Training & Nutrition - maltodextrin

I'm thinking about trying to mix my own sports drink using maltodextrin. I was wondering if any of you have done this. If so, what did you mix with it for taste. I was thinking about using some Hammer gel or some other gel Or should I just keep buying the Hammer products? Thanks.

I make my own recovery stuff. I use soy flour, wheat gluten, sea salt, that sort of stuff. I can get alot of specialty glutens and things from some of the Amish stores out in the country. People use them for baking.

I can't find a place to buy maltodextrin. Where are you getting yours from?

i buy maltodextrin powder from cheapvitamins.com (no personal affiliation with them) and use it to make gels, not sure how it would do for a sports drink.

I make my own recovery stuff. I use soy flour, wheat gluten, sea salt, that sort of stuff. I can get alot of specialty glutens and things from some of the Amish stores out in the country. People use them for baking.

I can't find a place to buy maltodextrin. Where are you getting yours from?

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=880
That's a good price. I was also thinking about mixing it with Whey, but I don't know yet.

i added maltodextrin to my courierade drink.... http://messengerofdoom.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/cheapozade-plus-aka-slightly-more-expensiveozade-courierade/

just mix it with orange juice and water; easy and cheap.

Thanks for the tip, but I think I pretty much have it figured out. I was going to go with 1 scoop of maltodextrin, half scoop of Whey and half a scoop of Dextrose. I'll see what happens. Thanks for the reply.

Waxy maize starch is the way to go.

trueprotein.com

I get maltodextrin from the local wine-making establishment.

Rowan gave me a good recipe for a maltodextrin based energy drink, and I've made it a few times, although I think I would make a few small adjustments to it if I were to make it again.

i was going to suggest trueprotien.com for custom mixes, but i see the link has already been provided. that place is so cool. you can mix your own stuff based on %, and you can even mix it in 'plain' flavor, purchasing the flavor add-in separate. works out nice when you dont want a whole 1/3/5# jug of something in one flavor!

Waxy maize starch is the way to go.

trueprotein.com

Do you mix anything with Waxy maize. I could cancel my order and get this and try it out.

Maltodextrin is the best, I think. It's the base ingredient in many sports drinks. I get it from my local homebrew store, for about $1/lb. for a 50# bag. I use 1-2 bags/year. Used to be $.50/lb before this ethanol business. It's a polysaccharide, meaning basically a long-chain sugar. It has a higher glycemic index than sucrose, about 130 I think. It also has a lower osmolality than simple sugars, which means it moves across the stomach wall faster. That's what you want - something that gets into your bloodstream really fast.

I mix it 7:1 by weight with flavored soy protein, Optimum Nutrition brand. That's the recipe that Hammer uses for its Sustained Energy, but without the flavor. You can use whey protein, also. I put a pint of this powder mix in a 24-32 oz. water bottle, add water, and shake. You'll need one bottle like that per 3 hours of riding. And that's all you need, though some solid food is nice once in a while. The advantage of this stuff, besides that it works, is that it's cheap.

Are there any recipe's for a drink like Endurox R4 (or similar recovery drink)? I'm sure with maltodextrin, soy protein, some other sugars, and L-glutamine I could make up something pretty similar. I'm mostly interested in the l-glutamine aspect of it.

I just bought a 50LBS. bag. I wasted about 3 pounds right of the bat testing recipes. I have one I like that should be good, so I made about ten small bags using a FoodSaver vacuum bagger so I can carry in jersey pockets. Recipe:1/2 cup maltodextrin, one scoop BCAA fruit punch(branch chain amino acids), 1/2 tsp. kosher salt, 1/2 tsp. sodium bicarbonate(baking soda).

The fruit punch BCAA gives the flavor and amino acids. The salt and baking soda are electrolytes. I'm still looking for a way to get potassium in safely and from what I understand the KoolAid powder packs(the kind you add the sugar too/ No sugar) have potassium and could flavor the drink also.

I only use this stuff on rides longer then 2 hours. Anything shorter just gets BCAAs, water, and 1/4tsp. salt.

Thanks for the replies and recipes everybody. It looks like I'll have to try a few things myself to get the flavor that I'm happy with, but you all agree on what most of the mixes should be, thanks again.

