your dropouts are fine for converting.

Perhaps the shop was trying to make you drop big bucks on a new frame. Perhaps they've bought into the just-so stories. Perhaps they were planning to install drivetrains on both sides of the bike and loosen your axle nuts. In any event, I would find a different shop.

Poppycock. The axle doesn't care which way the opening is, only that the dropout/trackends are secure enough to hold the nuts.

My Trek 660 conversion has short horizontal dropouts. You are limited in the number of tooth jumps if you like flipping your hub or swapping your cog, but other than that there is no issue. Certainly no safety issue.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/CalOso/DSC02430.jpg

their concern is legitimate from a "watch our asses" business perspective. they can't afford the risk of being held liable if something were to happen. and, in all honesty, you can swear up and down that you are going to keep the brake on and not go more than 17-20mph. but you can really just say that and then go do whatever the hell you want, bust your ass, and sue them. that's america. i'm not saying you're a ******bag like that, but you never know who is and who isn't.

that said, you should be fine. just do it yourself. i'm sure they'll still sell you a fixed wheel and single-speed crank bolts. that and about half an hour and you have a conversion.

As long as you use a solid axle with good nuts, you shouldn't pull the wheel out of the dropouts. Redline tensioners are pretty cheap insurance though.

Perhaps the saddle and brake levers terrified them away.

Oh please. They just aren't interested in your business. Our shop has probably done hundreds if not thousands of conversions on road frames with horizontal dropouts without a single lawsuit or fatality.

If you've been riding that bike like that, it's WAY too big for you anyway.

Horizontal dropouts will work fine. The safety issue is complete horse shiat with no basis whatsoever in reality.

And (I'm saying this in the spirit of honesty and kindness, not as a put down) that bar tape and brake lever setup is egregiously jackass. It's just awful and it is a big disservice to an otherwise very nice bike. But you can fix it. With the levers in the correct place you can brake from the drops and the shoulders, and you wil also get an extra hand position on the hoods.

I thought the point of doing a conversion was to do it yourself. If you pay the shop (+ parts) $200-$300 to do your conversion, why not just buy a fixie to begin with?

??

You know, the OP never said that he rides the bike as-is. He only said he wants to convert it. I've bought a number of bikes at swap meets, yard sales, thrift stores and the like that were setup horribly wrong with my only intent to convert them.

Just sayin' is all.

why non-horizontal dropout is "dangerous"? As far as I can tell from sheldonbrown's writeup,
the only potential issue is the lack of tension adjustability on dropouts that don't have some room to move forward/backward a little bit.

Skinnyboy the issue is supposedly that the wheel might slip forward in the dropout. I guess people think that after that happens the wheel could fall off and cause you to fishtail into a gasoline truck causing a huge fieery explosion. The reality is, wheel slippage happens to people with gears when they don't sufficiently tighten their qr and it's a complete non issue. The wheel does not fall out; it rubs the chainstay on the non drive side, the bike slows to a stop and all nearby gasoline trucks remain unexploded. It happened to me, and I thought to myself "that was annoying, I should toghten my qr more from now on". And i did, and it never slipped again.

what the *** are those brake hoods doing all the way down there?

Cool frame. Will make a nice bike.

Forget them.
As long as you are getting a new wheel and your bb is good, it's easy to do yourself with nothing more than a set of Allen wrenches and a chain tool.


(is that a Shimano 600 or 105 group? If so and you want to make a few bucks off of your drive train when you convert, send me a pm)

That's the "adamant" suggestion from my LBS when I showed them the road frame I want to convert into a fixed-gear bike.

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm439/jack650/DSCF0037_0023_023.jpg

The road frame has a short horizontal dropout (http://s318.photobucket.com/albums/mm439/jack650/?action=view&current=DSCF0054_0022_022.jpg) (with hanger). The LBS basically said that they won't want anything to do with a conversion if it doesn't have a track fork end, supposedly for safety reasons.

I suppose I can understand their distaste for exposure to risk. They were afraid that I was going to go so fast and hard on the converted rig that when I brake, my wheel would pop out. I am not planning on going more than 17 to 20 mph on this fixie/townie/commuter converted rig.

Is their concern legitimate? Should I not tempt fate? Thanks.

Jack


I think you should take the advice of your LBS, these are people with experience & if it wasn't such a big deal they wouldn't be worried about potentially being sued for your getting hurt/killed over a conversion that is technically wrong.

