Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Touring Question

Have a quick question for the tourists of the group. I don't regularily read the tourist forum, and I know there are tour riders here. Maybe this should be a poll?

What kind of stove do you use?
Alcohol (home made)
Alcohol (factory made)
Liquid fuelled (white gas/kerosine/gasoline)
LPG/Propane fuelled

Might like to do some touring next year, and wondering what is best....

Have a quick question for the tourists of the group. I don't regularily read the tourist forum, and I know there are tour riders here. Maybe this should be a poll?

What kind of stove do you use?
Alcohol (home made)
Alcohol (factory made)
Liquid fuelled (white gas/kerosine/gasoline)
LPG/Propane fuelled

Might like to do some touring next year, and wondering what is best....

I have a white gas stove, the MSR Pocket Rocket. It's the only one I've owned, and it's great.

I use a super cheap one. It uses any canned fuel, and can even use twigs and pinecones. ;)

http://www.campingsurvival.com/foldingstove.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/campingsurvival_1895_56746251

It costs around $5 USD, and the fuel costs about $5 or$6 for 4 cans of fuel, either the branded, or Magic Fuel, or Sterno. You can get fuel for it at hardware, Walmart, Grocery and many other stores.

I have a white gas stove, the MSR Pocket Rocket. It's the only one I've owned, and it's great.

Any problems with it? Let me rephrase that, ever want to pitch it over the nearest cliff? I guess the biggest advantage is that white gas is available just about everywhere, I've even seen it at gas stations, particularly in smaller places......

I use a super cheap one. It uses any canned fuel, and can even use twigs and pinecones. ;)

http://www.campingsurvival.com/foldingstove.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/campingsurvival_1895_56746251

It costs around $5 USD, and the fuel costs about $5 or$6 for 4 cans of fuel, either the branded, or Magic Fuel, or Sterno. You can get fuel for it at hardware, Walmart, Grocery and many other stores.

I see that Crappy er Canadian Tire has that one, for CA$11.99 (so much for currency parity, eh?), I'm debating about alcohol or white gas, alcohol stoves are cheaper, some as cheap as $1, not sure about fuel availability though, off the beaten path..... White gas is available just about everywhere....

Ok, I've toured. (and I have pictures to prove it somewhere ;) )

I think there are two essential questions that need to be answered.... (not in any particular order)

1. Where are you riding through, and what's available on that route in the type of fuel?

2. What are you planning to cook/heat up?

To clarify on my tours, they've been down the california coast (sf to mexico, sf to santa barbra, eugene to sf, etc) and for my needs being:

able to have coffee in the am
able to have oatmeal in the am (my first breakfast before finding a diner to actually get a "real" breakfast on the road)
and lastly, the occasional (and I do mean just that) dinner ala ramen noodles at camp at the end of the day (hey, I do eat a bunch on tours, but I still lost weight at the end)

I carried a small propane cylinder with a rather cheesy set top stove adapter. For me it worked fine. Since you're in canada, and am assuming you'll be touring in those neck of the woods, I'd probably opt for something that would take natural fuels (twigs, pine cones, bark, etc.) as at least a secondary fuel source. From what I've read about touring in that area, sources of natural gas, petrol, etc. can be far and few in between.

Remember.... take your camera and make good use of it. You're now on the hook for amazing photos from your tour. :)

Don't the alcohol stoves take forever to boil water? I'm not the most patient person in the world (not even for water), so my vote goes to MSR's Whisperlite. Haven't wanted to throw it over a cliff or at a stranger yet!

Any problems with it? Let me rephrase that, ever want to pitch it over the nearest cliff? I guess the biggest advantage is that white gas is available just about everywhere, I've even seen it at gas stations, particularly in smaller places......

I've got an ancient coleman multi-fuel stove. (I don't take it bike touring, but do take it backpacking.)
I've got one like this (though mine is a different, older, discontinued model):this (http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Exponent-Multi-Fuel-Backpacker-Stove/dp/B0009VC7QK)

What I like about it: it's simple, reasonably reliable. I carry a spare pump kit, a spare generator, neither of which I've ever replaced in the field. I really like the integrated fuel tank; full, it holds enough fuel for a weekend, for one or two. It burns white gas, gasoline, gas with oil (like for a chainsaw or outboard motor, though it will need cleaning) or by changing the generator kerosine or diesel fuel. Works okay in cold weather. easy to light. US walmarts often have parts!

What I don't like about it: it's picky to get level (though they've changed the legs, that might be better) the windscreen isn't terribly good, it's heavy.

I use a super cheap one. It uses any canned fuel, and can even use twigs and pinecones. ;)

http://www.campingsurvival.com/foldingstove.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/campingsurvival_1895_56746251

It costs around $5 USD, and the fuel costs about $5 or$6 for 4 cans of fuel, either the branded, or Magic Fuel, or Sterno. You can get fuel for it at hardware, Walmart, Grocery and many other stores.


You can also make fuel cans for this type of stove. I found it in a Reader's Digest book called Back To Basics. I used to make these things a lot when I was a kid. I wasn't allowed to be in Boy Scouts, bu I read every camping/wilderness book that I could find. I would spend my entire allowance on camping gear.

Anyways......

All you need is an empty cleaned tuna can, some cardboard and some paraffin wax.

Cut the cardboard into a long strip about 1/4" wider than the depth of the tuna can. Coil up the cardboard tightly in the can. Melt the wax and pour it in. These things will burn plenty hot enough to cook on.

I have a white gas stove, the MSR Pocket Rocket. It's the only one I've owned, and it's great.

The MSR Pocket Rocket is an isobutane stove, not white gas. I've got the same stove, and it's fantastic for everything except the following:

High altitude
Extreme cold

Isobutane canisters are horrible in either of those two conditions, and that's where you want a white gas stove (MSR Whisperlite, XGK, Dragonfly); anything that comes with an external liquid fuel tank that needs pump pressurizing.