Thanks for the tip, but I think I pretty much have it figured out. I was going to go with 1 scoop of maltodextrin, half scoop of Whey and half a scoop of Dextrose. I'll see what happens. Thanks for the reply.

Why are you adding dextrose/glucose to maltodextrin? - TF

Waxy maize starch is the way to go.

trueprotein.com

Any data on their claim of faster absorption? BTW, maltodextrin also is absorbed in the small intestine. - TF

I'm still looking for a way to get potassium in safely and from what I understand the KoolAid powder packs(the kind you add the sugar too/ No sugar) have potassium and could flavor the drink also.



Potassium can be found in either 'lite salt' or 'no salt'. You can find these in the grocery store next to/near to regular salt. Lite salt is approx 1/2 sodium chloride and 1/2 potassium chloride. No salt is 100% potassium chloride. 1/4 tsp of Lite salt provides approximately 340mg of potassium and 290mg of sodium.

Maltodextrin is the best, I think. It's the base ingredient in many sports drinks. I get it from my local homebrew store, for about $1/lb. for a 50# bag. I use 1-2 bags/year. Used to be $.50/lb before this ethanol business. It's a polysaccharide, meaning basically a long-chain sugar. It has a higher glycemic index than sucrose, about 130 I think. It also has a lower osmolality than simple sugars, which means it moves across the stomach wall faster. That's what you want - something that gets into your bloodstream really fast.

I mix it 7:1 by weight with flavored soy protein, Optimum Nutrition brand. That's the recipe that Hammer uses for its Sustained Energy, but without the flavor. You can use whey protein, also. I put a pint of this powder mix in a 24-32 oz. water bottle, add water, and shake. You'll need one bottle like that per 3 hours of riding. And that's all you need, though some solid food is nice once in a while. The advantage of this stuff, besides that it works, is that it's cheap.

"It has a higher glycemic index than sucrose, about 130 I think." Source?

The glucose (maltodextrin is a glucose polymer) is absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach. The claimed reason that the low osmolality MAY increase the abdorption rate of maltodexrtin is that there are osmolality sensors in the small intestine block the stomach emptying into the small intestine.

TF

I just bought a 50LBS. bag. I wasted about 3 pounds right of the bat testing recipes. I have one I like that should be good, so I made about ten small bags using a FoodSaver vacuum bagger so I can carry in jersey pockets. Recipe:1/2 cup maltodextrin, one scoop BCAA fruit punch(branch chain amino acids), 1/2 tsp. kosher salt, 1/2 tsp. sodium bicarbonate(baking soda).

The fruit punch BCAA gives the flavor and amino acids. The salt and baking soda are electrolytes. I'm still looking for a way to get potassium in safely and from what I understand the KoolAid powder packs(the kind you add the sugar too/ No sugar) have potassium and could flavor the drink also.

I only use this stuff on rides longer then 2 hours. Anything shorter just gets BCAAs, water, and 1/4tsp. salt.

Why use both 'salt' (sodium chloride) and sodium bicarbinate? Is there a need for carbonate? Lite salt (contains potasium chloride) is a good souce for potasium. - TF

Why are you adding dextrose/glucose to maltodextrin? - TF

I really don't know what I'm doing yet, but I thought the dextrose with make it taste a little better. I'll take any suggestions you have, to figure this out. Do you think I should just add some Whey, to either the maltodextrin or the waxy maize? Thanks for any help.

I really don't know what I'm doing yet, but I thought the dextrose with make it taste a little better. I'll take any suggestions you have, to figure this out. Do you think I should just add some Whey, to either the maltodextrin or the waxy maize? Thanks for any help.

First, I doubt that any protein is necessary during the ride, but if you want to add a little, it can't hurt.

Dextrose/glucose has very little taste.

Thinking out loud:

Recent studies have indicated that a mixture of simple sugars may significantly increase the carb transfer rate into the blood stream. The tests used glucose and fructose, but since maltodextrin breaks down into glucose, it may work just as well or better?? This series of studies (Warning: Marketing article from Powerbar) study indicates that a 1:1 mixture of glucose:fructose at a rate of ~100 gr/hr may be optimal.

http://www.powerbar.com/NutritionResource/ToolsArticles/ArticlesDetails.aspx?id=2186B868-C2D0-4FB6-8D22-1092DE98480D

I believe the Gatorade (again: beware of marketing, but I know of nothing better to use) studies suggested the optimal single sugar concentration was about 6%.

