Triathlon - Nemesis from Bikes Direct

I have been looking around for a nice tri bike and I came across this... http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/nemesis06_SPECIALpre.htm

I know the components are great but has anyone heard of the frame? Is this set up a good deal? This is the max budget I have! Thanks :)

I have been looking around for a nice tri bike and I came across this... http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/nemesis06_SPECIALpre.htm

I know the components are great but has anyone heard of the frame? Is this set up a good deal? This is the max budget I have! Thanks :)

I've been looking for a while myself. If 1K is your max budget, I can't see you doing any better than this. I'm in a similar situation. An upgrade to a different (perhaps better) frame would be about $600 extra. If you do decide to pull the trigger let me know. Maybe we can do a group buy. I think there's one other poster here interested in the nemesis as well.

Did you read the sticky (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=436387) on this topic?

If you have $1000 to spend, I would recommend buying a nice used road bike and adding clip-on aerobars. That way, if you decide you don't like triathlons you still have a nice road bike, but if you do want to stick with triathlons you'll be able to upgrade to a really nice tri bike guilt-free (aka the bike you're replacing will still be able to function nicely as a road bike). Whereas if you buy the Motobecane you're pretty much stuck with that, unless you want to have two tri bikes when you decide you want to ditch your Motobecane and get something nicer.

Buy the right bike, the first time.

Did you read the sticky (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=436387) on this topic?

If you have $1000 to spend, I would recommend buying a nice used road bike and adding clip-on aerobars. That way, if you decide you don't like triathlons you still have a nice road bike, but if you do want to stick with triathlons you'll be able to upgrade to a really nice tri bike guilt-free (aka the bike you're replacing will still be able to function nicely as a road bike). Whereas if you buy the Motobecane you're pretty much stuck with that, unless you want to have two tri bikes when you decide you want to ditch your Motobecane and get something nicer.

Buy the right bike, the first time.

:eek: Wow you lost me on that one. If he wants to do different kinds of rides, yeah go with a road bike. But if he wants to do triathlons you'd recommend he go with a 73 degree or shallower ST angle with a used frame and weaker components at the same price? Remember all you told me about the importance of a steep angle? I'm starting to wonder if you're just anti-bikesdirect. The logic just isn't adding up.

That's a good point. It's really all about budget. IIRC, you're willing to spend more on a bike which possibly shows more commitment to the sport (or at least more committment to buying a fast bike), and hence my recommendation to you to invest in a dedicated tri bike. However, at $1000 there really isn't much to be had in the way of new tri bikes (except for the BD bike, Leader builds and perhaps some other obscure bikes) so the quality may be lacking in any tri bike purchase at this price point.

It's a subtle point to make, and I can appreciate your confusion. However, in the end a $1000 tri bike just really isn't that appealing, BD or not. You're either going to get decent components and a questionable frame and build (aka BD), or questionable components/build and a decent frame (if you buy used).

With $1500 or more it's very possible to buy a bike that will last you for a long time without the need for upgrading, and my concern with this poster is that he or she will find himself, in a year, looking at his or her BD bike and saying, "I wish I had paid the extra $X00 for a nicer frame," or "I wish I had gotten properly fit on my tri bike," or "wow that guy's P2C looks really cool, I wish I had a carbon fiber bike like his," etc.

So, with only $1000 to play with, I still think that the best bet is to buy a road bike with good components, ride it with a forward seat post (to get the seat angle steeper) and clip-ons for a while, until one can know for certain what kind of tri bike they want to truly invest in. Then, when you go to buy your tri bike "for real" in a few years, you won't be stuck with a tri bike that pretty much becomes useless (unless you sell it) when you decide to upgrade. With the road bike, you've still got a nice, usable machine even when you decide to spend $$$ on a tri bike.

I will, however, concede this:

IF the OP is fully committed to doing triathlons and less than, say, 5 or 10% group rides
AND the OP is 100% certain that this bike will fit him without crazy fit adjustments
AND the OP doesn't anticipate wanting to upgrade the frame in the next few years
AND the OP can't spend any more than $1000 after accessories
THEN this Motobecane looks pretty good.

However, I think that many of the stipulations I've made are still up in the air. Some more feedback from the OP would be helpful.

I'm glad you mentioned Leader. They were just covered in this month's issue of Triathlete Magazine and their new tri frame got great marks. If I were choosing between Leader and the Moto, I would probably go Leader. According to TM, the new frame is a truly aero tri frame, sports internal cable routing if I remember correctly, and has a nice feel. Nothing against the Moto, but as I understand it, it's essentially the Fuji Aloha from a few years back. To my eye, the leader looks a little more low and aero. Just a semi-subjective opinion.

However, at $1000 there really isn't much to be had in the way of new tri bikes (except for the BD bike, Leader builds and perhaps some other obscure bikes) so the quality may be lacking in any tri bike purchase at this price point.

Beside the frame the, component groups are all name-brand. It seems you're basing this whole theory on the frame quality. Yet I've never heard you state any actual evidence that the Nemesis frame is any worse or better than its $1500+ competitors.