Now, the benefit to an isobutane stove is that they're easy to get lit, they burn pretty well in anything up to a moderate wind, and they're very lightweight. The drawback is that you can't use a heat shield because your flame is directly on top of the fuel canister. Isobutane is pretty cheap, and you can find it at camping stores and even Target and X-marts.
The benefit to white gas is that you can buy it at pretty much anyplace in the world, many white gas stoves are multi-fuel (kerosene and unleaded gasoline too.) You can use a heat shield because your fuel source is separate from the flame. But they're kinda a PITA to get lit, what with priming and all. And if you have too much fuel in the priming cup you can make quite a flaming mess of your campsite. You can refill your white gas canisters, but isobutane canisters need to be disposed of/recycled properly.

Ok, I've toured. (and I have pictures to prove it somewhere ;) )

I think there are two essential questions that need to be answered.... (not in any particular order)

1. Where are you riding through, and what's available on that route in the type of fuel?

2. What are you planning to cook/heat up?

To clarify on my tours, they've been down the california coast (sf to mexico, sf to santa barbra, eugene to sf, etc) and for my needs being:

able to have coffee in the am
able to have oatmeal in the am (my first breakfast before finding a diner to actually get a "real" breakfast on the road)
and lastly, the occasional (and I do mean just that) dinner ala ramen noodles at camp at the end of the day (hey, I do eat a bunch on tours, but I still lost weight at the end)

I carried a small propane cylinder with a rather cheesy set top stove adapter. For me it worked fine. Since you're in canada, and am assuming you'll be touring in those neck of the woods, I'd probably opt for something that would take natural fuels (twigs, pine cones, bark, etc.) as at least a secondary fuel source. From what I've read about touring in that area, sources of natural gas, petrol, etc. can be far and few in between.

Remember.... take your camera and make good use of it. You're now on the hook for amazing photos from your tour. :)

Naphtha or white gas is available pretty much everywhere, even some gas stations will have it. I haven't checked availability of fuel for alcohol stoves, but I suspect that anyone that carries naphtha will carry it as well. It depends on where you are though, a Yukon trip probably would not have fuel available everywhere, but generally settlements should have it. Nice thing about cycling, versus hiking is that you typically are on roads between settlements, rather then just trails. I would check on fuel availability before buying a stove though.....

Most tours are likely to be in Southern Ontario (http://maps.google.ca/maps/mm?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.707594,-79.387207&spn=6.812765,13.623047&z=6) possibly upper New York state, but only if they come up with a good ID system for crossing the border, as I do not want to carry a passport. I live in Toronto, which is the middle of the map, and of course the known universe :D

The idea on fuel though, is I don't want to have to carry a large supply, it's dangerous and adds a lot of weight. What I find interesting though is that fuel is sold in 1L and 4L containers, but fuel bottles
hold less, a 1L fuel bottle holds .85L when full. Which means you either need to carry 2 fuel bottles or waste some. Kinda like you can buy 12 hotdogs but buns are sold in packages of 8. Being able to carry 1L or so of fuel and pickup up additional fuel in transit is best.

I don't like propane, for several reasons, it's quite dangerous (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/story.html?id=714340), another is that fuel containers are heavy for their capacity, and the small fuel containers are not refillable or recyclable, and require special disposal. Which means it's easy to end up packing out several cylinders, which I then need to take to a hazardous waste depot. The tank on the barbecue is refillable, why isn't the camp stove tank? Actually I take the BBQ tank to the place, and pay a small fee and they give me a different full one, which means I don't need to dispose of the old tank when it's no longer usable.

The MSR Pocket Rocket is an isobutane stove, not white gas. I've got the same stove, and it's fantastic for everything except the following:

High altitude
Extreme cold

Isobutane canisters are horrible in either of those two conditions, and that's where you want a white gas stove (MSR Whisperlite, XGK, Dragonfly); anything that comes with an external liquid fuel tank that needs pump pressurizing.

Now, the benefit to an isobutane stove is that they're easy to get lit, they burn pretty well in anything up to a moderate wind, and they're very lightweight. The drawback is that you can't use a heat shield because your flame is directly on top of the fuel canister. Isobutane is pretty cheap, and you can find it at camping stores and even Target and X-marts.
The benefit to white gas is that you can buy it at pretty much anyplace in the world, many white gas stoves are multi-fuel (kerosene and unleaded gasoline too.) You can use a heat shield because your fuel source is separate from the flame. But they're kinda a PITA to get lit, what with priming and all. And if you have too much fuel in the priming cup you can make quite a flaming mess of your campsite. You can refill your white gas canisters, but isobutane canisters need to be disposed of/recycled properly.

Thanks, Clifton, for setting me straight. I'm so new, and clueless, about camping I didn't even know what I had!

I had a Coleman Peak1 white gas stove for a long time, and it didn't require priming, but had a higher chance of generator trouble... read as: after ten years, I was out where I couldn't find white gas, and used unleaded before going backpacking, and it gunked up the generator... needed replacing.

MSR's are more "fail-proof" but have more fiddly pieces to them, and need to be primed, and if it's extremely cold may need to be extensively primed.

Isobutane is hard to find if you are really way out in the sticks, but other than that it is nice to be able to throw away the empties, and if you are planning on touring in Europe it is almost definitely your BEST bet, as isobutane's the more common backpacking stove out there.

That being said, since you are bike touring instead of backcountry camping, the need for a stove is dubious, to my mind. If I know that I'm going to be passing a store where I can get an egg and cheese sandwich in a half-hour, I'd rather not bother with the weight, bulk, headache, and time involved in making hot food in camp. It's been a bit since I've toured, but my one abiding realization has been that you really don't need to bother with a stove much of the time, and unless I knew that I was going to be in a really really remote area, I would skip it altogether.