It alarms me that so many people will advise you otherwise but due to the responses to a couple of threads that I started I see that most of them are either in denial, misinformed, or just ignorant. Sheldon Brown does a writeup on conversions & suddenly it is OK. Yes, many people ride conversions successfully, but there is always the chance that something can go horribly wrong at the wrong time.

Play it safe, if you want to ride fixed gear, get a frame that is made for fixed gear. There are budget ways to accomplish this & when you look at the overall cost, which may turn out to be slighlty higher than doing a conversion, isn't your life worth at least that?

Think about it. I learned quickly after joining BF that you have to read thru A LOT of BS to find any insight. This place is chock full 'o blind leading the blind.

Wow bris is really trying to flame things up around here. Mander is right - the wheel could slip forward just as easily on a multi-geared bike as a conversion, the tire would rub the frame, and you would slow to a crawl and realize that you need to tighten the nuts more next time. Bris just hates conversions and likes to troll for flame wars.

No, what they are really saying is that they won't do conversions.

ding ding. i've run into this countless times, and it's a shame.

a lot of shops don't see it as worth their while to convert frames. also a lot of them know that if someone walks in with no knowlege of bikes, it's pretty easy to convince them that their bike is unsafe for some reason, and then it's easy to sell them on a new pista or swobo or something. this is dishonest, but it happens a lot.

forward facing dropouts are perfectly safe, but don't go in and argue with them about it. just find another shop who will treat you right or even better learn how to do it yourself, it's not that hard.

I learned quickly after joining BF that you have to read thru A LOT of BS to find any insight. This place is chock full 'o blind leading the blind.

Truer words have never been typed. This forum is loaded with fashionistas who just picked up a bottom-of-the-barrel (ahem) "track" bike and suddenly know far more than seasoned riders and SB. They'll tell you to "play it safe," yet advocate riding brakeless on the street. So yeah, definitely choose your advice carefully.

I think you should take the advice of your LBS, these are people with experience & if it wasn't such a big deal they wouldn't be worried about potentially being sued for your getting hurt/killed over a conversion that is technically wrong.

It alarms me that so many people will advise you otherwise but due to the responses to a couple of threads that I started I see that most of them are either in denial, misinformed, or just ignorant. Sheldon Brown does a writeup on conversions & suddenly it is OK. Yes, many people ride conversions successfully, but there is always the chance that something can go horribly wrong at the wrong time.

Play it safe, if you want to ride fixed gear, get a frame that is made for fixed gear. There are budget ways to accomplish this & when you look at the overall cost, which may turn out to be slighlty higher than doing a conversion, isn't your life worth at least that?

Think about it. I learned quickly after joining BF that you have to read thru A LOT of BS to find any insight. This place is chock full 'o blind leading the blind.

Why exactly is it a problem? Clearly not cause the wheel will pull out. Only the drive side will be pulled forward and the tire will hit the non-drive side chainstay before it's moved very far at all. This happens with either horz drops or trackends. Even if you had the axle right at the end pulling the drive side out is not going to result in catastropic failure. The chainstay will support the axle and you.

You've made it very clear you don't know **** about **** even though you claim you were a messenger for a decade. Have you ever seen or heard of disaster from a wheel pulling out of a conversion? The fact is that we collectively and probably many of us independently have a ****load more experience than any crappy lbs that refuses to do conversions. Horz drops simply aren't a problem. If you think they are you clearly haven't spent much time riding with either them or trackends be it geared ss or fixed. Wheels slip sometimes either way and the result isn't particulairly scary.

I think you should take the advice of your LBS, these are people with experience & if it wasn't such a big deal they wouldn't be worried about potentially being sued for your getting hurt/killed over a conversion that is technically wrong.

It alarms me that so many people will advise you otherwise but due to the responses to a couple of threads that I started I see that most of them are either in denial, misinformed, or just ignorant. Sheldon Brown does a writeup on conversions & suddenly it is OK. Yes, many people ride conversions successfully, but there is always the chance that something can go horribly wrong at the wrong time.

Minuscule as the odds are, life is full of just such chances. It wouldn't be worth living if that weren't the case. When you get on a roller coaster there is always the chance that a goose will hit you in the face and break your nose. I wouldn't let it stop me.


