Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Surly hub spins slow

Hi guys, I am hopping back on my singlespeed after riding my roadbike for a couple of months. I notice that my rear singlespeed wheel (surly hub laced to aerohead rim) spins MUCH slower and for a shorter amount of time than my roadbike wheel (a not-nice shimano whr500). Is this normal? I swapped out my crappy freewheel for a White Industries, which fixed a nasty gravely sound, but it didn't help the sticky wheel. These wheels are only 1 1/2 years old.

Are you saying there is more rolling resistance with that wheelset? Somehow the same amount of pedaling force doesnt get you as far or something while coasting? Are the tires low? Are they completely different tread? How do they spin with the bike up in a stand or just upside down? Perhaps the grease is too thick and they spin slower and for a shorter time when youre not riding it, just watching it spin free? You gotta explain a bit more...

Most likely you need to adjust your bearings with a pair of cone wrenches. Also make sure there is a little slack in your chain. That should allow your wheel to spin freely. The worst case scenario is that you need new bearings...but those are cheap, so its still not a big deal.

your cones have most likley come out of adjustment. Its an easy fix with some cone wrenches.

What they said. Welcome to the wonderful world of Surly hub ownership!

it could also be that you are used to road hubs with lower resistance road hubs and now you are riding on sealed cartridge bearing hubs which put alot of drag into the mix due to the seals

Honestly, I was wondering if road hubs spin inherently smoother than ss hubs. I typically ride my ss bike much more than my road bike, but have been primarilly on my road bike this summer. I was shocked when I got back on my ss a few weeks ago and seemed to be working a lot harder to achieve the same speeds.
When I pick the ss up and spin the rear wheel, it spins pretty sticky, while my road bike and gf's road bike wheels spin forever. Just the rear wheel. Anyone have pics or links to instructions on how to take apart and adjust Surly hubs? Am I just being crazy, or are they supposed to spin way stickier than road hubs?

haven't tried surlys but my formulas are nothing compared to my DA's

Out of curiosity, if I wanted to changed the bearing cartridge in my IRO hubs to Phil Wood Bearings (or any other), what size cartridge would I need to buy?

Any help appreciated, and thanks.

Honestly, I was wondering if road hubs spin inherently smoother than ss hubs. I typically ride my ss bike much more than my road bike, but have been primarilly on my road bike this summer. I was shocked when I got back on my ss a few weeks ago and seemed to be working a lot harder to achieve the same speeds.
When I pick the ss up and spin the rear wheel, it spins pretty sticky, while my road bike and gf's road bike wheels spin forever. Just the rear wheel. Anyone have pics or links to instructions on how to take apart and adjust Surly hubs? Am I just being crazy, or are they supposed to spin way stickier than road hubs?

The difference in hub drag that you feel or see when spinning your wheel with your hand has little if anything to do with your inability to achieve the same speed on your ss. Small variations in hub/bearing/axle drag hubs have almost no relevance to efficiency, at least not enough to really "feel" the difference. If your ss feels more sluggish it probably has more to do with gearing, tires, aerodynamics, other mechanical factors as well as perceived effort/speed (placebo). Still thats no reason to have improperly adjusted bearings. All you need are a couple of cheap cone wrenches. Holding both the locknut and cone, loosen the locknut, then loosen or tighten the cone,so the bearings are smooth but the axle lacks play. Then retighten the locknut.

Thanks guys. Do most shops sell cone wrenches?

I would be wary of a shop that didn't sell cone wrenches.

Make sure you get the right size.

it's 15/17 with the original locknut, I believe.

Lucky for you, if your bearings are indeed toast, new ones are dirt cheap. I don't know the size for Surly but to overhaul a Formula with Phil Woods you'd be out $10/hub, $8 for Enduro (good stuff too).

Edit: to overhaul I follow more or less the method described here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=347132. It is a piece of cake and requires only simple tools, not a bearing press.

I thought cartridge bearings could not be adjusted.
How are you supposed to adjust them?

Adjust? You can adjust the "cones" on cartridge bearings. You just try to get a sweet spot where there's no play in the axle but the bearings aren't crunched.

I hate the stupid surly locknut that doesn't have a complete flat and is 17mm.

Look. Surly hubs are a risky buy. Some will work fine, some will not.

If you want spin, and you are into taking good care of your wheels and you don't have ride in the rain much (or ever! Welcome to SoCal!), then buy hubs without cartridge bearings. They spin up so much faster and, no matter what some road riders here may say, they do make a difference in the quality of the ride on the road.

