Advocacy & Safety - Ticketing cyclists on Calgary trails

Here's a story about Calgary deciding to target cyclists on the city trail system for speeding tickets ($50 per ticket): http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/08/07/calgary-cyclists-speeding-pathways.html#socialcomments

As a cyclist on these trails I am dismayed by this situation. I ride on these trails for exercise purposes, and always with courtesy for other trail users. Now if I go faster than 20kmph(!!) I may be coming home with a speeding ticket.

I'm interested to see if anyone out there has encountered a similar situation in their own cities, and what, if anything, was done about it by the cycling community.

Some of the 'shared' paths around Brisbane have a 10km/h speed limit. There's not a lot of compliance with that one.

Some of the 'shared' paths around Brisbane have a 10km/h speed limit. There's not a lot of compliance with that one.

10 km/h basically means "bikes not welcome". No point even using a bike at that speed.

so just stick to the streets. Problem solved.

A fair proposal, but Calgary is not what you'd call "cycling friendly".

In other words there are too many really (and I mean really!) bad drivers out there in Calgary. Riding the trails is a safe and fun option here.

A fair proposal, but Calgary is not what you'd call "cycling friendly".

In other words there are too many really (and I mean really!) bad drivers out there in Calgary. Riding the trails is a safe and fun option here.

Ride in the center of the lane. Be obnoxious, watch your back side and make sure to inform them that you're harassed on the trails.

I could see places where a 20kmh speed limit would make sense on trails: The really busy parts. But it's self enforced anyway. You can't really go faster without being a jerk. And, at least here, cops can arrest you for pretty much anything as long as you're on public property. So they can just grab the people who are being jerks and give them a 10 minute talking to. The boredom will be worse than the $50.

10 km/h basically means "bikes not welcome". No point even using a bike at that speed.

Yup -- I walk at 8km/h (12-minute miles).

My car can go 150 mph on the road. With a speed limit of 65 mph. I live with it. Just because you can and want to ride faster than the path speed limit doesn't mean you get to do so.

My car can go 150 mph on the road. With a speed limit of 65 mph. I live with it. Just because you can and want to ride faster than the path speed limit doesn't mean you get to do so.

M'kay. But do you think it would be ok if the cops targeted just car drivers going over 65, or they let other vehicle types off scott free from all their (frequent) transgressions on the same roads?

There's also a big difference between a speed limit of 100mph and one of 12mph (20kph)

12 is stupid (like having a 25mph speed limit on the freeways)

Sorry dude, ride the roads if you want to go faster than 20. If you take the lane and stay off Elbow Drive (potholes will eat your bike!), the drivers are mostly fine. Hug the curb and act timid - they won't even see you. But in 2 years cycling here I have only had one argument with a driver. I've had a worse time as a pedestrian than on the bike!

There's only one trail where I wish for a higher speed limit, and that's the one around Nose Hill. All the other trails are too twisty and/or busy to go fast, but I hit 47 kph coming down off Nose Hill (I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't had a clear sightline two kilometres down the path, and no intersections coming up).

20 kph is a perfectly reasonable limit for *recreational* pathways.

really? 12mph is SLOW. . . I mean really SLOW.

18mph would seem more reasonable (30kph) . . . and even that's slow.

20kph? They must really want people off them dangerous bikes and into cars!

My commute would take 4.5 hours if I was to stick to that speed!

Small wonder that Calgary hosts so many obesity clinics along with a specialist child unit!

"Our pathways are designed for multiuse and all users have a responsibility to comply with the bylaws that were designed to keep Calgarians safe,"

sharing the trail with people, there are considerations to be made.

I have a trail outside my door, but I take the road to work because the only law on the trail is cyclists must yield to pedestrians. Not only the cyclist is always at fault and liable in any collision, those collisions are much more frequent than on the road because there's no telling what a pedestrian will do.

My commute would take 4.5 hours if I was to stick to that speed!


Are you riding all the way in to Copenhagen from Roskilde? Egads. How long does that take at whatever speed you're riding?

really? 12mph is SLOW. . . I mean really SLOW.
.