Play it safe, if you want to ride fixed gear, get a frame that is made for fixed gear. There are budget ways to accomplish this & when you look at the overall cost, which may turn out to be slighlty higher than doing a conversion, isn't your life worth at least that?

Think about it. I learned quickly after joining BF that you have to read thru A LOT of BS to find any insight. This place is chock full 'o blind leading the blind.

Amen to that. Personally, I would beware of safety lectures from people who ride brakeless on the street.

When you kids get older, you'll know what I'm talking about. You can twist what I said all you want, misquote me, bash me for my opinions, talk about my bike, etc. but the fact remains that I'm right.

Anyone who comes here to discredit my potentially helping someone on what is clearly a safety issue is not a friend & should be ignored.

Jack, in the end it's your decision, but I seriously think you should give some more thought to this. In the end the simplest answer is usually the best one: Track bikes are made with track ends for a reason, period.

Track bikes are made with track ends for a reason, period.

Yup. For controlled racing in a velodrome.

Yup. For controlled racing in a velodrome.

Tim, for some reason I expected more from you.

When you kids get older, you'll know what I'm talking about. You can twist what I said all you want, misquote me, bash me for my opinions, talk about my bike, etc. but the fact remains that I'm right.

Anyone who comes here to discredit my potentially helping someone on what is clearly a safety issue is not a friend & should be ignored.

Jack, in the end it's your decision, but I seriously think you should give some more thought to this. In the end the simplest answer is usually the best one: Track bikes are made with track ends for a reason, period.

Well, I am old enough to understand what you are saying and still disagree. I am not going to twist anything you say, but ask you to substantiate it. As I see it, you are pushing track ends/track bikes the same way some people push Deep Vs because they are beefier and act like anything else on the street will explode.

Drop outs whether forward facing or track ends will work for any fixed gear as long as there is enough metal for the bolts to bite into. Period. Not enough metal to adjust forward or aft, then look at the ENO hub.

When you kids get older, you'll know what I'm talking about. You can twist what I said all you want, misquote me, bash me for my opinions, talk about my bike, etc. but the fact remains that I'm right.

Anyone who comes here to discredit my potentially helping someone on what is clearly a safety issue is not a friend & should be ignored.

Jack, in the end it's your decision, but I seriously think you should give some more thought to this. In the end the simplest answer is usually the best one: Track bikes are made with track ends for a reason, period.

Track bikes are made with trackends because track ends are the original wheel holding device. Geared bikes changed to dropouts because track ends are a hassle with a derailer but there was not much reason for track bikes too so they didn't. Wheels pull forward with both systems and nothing bad happens. It's most common on geared bikes with QRs which is why now that derailers have plenty of fudge room vertical dropouts are the norm.

Once again do you have any anecdotes to back this up(not that I trust you after that steaming load of bus BS). You don't know **** you should probably stfu.

Track bikes are made with track ends for a reason, period.

Great. Let's leave experience aside; explain this safety-related reason as others have repeatedly asked.

Keep in mind the wheel jams against the left chainstay before it can pop out, at least for those of us with only one drivetrain.

Edit: I see dutret posted as I was responding. No cheating by reading his response.

Tim, for some reason I expected more from you.

From me? I'm the guy that strenuously objected to your insinuation that people who ride with brakes are either scared or lazy. The fact that you can come in this thread and preach to the OP about the safety of conversions when you're out running brakeless and clinging to a bus for dear life is completely laughable.

I'd be interested in buying the groupo if you want to sell it. Those are some nice parts that should go on an appropriate 80's frame...and I certainly have the right frame for it. But its not pink :(

Send me a private message of what you might want for the parts. Thanks.

Track ends are for ease of wheel removal and maximum adjustability of wheelbase which can be critical to maximizing stroke and speed.

Brakes are for stopping outside of a velodrome. It's fashionable to not run a brake. After 25+ years riding BMX I would go to a skatepark and see some 15 year old kid with his seat on the top tube and no brakes and I'd hear jokes about "old man" etc.

Fact is I could ride circles around these goons. Plus I kept my teeth in my head. The brakeless crew is not limited to Fixies and it's an old (and tired) argument.

Let's move on from brakeless crap and focus on what is going on here. Track ends and the dropouts on this potential conversion are just as safe. I have never seen anyone pull a wheel out from a dropout such as this with a derailleur on and there is no difference.