By the way. After two weeks of riding and after having my bike shop adjust the cones, the bearings were shot. Somehow the cones tightened over a few days of riding, I noticed it, fixed it ASAP, and presto! the bearings were gritty. I will never waste my money on those hubs again. Its Formula for cartridge, or no cartridge at all.

i had my wheels trued and had the hubs adjusted a bit too but other than that the surly hubs are holding up great...i am thinking they may need to be serviced before the winter season begins

are the surly hubs cartridge?

Look. Surly hubs are a risky buy. Some will work fine, some will not.

If you want spin, and you are into taking good care of your wheels and you don't have ride in the rain much (or ever! Welcome to SoCal!), then buy hubs without cartridge bearings. They spin up so much faster and, no matter what some road riders here may say, they do make a difference in the quality of the ride on the road.

Keep in mind that Shimano still does loose ball for the road, so a lot of roadies ride it.

Look. Surly hubs are a risky buy. Some will work fine, some will not.

If you want spin, and you are into taking good care of your wheels and you don't have ride in the rain much (or ever! Welcome to SoCal!), then buy hubs without cartridge bearings. They spin up so much faster and, no matter what some road riders here may say, they do make a difference in the quality of the ride on the road.

Please clarify what you mean by "quality". While I agree that surly hub bearings aren't the best, such blanket generalizations about cartridge versus looseball are totally baseless. Looseball will not suddenly make you faster or smooth out your ride compared to a good set of sealed bearings. Arguing that the additional drag (if any) introduced by a set of properly adjusted catrtidge bearings will slow you down or decrease ride quality is like trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. The vast majority of high end hubs are not looseball. With the exception of the track/fg subculture (which is irrationally resistant to innovation) no one is even debating this issue. As Andre noted, (some, but not all) Shimano hubs are loose ball, but compared to most modern high end hubs, Shimano road hubs are super old-school in design. How many pro cyclists are riding Shimano or other looseball hubs?...practically no one.

Please clarify what you mean by "quality". While I agree that surly hub bearings aren't the best, such blanket generalizations about cartridge versus looseball are totally baseless. Looseball will not suddenly make you faster or smooth out your ride compared to a good set of sealed bearings. Arguing that the additional drag (if any) introduced by a set of properly adjusted catrtidge bearings will slow you down or decrease ride quality is like trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. The vast majority of high end hubs are not looseball. With the exception of the track/fg subculture (which is irrationally resistant to innovation) no one is even debating this issue. As Andre noted, (some, but not all) Shimano hubs are loose ball, but compared to most modern high end hubs, Shimano road hubs are super old-school in design. How many pro cyclists are riding Shimano or other looseball hubs?...practically no one.

I don't knwo about pro cyclists. I just know that when I slap on a pair of Formula cartridge bearing hubs, my speed maintenance and my ability to pick up a quick burst on a high-cadence sprint is somewhat lower than when I ride my Suntour Superbe pros. the difference is not huge, its not like moving from cheap flimsy cranks to Sugio 75s or something, but there is a difference. Now, maybe if I really shelled out the cash for a nice set of cartridge bearing hubs -- Phils for example -- which I may have to do if I move to a rainy climate, then there may be no difference. But I have no experience with these as of yet. As of now, I'd rather shell out a little less for the Dura Ace hubs which I know will consistently run smooth than pay more for the Phils which may give the same performance.
But, of course, one should always take all my ramblings in this forum with a large chunk of IMO salt.

I don't knwo about pro cyclists. I just know that when I slap on a pair of Formula cartridge bearing hubs, my speed maintenance and my ability to pick up a quick burst on a high-cadence sprint is somewhat lower than when I ride my Suntour Superbe pros. the difference is not huge, its not like moving from cheap flimsy cranks to Sugio 75s or something, but there is a difference. Now, maybe if I really shelled out the cash for a nice set of cartridge bearing hubs -- Phils for example -- which I may have to do if I move to a rainy climate, then there may be no difference. But I have no experience with these as of yet. As of now, I'd rather shell out a little less for the Dura Ace hubs which I know will consistently run smooth than pay more for the Phils which may give the same performance.
But, of course, one should always take all my ramblings in this forum with a large chunk of IMO salt.