You might not always get the perfect nutrition, but if you can skip carrying food/fuel/stove/pot/utensils/dishes, that's a pretty substantial savings in cargo.

Have a quick question for the tourists of the group. I don't regularily read the tourist forum, and I know there are tour riders here. Maybe this should be a poll?

What kind of stove do you use?
Alcohol (home made)
Alcohol (factory made)
Liquid fuelled (white gas/kerosine/gasoline)
LPG/Propane fuelled

Might like to do some touring next year, and wondering what is best....

I have tried the MSR Whisperlite. White gas. Very messy. The priming procedure coats the outside of the stove with soot. It's also not very controllable. It's either on or off with little control in between. Needless to say, I didn't like that one.

My favorite is a Primus TechnoTrail. It's butane with an igniter built in (that is so very nice:D). Very controllable from simmer to full boil and works well at altitude (about 12500). The only draw back is that it takes canisters that are hard to find in the middle of the US. Not something you'll find at your local sporting goods store, hardware store, HellMart, etc.

My current stove is a Primus Multifuel which allows me to use either butane or white gas without changing jets. It's a little harder to light at altitude but it does a good job with control. A bit heavier than the TechnoTrail too but at least I can cook with it.

Don't the alcohol stoves take forever to boil water? I'm not the most patient person in the world (not even for water), so my vote goes to MSR's Whisperlite. Haven't wanted to throw it over a cliff or at a stranger yet!

Definitely, some stoves are better than others, but no camp stove is going to boil water as fast as your gas range back home. Rather than simply buying a bigger/hotter stove, though, it's worth trying a few simple tricks to make your current stove as efficient as it can be, like using reflectors and windscreens. One of http://hikinghq.net/sgt_stove/wind_screen.html makes a big difference in boiling time, I've found.

(esbit stove with solid fuel tabs, btw...works for me)

Don't the alcohol stoves take forever to boil water? I'm not the most patient person in the world (not even for water), so my vote goes to MSR's Whisperlite. Haven't wanted to throw it over a cliff or at a stranger yet!

From what I have been able to determine, it takes around 3-3½ minutes with a white gas stove, around 6-7 minutes for an alcohol stove. Some white gas stoves are quite a bit slower, and some alcohol stoves are quite a bit faster. Some hiking/camping sites suggest, even if you use a white gas stove to put a soda can stove in your pack, so that if end up somewhere that you can get alcohol, but not white gas, your still able to heat stuff up.

I think the deal is generally the same, light the stove and do something else while it is heating up, What's the old saying, a watched pot never boils...... The time it's tricky is first thing in the morning, so you set up the stove the night before a ½ m outside the tent, with the pot ready to go, in the morning upon waking, reach out, light the stove and then begin the body initialization sequence (takes me about 10 minutes), after which the pot is nicely boiling with any stove, dump it into the coffee pot, and your ready to go....

Lots of factors affect boil times though, the wind screen size and shape, the pot material and condition, different materials transfer heat better, a black pot will boil faster then a shiny one, so scrubbing the soot off a pot in the bush, to get the bottom shiny again, can defeat the purpose.

Of course the third option is propane, actually a mix of isobutane, butane and propane, considering what happened not 4km from my house last Sunday when it looked like someone bombed central North York, I don't think so......

http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/whisperint.asp

I like my whisper light...only use it for backpacking not touring, yet :)

I haven't had any of the problems cyccommute has had except maybe the first time (the whole stove kinda lit on fire, but it is because i didn't fully read the directions). I can prime it fine, but my fiance has trouble so i hope you have big muscles ;) had to stay away from the butane for the altitude/ cold reasons (we backpack in the winter).

I had a Coleman Peak1 white gas stove for a long time, and it didn't require priming, but had a higher chance of generator trouble... read as: after ten years, I was out where I couldn't find white gas, and used unleaded before going backpacking, and it gunked up the generator... needed replacing.

MSR's are more "fail-proof" but have more fiddly pieces to them, and need to be primed, and if it's extremely cold may need to be extensively primed.

Isobutane is hard to find if you are really way out in the sticks, but other than that it is nice to be able to throw away the empties, and if you are planning on touring in Europe it is almost definitely your BEST bet, as isobutane's the more common backpacking stove out there.

That being said, since you are bike touring instead of backcountry camping, the need for a stove is dubious, to my mind. If I know that I'm going to be passing a store where I can get an egg and cheese sandwich in a half-hour, I'd rather not bother with the weight, bulk, headache, and time involved in making hot food in camp. It's been a bit since I've toured, but my one abiding realization has been that you really don't need to bother with a stove much of the time, and unless I knew that I was going to be in a really really remote area, I would skip it altogether.

You might not always get the perfect nutrition, but if you can skip carrying food/fuel/stove/pot/utensils/dishes, that's a pretty substantial savings in cargo.

The biggest problem with butane/propane is that the empties, at least here in Ontario, Canada are considered hazardous waste, and need to be disposed of at a hazardous waste depot, not every city/town/village has one. They can be recycled, but need special handling first, as do metal gas cans. The cans are also very heavy for the amount of energy contained within them, my brother-in-laws 2 burner Coleman camp stove goes through almost one a day, while a single burner should get twice as much, if your on a week long tour, you will end up 3-4 empties weighing down the panniers, for nothing.

Biggest issue, if your fuel tank gets too hot, there is a chance it can BLEVE*, while the BLEVE from a 300g propane cylinder is quite small, it's likely to take out your entire camp site, leaving you, and the campers around you to deal with flaming shrapnel.

