Mountain Biking - Which material in an ultra light 29er HT?

If you really wanted a super light 29er hardtail; would you prefer CF or Ti?
Both these bikes are 23 lbs; both high end parts; both built for fast XC

How would you compare them? Do you think it is worth the price to get 29er HT this light?

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/bikedoctor/superfly.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t213/bikedoctor/29TiMain.jpg

How about a Kryptonium/carbon/Ti weave? That would be sweet.

My only thought is that if you crash against anything hard such as rocks, CF does not tolerate point loads and will crack while Ti, being a metal, will absorb the load and hopefully spring back.

My only thought is that if you crash against anything hard such as rocks, CF does not tolerate point loads and will crack while Ti, being a metal, will absorb the load and hopefully spring back.

Well...I can tell you from personal experience that the aluminum version of that Motobecane doesn't hold up to a head-on collision with a 1980's rigid steel Raleigh, hehe.

Paper thin, dude...paper thin.

In contrast, I ride with a guy who has an ExCal and has broken 3 frames. Granted, Fisher replaces them...it's just a pain. I broke my Fisher HKEK too. They have a crappy seat tube / head tube jctn. I dunno 'bout the CF though...my experience is with Alu.

Either way. But to note: I'd rather have a strong frame than an ultralight, non durable one. Seriously.

Those GF superfly frames suck hairy monkey nuts. If you look at one in person you can see tons of imperfections in the frame. In stead of using a mold to make one frame they make the rear triangle, top tube, head tube, BB junction, seat tube and down tube all separately. Then they join them together kind of like if you lock your fingers together. then, they get carbon sheets and layer them over the junctions. That's why they are able to make XS frames to XXL frames and make profit.
Every guy that I know that got one had the frame crack with in a month.

Every guy that I know that got one had the frame crack with in a month.

Not that I doubt this at all given my own GF encounters, but how many is this?

Not that I doubt this at all given my own GF encounters, but how many is this?

8 or 9

8 or 9

Wow...you'd think they'd do a recall or something. Talk about losing money in warranty work.

Have the warranty'd frames held up?

IIRC most bike manufacturers don't make one piece carbon frames. Although that does seem like an oddly high number of separate pieces for the Superfly.

Those GF superfly frames suck hairy monkey nuts. If you look at one in person you can see tons of imperfections in the frame. In stead of using a mold to make one frame they make the rear triangle, top tube, head tube, BB junction, seat tube and down tube all separately. Then they join them together kind of like if you lock your fingers together. then, they get carbon sheets and layer them over the junctions. That's why they are able to make XS frames to XXL frames and make profit.
Every guy that I know that got one had the frame crack with in a month.

They don't have imperfections, they're trying to save weight by not putting a cosmetic layer of carbon on the top. If you were to look at any carbon frame without the top layer that's what they would look like. And I haven't heard of any breaking, and our store has sold at least a dozen.

EDIT: and he makes it sound way more complicated than it is, it's really just a lugged carbon frame.

^ I haven't heard of any superfly frame failures either and I know 4 people who have them.

are they all breaking in the same place?

I woulod go Ti all the way simply for the longevity of the frame. Carbon fiber will eventually break.....that is a guarantee

Offer both. And yes it's worth a good price for a light 29er.

I've heard of HiFi failures, but nothing about the Superfys breaking. The HiFis were aluminum. It's not the material so much as what you do with it.

Actually, most of the failures I heard of were the CF seatstays breaking.

go with Ti - any frame can break if you abuse it. these lightweight frames will break sooner than a slighly heavier sturdier frame.
If it was my choice I'd get a STEEL 29er from niner or waltworks

They don't have imperfections, they're trying to save weight by not putting a cosmetic layer of carbon on the top. If you were to look at any carbon frame without the top layer that's what they would look like. And I haven't heard of any breaking, and our store has sold at least a dozen.

EDIT: and he makes it sound way more complicated than it is, it's really just a lugged carbon frame.

Its not at the same quality level as the Orbea frames. They use on sold mold which is the reason why you can only get an 18 size frame bc the molds are so expensive. If you haven't heard of any breaking the people aren't riding hard at all. Theres a recall on the frames.

Id prefer the titanium I think. Carbon however is so much more fashionable.


I woulod go Ti all the way simply for the longevity of the frame. Carbon fiber will eventually break.....that is a guarantee

Can't speak for bike frames as I suspect it depends greatly on the frame design and how the rider uses it, but carbon construction in general has shown itself to have an outstanding fatigue resistance. The material's non-homogeneous nature stops the progression of microcracks which lead to fatigue failure. Granted anything can break, but if you keep the loads under the stress limit then carbon will last indefinately (perhaps until the UV breaks down the external epoxy butter coat...)

