Classic & Vintage - 1991 Schwinn Paramount

Is this too far past the prime? If I buy just a frame, is it difficult to find parts, or do common/standard parts fit? (I'm new at this.) The frame is a STEAL based on what I've read so far.

We'll need to know a bit more. You will have no problem finding parts to fit that frame though.

$150... frame, fork, Shimano R600 (1 inch threaded) headset, paint is beat up, anything else you need to know?

If the bike says "PDG Series" or "Oversize" anywhere on it, the bike was built by Panasonic in Japan for Schwinn. These are nice frames, but not of the same caliber normally associated with Waterford Paramounts, more of like a slightly higher than mid-level bike. "True" Paramounts were built by Waterford in 1991. $150 for a Series frame/fork is really, really steep in my opinion.

$150... frame, fork, Shimano R600 (1 inch threaded) headset, paint is beat up, anything else you need to know?

Look on the bottom bracket for the serial number of the frame. If it is a Waterford Paramount and made with SLX tubing it really is a good deal. I had a 1990 Paramount with an 8 spd C-Record group. Loved the bike. I just rode a 1988 Paramount with 2004 Campy 10spd components and a compact crank set on the Bicycle Tour of Virginia (450 miles). Contact me by PM and let me know the Frame #. Don

It's a series - PDG 3 and Oversize are on the frame. So is it worth more like $50?

I have a nice almost new Series 2 and paid $125 for the complete bike. Roger

Marc Muller who was in charge of Paramount production for Schwinn from the 1980 move to Waterford until the 1993 bankruptcy, and is now Richard Schwinn's partner in Waterford Precision Cycles had this to say about the PDG Series Paramounts:

"National/Panasonic were willing and eager partners in this project. I spent a lot of time in their plant, and they at our corporate headquarters, overseeing the smallest details to assure the bikes were worthy of the name. While some of us had reservations about the use of the name, after spending the 80's building up the Schwinn/Paramount/PDG brand, once the decision was made to use the name everyone was on board to make the finest possible bikes at their price point. Are they Waterford Paramounts? No. Are they excellent bicycles? You bet! Don't listen to the bashers, you'll drive yourself crazy!"

Schwinn began building Paramounts at the Waterford plant using True Temper OS tubes in 1989, and these bikes had "OS" decals on them, so the "OS" doesn't necessarily mean they're Panasonic built bikes.

Here's a 1992 Waterford OS-26 Paramount with the "OS" decal (from the '92 Paramount catalog):



The real tip-offs as to whether a bike is a Waterford Paramount or a Panasonic built Series Paramount are the "Series" decal, the serial number (Series bikes' serial numbers start with a number (last digit of year) then a letter (A-M, representing the month)), while the Waterford bikes have the self-describing serial numbers like 620E WK 87077 (620 is the frame size in mm, "E" is the fork steerer tube length, "W" is Waterford, "K" is the month of October, "87" is the year, and "077" means it's the 77th frame built in October, 1987). Finally, the Series Paramounts were delivered with unicrown forks while none of the Waterford road Paramounts had unicrown forks.

I bought a 92 Series 7 (top of the line Asian built bikes) that is in excellent condition and I paid $180 for the complete bike. It has full 600 Ultegra stuff including the STI shifter/brake levers, deraillers, brakes, hubs, Wolber rims, etc. $150 for a beat up frame missing most of the expensive components seems like a ripoff to me?

Thanks for the help. He's not interested in changing his price. Some poor sap is going to pay way too much $$$ for that frame. Finding a good bike for a good price is tough!

Marc Muller who was in charge of Paramount production for Schwinn from the 1980 move to Waterford until the 1993 bankruptcy, and is now Richard Schwinn's partner in Waterford Precision Cycles had this to say about the PDG Series Paramounts:

"National/Panasonic were willing and eager partners in this project. I spent a lot of time in their plant, and they at our corporate headquarters, overseeing the smallest details to assure the bikes were worthy of the name. While some of us had reservations about the use of the name, after spending the 80's building up the Schwinn/Paramount/PDG brand, once the decision was made to use the name everyone was on board to make the finest possible bikes at their price point. Are they Waterford Paramounts? No. Are they excellent bicycles? You bet! Don't listen to the bashers, you'll drive yourself crazy!"

A few PDG series bikes have passed through here. I thought they were really nice--if a bit more aggressive than the sport touring/touring bike geometries I prefer.

One in particular--a cherry red seven speed with RX100 (dual pivot SLR calipers and snappy shifting action) hyperglide group, v. 1991 stands out. After I rehabbed it, a staff member grabbed it. Unfortunately he doesn't ride it too much--but at least I get the pleasure of knowing where it is. It is one smooth running bike, with really nice made in Japan lugwork.