NOt when you run into a baby stroller. Or an old woman with osteoperosis.

M'kay. But do you think it would be ok if the cops targeted just car drivers going over 65, or they let other vehicle types off scott free from all their (frequent) transgressions on the same roads?

If they judge the cars to be the most dangerous things on the road breaking the law, then yes, I think selective enforcement is the way to go.

If you look at one of the paths, the most dangerous user is the bicycle. If a stroller bumps into a walker then nobody is hurt. If a bike at 20 mph hits a stroller, then major injuries are likley.

The speed limit on any road/path should be set to protect the most vulnerable user of the path/road.

Are you riding all the way in to Copenhagen from Roskilde? Egads. How long does that take at whatever speed you're riding?

Yes, both ways, all weathers, all year round. Averages around 2 hours for a round trip.

Just curious -- are they tracking you with a radar gun to get your speed? ;) Oops -- read the article after-the-post; can't believe they are wasting time/effort doing this vs. time spent on real traffic speeding ........

great to hear calgary's constables are quelling heinous crimes such as speeding on the MUP. I wonder if people get injured by Calgary motorists not following speed limits, and if enforcement efforts might be better directed there?

how many injuries happen on calgary bike paths? is it truly like walking the gauntlet?

What got the mounties plusfours in a bunch? overzealous walking advocates? a legislator buzzed by the trail pelotons while on a weekend stroll?
Did a dog get squashed recently, causing animal rights activists to mobilize against speeding on the MUP?

Is it zero tolerance? Or are they just targeting the top reckless speeders?

It sounds like zero tolerance so far. Six to eight Bylaw officers pulling in dastardly commuters and ticketing them.

I actually tried riding at 20kmph today for a bit, I couldn't, kept "speeding" :eek:

Are roadway speed limits enforced with zero tolerance? If not why the difference?

In Arizona, US - speeders are 'given' an 11mph (17kph) over tolerance.

"Why are speeders allowed an 11 mph buffer?
The margin is intended to address language in the Arizona Revised Statutes related to speed offenses that defines, "...reasonable and prudent..." speed. It also provides a reasonable margin of error/grace for inaccurate vehicle speedometers and short-term lapses of attention by otherwise law-abiding and generally cautious drivers.
Our primary focus is on intentional, aggressive and negligent drivers. Statistics tell us that at 10 mph over the posted speed limit, the probability of being involved in a crash doubles. However, at 20 mph over, the probability increases to 11 times greater. We are trying to change the driving behavior of those persons who are most likely to cause crashes."

Must cyclists have a speedometer? It can be very hard to stay below 20kph without one.

Are roadway speed limits enforced with zero tolerance? If not why the difference?

In Arizona, US - speeders are 'given' an 11mph (17kph) over tolerance.

"Why are speeders allowed an 11 mph buffer?
The margin is intended to address language in the Arizona Revised Statutes related to speed offenses that defines, "...reasonable and prudent..." speed. It also provides a reasonable margin of error/grace for inaccurate vehicle speedometers and short-term lapses of attention by otherwise law-abiding and generally cautious drivers.
Our primary focus is on intentional, aggressive and negligent drivers. Statistics tell us that at 10 mph over the posted speed limit, the probability of being involved in a crash doubles. However, at 20 mph over, the probability increases to 11 times greater. We are trying to change the driving behavior of those persons who are most likely to cause crashes."

Must cyclists have a speedometer? It can be very hard to stay below 20kph without one.

About to drive down to Phoenix from Flagstaff, so thanks for the heads up!

I was thinking about this today after my speedometer wire broke. I have to splice it...

The first year I was here, someone DID die on the Bow River pathway after being hit by a speeding cyclist. So I do think it's completely reasonable to enforce a speed limit, given how busy some parts of the trails are becoming.