Now Aluminum on the other hand... that's doomed to failure no matter how minimal the load.

Its not at the same quality level as the Orbea frames. They use on sold mold which is the reason why you can only get an 18 size frame bc the molds are so expensive. If you haven't heard of any breaking the people aren't riding hard at all. Theres a recall on the frames.

Yes, the molds are expensive. I don't know where you're pulling this recall from- I work at a Trek/Fisher dealer (as I've said) and no one at the shop has heard a thing about it. And last, they don't make an 18", but they do happen to have a 15.5", a 17.5", a 19", and a 21".

Yes, the molds are expensive. I don't know where you're pulling this recall from- I work at a Trek/Fisher dealer (as I've said) and no one at the shop has heard a thing about it. And last, they don't make an 18", but they do happen to have a 15.5", a 17.5", a 19", and a 21".

Go to MTBR and look in the 29er forum. I talked to Fisher himself about the frames and he even admitted to having a few bad batches of first production frames have issues with cracking.

Okay. And after those first few bad ones?

Okay. And after those first few bad ones?

Still hearin about cracked frames from time to time. It's a pretty weak way to make a frame though.

It's a pretty weak way to make a frame though.

You have no clue do you?

I would be interested in either one. The ti definetly would win for longevity. A few guys I ride with that have CF mountain bikes are always worried about going down on rocks or bashing the BB, so the the ti would "seem" sturdier to most people. I am currently riding a steel 29" Kona (Explosif, with X9, Bontrager Race wheels, Juicy 7s, and a Reba Race set at 80mm). I prefer its geometry to the Fisher Paragon (Genesis 1) that it replaced. I keep hearing that G2 is alot better. I've done some XC racing on the Kona this year and fared pretty well in the races. If you need a tester, I ride a Large (19") frame. :)

That Gary Fisher thing is no big deal. Cannondale made carbon frames with thermite cores and those things explode after just six months of use. They'll send shrapnel straight through your legs and if you're riding with friends it'll probably kill them as well. C'dale got in to a big lawsuit over it when one of their bikes exploded killing an endangered California Condor. As a result they're no longer allowed to sell carbon fiber bike frames in the state of California.

My only thought is that if you crash against anything hard such as rocks, CF does not tolerate point loads and will crack while Ti, being a metal, will absorb the load and hopefully spring back.

Sometimes Trek/Fisher pushes the boundaries on lightweight frames. However, when they do push it, they warranty it. As long as your under say ... 250#, I would have no qualms about buying a Superfly (if you can get one).

If you really wanted a super light 29er hardtail; would you prefer CF or Ti?
Both these bikes are 23 lbs; both high end parts; both built for fast XC

How would you compare them? Do you think it is worth the price to get 29er HT this light?

Mike, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I think you would find more demand if you started making longer travel bikes. I'm personally looking forward to what you can offer in the FR/Dh market. Maybe in the future?

You have no clue do you?


Agreed. Apparently Colnago, Look, Time, Cannondale and any other manufacturer who makes lugged carbon frames is doing it wrong.

Well, according to this dude.

But he IS from Texas, so he has that going for him.

Agreed. Apparently Colnago, Look, Time, Cannondale and any other manufacturer who makes lugged carbon frames is doing it wrong.

Well, according to this dude.

But he IS from Texas, so he has that going for him.


Yep. My Calfee road bike is built the same way. I wonder why they offer a 25-year warranty, being that it's a "weak" way to build carbon frames... :lol:

Mike, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I think you would find more demand if you started making longer travel bikes. I'm personally looking forward to what you can offer in the FR/Dh market. Maybe in the future?

I with Ben! Give us a 145mm Trail bike. And a beefier 160mm travel.

I with Ben! Give us a 145mm Trail bike. And a beefier 160mm travel.

Quit scruin arownd...

The 2010 Motobecane Drop-ta-flat with 225mm of travel will Rawk all small bldg drops.

Quit scruin arownd...

The 2010 Motobecane Drop-ta-flat with 225mm of travel will Rawk all small bldg drops.

Ha Ha, you told that guy I took his bike, didn't ya?

Yep. My Calfee road bike is built the same way. I wonder why they offer a 25-year warranty, being that it's a "weak" way to build carbon frames... :lol:

just sayin a sold one piece molded frame is stiffer than a lugged frame. Scott does it this way and Orbea.

I don't think you can conclude that one method produces a stiffer frame than the other. There are too many variables. Your response shows how much you truly (don't) know about the subject.

Here's a little literature (http://www.calfeedesign.com/whitepaper9.htm) that may help you understand.