It's a subtle point to make, and I can appreciate your confusion. However, in the end a $1000 tri bike just really isn't that appealing, BD or not. You're either going to get decent components and a questionable frame and build (aka BD), or questionable components/build and a decent frame (if you buy used).

So again, what do you base your suspicions of the frame on? There are lots of reviews out there and I've not seen any that go after the frame.

I'm glad you mentioned Leader. They were just covered in this month's issue of Triathlete Magazine and their new tri frame got great marks. If I were choosing between Leader and the Moto, I would probably go Leader. According to TM, the new frame is a truly aero tri frame, sports internal cable routing if I remember correctly, and has a nice feel. Nothing against the Moto, but as I understand it, it's essentially the Fuji Aloha from a few years back. To my eye, the leader looks a little more low and aero. Just a semi-subjective opinion.

You mean these?

LD 730TT (http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_730tt1.cfm)

LD 735TT 2008 (http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_730tt2.cfm)

First I've heard of them. They look nice. For $1100 and $1220 price sure seems right. Hmmm.

Beside the frame the, component groups are all name-brand. It seems you're basing this whole theory on the frame quality.

That is correct.


Yet I've never heard you state any actual evidence that the Nemesis frame is any worse or better than its $1500+ competitors.I've been searching for wind tunnel evidence going either way on any of Bikes Direct's frames and I haven't found anything either way. What I have found, however, is wind tunnel stats to show that the three fastest tri frames currently out on the market are, in no particular order, the Trek Equinox TTX, the Felt DA and the Cervelo P3C (the order depends on who funded the study, no surprise there). I would be *very* surprised if a BD frame was on the same level as any of these frames in terms of aerodynamics, considering that I haven't been able to find *any* wind tunnel tests for the BD TT/tri frames, and the BD frame shares few physical characteristics with the three "fast" frames other than basic tube configuration.

Of course, no evidence isn't the same as evidence to the contrary, and I'm aware that I'm making a slight logical fallacy here. But, in my opinion, saying that the BD frames are inferior based on a lack of wind tunnel data is not too much of a stretch, all things considered.


So again, what do you base your suspicions of the frame on? There are lots of reviews out there and I've not seen any that go after the frame.Well, when talking about making a tri bike purchase, you really are mostly looking at the frame, as long as the component spec is adequate. The frame is the only part of the bike you can't easily replace, so it's important to get it right the first time. Now, if a bike had a component spec that was significantly better than another bike on one's shopping list (AND the bike with the better component spec came with preferable "personal" parts such as the saddle, aerobars and pedals), then the componentry would become a point of greater consideration. However, in most cases that isn't true, or isn't true to a great enough extent to be anything more than a second consideration to the frame.

As a side note, I too have only heard good things about the Leader frames. If you're comfortable assembling your own bike, you can make a great bike with componentry that suits you for under a grand easily. The only things I'm not a fan of with the leader (besides the fact that the geometry doesn't suit me personally) is the external cable routing (which they have fixed for 2009) and the fact that you have to buy the frame from scratch to get a good deal (I'm not a big fan of the builds on their site).

Also, one more thing about the Motobecane bike. The geometry chart for the Moto doesn't give a lot of information about the fit of the bike, just silly things like top tube length and standover height. However, the critical measurements (stack and reach (http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/techctr/stack.html)) for many bikes, including the Leader frame, are available via Slowtwitch's Stack and Reach database (http://www.slowtwitch.com/stackreach.html). These two measurements are the only way to tell for sure if a bike will fit you right. (Stack is defined as the vertical distance between the bottom bracket and the top of the headtube, and Reach is defined as the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket and the top of the headtube.)

For example, when purchasing my bike, I knew I needed a bike with a stack of about 485mm and a reach of about 410mm. I knew this through measuring the contact points on my previous bike and extrapolating to where the head tube should be ideally placed. Since unfortunately no one makes a bike with that little stack in my size, I had to compromise a bit by purchasing a bike with the correct reach and using an adjustable stem to "offset" the excess stack.

You mean these?

LD 730TT (http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_730tt1.cfm)

LD 735TT 2008 (http://www.leaderbikestore.com/pd_ld_730tt2.cfm)

First I've heard of them. They look nice. For $1100 and $1220 price sure seems right. Hmmm.

Yessir, that's the one I'm talking about, the 735TT, and now there is a 2009 version. I've seen both the MOTO and the Leader at some local races. The MOTO was a nice looking bike, but I will say that when I picked it up it felt a bit on the heavy side (granted, it was a large frame). The Leader I saw was very impressive looking, sleek, low, and stealthy, but looks are just personal preference. If you're ready to drop 1k on a tri bike, I would at least read the August (I think that's right) issue of Tri Mag for their review. I think around page 180. Don't forget though that we're nearing the end of the season. Bikes like the Felt S32 retail at under $1500, and I've heard of folks snagging them for around $1000. Just some food for thought. As the 09 models roll in, look for shops to start cutting deals on the '08 stock.