I have a Paramount mountain bike with a PDG sticker on it and a Waterford serial number. So I don't know about road bikes but with their MTB's the PDG sticker doesn't mean Japanese necessarily.

FWIW I had an 80's Panasonic track bike back in the day that was a beautiful bike, wish I still had it. BUt I think the Japanese made Shwinns just get a bad wrap. Which actually could be better for the collector who just wants a nice bike to ride for cheap :)

Which actually could be better for the collector who just wants a nice bike to ride for cheap :)

Exactly what I am looking for... I'm just not having the easiest time finding one.

If you don't want to spend much but want a top-notch ride, you might want to look at the late 80's Circuits, Pelotons or other top shelf regular line Schwinn models as well. I had been looking for an older Paramount, but recently I found an '86 Peloton in mint condition that I couldn't pass up with all original components for 150 bucks. Panasonic-built Columbus SL/SP frame. Gorgeous paint. Superbe Pro gear (very-very nice components imho). The tubulars were dry-rotted a bit, but now with a new set of skins it rides like a dream. The mid to late 80's bikes are a great place to look as that's when the technology really started to shine in cycles. (Newby to the board, but thought I'd give you my .02. Awesome site here guys!) Good luck in your quest.

Thanks for the help. He's not interested in changing his price. Some poor sap is going to pay way too much $$$ for that frame. Finding a good bike for a good price is tough!

Please note the presence of a bidder:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BIKE-Schwinn-Paramount-PDG-Schimano-1992-580-made-SWEET_W0QQitemZ320278372026QQihZ011QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As an aside, 50th anniversary Waterford P'mounts have doubled in price over the last three months:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHWINN-50th-ANNIVERSARY-PARAMOUNT-FRAME-AND-FORK-NOS_W0QQitemZ140253868046QQihZ004QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Markets changing kids!

I don't think I would pay $500 for anything with a unicrown fork.

Please note the presence of a bidder:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BIKE-Schwinn-Paramount-PDG-Schimano-1992-580-made-SWEET_W0QQitemZ320278372026QQihZ011QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The seller intentionally obfuscates the origin of this bike. It's a PDG Series 2 Paramount made by Panasonic in Japan (NOT Waterford), and is the low end model.

The bidder is paying WAY too much, changing market or not.

Exactly what I am looking for... I'm just not having the easiest time finding one.

What size are you looking for? I have a 52-ish cm Tange Prestige Schwinn Prologue f&f taking up needed space.


The seller intentionally obfuscates the origin of this bike. It's a PDG Series 2 Paramount made by Panasonic in Japan (NOT Waterford), and is the low end model.

The bidder is paying WAY too much, changing market or not.


I think its BS........ Who starts bidding at $600? (it could have had a starting bid price)

Yes, that description would do Madison Avenue proud, in illiterate sort of way:

1992 Paramount its about Perfect.
serial num#2801933
56.2 cm, 32.5 top post to ground
Thanks goes out to the Paramount Experts letting us know its a Waterford English Lugged Steel Frame. What controversy this bike has, was it welded at Waterford or Japan its not real clear. It was Shipped to Japan, to The Shimano Factory, further informing us that only 580 of these Shimano Equipped Bikes were built in 1992.

Fast, ridged stiff frame, with quick reaction a real dream to ride.

Large Mens 56.2 cm Lightweight Paramount Waterford Steel Lug Design. It was the bigtime Asian Opportunity "Shimano and Tange" to show us what they could build in a Bike of which only 580 made. Schwinn gave them the opportunity to preview the best Shimano could build.

All frame metal cut at from Schwinn then sent to Japan. Complete or Components.

All high-end Shimano running gear, compact brakes, recessed wire, Tange Oversized Tube Heat Tempered Waterford Frame and Fork Series 2 Paramount. Exage Shimano 500 EX Brakes. Sure there were many other series 2,3,4, Paramounts but this was Japan's chance to show us what they could do for quality components.

Yup its lighter than any pre 92 Paramounts by we say 2 pounds "apples to apples" with the 3 series & pre 92 models out there.

Japan did not want chromed english lugs, and used no steel its running gear and brakes. All intregal components chain rings, rear derailleur and F/R brakes, top seat tube and yes the quiver is aluminum.

This one is our store owners and its about 100% Perfect, but was never a Garage Hanger.