Calgary's traffic bylaws are very specific that bicycles ARE legal users of the roadways as well as pathways, and have the same rights and responsibilities as car drivers. There have been quite a number of ads and public awareness campaigns about it, and my experience has been that most drivers are good about giving room (and the ones who don't realize they are passing too close, when I catch up to them and politely ask them to be more careful, have all apologized and thanked me for the heads-up). Yes, there are careless drivers and the constant construction is not helping matters, because that adds a lot of distractions, but overall I'm a lot happier cycling here than I was in oh-so-Green Victoria, BC (where the drivers DO aim for you - if they are paying attention to the road at all...)

About to drive down to Phoenix from Flagstaff, so thanks for the heads up!
I17 is best driven at posted limits - at least for me. The folks who go >75mph on that road, especially the curves and grades are crazy - the many vehicles off the road tell the story. Many years ago I was one of those pushing 85 - and now found interestingly that traveling at the SL hardly takes longer (and is much more relaxing), due to the many places (especially in Friday afternoon rush hour) that traffic slows well below SL.

Al

The only thing I want to know is are they ticketing motorists with the same level of intensity... or do they allow some "tolerance."

I think it is quite safe to say that motorists have a far worse record than cyclists.

The only thing I want to know is are they ticketing motorists with the same level of intensity... or do they allow some "tolerance."

That is where I was going too with my comments. I don't doubt that a shared (or not) path has a speeding problem - there are always some reckless cyclists, flying around blind corners or squeezing between slower cyclists without consideration. Good enforcement should go after them - and focus enforcement in zones that are most heavily used and during times of most congestion.

But if they are nabbing 22kph cyclists for speeding say on an empty stretch of path with good sightlines - that is BS. (not that they are)

Al

If they judge the cars to be the most dangerous things on the road breaking the law, then yes, I think selective enforcement is the way to go.

If you look at one of the paths, the most dangerous user is the bicycle. If a stroller bumps into a walker then nobody is hurt. If a bike at 20 mph hits a stroller, then major injuries are likley.

The speed limit on any road/path should be set to protect the most vulnerable user of the path/road.

+1000.

Although that does disagree with the 85% rule... :rolleyes:

$50.00 is a relatively small fine, consider yourself lucky.

I really dislike cyclists that use the MUP as their personal time trials course, it's rude and inappropriate to ride so fast there; you should use the road if you want to put the hammer down.

$50.00 is a relatively small fine, consider yourself lucky.

I really dislike cyclists that use the MUP as their personal time trials course, it's rude and inappropriate to ride so fast there; you should use the road if you want to put the hammer down.

I think it depends on the MUP.

There are some locally where trying to ride it as a race course will get your face planted quickly into a chain link fence. (there is even one MUP with stairs... for cyclists no doubt) Then there is the MUP right outside of my office that is built along side the freeway... it has excellent sight lines, wide sweeping turns and is some 9-10 feet wide... it begs to be ridden at speed.

Bottom line, not all MUPs are built equally... ever see a "standard" for MUPs???

I think it depends on the MUP.

There are some locally where trying to ride it as a race course will get your face planted quickly into a chain link fence. (there is even one MUP with stairs... for cyclists no doubt) Then there is the MUP right outside of my office that is built along side the freeway... it has excellent sight lines, wide sweeping turns and is some 9-10 feet wide... it begs to be ridden at speed.

Bottom line, not all MUPs are built equally... ever see a "standard" for MUPs???

No, but apparently there is a 'standard' for cyclists riding on any and all MUPs. :rolleyes:

I think it depends on the MUP.

There are some locally where trying to ride it as a race course will get your face planted quickly into a chain link fence. (there is even one MUP with stairs... for cyclists no doubt) Then there is the MUP right outside of my office that is built along side the freeway... it has excellent sight lines, wide sweeping turns and is some 9-10 feet wide... it begs to be ridden at speed.

Bottom line, not all MUPs are built equally... ever see a "standard" for MUPs???

I think it depends on the number of users, more so than on the design of the facility

"Our pathways are designed for multiuse and all users have a responsibility to comply with the bylaws that were designed to keep Calgarians safe,"

sharing the trail with people, there are considerations to be made.

I have a trail outside my door, but I take the road to work because the only law on the trail is cyclists must yield to pedestrians. Not only the cyclist is always at fault and liable in any collision, those collisions are much more frequent than on the road because there's no telling what a pedestrian will do.