All this is also easily solved with $2 chain tensioners. Yes, they fit on these bikes.

A $2 part. Surely you "don't do it you'll die" guys are aware of chain tensioners..... right?

All this is also easily solved with $2 chain tensioners. Yes, they fit on these bikes.

A $2 part. Surely you "don't do it you'll die" guys are aware of chain tensioners..... right?

Chain tugs, yes?

Yes.

http://www.sinz-racing.com/images/mini_tensioner.jpg

Track ends are for ease of wheel removal and maximum adjustability of wheelbase which can be critical to maximizing stroke and speed.

nope.

Well that's what I used them for for as long as half this board has been alive.

You can remove a wheel damn fast, switch out gearing and get it back on quickly. Plus I liked running a shorter wheelbase. It came in handy when I had limited gear options and a chain breaker wasn't handy.

"Nope" is pretty weak kung-fu if you ask me. You're not really contributing much and making yourself look well...

I think you should take the advice of your LBS, these are people with experience & if it wasn't such a big deal they wouldn't be worried about potentially being sued for your getting hurt/killed over a conversion that is technically wrong.

It alarms me that so many people will advise you otherwise but due to the responses to a couple of threads that I started I see that most of them are either in denial, misinformed, or just ignorant. Sheldon Brown does a writeup on conversions & suddenly it is OK. Yes, many people ride conversions successfully, but there is always the chance that something can go horribly wrong at the wrong time.

Play it safe, if you want to ride fixed gear, get a frame that is made for fixed gear. There are budget ways to accomplish this & when you look at the overall cost, which may turn out to be slighlty higher than doing a conversion, isn't your life worth at least that?

Think about it. I learned quickly after joining BF that you have to read thru A LOT of BS to find any insight. This place is chock full 'o blind leading the blind.

Haha, you are the exactly the type of person you warn against, troll. Riding brakeless is much more dangerous than riding a properly converted road bike, by the way.

I don't think the OP asked anything about brakes.


To my point, some people drive manual transmissions, some can't. Some can drive both, but prefer one for whatever reason. Does that make either one safer than the other? No. Here is where experience comes in.

Let's say the OP just got his license to drive. He finds a "cool" car which is manual transmission. He just learned to drive, but doesn't know how to drive MT. His parents advised against getting it. He starts a thread asking if he should get it anyway & posts a pic of the car. The forum largely instructs him to disregard his parent's advice & buy the car anyway, telling him he could learn to drive the MT, in fact many of them learned that way.

I simply advised the OP to not only listen to his parents advice, stating their years of experience, but if he is seriously considering getting this car, to at least take some driving classes in MT before making his decision.

The forum responds with nonsense, most of which has nothing to do with the OPs question, misguided reasonings, slander, etc.

To answer the children on this thread, me riding brakeless is my choice. Have I ever instructed someone else to do it? NO. Am I allowed to state what I think of others who ride a brake or a conversion? YES.

Well that's what I used them for for as long as half this board has been alive.

You can remove a wheel damn fast, switch out gearing and get it back on quickly. Plus I liked running a shorter wheelbase. It came in handy when I had limited gear options and a chain breaker wasn't handy.

"Nope" is pretty weak kung-fu if you ask me. You're not really contributing much and making yourself look well...

The main thing that scooting a rear wheel forward a cm is going to accomplish is slightly increase the likely hood of hopping the front. If the true purpose was to allow adjustment of wheelbase than trackies would have a different chain for each gearing and noone does that. You can remove a wheel faster with dropouts because it just drops out, no fiddling with taking the chain off. If you have dropouts as long as trackends(like some of the really old ones) you would have just as much freedom to switch gears. You would slightly cant the frame forward and back though.

Your argument was complete bull**** answering a why something is done question with what a certain end user(you) thinks is cool to do with it. It didn't deserve more than a single syllable response.

I don't think the OP asked anything about brakes.

No but you bash those of us who use them while complaining about the safety of dropouts.

So I guess this non-response means your not even going to try making up some bull**** about a wheel pulling out and are conceding that you're full of **** like always. Whats next? "I didn't mean to offend anyone."

I don't think the OP asked anything about brakes.