The answer may be to make up about a 6% solution of 1:1 maltodextrin:fructose and consume it at a rate that that gives about 100 gr of sugar per hour. If I calculated right, that would be about 2 big water bottles per hour - don't know if I could do that. The Powerbar article also mentioned that a higher concentration may be viable with a sugar mixture, so I would try something like a 10% solution at a rate of 1 bottle per 45 minutes. (40 oz/hr= ~1.1liters/hr which would deliver about 110 gr/hr CHO) Good place to start, anyway.

Also consider the electrolyte requirements. Salt and Lite Salt in the drink will provide sodium, potassium and chloride. A couple of pre-ride calcium tabs and a magnesium oxide tab should give you what you need. Look through the articles by Monique Ryan (sp?) in VeloNews.com for recommendations on electrolyte needs.

TF

I believe 'sea salt' is a good salt as it contains trace electrolyte elements. It's also free to make if you live anywhere near a body of salt water.

I usually use honey or agave as my sweeteners for my drinks and an electrolyte concentrate called e-lyte sport containing potassium, sodium, magnesium, chloride, phosphate, bicarbonate and sulfate diluted in water.

"In physiology, the primary ions of electrolytes are sodium (Na+), potassium (K+), calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), chloride (Cl−), phosphate (PO43−), and hydrogen carbonate (HCO3−)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte#Physiological_importance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sea_salt-e_hg.png

Why use both 'salt' (sodium chloride) and sodium bicarbinate? Is there a need for carbonate? Lite salt (contains potasium chloride) is a good souce for potasium. - TF

SODIUM BICARBONATE (baking soda) (++)

A chemical compound available as baking soda or Alka Seltzer, sodium bicarbonate buffers lactic acid allowing longer bouts of near maximal cycling for short, high intensity sprint events lasting 1 to 7 minutes (400m. or 800m. sprints, time trials), but of minimal additional effect compared to the body's natural buffering capacity for lactic acid during very short intense exercise lasting less than 30 seconds or sustained endurance events. Generally, studies that used doses of 300 mg/kg body wt. found an ergogenic effect, while those using less than 200 mg/kg showed no effect.

An early study at Iowa State University demonstrated some improvement in sprinting ability after taking 2 tablespoons of baking soda immediately prior to the event. However, diarrhea and stomach upset were reported, and it appeared to be beneficial only in very short event such as the 4000 meter pursuit. Another demonstrated an increase in average power output on a cycle ergometer during repeated 10 second sprints. A third study at the University of Washington has failed to demonstrate any improvement in a series of one minute intervals at 95% VO2 max. in female cyclists.

Sodium bicarbonate should be considered of probable benefit in very specific circumstances but has certain drawbacks which may outweigh these advantages. (See also Citrate)

thanks for the tip on where to find maltodextrin. Homebrew supplies are easy to find around here.

"It has a higher glycemic index than sucrose, about 130 I think." Source?
<snip>Glycemic index for a food depends on the scale that's used. This scale shows both white bread and sucrose used as a base value (100):
http://www.bodyforlife2.com/glycemic.htm
You'll see the glycemic index for maltodextrin quoted as anywhere from 105-150, depending on the researcher and the scale that is used.

First, I doubt that any protein is necessary during the ride, but if you want to add a little, it can't hurt.

Dextrose/glucose has very little taste.

Thinking out loud:

Recent studies have indicated that a mixture of simple sugars may significantly increase the carb transfer rate into the blood stream. The tests used glucose and fructose, but since maltodextrin breaks down into glucose, it may work just as well or better?? This series of studies (Warning: Marketing article from Powerbar) study indicates that a 1:1 mixture of glucose:fructose at a rate of ~100 gr/hr may be optimal.

http://www.powerbar.com/NutritionResource/ToolsArticles/ArticlesDetails.aspx?id=2186B868-C2D0-4FB6-8D22-1092DE98480D

I believe the Gatorade (again: beware of marketing, but I know of nothing better to use) studies suggested the optimal single sugar concentration was about 6%.