Over here there are also rules governing pedestrians use of shared paths. They basically amount to 'hold your line, look when crossing, and don't unnecessarily obstruct other users'.

Personally, I think 20km/h is a reasonable speed for a shared path. It's roughly equivalent to the 50km/h speed limit on residential streets for cars. Yeah, it feels slow, but given the unpredictability of most pedestrians, it's probably fair enough. If you want to ride faster, there's always the roads.

My recollection of the bike paths in Calgary was that they were pretty good, but, like I've encountered in so many places, too many bonehead pedestrians using the bike only part of the path, even on the sections where there was a couple of metres of grass between the ped and bike paths.

I would guess that the cops would use some common sense about it. If you are doing 22kph around blind turns where there could be pedestrians, you should be ticketed. Just as you should be allowed 40kph on wide open stretches.

I found this story about this situation: http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20080807/CGY_bylaw_cyclist_080807/20080807/?hub=CalgaryHome

I particularly like the second photo, they look like a dangerous crew.... :eek: :lol:

When you're busting women and young children, you've gone too far in my book.

I found this story about this situation: http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20080807/CGY_bylaw_cyclist_080807/20080807/?hub=CalgaryHome

I particularly like the second photo, they look like a dangerous crew.... :eek: :lol:

When you're busting women and young children, you've gone too far in my book.

Is a "Bylaw Officer" the same as a police officer? Sounds more like a glorified meter maid. If they are not LEO's , then what are there other duties?

Is a "Bylaw Officer" the same as a police officer? Sounds more like a glorified meter maid. If they are not LEO's , then what are there other duties?

"Glorified meter maid" is a pretty good description.

I think it depends on the number of users, more so than on the design of the facility
Exactly. The MUP randya is thinking of is crowded with peds and bicyclists of a variety of skill levels. A lot of newer bike commuters use it to gain confidence in their balance and control of their bikes before they venture out onto busier roads. During the morning and evening rush hours, it's incredibly rude and potentially dangerous to be going 20+ MPH in that melee.

I have no opinion about what's going on in Calgary, as I have never been there to see their MUPs and whatever congestion issues there might be. It wouldn't break my heart to see some speeding tickets handed out here when our riverfront MUP is totally congested.

Another reason to hate bike paths. I avoid bike paths at all costs except at night when no one around here ever uses them. If you own a mountain bike, find some actual real trails in your area where you won't come across strollers and old bags.

Around here, bike paths are great. Heading to do Santa Ana River Trail tomorrow morning - 60 miles (about) and should average 18-20mph. Pretty much everyone well behaved, and even though a good amount of traffic, I haven't seen much of any incidents. . . so it can be done. :D

I saw it right off. This is the sort of thing that happens when cyclists abuse the pedestrians in the same manner that cagers abuse cyclists. Next they will place "Share the MUT" signs along the trails. Then there will be a mandatory 3' passing law, followed by installation of pedestrian boxes at all the intersections. The Vehicular Walking movement will develop and they will put them in a special section in Pedestrian Forums. Xtracycles will become the pedestrian's hated SUV and, of course, the BigDummies will be the Hummer. The more progressive thinking cyclists will start riding unicycles, which are the Priuses of cycling world, to assuage their guilt.

Eventually a pedestrian version of Critical Mass will develop and they will "cork" the bike trails that last Friday of every month. Every now and then a frustrated cyclist will try to run through the pedestrians, causing a big ruckus which will be posted on uTube. Nancy Sinatra and Lawton Childs, the former Governor of the State of Florida, will be heralded as champions of the early pedestrian movement.

Southern Baptist televangelists will decry the pedestrian movement with the mantra, "If God had wanted people to walk, he would have given them feet!" Hollywood celebrities will fly in on the jets to appear on television talk shows where they will claim that they personally have walked a couple of times and think that everyone should try it. NGO's will study the success of the Dutch walking system and recommend various new legislation.

$50.00 is a relatively small fine, consider yourself lucky.

I really dislike cyclists that use the MUP as their personal time trials course, it's rude and inappropriate to ride so fast there; you should use the road if you want to put the hammer down.