BLEVE - Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion, propane is pressurized for storage, the storage tank then cools, effectively reducing the temperature of the gas to below it's boiling point, resulting in a liquid. When you heat the tank, it raises the temperature, at a certain point the propane boils, the expanding vapour then over comes the pressure containment of the tank, and the tank ruptures, as the gas is released any source of heat -- like your stove -- will result in a fireball. The high pressure at low temperature is why propane tanks often are covered in frost, even when it's very hot outside.

Considering the risk of propane, and propane like fuels, I think I will stick with white gas and alcohol.....

I can count 14 single burner stoves from my chair :innocent: (plus a box of home made stoves plus one or two in the garage) If I need a stove 98% of the time I take either a tragia 27 series or a optumus "svea 123 climber" As far as white gas boiling water faster? While it does boil water faster the trangia you light it and put the water on the white gas stove you have to pump it or prime it or both on some stoves in the mean time the alcohol stove (Trangia) has been heating for 2-3 minutes Also the trangia is whisper quite. I have a msr dragon fly , it is one hell of a stove but sounds like a jet engine. by the way I have not toured on a bike but have back packed and camped a lot coming up different things to cook is part of the fun for me.
Roy

I can count 14 single burner stoves from my chair :innocent: (plus a box of home made stoves plus one or two in the garage) If I need a stove 98% of the time I take either a tragia 27 series or a optumus "svea 123 climber" As far as white gas boiling water faster? While it does boil water faster the trangia you light it and put the water on the white gas stove you have to pump it or prime it or both on some stoves in the mean time the alcohol stove (Trangia) has been heating for 2-3 minutes Also the trangia is whisper quite. I have a msr dragon fly , it is one hell of a stove but sounds like a jet engine. by the way I have not toured on a bike but have back packed and camped a lot coming up different things to cook is part of the fun for me.
Roy

I (and I guess a few others) hadn't thought of the prep time needed.

Alcohol, unpack unit, pour in fuel, light, put on pot, wait for boil.
White Gas, unpack unit, connect fuel tank, pump up pressure, prime stove, light, wait for priming flame to go down, put on wind screen, put on pot, wait for boil.

Looks to be about even time wise..... Now for morning, I guess you could do about half the prep the night before.

I'm thinking of making a cat or soda can stove some time this winter, for spring testing, to see how it does, if it works well in April, then it should do well in summer. If it doesn't work, then I can toss it without a major investment......

I (and I guess a few others) hadn't thought of the prep time needed.

Alcohol, unpack unit, pour in fuel, light, put on pot, wait for boil.
White Gas, unpack unit, connect fuel tank, pump up pressure, prime stove, light, wait for priming flame to go down, put on wind screen, put on pot, wait for boil.

Looks to be about even time wise..... Now for morning, I guess you could do about half the prep the night before.

I'm thinking of making a cat or soda can stove some time this winter, for spring testing, to see how it does, if it works well in April, then it should do well in summer. If it doesn't work, then I can toss it without a major investment......
I have made about 50 of the different alcolhol stove most were pepsi can stoves the will boil water (with a good wind screen) unless you are eating strickly dehydrated backpacking food.where you boil water and pour in the pouch, I like a little more stove . this is a the best deal on an alcohol stove I know of If i didn't have the trangia set I would use it (I have one)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ZRW170-1.html
It is a stove, windscreen ,two pans and acohol bottle
I carry the home made stove or a litte brasslite stove in the winter woods walking to make a cup of tea to warm up
Roy

FWIW, I have an MSR XGK that I've used backpacking both in the USA and Africa. On the plus side, it will burn just about anything. I, personally, have used white gas, paraffin, and diesel fuel. Of course, if you put low-grade fuel in it (read: diesel) you'll get a very sooty flame that will blacken your pots... and anything they happen to come in contact with. DAMHKIT. I'd say that all of the MSR stoves are a bit fiddly, but if you practice at home 3-4 times you shouldn't have any trouble. For some reason, I remember the XGK being decidedly easier to prime and light than the WhisperLite it replaced.

There are 2 or 3 problems with the XGK. The first problem is that it's pretty darn expensive for a stove. The second problem is that the stove is loud. Really loud. I'm not kidding when I say it roars like a jet engine! And the final problem is that like all single-valve MSR stoves it only has two settings: hot and off. There's just not a whole lot of adjustability in between. I never found the latter to be much of a problem, but if you're planning to do gourmet cooking you might want to look at the MSR Dragonfly or something with some more adjustability.

Of course the third option is propane, actually a mix of isobutane, butane and propane, considering what happened not 4km from my house last Sunday when it looked like someone bombed central North York, I don't think so......

Yes, hydrocarbon gases are flammable. So are liquid fuels. That's the point of fuels:rolleyes: A small canister of propane is highly unlikely to catch fire and explode. You could play kick the can with a propane canister and never have to worry about puncturing it. If you opened it, the gas would dissipate too quickly to have the kind of explosive power that a huge tank of it can have.

White gas and alcohol, on the other hand, don't dissipate and have far more explosive potential than gases do. If ignited they tend to stick to surfaces...your skin:eek:...and keep delivering heat. Liquid fuels also offer far more likely spill potential than a gas canister. Knock an open one over and the fuel will be right there waiting for a source of ignition. It takes a significant amount of time to evaporate a pool of naphtha or alcohol with an invisible cloud of flammable fuel/air mixture hovering over it the whole time.

Base your choice on convenience, performance and cost...not on the fact that something blew up in your neighborhood. A gasoline tank blew up in Kansas City in June but we all still use gasoline;)

I'm in the white gas camp.I've had a Svea 123 forever,it's old,messy,take a chance on catching crap on fire when you prime it,it's heavy,it's ugly,it's solid brass,you need three hands to light the stupid thing.

Best stove ever.It ALWAYS WORKS,no matter what.It will burn anything you put in it,works in the rain,snow,hail wind.You can adjust the flame so you can cook with it,and lasts forever.I'm keeping mine.