The answer may be to make up about a 6% solution of 1:1 maltodextrin:fructose and consume it at a rate that that gives about 100 gr of sugar per hour. If I calculated right, that would be about 2 big water bottles per hour - don't know if I could do that. The Powerbar article also mentioned that a higher concentration may be viable with a sugar mixture, so I would try something like a 10% solution at a rate of 1 bottle per 45 minutes. (40 oz/hr= ~1.1liters/hr which would deliver about 110 gr/hr CHO) Good place to start, anyway.

Also consider the electrolyte requirements. Salt and Lite Salt in the drink will provide sodium, potassium and chloride. A couple of pre-ride calcium tabs and a magnesium oxide tab should give you what you need. Look through the articles by Monique Ryan (sp?) in VeloNews.com for recommendations on electrolyte needs.

TFThe protein is only necessary for long rides. Working out the grams of protein supplied over, say a double century for the 7:1 recipe I suggest - - say 12 hours = 3000 calories consumed, maximum = about 107g of protein. So that's a reasonable amount to consume over 12 hours of exercise and resting.

Some studies have shown a longer time to exhaustion for a combination of carbs and protein, but there are also studies that show no such thing - over the short term. Long ride studies don't seem to be done at all as they are too difficult to control.

Some studies show a slightly higher uptake using a combination of maltodextrin and fructose. But the only real judge is your own stomach. When you're climbing a pass in 90°+ conditions, it'll have something to say about it. Experiment, experiment, experiment.

I've found the best thing for me is to have a 750 cal. bottle of malto mix and a bottle of plain water. If I mix it stronger, I get stomach troubles. Mixed weaker means stopping too often to mix it. Of course, if you have a support vehicle, that sort of thing is moot.

Never trap yourself in a condition where you only have a sports drink. If your stomach can't handle it due to stress, you're toast. For the same reason, I prefer not to mix in my electrolytes. I may want more or less than is contained in the drink.

Do not attempt to "replace" lost sodium or other electrolytes. Consume only enough electrolytes to stimulate thirst for that 1 bottle/hour. If your stomach is "sloshy" or bloated, you need more electrolytes, or have eaten too much.

It's very difficult, if not impossible, for most riders to average getting more than one 24 oz. bottle of fluid/hour into their digestive tract. Consuming "~100g per hour" of carbos = ~400 cal/hour = getting sick to your stomach after 3 hours. Try it if you don't believe me. 275 cal/hour is my personal max. RAAM riders may do better than that. Mortals beware. On a hot 18 hour mountain ride, I consumed 2250 cal. of malto mix, plus relatively small amounts of solid food, maybe another 1000 calories. I was not hungry and was still relatively fast at the finish. However, single endurance rides like that may show fewer cal/hr. consumed than for a fast century, due to the lower percentage of fat metabolized at higher heart rates.

My advice is for long rides only. For short recreational rides (under 3 hours) just about anything will work, from not drinking or eating anything, to any sort of food or drink you can imagine. Hence the variety of advice one sees.

Racing is another subject completely. There the best tactic seem to be to drink only a sports drink that has been found by experiment to be effective and tolerated. But most races are so short that you don't get into the complications that you will find in long rides.

after reading this forum, i decided to buy this
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=485
what do yous think about mixing it?
im gonna try 1/4 a cup of it with salt lite and test it out. i should try fiddling around with whey protein and baking soda too. i think i lose a lot of electrolites because after i bike and i try to play table tennis, i get really dizzy. maybe no salts and low blood pressure.
any inputs?
i remmeber 1/2 cup is 47 carbs so 1/4 would be around 23 carbs and thats the amount heed hammer has. ill give it a shot. maybe add some gatoraid mix in it for flavor?

also when do you guys drink this, during the ride? what about it being used pre and post drinks?
i currently do chocolate milk with protein but it gives me the runs. does that mean im just losing water or nutriton too?

New recipe: 1/2 cup Qd500 maltodextrin, 1/8tsp. salt lite(thanks for the tip guys), 1/3 tsp. kosher salt, 1 crushed fruit punch Rolaid(magnesium, calcium, and bicarbonate). I used this recipe for a century this weekend and it was the best recipe.
The Rolaids have bicarbonate in them to help buffer lactic acid along with two elctrolytes. Thay also give a hint of flavor and taste way better than baking soda.

I also mixed in a 1/2 scoop BCAA(fruit punch) in this same recipe that tasted really good for some amino acids in the middle of the ride.

I reduced salt in this recipe and swapped Rolaids instead of baking soda compared to the previous recipe.