One doesn't normally "slap on a pair of hubs". I don't know if you literally meant that, but changing hubs, usually involves many other factors such as a different wheelset, possibly different tires, different gearing, or in some cases, a different bike altogether, or even riding in a completely different area.

Unless your hubs were severely maladjusted, I doubt they were slowing you down to a degree that you could really feel and attribute to the hubs themselves.

Consider this:
My track bike has a formula rear hub with the original bearings. If I grab the axle with my fingers, it certainly feels slightly more draggy that my high end white industries road hub (which is insanely smooth-smoother than any looseball hub I've ever owned). The tires rims and spokes of these two wheels are the same, so that eliminates several other variables. If I remove the chain (so that the drivetrain of the track bike is disengaged) and spin the wheels with my hand the formula hub wheel stops just barely before the white industries hub wheel.

In the above experiment, only the the rotating momentum of the <1kg wheel was counteracting the drag of the bearings. Now consider that when you are actually on the bike, you have your own bodily mass, in addition to the mass of the bike, and the rotating momentum of the wheel itself counteracting the tiny differences in drag between the two hubs. The real world effect of slight variations in drag would be exceedingly miniscule if even measurable. Other factors, particularly aerodynamics, are much more significant.

One doesn't normally "slap on a pair of hubs". I don't know if you literally meant that, but changing hubs, usually involves many other factors such as a different wheelset, possibly different tires, different gearing, or in some cases, a different bike altogether, or even riding in a completely different area.

Unless your hubs were severely maladjusted, I doubt they were slowing you down to a degree that you could really feel and attribute to the hubs themselves.

Consider this:
My track bike has a formula rear hub with the original bearings. If I grab the axle with my fingers, it certainly feels slightly more draggy that my high end white industries road hub (which is insanely smooth-smoother than any looseball hub I've ever owned). The tires rims and spokes of these two wheels are the same, so that eliminates several other variables. If I remove the chain (so that the drivetrain of the track bike is disengaged) and spin the wheels with my hand the formula hub wheel stops just barely before the white industries hub wheel.

In the above experiment, only the the rotating momentum of the <1kg wheel was counteracting the drag of the bearings. Now consider that when you are actually on the bike, you have your own bodily mass, in addition to the mass of the bike, and the rotating momentum of the wheel itself counteracting the tiny differences in drag between the two hubs. The real world effect of slight variations in drag would be exceedingly miniscule if even measurable. Other factors, particularly aerodynamics, are much more significant.

Da*n dude. Do you work for Mythbusters or something? I really like you, Mihlbach. Your name sounds Germanic and you don't accept what you think is sh*t litely.

When I "slap on hubs" I slap them on w/ wheels attached too. :D.

The Surly wheelset I ran w/ the same gearing: 46:17. A good gear for me to practice high cadence acceleration. But the Surly wheelset was clincher, and I ran a clincher tire on it. The Suntour set has tubulars. The rims on the Suntour set are Araya Aero2. The rims on the Surly were just what comes wiht the complete bike. Everything else was the same. Perhaps the rims made a huge difference. I wouldn't doubt it.


You say that your white industries hub is smoother than any loose-ball. That is one thing, and it may be true. But, as I think that your test demonstrates, smoothness -- a quality of the feel of the wheel as it spins -- is not strictly proportional to efficiency. The issue that I claim is better with the high quality loose balls is that it has better efficiency.

So, have you run this same test against a high-quality loose-ball hub? It would be interesting to see how Formula and White Industry cartridge bearing hubs measure up to, say, Dura Ace or Campy, etc.

So, have you run this same test against a high-quality loose-ball hub? It would be interesting to see how Formula and White Industry cartridge bearing hubs measure up to, say, Dura Ace or Campy, etc.


I haven't done that, but its not really necessary. Whatever friction difference exists between my WI hub and a DA or Campy hub is much much much smaller than the difference from a formula hub.

I have/had a Surly hub. I went thru three sets of stock bearings and the $6 replacement bearings - they all loosened over a few thousands miles and could not be tightened (there was no sweet spot between binding vs. having lots of side to side play). I finally replaced with $10 PW bearings which I now have over 8k miles on with no issue. They are as tight and smooth as when I first installed them.

Also friction amount under no load is not an indication of friction amount with load. One can make a bearing that spins fast with no load, but becomes harder to turn under. Likewise one can have some friction under no load that does not increase much under load.