I (and I guess a few others) hadn't thought of the prep time needed.

Alcohol, unpack unit, pour in fuel, light, put on pot, wait for boil.
White Gas, unpack unit, connect fuel tank, pump up pressure, prime stove, light, wait for priming flame to go down, put on wind screen, put on pot, wait for boil.

Looks to be about even time wise..... Now for morning, I guess you could do about half the prep the night before.

I'm thinking of making a cat or soda can stove some time this winter, for spring testing, to see how it does, if it works well in April, then it should do well in summer. If it doesn't work, then I can toss it without a major investment......

White gas or iso-butane stoves put out way more heat than than alcohol stoves. Typical white gas stove is 7500 to 10K BTU, unpressurized alcohol are 3 to 4K BTU. So boil times are longer. It doesn't take that long to set up a gas stove. I can have my peak lit in 30 seconds, if I'm lucky at lights instantly, 90 seconds in a rainstorm. If you're cooking anything more involved than instant oat meal and coffee, you'll want more heat than an alcohol tove puts out.

Thanks, Clifton, for setting me straight. I'm so new, and clueless, about camping I didn't even know what I had!

No worries. I've been backpacking for quite a while, and I've tried just about every packable stove variant there is.



The cans are also very heavy for the amount of energy contained within them, my brother-in-laws 2 burner Coleman camp stove goes through almost one a day, while a single burner should get twice as much, if your on a week long tour, you will end up 3-4 empties weighing down the panniers, for nothing.

3-4 empties for a week? :eek: Sheesh! Do you tour with Wolfgang Puck? I've spent a week in the backcountry and only brought 1 isobutane canister for my Pocket Rocket. When you're only running it for 5 minutes at a time to boil water for a meal, the fuel lasts way longer than a day and a half. Even on "gourmet" weekends where I've run my stove for up to 15 minutes per meal (twice a day) I've only needed a single canister for a 3 day trip.

I (and I guess a few others) hadn't thought of the prep time needed.

Alcohol, unpack unit, pour in fuel, light, put on pot, wait for boil.
White Gas, unpack unit, connect fuel tank, pump up pressure, prime stove, light, wait for priming flame to go down, put on wind screen, put on pot, wait for boil.

Looks to be about even time wise..... Now for morning, I guess you could do about half the prep the night before.

I'm thinking of making a cat or soda can stove some time this winter, for spring testing, to see how it does, if it works well in April, then it should do well in summer. If it doesn't work, then I can toss it without a major investment......

Again, don't discount propane so quickly. Screw the head onto the tank, open a valve and ignite. If you move really slow it might take 30 seconds;) It boils as quickly - if not quicker - than white gas and is far easier to control. With a piezo electric igniter, there's not even a need to carry matches. Pop it and it starts.

I have a white gas stove, the MSR Pocket Rocket. It's the only one I've owned, and it's great.

+100 on the Pocket Rocket. Below freezing it can be "iffy", but it rocks for everything beyond that.

Esbit stove (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81290?CS_003=2477120&CS_010=81290).

Open stove.
Set up windscreen.
Light fuel tab.
Place pot on stove.

No bottles or moving parts involved.

No worries. I've been backpacking for quite a while, and I've tried just about every packable stove variant there is.

3-4 empties for a week? :eek: Sheesh! Do you tour with Wolfgang Puck? I've spent a week in the backcountry and only brought 1 isobutane canister for my Pocket Rocket. When you're only running it for 5 minutes at a time to boil water for a meal, the fuel lasts way longer than a day and a half. Even on "gourmet" weekends where I've run my stove for up to 15 minutes per meal (twice a day) I've only needed a single canister for a 3 day trip.

I'm going by my brother-in-laws Coleman, part of it's him, he is one of those who likes to cook like at home (although he never actually cooks at home -- go figure), You should see the gear he takes for a weekend long trip, fills the entire space inside his car (a Crown Victoria).

For me, I would want some coffee and gruel in the morning, and that's about it, I would also like a fairly leisurely pace, with less then 4 hours a day of saddle time, this gives one the option of starting later, taking ones time breaking camp, riding for a couple of hours, maybe taking a side trip if I see something I want to photograph or expore. Taking a butt break rather then a lunch break, lunch being the occasional hand full of GORP through out the day. Supper might be pasta or boil in the bag type stuff, or going up the road to a diner, I saw along the way. So even on an alcohol stove, boiling water takes about 30-45ml of fuel, so say 100ml per day, so a 1L bottle that is 80% full, would be enough for about 8 days, fuel bottles should never be filled to the brim. MSR recommends 114ml for their white gas stoves per person, per day, so same bottle, filled to the same capacity would be good for 7 days. The bottle, full weighs about 1kg, propane canisters run about 350g, so same 7-8 days would need at least 3 cartridges, total weight 1.05kg. Where there is a weigh saving is that the alki stove weighs about 50g, the white gas (MSR Whisperlite) about 305g, propane (MSR Pocket Rocket) in between at 85g.

White gas or iso-butane stoves put out way more heat than than alcohol stoves. Typical white gas stove is 7500 to 10K BTU, unpressurized alcohol are 3 to 4K BTU. So boil times are longer. It doesn't take that long to set up a gas stove. I can have my peak lit in 30 seconds, if I'm lucky at lights instantly, 90 seconds in a rainstorm. If you're cooking anything more involved than instant oat meal and coffee, you'll want more heat than an alcohol tove puts out.

With the little home made alcohol stove or the brasslite stove I agree with you. You will need more stove if you plan on anything but the dehydrated back pack meals. The trangia and swedish surplus alcohol stoves are different I have fried fish on a trangia stove. I have cooked a squirrel down to where I could pull the meat off the bones with the swedish surplus stove. msr make great stoves but the liquid stove are loud and you just can't walk into any hardware and find fuel for the canister stoves. If you are just going for a couple days to a week the inexpensive one burner propane work pretty good If I were on a tight budget I would go with the swedish surplus alcohol stove or a century trail scout one burner propane if you can spend $100 for a stove there are a lot of neat options out there look on ebay under camping stoves

Esbit stove (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81290?CS_003=2477120&CS_010=81290).