So we did add...zephal road pump Presta, New brake shoes, New Pro Series Rubber Road Tires that stick like glue, and a New Wisconsin Made Leather Saddle and Old School Leather wrapped Bars(extra padding at top and bar ends) Takes more leather but its nice on the hands.

Don't forget the one USA original in 92 from PDG they made and shipped by the Japanesse Bikebuilders of Shimano a bar stem quiver USA, and The Frame Waterford.

Yup thats it from The USA boys at Schwinn. They gave em an aircraft grade aluminum quiver for their contribution to This American/Japanese Colaboration to build a Paramount....wonder how Shimano is doing these days ?

580 were made super rare & super fine ! Its not the $300 bike of 1991 or 1993 !

www.waterfordbikes.com

I need a 56 or 57 cm -ish. I'm 6'. Craigslist is full of crappy Schwinns and stupid Target mountain bikes in my area. I just don't know where else to look. I could do eBay, but I was hoping to avoid shipping something.

I need a 56 or 57 cm -ish. I'm 6'. Craigslist is full of crappy Schwinns and stupid Target mountain bikes in my area. I just don't know where else to look. I could do eBay, but I was hoping to avoid shipping something.
I realize bike fit is a personal thing, but that sounds small to me. I'm 6' with a 35.5" leg length, and I ride a 61cm frame.

My inseam is about 33". I could maybe fit a 58 or 59 cm. Much bigger and the standover wouldn't be comfortable. I've been to two different bike shops and they both put me on a 56.

But it's got an "aircraft grade aluminum quiver"!

I realize bike fit is a personal thing, but that sounds small to me. I'm 6' with a 35.5" leg length, and I ride a 61cm frame.

Yep, it's a personal thing. I'm about 6' too, longer torso, proportionately(sp?) shorter legs, I usually ride a 55-57ctc frame size. I fit my bikes more according to the top tube length and then just deal with the standover height. Works for me.

Netdewt,
check nearby cities on craigslist as well. Madison WI has a very active cycling market, Milwaukee has a decent activity as well, you might be able to find a deal where something can be worked out with someone meeting you part way. But with gas close to $4/gal it gets costly fast. If you find one around Milwaukee to Sheboygan I can store it for you if need be until other arrangements can be made.

Thanks, I'll take a look elsewhere.

A Motobecane Jubilee Sport just popped up, seller says the paint is excellent, $95. I like the sound of this one... any info on it? I searched a bit, seems nice.

Please note the presence of a bidder:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BIKE-Schwinn-Paramount-PDG-Schimano-1992-580-made-SWEET_W0QQitemZ320278372026QQihZ011QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As an aside, 50th anniversary Waterford P'mounts have doubled in price over the last three months:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHWINN-50th-ANNIVERSARY-PARAMOUNT-FRAME-AND-FORK-NOS_W0QQitemZ140253868046QQihZ004QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Markets changing kids!

The outfitter at harper's ferry! They should save that bike for thru hikers to run errands!
I thought waterford was in Wisconsin, or is that waterloo?

Actually both Waterford and Waterloo are in Wisconsin. One builds Treks and the other built Paramounts and now builds Waterfords. I will let you figure out which is which. Roger

Not trying to bring back an old thread, but can anyone verify the statement in this thread?

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=167086&highlight=3+series+pdg

> The "Series" Paramounts mostly came from Japan, but the series 2, 20,
3 and 30 came from Taiwan and eventually China by 1992..

I was under the impression that these were all Japanese Panasonic made frames.

Not trying to bring back an old thread, but can anyone verify the statement in this thread?

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=167086&highlight=3+series+pdg

> The "Series" Paramounts mostly came from Japan, but the series 2, 20,
3 and 30 came from Taiwan and eventually China by 1992..

I was under the impression that these were all Japanese Panasonic made frames.
The two people who would know for sure are Marc Muller and Richard Schwinn who were both very involved in the Series Paramount production contracts. Your quote is from an e-mail from Richard Schwinn to Bob Hufford, so it is to be believed.

The Paramount history section of the Waterford website says the Series Paramounts were built "in Asian factories" rather than just Japanese factories, so it looks like the higher end Series road bikes (Series 7 and Series 5) were built by Panasonic, and the lower end (Series 2 and Series 3) were built in Taiwan and China.

The two people who would know for sure are Marc Muller and Richard Schwinn who were both very involved in the Series Paramount production contracts. Your quote is from an e-mail from Richard Schwinn to Bob Hufford, so it is to be believed.

The Paramount history section of the Waterford website says the Series Paramounts were built "in Asian factories" rather than just Japanese factories, so it looks like the higher end Series road bikes (Series 7 and Series 5) were built by Panasonic, and the lower end (Series 2 and Series 3) were built in Taiwan and China.