I fully understand where you are coming from Rahzel, and many points are very valid. But if someone has a limited budget, not choosing the Nemesis based how aero the the frame is (doesn't look aero) is a minor consideration IMO...

As long as the user can find a good position on the bike, this is key. As the rider position plays a largest part in aerodynamic gains/losses, the frameset a very minor one. Even the most aero frameset is wasted if the rider can't fit properly and can't process watts or ride on the aerobars whilst racing.

As for the upgrading comments. Regardless of the $$$ spent, upgradeitis will alway be in the blood.;)

I someone has a limited budget, not choosing the Nemesis based how aero the the frame is (doesn't look aero) is a minor consideration IMO...

Oh definitely. The aero-ness of the frame is relatively minor (though it is more important than, say, upgrading to Dura-Ace derailleurs over 105). However, with the limited fit data provided by Motobecane for its tri bikes, it's going to be hard to make a judgment with regards to how well that bike will fit, unless you can get access to one in person before you buy it.

If it does turn out to fit a given rider, it's probably a fine choice. However, there are frames out there, in the specified price range, that are definitely more aero and may fit just as well (or better).

Oh definitely. The aero-ness of the frame is relatively minor.

So, the aeroness of the frame is no big deal?



However, with the limited fit data provided by Motobecane for its tri bikes, it's going to be hard to make a judgment with regards to how well that bike will fit,...

But your alternative is to buy a used bike. Bikes Direct will let you return the bike in 30 days of it doesn't fit. You buy a used bike that doesn't fit and you're up the creek.

So, the aeroness of the frame is no big deal?

It's not at the top of "my list," but it's above, say, derailleur spec (if you are choosing between 105/Ultegra and Dura-Ace). Frame aerodynamics are not nearly as important as fit when choosing a frame, but can become a deciding factor between two frames if both frames fit equally well.


But your alternative is to buy a used bike. Bikes Direct will let you return the bike in 30 days of it doesn't fit. You buy a used bike that doesn't fit and you're up the creek.

Hmm, I didn't know that. If BD either covers shipping, or you can find a low-cost method to ship the bike back to them, then that would be pretty cool. You're right, if you buy a used bike that doesn't fit you're up the creek, but ideally the person from whom you buy lets you have a spin or two on it, and/or you can take some measurements and see if the bike is right for you.

Yessir, that's the one I'm talking about, the 735TT, and now there is a 2009 version. I've seen both the MOTO and the Leader at some local races. The MOTO was a nice looking bike, but I will say that when I picked it up it felt a bit on the heavy side (granted, it was a large frame). The Leader I saw was very impressive looking, sleek, low, and stealthy, but looks are just personal preference. If you're ready to drop 1k on a tri bike, I would at least read the August (I think that's right) issue of Tri Mag for their review. I think around page 180. Don't forget though that we're nearing the end of the season. Bikes like the Felt S32 retail at under $1500, and I've heard of folks snagging them for around $1000. Just some food for thought. As the 09 models roll in, look for shops to start cutting deals on the '08 stock.

Thanks. In all my searchings, I've never seen these. I'll have to seriously look into them. About what time of year should I expect my LBS to lower their prices on 08 models? My LBS is a Specialized and Cervelo dealer.

"When" a dealer is willing to make a deal depends on when the new model year for the brand hits the shelf in my observation. I've seen it happen more with Specialized than with a brand like say Trek. I would say closer to the end of the year, when '09s start pre-ordering, or better yet when they show up on the showroom floor. It's hard to sell an '08 at $X000 MSRP if the '09 is listed as practically the same price. I think it all depends on the dealer though.

I don't know where it came up but ditto on the Felt S32. Heck, you could even walk into a bike store and say, "I've got $1000 to spend, can I walk out of here with a S32?". WHats the worst that can happen?

Try these guys out:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/

They are announcing the closeout of their 08 bikes. Their July sale has been extended from what I can tell online, though I have not called yet. Saying something like 15% and up off of bikes. Look here:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/shop/home.php?xid=5f341942ea9732fd9419fd2d6df66bca

In any case, they carry the felt S32 and the Cervelo P2SL. At a list of $1499, If you were able to swing 20-25% off the felt that would get you in at $1125 - $1200. Not bad for a new tri specific ride.

I don't know where it came up but ditto on the Felt S32. Heck, you could even walk into a bike store and say, "I've got $1000 to spend, can I walk out of here with a S32?". WHats the worst that can happen?

Thanks. I went ahead and tried this with thee stores, but with no luck.

Try these guys out:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/

They are announcing the closeout of their 08 bikes. Their July sale has been extended from what I can tell online, though I have not called yet. Saying something like 15% and up off of bikes. Look here:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/shop/home.php?xid=5f341942ea9732fd9419fd2d6df66bca

In any case, they carry the felt S32 and the Cervelo P2SL. At a list of $1499, If you were able to swing 20-25% off the felt that would get you in at $1125 - $1200. Not bad for a new tri specific ride.

Nope, not bad at all. Just left them a message. Many thanks.