+100. If you don't like the rules on the path use the road. It's called sharing...kind of opposite of being selfish and inconsiderate of others.

Wow, 20kph is like cycling into the wind uphill slow, that's painful. I'm all for courtesy on the mup, are they going to be ticketing pedestrians who walk 2 or more abreast?

I think it depends on the number of users, more so than on the design of the facility

I donno, I've never seen a well designed MUP with too many users.

On the flip side, one user can be too much for a poorly designed path.

Thanks for the comments, guys.

The trails in Calgary are pretty good in general. There are many long, straight stretches with perfect visibility. Also from my experience so far they are generally functionally empty (apart from weekend afternoons), with joggers and cyclists being by far the major users.

I think what many here may be missing is that it is only cyclists who are being targeted in this campaign, nobody else. I have seen more "mistakes" made by the other types of trail user than I have by cyclists, who seem to be able to hold their lines pretty well given the good conditions. In particular I have had problems with dog owners who don't attempt to control their animals, and parents of little children who do the same (and yes, I slow significantly passing children and dogs for this reason).

one credit I do give to my local council is they tried to pass a by-law making dog owners liable for their dogs and enforce the leash by-law.

Of course, it never passed. Too many dog owners complained. So it's a cyclists fault even if it is a pedestrians or dogs fault.

I have been wrong before, but it seems to me Canadians are a pretty reasonable bunch. Perhaps the 20 kph limit will be enforced with appropriate discretion.

I saw it right off. This is the sort of thing that happens when cyclists abuse the pedestrians in the same manner that cagers abuse cyclists. Next they will place "Share the MUT" signs along the trails. Then there will be a mandatory 3' passing law, followed by installation of pedestrian boxes at all the intersections. The Vehicular Walking movement will develop and they will put them in a special section in Pedestrian Forums. Xtracycles will become the pedestrian's hated SUV and, of course, the BigDummies will be the Hummer. The more progressive thinking cyclists will start riding unicycles, which are the Priuses of cycling world, to assuage their guilt.

Eventually a pedestrian version of Critical Mass will develop and they will "cork" the bike trails that last Friday of every month. Every now and then a frustrated cyclist will try to run through the pedestrians, causing a big ruckus which will be posted on uTube. Nancy Sinatra and Lawton Childs, the former Governor of the State of Florida, will be heralded as champions of the early pedestrian movement.

Southern Baptist televangelists will decry the pedestrian movement with the mantra, "If God had wanted people to walk, he would have given them feet!" Hollywood celebrities will fly in on the jets to appear on television talk shows where they will claim that they personally have walked a couple of times and think that everyone should try it. NGO's will study the success of the Dutch walking system and recommend various new legislation.

This was awesome. You're my hero.

I have been wrong before, but it seems to me Canadians are a pretty reasonable bunch. Perhaps the 20 kph limit will be enforced with appropriate discretion.

LOL - glad to know we're reasonable:)
There are many reasonable Canadians, and a few unreasonable ones, too.

As far as 20 km/h on Calgary trails - there are some spots/times where 20 km/h is pretty dangerous on the trails. Downtown around rush hours or noon (Jogger hell), and you're putting someone's life in your hands if you do 30 along the south side of the bow trail when it winds through the cottonwoods.

That being said - I used to regularly commute home along the north side trail in December, in the dark, on ice, averaging over 20 km/h. You just need to slow down for curves, ice patches, and pedestrians - when you've got a straightaway with dry pavement and good visibility, there's no reason why you can't do 30 km/h or more.

The problem is that they have a fixed limit, which makes no reference to sightlines, road conditions, and so on.

I hope that the police are ticketing people going over 20 around blind curves, etc. If so, I have no problem with the campaign - the trail in central calgary is really busy at certain times, and I get annoyed by those who refuse to slow down for hazards - on bikes or in cars.

If they nab people who are going 20 around Parkdale where there are good sightlines and a separate path for peds and cyclists - that's harassment. They should actually raise the limit there to 30 or 40 if they want to enforce limits.