Yeah, he asked for advice, partly about safety. And you, a guy without a brake, who prefers to kick it with sweet bros who bomb hills brakeless, incorrectly call people "misinformed and ignorant" when they vouch for the safety of conversions with cogent arguments that correspond to most everybody's experiences. Seems pretty ****ing weak to be offering safety advice when (1) you can't back up the **** you claim about conversions being dangerous (beyond just "track ends are made for fixed gear," which is irrelevant to safety) even though dutret et al. have been asking you to in this and many threads, and (2) you ride a bicycle that is voluntarily unsafe and extol the virtues of doing so in most of your threads.

To answer the children on this thread, me riding brakeless is my choice. Have I ever instructed someone else to do it? NO. Am I allowed to state what I think of others who ride a brake or a conversion? YES.

You are allowed to ride however you want and you are allowed to think whatever you want. That goes without saying. But similarly, we are allowed to think you're not in the best position to offer safety advice because of the way you ride and think, and we are allowed to alert the OP that taking safety advice from you just might not be in his or her best interests.

I don't think the OP asked anything about brakes.


To my point, some people drive manual transmissions, some can't. Some can drive both, but prefer one for whatever reason. Does that make either one safer than the other? No. Here is where experience comes in.

Let's say the OP just got his license to drive. He finds a "cool" car which is manual transmission. He just learned to drive, but doesn't know how to drive MT. His parents advised against getting it. He starts a thread asking if he should get it anyway & posts a pic of the car. The forum largely instructs him to disregard his parent's advice & buy the car anyway, telling him he could learn to drive the MT, in fact many of them learned that way.

I simply advised the OP to not only listen to his parents advice, stating their years of experience, but if he is seriously considering getting this car, to at least take some driving classes in MT before making his decision.

The forum responds with nonsense, most of which has nothing to do with the OPs question, misguided reasonings, slander, etc.

To answer the children on this thread, me riding brakeless is my choice. Have I ever instructed someone else to do it? NO. Am I allowed to state what I think of others who ride a brake or a conversion? YES.
DUDE SHUT UP WITH YOUR HORRIBLE LOGIC.

And please, STOP calling people by their "real" names (Tim, Jack, etc). This is a semi-anonymous message board, not an open town hall forum.

I don't think the OP asked anything about brakes.


To my point, some people drive manual transmissions, some can't. Some can drive both, but prefer one for whatever reason. Does that make either one safer than the other? No. Here is where experience comes in.

Let's say the OP just got his license to drive. He finds a "cool" car which is manual transmission. He just learned to drive, but doesn't know how to drive MT. His parents advised against getting it. He starts a thread asking if he should get it anyway & posts a pic of the car. The forum largely instructs him to disregard his parent's advice & buy the car anyway, telling him he could learn to drive the MT, in fact many of them learned that way.

I simply advised the OP to not only listen to his parents advice, stating their years of experience, but if he is seriously considering getting this car, to at least take some driving classes in MT before making his decision.

The forum responds with nonsense, most of which has nothing to do with the OPs question, misguided reasonings, slander, etc.

To answer the children on this thread, me riding brakeless is my choice. Have I ever instructed someone else to do it? NO. Am I allowed to state what I think of others who ride a brake or a conversion? YES.

Rather than coming back to vastly revise a post after the fact, it's typically better to make a new post so things stay in order.

That aside, what are you talking about? Spare us the rambling, tortured analogy, and for the umpteenth time, just tell us why track ends are safer. Why do you insist on repeating this assertion but refuse to explain it?

The forum responds with nonsense, most of which has nothing to do with the OPs question, misguided reasonings, slander, etc.

To answer the children on this thread, me riding brakeless is my choice. Have I ever instructed someone else to do it? NO. Am I allowed to state what I think of others who ride a brake or a conversion? YES.

I'm just going to ignore your tortured analogy.

We've responded with facts and logical explanations of why the LBS and you are wrong. You have done nothing to refute them other than state that track ends belong on track bikes. No facts, no logic, no anectdotes, no nothing.

If you can't see how your crusade against horz dropouts and your crusade for brakeless are inconsistent there may be no hope for you.

Also to truly acheive trolling success you need to mix vitriol with a kernel of truth rather than spout nonsense, refuse to reply when you get called on your bs and backdown from every insult you make.

When you kids get older, you'll know what I'm talking about. .

And maybe eventually you'll know what you are talking about?

I've been riding a KHS conversion as a SS and a FG since 1983.