Open stove.
Set up windscreen.
Light fuel tab.
Place pot on stove.

No bottles or moving parts involved.

Just wonder about finding fuel in less then heavily populated areas..... Had a toy steam engine when I was a kid, ran on those tabs, they lasted a fair amount of time, per tab, and could be blown out, and later re-lit.

With the little home made alcohol stove or the brasslite stove I agree with you. You will need more stove if you plan on anything but the dehydrated back pack meals. The trangia and swedish surplus alcohol stoves are different I have fried fish on a trangia stove. I have cooked a squirrel down to where I could pull the meat off the bones with the swedish surplus stove. msr make great stoves but the liquid stove are loud and you just can't walk into any hardware and find fuel for the canister stoves. If you are just going for a couple days to a week the inexpensive one burner propane work pretty good If I were on a tight budget I would go with the swedish surplus alcohol stove or a century trail scout one burner propane if you can spend $100 for a stove there are a lot of neat options out there look on ebay under camping stoves

What's the run time on the Triangia, and how much is the fuel capacity?

What's the run time on the Triangia, and how much is the fuel capacity?

I can't find a listed capacity or burn time. alcohol burns about 15 minutes per oz. Measuring and doing the math shows the burner to hold about 3 oz I have heated tea, got water boiling for cous cous and fried a smallmouth with one filling, the swedish surplus stoves has a bigger burner and the math says they hold around 5 oz I boiled a squirrel for 45 minutes with one of those . Once in a while we "coyote camp" you get a tarp, wool blanket, string, simple stove and pan, cup,spoon, lighter, food wise tea and sugar salt and pepper cous cous or minute rice maybe a little flour. anything else you eat you scrounge out of the woods

I can't find a listed capacity or burn time. alcohol burns about 15 minutes per oz. Measuring and doing the math shows the burner to hold about 3 oz I have heated tea, got water boiling for cous cous and fried a smallmouth with one filling, the swedish surplus stoves has a bigger burner and the math says they hold around 5 oz I boiled a squirrel for 45 minutes with one of those . Once in a while we "coyote camp" you get a tarp, wool blanket, string, simple stove and pan, cup,spoon, lighter, food wise tea and sugar salt and pepper cous cous or minute rice maybe a little flour. anything else you eat you scrounge out of the woods

I assume by oz you mean US fluid ounces? Which would be about 88ml, for a 45 minute burn time, that's not bad, now I just need to find one, and get a price on it, okay MEC has the smaller one for $72 for the kit, and $78 for the larger one..... Might still see about building a cat can or soda can stove, but see about making it a little larger then usual.....

I assume by oz you mean US fluid ounces? Which would be about 88ml, for a 45 minute burn time, that's not bad, now I just need to find one, and get a price on it, okay MEC has the smaller one for $72 for the kit, and $78 for the larger one..... Might still see about building a cat can or soda can stove, but see about making it a little larger then usual.....

yep. Didn't notice you were outside the U.S. Get the tea kettle too if you can . I use the tea kettle a lot. My set is a 27 series mine is old doesn't have the cut out so you can use the gas burner. It is big enough for 2 people I usually leave one of the sauce pans home if I'm by myself I know there are more efficient stoves and powerful stoves made. But to me the simplicity and quietness of a trangia has won me over . I like simple time proven stuff Some of the small L.E.D. lanterns are unbelievable as far as battery life but it just aint camping without my trusty candle lantern When It comes to outdoors sports I tend to run old school. nothing wrong with the new stuff .It is just not me.
Quick stick to you ribs camping recipe:
3/4 cup of water
small pouch of chicken (you can use tuna, ham etc)
3/4 cup minute rice ( cous cous works too)
1 envelope of cream of chicken cup-a-soup
put water and chicken in pan bring to boil
mix in soup and rice remove from heat cover skillet make a good lid
put tea kettle on for tea when your tea is ready
stir rice mixture salt and pepper to taste top with a little parmesan

I haven't toured, but I've backpacked, and have a white gas stove I bought from REI.

With the little home made alcohol stove or the brasslite stove I agree with you. You will need more stove if you plan on anything but the dehydrated back pack meals. The trangia and swedish surplus alcohol stoves are different I have fried fish on a trangia stove. I have cooked a squirrel down to where I could pull the meat off the bones with the swedish surplus stove. msr make great stoves but the liquid stove are loud and you just can't walk into any hardware and find fuel for the canister stoves. If you are just going for a couple days to a week the inexpensive one burner propane work pretty good If I were on a tight budget I would go with the swedish surplus alcohol stove or a century trail scout one burner propane if you can spend $100 for a stove there are a lot of neat options out there look on ebay under camping stoves

Alcohol simply doesn't have the calorific content of other fuels. Motor gasoline is about 115K BTU/us gallon; white gas is a bit higher than that. Ethanol is 85K BTU/gallon (one of the reasons your car gets poorer fuel economy on ethanol containing fuels). Assuming you're accurate about the 15/minutes oz burn time, that's four ounces an hour, or 3.125% of a gallon/hr, which gives an input BTU rating of 2656 BTU/hr. That's a third to a quarter of the capacity of a typical isobutane or white gas stove, and corresponding long boil times. The advantage of an alcohol stove are they're dead cheap, light and simple. It's not that they're particularly good stoves at cooking things, or fuel economy. For anyone that can afford to spend a few bucks on a stove (you can get a reasonable white gas stove for $50 in the US, dunno about canada. A propane one is about the same, but fuel costs are higher.) you can do better than alcohol.