Thanks, Scooper. EPay has a Series 3 up for grabs and was debating whether or not it was worth somewhere in the ballpark of $300. Any thoughts?

I have a Series 2 and it a very nice riding bike. I believe its the same frame as a Series 3 with lesser components. Frame is Tange double butted tubing. I paid $125 for it in almost new condition. Roger

I just got a great looking series 3 paramount with the rx-100 group for $235.

It was originally selling for $350 but I could not buy it, then I see it re-listed a month later for the lower price and I could not resist.

=)

It is that blue color in a 57-ish frame size. perfect fit for me!!!

Can't wait to cannibalize it into a 10 speed STI setup =)

I just got a great looking series 3 paramount with the rx-100 group for $235.

It was originally selling for $350 but I could not buy it, then I see it re-listed a month later for the lower price and I could not resist.

=)

It is that blue color in a 57-ish frame size. perfect fit for me!!!

Can't wait to cannibalize it into a 10 speed STI setup =)


Now I know why he didnt call me back......thats Ok though....scored a Klein instead.

Now I know why he didnt call me back......thats Ok though....scored a Klein instead.


He had that bike for sale over 2 months...

The only stock parts I kept were the brakes =) They are labeled Shimano SLR RX100. They work GOOD with the new pads =)

It has been converted to 105-10 speed.

Here are the pictures:

The seller intentionally obfuscates the origin of this bike. It's a PDG Series 2 Paramount made by Panasonic in Japan (NOT Waterford), and is the low end model.

The bidder is paying WAY too much, changing market or not.

By a factor of 2 or 3. I sold a Waterford built 1989 Paramount OS, fully restored by Waterford, with Dura Ace 9 speed for $650.

The bike twice failed to meet my $750 reserve in Ebay auctions. Guess that's the vagaries of Ebay.

He had that bike for sale over 2 months...

The only stock parts I kept were the brakes =) They are labeled Shimano SLR RX100. They work GOOD with the new pads =)

It has been converted to 105-10 speed.

I know...I just couldnt justify his $350 price tag. By the time I saw the 'new price' you obviously had picked it up.

It looks good!!! I knew it would clean up real nice!!!

I know...I just couldnt justify his $350 price tag. By the time I saw the 'new price' you obviously had picked it up.

It looks good!!! I knew it would clean up real nice!!!

Mavic Cosmic Elites sell for what guy's?

I'm consistently amazed by the P'mount bashing, but I admit that I like the way it keeps me able to find 'em cheap. Schwinn Circuits, Super Sports, Preludes, Pelotons, Voyageurs, sometimes even down to the lowly World Sport consistently sell for more than PDG P'mounts, even though they're lower end models all made by Panasonic, in the same factories, in the same timeframe.

In answer to your real question, is a PDG3 worth $325? Abso-friggin-lutely! Even without the $400 wheelset. These should sell for more like $550 (like the Panasonic Team does. Same bike, different lugs.)

Danny

Mavic Cosmic Elites sell for what guy's?

I'm consistently amazed by the P'mount bashing, but I admit that I like the way it keeps me able to find 'em cheap. Schwinn Circuits, Super Sports, Preludes, Pelotons, Voyageurs, sometimes even down to the lowly World Sport consistently sell for more than PDG P'mounts, even though they're lower end models all made by Panasonic, in the same factories, in the same timeframe.

In answer to your real question, is a PDG3 worth $325? Abso-friggin-lutely! Even without the $400 wheelset. These should sell for more like $550 (like the Panasonic Team does. Same bike, different lugs.)

Danny


Danny, the new owner replaced the originals wheels with the Mavics.

The $350 tag was for a stock bike with full RX100 components.

Danny, the new owner replaced the originals wheels with the Mavics.

The $350 tag was for a stock bike with full RX100 components.

Doesn't detract an inch from what I wrote. There's voodoo economics going on in the heads of prospective PDG buyers and the frames ride brilliantly.

Doesn't detract an inch from what I wrote. There's voodoo economics going on in the heads of prospective PDG buyers and the frames ride brilliantly.

True, I had already retired that wheelset a long time ago, only to install it on the World Sport until they were moved to the Pmount.

=)

After riding it today for the first time (10 miles) I can say for sure that it is a bit stiffer than the world sport, and it is a bit lighter too. Ride quality is just as good and you can't beat steel =)

dude, I want to selling my bike. but i don't know how much $$ start with!?



Or Should I modify my road bike into singled-speed?