Al

With the exception of the track/fg subculture (which is irrationally resistant to innovation)

C'mon Mihlbach, this is a bit unfair. I'm talking strictly about track by the way, not street. Track racing is a niche of a niche - it's such a small percentage of cycling sales that of course companies aren't bending over backwards to make new technologies for track specifically (most stuff is burrowed from road, although historically I guess there's things that originated on the track and drifted over to road/TT tech too). Only NJS is truly resistant to innovation.

C'mon Mihlbach, this is a bit unfair. I'm talking strictly about track by the way, not street. Track racing is a niche of a niche - it's such a small percentage of cycling sales that of course companies aren't bending over backwards to make new technologies for track specifically (most stuff is burrowed from road, although historically I guess there's things that originated on the track and drifted over to road/TT tech too). Only NJS is truly resistant to innovation.

You are basically right, though I don't think I'm being unfair. NJS' resistance to change exerts a strong influence. Certainly more modernized track equipment does exist, but FG enthusiasts generally refuse to embrace it. Serious non-NJS track racing is a rare thing and only a small part of the whole FG scene. In this forum anachronisms such as heavy lugged frames, 36 spokes, unsealed heavy high flange hubs, steel drops, square taper bottom brackets, threaded headsets, negative rise quill stems, and toe clips are the norm. If it wasn't for steep geometry, riser bars, aerospokes, and an absence of brakes, you'd think this was the retro-grouch forum.

Now, maybe if I really shelled out the cash for a nice set of cartridge bearing hubs -- Phils for example -- which I may have to do if I move to a rainy climate, then there may be no difference. But I have no experience with these as of yet.

Bearing cartridges are literally the only moving part in a sealed track hub, so if you swap in some Phil spec'd bearings, you're going to be getting the same performance as you would with a phil hub. Unless your bearing sleeves are encrusted with bubble gum or something.

The Surly propensity to tighten during use really has nothing to do with them being sealed and everything to do with crap design. Oh well, the work well enough if you keep an eye on them.

You are basically right, though I don't think I'm being unfair. NJS' resistance to change exerts a strong influence. Certainly more modernized track equipment does exist, but FG enthusiasts generally refuse to embrace it. Serious non-NJS track racing is a rare thing and only a small part of the whole FG scene. In this forum anachronisms such as heavy lugged frames, 36 spokes, unsealed heavy high flange hubs, steel drops, square taper bottom brackets, threaded headsets, negative rise quill stems, and toe clips are the norm. If it wasn't for steep geometry, riser bars, aerospokes, and an absence of brakes, you'd think this was the retro-grouch forum.

NJS stuff can still be race-worthy for even pro track races though, e.g. Octalink DA cranks, DA/Suntour hubs (laced to Zipps!), Nitto drops. The 36h box tubulars make good training wheelsets/beginning track wheelsets too. At the cat 1/pro level the bikes start to resemble TT bikes with all the carbon.

But you know, one thing I like alot about track is it seems like one of the last disciplines where you can still race on a steel bike if you want, even at cat 3, and not be laughed off the field. Imagine talking an 80's Schwinn Paramount to a cat 3 crit or circuit race...

NJS stuff can still be race-worthy for even pro track races though, e.g. Octalink DA cranks, DA/Suntour hubs (laced to Zipps!), Nitto drops. The 36h box tubulars make good training wheelsets/beginning track wheelsets too. At the cat 1/pro level the bikes start to resemble TT bikes with all the carbon.

But you know, one thing I like alot about track is it seems like one of the last disciplines where you can still race on a steel bike if you want, even at cat 3, and not be laughed off the field. Imagine talking an 80's Schwinn Paramount to a cat 3 crit or circuit race...

I like that too. The slowness of change, the classic look of the bikes and the simplicity of the technology are all things I really like about riding a fixed gear and riding on the track (even though I have not done the latter very much). I do like shredding the road on a nice carbon bike. But there is something very fulfilling about climbing that hill on one gear and (sometimes) passing groups of road riders and hearing them say, "Hey! A single-speed!" :thumb:

I guess that shows that they aren't really experienced riders, but hey!

Wow, Guys. I started this thread. I seriously doubt anyone rocking Surly hubs is racing. I just have a ten mile commute (each way), and just noticed a little more friction than I remembered. Ya'll are damn serious:) I live in Portland, and bikes are mainly transportation over here.

You know how many racers there are in Portland? OBRA has so many people signed up in it.