Here are my conclusions:

Okay looking at the pros and cons here of the main types:

Alcohol:
Pros: Stoves can be very cheap, very quiet, very compact, safe, fuel spills are environmentally safe.
Cons: Low power output, slow boil times.

Propane/Butane:
Pros: Stoves are cheap, fast boil times
Cons: Heavy fuel containers, tanks can explode if over heated, used fuel containers require special hazardous waste disposal.

White Gas/Multi-Fuel:
Pros: Fast boil times, fuel is readily available.
Cons: Complex lighting procedure, noisy in operation, some do not allow easy simmering.

Conclusion:

Will make a cat or soda can alcohol stove this winter, and see, if it's too slow, and I think I need something faster, will look into the MSR Whisperlite (even though it sounds like a space shuttle taking off).

Alcohol simply doesn't have the calorific content of other fuels. Motor gasoline is about 115K BTU/us gallon; white gas is a bit higher than that. Ethanol is 85K BTU/gallon (one of the reasons your car gets poorer fuel economy on ethanol containing fuels). Assuming you're accurate about the 15/minutes oz burn time, that's four ounces an hour, or 3.125% of a gallon/hr, which gives an input BTU rating of 2656 BTU/hr. That's a third to a quarter of the capacity of a typical isobutane or white gas stove, and corresponding long boil times. The advantage of an alcohol stove are they're dead cheap, light and simple. It's not that they're particularly good stoves at cooking things, or fuel economy. For anyone that can afford to spend a few bucks on a stove (you can get a reasonable white gas stove for $50 in the US, dunno about canada. A propane one is about the same, but fuel costs are higher.) you can do better than alcohol.

I think it really depends on the type of tour, one is going on, and the intended pace. I like cycling, I like photography, and I like camping, so I really want a little of all three, so pace is likely to be 3-4 hours a day saddle time, with breaks for pix, so maybe 6-7 hours travel time, between camps, since I want a good 8 hours sleep, that leaves 9-10 hours in camp, say an hour or so to make camp, same to break, that leaves 7-8 hours in camp, I think if it takes 15 minutes to boil water, I can live with that.....

Of course if your idea is to go as far as possible each day, with 14 hours saddle time, then you need to be able to make/break camp in 15 minutes or less, so a longer boil time, is going to make things difficult.

Alcohol simply doesn't have the calorific content of other fuels. Motor gasoline is about 115K BTU/us gallon; white gas is a bit higher than that. Ethanol is 85K BTU/gallon (one of the reasons your car gets poorer fuel economy on ethanol containing fuels). Assuming you're accurate about the 15/minutes oz burn time, that's four ounces an hour, or 3.125% of a gallon/hr, which gives an input BTU rating of 2656 BTU/hr. That's a third to a quarter of the capacity of a typical isobutane or white gas stove, and corresponding long boil times. The advantage of an alcohol stove are they're dead cheap, light and simple. It's not that they're particularly good stoves at cooking things, or fuel economy. For anyone that can afford to spend a few bucks on a stove (you can get a reasonable white gas stove for $50 in the US, dunno about canada. A propane one is about the same, but fuel costs are higher.) you can do better than alcohol.



I know there are more efficient stoves and powerful stoves made. But to me the simplicity and quietness of a trangia has won me over


When It comes to outdoors sports I tend to run old school. nothing wrong with the new stuff .It is just not me.

I never said they where the most efficent or hottest. I said they are what I like, if you are one that likes the fastest lightest newest thing out there. the alcohol stove is not the way to go personally if I am some where camping, when I get up inthe morning I don't like the birds chirping drowned out by a jet engine and a couple extra minutes to cook breakfast is not a problem. Plus the fact that alcohol is a lot less toxic to the enviroment or to you if it gets spilled in your pack overrides the little extre time it take to cook with it .

Wogsterca: The key to getting the homemade stove to work efficently is a good wind screen as pointed out alcohol does not have the btu's gas does so you need to use as much of the heat produced as posible
Also reading reading how you plan to tour we would get along fine riding together Every day life is to fast now when I get some rec time I like to slow down and enjoy it:)
Roy

Here are my conclusions:

Okay looking at the pros and cons here of the main types:

Alcohol:
Pros: Stoves can be very cheap, very quiet, very compact, safe, fuel spills are environmentally safe.
Cons: Low power output, slow boil times.

Propane/Butane:
Pros: Stoves are cheap, fast boil times
Cons: Heavy fuel containers, tanks can explode if over heated, used fuel containers require special hazardous waste disposal.

White Gas/Multi-Fuel:
Pros: Fast boil times, fuel is readily available.
Cons: Complex lighting procedure, noisy in operation, some do not allow easy simmering.

Conclusion:

Will make a cat or soda can alcohol stove this winter, and see, if it's too slow, and I think I need something faster, will look into the MSR Whisperlite (even though it sounds like a space shuttle taking off).

I realized that you have issues with propane but don't overstate the issues. Any fuel canister can explode if headed. Even a bottle of alcohol can explode if heated. The solution to this problem is to not heat the container of fuel:rolleyes: The amount of heat needed to explode any container of fuel, however is far above any ambient condition you are likely to ride a bike in. For what it's worth, alcohol usually comes in plastic bottles and is much more likely to leak and catch fire than either of the other fuels.

The fuel containers for small stoves are no heavier than the fuel containers (filled or empty) for liquid fuels. Liquid fuels have a far greater density then butane fuels and, thus, are heavier for a given volume than are liquified gaseous fuels.

Nor do the small fuel canisters require special disposal other then being empty. This is easily accomplished by leaving the stove on the canister and letting the canister vent. If you wish, you can puncture the empty canister. They can then be disposed of with regular refuse. This is only for canisters of less than 4 lbs but you are likely to be carrying very small canisters anyway since those are the ones used for backpacking stoves.

Finally, if you do happen to explode a fuel container...propane, white gas, alcohol, gasoline, etc...., the only fuel in the list that you won't have to worry about secondary effects of flying flaming liquids (flying container shrapnel being the first effect:eek:) is propane. It would make a fireball but not have any liquid that could stick to you to burn.

I never said they where the most efficent or hottest. I said they are what I like, if you are one that likes the fastest lightest newest thing out there. the alcohol stove is not the way to go personally if I am some where camping, when I get up inthe morning I don't like the birds chirping drowned out by a jet engine and a couple extra minutes to cook breakfast is not a problem. Plus the fact that alcohol is a lot less toxic to the enviroment or to you if it gets spilled in your pack overrides the little extre time it take to cook with it .

Wogsterca: The key to getting the homemade stove to work efficently is a good wind screen as pointed out alcohol does not have the btu's gas does so you need to use as much of the heat produced as posible
Also reading reading how you plan to tour we would get along fine riding together Every day life is to fast now when I get some rec time I like to slow down and enjoy it:)
Roy

I find it funny, you get 4 campers at a camp site, one guy comes in with a 15kg backpack, sets up his little tent, and his little stove, a couple of tarps and is happy. Next guy is on a bike, and has 20kg in the panniers, sets up his little tent, and is perfectly happy. Next guy is in a car, and wishes he didn't bring so much stuff, his tent is too big and heavy, the coleman 2 burner is a pain in the butt, and the stupid cooler leaked all over the back seat. The next guy has a 10m long 10,000kg RV, with air conditioning, satellite TV, Internet access and all the comforts of home, he didn't get away from it all, it took it with him, and even though on vacation, still checks his work email 50 times a day. When they all meet at the store, he does nothing but complain about the price of gas, but then at 30L/100km, I'm not really surprised.

In many ways cycle touring forces you to eliminate the stuff you don't need, spending a few days in the woods, the problems of every day life, and the stresses, seem to lose importance. Hearing a wolf howl from across the lake, puts things in perspective, and our plastic world, just doesn't seem important anymore.

Sounds like you have the basic idea down, Wogster.....in that it's about the Journey, and not how fast you do it. ;)

Sounds like you have the basic idea down, Wogster.....in that it's about the Journey, and not how fast you do it. ;)

That's what really gets a lot of touring type holidays, too much to do in too few days, if I am on holidays, I want to relax. Part of the problem in North America is that there are too few days off. In much of Europe, even starting employees get a months vacation, and no month doesn't have at least one other day off. This idea of 2 weeks holidays a year, and having to work "holiday" days, is simply resulting in a population that is stressed out and over worked.

Now another question, for the tourists (and back packers) of the group. What do you consider essential equipment on a tour?

I figure, tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, stove, lamp or flashlight, cooking pot (with lid), eating utensils of some kind, bike shirt and shorts, t-shirt, regular shorts, underwear, socks, long pants, sweater or jacket, , rain gear, bike repair kit. Anything I missed?

Pump!


Now another question, for the tourists (and back packers) of the group. What do you consider essential equipment on a tour?

I figure, tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, stove, lamp or flashlight, cooking pot (with lid), eating utensils of some kind, bike shirt and shorts, t-shirt, regular shorts, underwear, socks, long pants, sweater or jacket, , rain gear, bike repair kit. Anything I missed?

Pump!

Already attached to the bike....

I left the other obvious thing off the list as well, camera and spare battery (d'oh).

Now another question, for the tourists (and back packers) of the group. What do you consider essential equipment on a tour?

I figure, tent, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, stove, lamp or flashlight, cooking pot (with lid), eating utensils of some kind, bike shirt and shorts, t-shirt, regular shorts, underwear, socks, long pants, sweater or jacket, , rain gear, bike repair kit. Anything I missed?

Make things do double duty as much as possible. Regular shorts with zip-off legs are better than just shorts. Camps can get cold at night. A light long sleeve jersey and a bike jacket can be used on the bike and in camp also. Carry stuff that can be used in layers too.

I'd also suggest more than one or even 2 sets of bike clothes. If you carry 3 days worth (and wear one for a total of 4 outfits), you don't have to do laundry as often. I pack each outfit - shorts, jersey, socks, sweat band and, perhaps, one spare set of gloves - in individual ziplocks so that I don't have to dig around for them. Just pull out a bag and you're ready to get dressed. Street/camp clothes go back in their own bag.

For camp clothes, you won't need as many changes as you do bike clothes. You'll only be wearing them for a few hours each day and you can rewear the clothes for several days before you have to change or wash them. If you are traveling in bear country, don't wear the same clothes you cook in to sleep. Bears love those little food flavored monkey sausages:D

You also for got cleaning and toilet supplies. Something to scrub pots with (I use Dobie Pads), dish soap, tooth brush (get a handy camping size one at REI, etc.) and personal washing supplies are needed too. For washing, my daughter turned me on to cleansing cloths. These are little fabric sheets that are presoaped but dry. Moisten them and they foam up real nice and cut grease well. Two or 3 of them are good for a shower and they work in cold water too. There are any number of them out there - ask a woman in your life;) Make sure you get the dry ones that are activated by water. Unless you are drinking it, you don't want to be hucking water around;)

If it's a backpacking trip, I see a stove and cooking gear as being pretty important.

For a bike trip, where you are going to pass by restaurants and gas stations fairly regularly, I would probably skip the stove altogether, but if I were going to bring something, a small, marginal stove would probably do fine as well.

For backpacking, I wouldn't bother with alcohol or fuel tab stoves, and just go ahead and use white gas... the coleman peak 1 that I had didn't require priming, and didnt need to have a separate fuel bottle attached to it... all in one unit.